FITT Old Vs. New Hatchback Challenge

[coryclifford]

Nürb 24 and thus Nürb seasonal. 7:25 in a TS030.

I've been driving and taking notes and realized I'm comparing other tunes to mine. Not the most subjective way to go about this… so I figure if I reset myself by not driving and then only drive other cars that will help me.

 

[fordracer]

Wow quite weekend in here. Everyone busy testing? Watching the 24H of something or another?
Or enjoying family time?

Spent all weekend putting a new cam in a friends '67 Chevelle.

 

[feydrautha]

Went to my weekly local car meet this weekend. This was there.

 

[DolHaus]

Went to my weekly local car meet this weekend. This was there.View attachment 368759

Rare as hens teeth states side these days aren't they?

 

[CSLACR]

Rare as hens teeth states side these days aren't they?

I have never seen any GT-R other than a couple R35's.

 

[feydrautha]

Went to my weekly local car meet this weekend. This was there.View attachment 368759

First 32 I've seen in the flesh. I expect I'll see more now they there legal.

Edit: and I even used to live in LA, where you would expect to see something like this, legal or not.

 

[DolHaus]

I have never seen any GT-R other than a couple R35's.

I saw an R33 yesterday, they're not common but you do see them around from time to time. A friend of mine had an early R33 with a big turbo and somewhere in the region of 800hp that he used as a daily driver

 

[coryclifford]

I'm thought that any Skyline older than the 35 is instantly confiscated and crushed because the authorities gave up on determining which is legally here, and which aren't, as most aren't. Despite the "legal" paperwork, they assume there was some point in time they weren't legal. Maybe that's just here in Ohio. I only see R35s here, and only a few.

 

[feydrautha]

I'm thought that any Skyline older than the 35 is instantly confiscated and crushed because the authorities gave up on determining which is legally here, and which aren't, as most aren't. Despite the "legal" paperwork, they assume there was some point in time they weren't legal. Maybe that's just here in Ohio. I only see R35s here, and only a few.

'89 an '90 R32's are now legal in the US because they are 25 years old.

 

[coryclifford]

Intadesting. 👍

 

[feydrautha]

Intadesting. 👍

These are also starting to show up everywhere.

 

[Pete05]

Playing with setups on the real race car. Just ordered digital scales, a laser leveler and a ride height measuring tool. Getting ready for an open track day in a couple of weeks.

I'm so jealous of what fun you're about to have.
Do the new scales allow you to corner-weight the car? That can be a real eye-opener. Are there rules or regulations around weight placement & distribution in your class?

 

[coryclifford]

Look how far off my Civic was. And how light.

 

[Pete05]

Look how far off my Civic was. And how light.

View attachment 368867

That is massive! Did you get the spanners out to try & remedy the problem?

 

[coryclifford]

Yeah we did. Little (lot) twist of the spring collars and brought it in as best as we could. Hard when there's no weight at all. Unless one corner is an inch higher than everything else. And it did end up that way. All in the name of performance!

 

[Pete05]

Yeah we did. Little (lot) twist of the spring collars and brought it in as best as we could. Hard when there's no weight at all. Unless one corner is an inch higher than everything else. And it did end up that way. All in the name of performance!

Well I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat.
The set-up sheet would've made for interesting reading and probably raised a few eyebrows no doubt

 

[OdeFinn]

Yeah we did. Little (lot) twist of the spring collars and brought it in as best as we could. Hard when there's no weight at all. Unless one corner is an inch higher than everything else. And it did end up that way. All in the name of performance!

Right rear corner higher than others, or broken spring on left front, my wild guesses. Assuming at all ball joints are fine. But probably just bended body

 

[coryclifford]

Car was 100% fine/straight. All new parts underneath. Gutted race car. That's just how far off a Civic is with nothing in it.

 

[DolHaus]

Maybe something to do with the car being designed to primarily suit a right hand drive layout?

 

[coryclifford]

Exactly.

 

[Otaliema]

Maybe something to do with the car being designed to primarily suit a right hand drive layout?

Exactly.

Well it is 190 lbs weighted to the left which with a right hand drive would more or less level out with a avg weight 6'0 male at 180 lbs but what about the rear being weighted to the right?

 

[coryclifford]

I dunno. Diagonals are always weird. Car has zero in it other than what I need. So, seat, wheel, pedals and a stick. No dash... no everything. Literally stripped clean of everything. No doors, no door braces, no door glass, no bumpers, no... everything.

Car was set at an even ride height then we rolled it on the scales. Then picture, then tweaked. So long ago taking pictures of every step of the way and posting on the internet wasn't even heard of yet. I'm just glad I got a picture of the total weight. Full tank too. 12 gallons I think it is. Could drop another 60 some pounds and not fuel starve the thing. Always ran full though. Cause I had no idea how much was in there.

