Fix the Gran Turismo CLUTCH movement

[research]

This is going to get very interesting...

Indeed..

Just checked out the MyGranTurismo.net's GT5 Seasonal TT leaderboards...

research vs. mrbasher:

Wait... what?

mrbasher did some GT5 Seasonal TT's, .... but he laid down one hell of a time ... using a clutch..

I see your best time using the clutch (only 1) is around 44,000 overall for TT #33.

So in this case I am inclined to go with his performance, not what you have posted.

Your inclination is based on some fairly poor methodology. You clearly see that I have only completed 1 Time-Trial using clutch in nearly 3 years of playing GT5 (which I am kinda shocked that I even did that much!), and are somehow able to use that 'parameter' to judge the worthiness of my very simple statement concerning the well-known steps of clutch use in GT? Maybe you mistook my calling him bro as condescending? I definitely did not mean it that way. Instead of all that work of digging into my records, you could've just replied here or PM'ed me asking, "are you calling mrbasher out here, bro?"

Feel free to check my TTs there as well..

It's clear that you are very proud of your achievements, but I hope, for your sake, that you're not looking for fullfillment or validation from others concerning these endeavors. That would be a long road to nowhere..

.there are others that make the clutch work too...
...not saying is perfect, it can be unforgiving, but its totally doable...

Ok, so what should our goal be here in this thread. To convince everyone that they just need to 'adapt' and 'make it work'? How does this attitude help the new guys/future GTers? I and many others believe that PD should adjust the darn thing so everyone will benefit, from Pro race drivers to the young tikes trying GT out for the first time.

I think some of you guys really have trouble with that perspective- from the newcomer's POV. We, and especially PD, should be ultra-concerned about the viewpoint of new and future players. Right now a new player tries to use the clutch and basically runs into a brick wall.

Being well-adapted to an ill requirement is no measure of health.

.

Back to ISR's GT6 pre-review show research and ApexVGear refer to...

They didn't explore GT5/GT6 basics like the Tuning Parts' drive train/clutch options.
They also didn't verify calibration of the TH8RS neutral zones using the Thrustmaster utility.

I would assume any "seasoned" pro Sim racer would explore those options if encountering clutch difficulties...

No. These guys are well aware that such adjustments do nothing for the throttle lock-out, which is the absolute crux of the problem with GT gated shifting, followed closely by the Neutral selection that can't be corrected by a quick clutch-dip. These two aspects are far from realistic, super frustrating, and the cause of over 200 posts in this single thread.

 

[TouringBubble]

I agree that this issue is frustrating. I get locked out of gears often when using the clutch on my G25. It usually happens on downshifts. Adding some free travel at the bottom of the pedal, like a real car has, would solve the issue completely for me. If the clutch had about 10% free travel up top, 70% actual engagement and 20% free travel at the bottom, we'd be golden.

 

[CJDA9]

Patch 1.2 is out and they haven't fixed the miss shifting problem. but they fixed the money glitch...

 

[JogoAsobi]

Indeed..



Wait... what?

Your inclination is based on some fairly poor methodology.

Seems I've been researched for the clutch wars...

...on par with the Elizabeth O'Bagy school of methododgy.

 

[JogoAsobi]

Patch 1.2 is out and they haven't fixed the miss shifting problem. but they fixed the money glitch...

Odds were that would be coming...

 

[Griffith500]

Patch 1.2 is out and they haven't fixed the miss shifting problem. but they fixed the money glitch...

That would be patch 1.02

 

[CJDA9]

Tomato, tamato. I wasn't very happy when I typed that.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

2. As usual (in Europe and especially in Germany) I drive a car with manual transmission and ever did so. Automatic transmission is becoming more and more popular but still an expensive upgrade if you buy a new car. I believe that it is the other way round in America (maybe not the cost, but the preferred transmission style).

1. What you said makes no sense to me at all (at least on this topic). When I am not able to engage a certain gear, I have to be in neutral as I pointed already out. Normal road cars have some kind of protection, that if the revs are to high in 2nd, I am not able (except with brutal force) to select the 1st gear. Reverse gear is a different story (when driving forward). And here again: When coming from "neutral" and being not able to select a gear, what do you think where the transmissioan still is? Right, in neutral. What consider you wrong with this statement? And what kind of car is the majority in GT5? Normal road cars...

In GT5 I never experienced problems when de-selecting a gear. It is always when selecting another gear and not properly* pressing the clutch.

*)not properly for the game's expected way of doing it.

2. Ah yes, the US has indeed been plagued with lazy and un-skillful motorists, which is very unfortunate :/
I've been to Germany many times, back when I lived in Sweden.

1. I think there's a tad bit of confusion here. In real life, as I am sure you know, if I'm in 3rd gear, I can (with a bit more force than usual) shove my way into 4th without even touching the clutch pedal. This would not place me in Neutral, but instead, it would force the synchro's to catch up. This causes some serious long term damage to your drive-train, but it is possible. With proper timing and skill, you can even shift gears without the clutch in a safe manner, as I explained in my previous post about the ol' cars. I have a '77 280Z that had a bad clutch, so I was forced to match my revs when driving it to the garage. Again, all of this was done without proper use of the clutch and not once was I ever placed in Neutral. In Gran Turismo, however, if I shoved myself into any gear, it places you in Neutral. If you don't dis-engage the clutch fully, it places you in Neutral. If you flat-shift (clutch in without lifting off the throttle) it places you in Neutral. I do a lot of racing on my free time, so I'm no beginner to driving. These things are not a realistic representation of how things should be.

 

[mrbasher]

These guys are well aware that such adjustments do nothing for the throttle lock-out, which is the absolute crux of the problem with GT gated shifting, followed closely by the Neutral selection that can't be corrected by a quick clutch-dip. These two aspects are far from realistic