 

[DolHaus]

Mount the fuel tank on the right rear corner maybe? (no idea if thats feasible or safe)

 

[CSLACR]

Well it is 190 lbs weighted to the left which with a right hand drive would more or less level out with a avg weight 6'0 male at 180 lbs but what about the rear being weighted to the right?

Except it's Japanese, so the average weight isn't that high. Nor that tall.

I would bet it's more to do with the thought that wasn't put into performance, or even necessarily anything, but just with where things ended up being located.
I don't know though, I'm very curious how it could be that big in difference at all. Especially being it is left-hand drive, which leaves it running two times the weight on the left front.

Mount the fuel tank on the right rear corner maybe? (no idea if thats feasible or safe)

It looks like it already is...

 

[coryclifford]

Fuel tank is low, central and under the rear passenger seat area. Perfect placement.

I agree, no thought process, because there's no need, however! Honda flipped the motor position to the other side when they went K series. Hard to say why really, but, that puts the motor on the passenger side and trans on the driver side. Opposite.

It's more important to keep things as close to the central yaw point than it is to get weights right. People putting their heavy batteries all the way out in the rear corner would be better off putting them behind the front seat, etc.

 

[DolHaus]

With your left biased weight distribution your central yaw point will be slightly offset, by putting things dead centre you are not negatively affecting this but you are having no positive effect either. It doesn't need to be taken to extremes but a lot of small adjustments can have a big overall effect

Switching the motor position is generally a response to a change of target market. Previously the car was weighted to make it more popular and suited to a RHD market but sales might have been more prosperous in the LHD market and the switch was made to continue the popularity and growth of the product.
FF Hatchbacks are always hard to balance and package because there is very little room for everything and the positioning of the engine and transmission means that the weight is always going to be on one side or the other. Certain things can be used to counteract this bias but its never going to be perfect for both left and right hand drive and its only going to get worse when you remove heavy auxiliary parts, the lighter you make a car the more pronounced these differences become

 

[Motor City Hami]

And also may you avoid shenanigans like what went down with the miatas at last year's SCCA runoffs.

Just saying... I wouldn't want my car disassembled

Take mine apart if they want to. I have a crate motor from Mazda. I don't have a $7,000 pro motor like the guys at the runoffs. Interesting that three of the rules committee members were among the eight found non-compliant.

I'm so jealous of what fun you're about to have.
Do the new scales allow you to corner-weight the car? That can be a real eye-opener. Are there rules or regulations around weight placement & distribution in your class?

I have always had scales to do corner weights, but I had an old system, non digital. They are called Ruggles scales. They use 350 lb bathroom scales and a set of steel bars with wheel plates mounted at the center point to cut the car's weight in half as to not go over the limit of the scales. Anything bigger than a Miata will be over capacity.

I bought a Lonacre digital system. I have wanted one for a long time. More accurate and you do not need to be as precise with the wheel placement. With the Ruggles, you needed to make sure that all four tires were centered very well on the pads.

Look how far off my Civic was. And how light.

View attachment 368867

I would be concerned about numbers that far off on a Honda Civic. I had an older Civic, but I helped a friend with his 1990 and they were never that far off. Is this with your weight in the car? I would suspect a bent suspension arm or a sway bar issue. I have always been taught to disconnect the swaybars when scaling and to use adjustable sway bar end links to adjust to each scale session.

It's your car, so you've been through it. Could just be an odd one from the factory. Is there any way to shim the front sub frame to shift some weight around?

 

[coryclifford]

Everything was fine ish in the end. Again, take everything out of a car and it gets wacky. Not the only Civic we did that is that goofy. Motor and seat and wheel, etc, all at the front left. We considered it normal. Major spring perch tweaks and it was respectable, but I still say it's not as important as keeping all the weight in close to the yaw point as possible. Helped that I had a Honda suspension R&D guy as a roommate.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Everything was fine ish in the end. Again, take everything out of a car and it gets wacky. Not the only Civic we did that is that goofy. Motor and seat and wheel, etc, all at the front left. We considered it normal. Major spring perch tweaks and it was respectable, but I still say it's not as important as keeping all the weight in close to the yaw point as possible. Helped that I had a Honda suspension R&D guy as a roommate.

They tend to corner on three wheels anyway. I never quite figured out how to simulate that on my scales.

 

[coryclifford]

Cool pic yo! Cool car! 85? You know Kevin Ruck? Orange ITA Integra.

You simulate that by lowering the spring til it's on the bump stop. And have a fat friend sit on that corner.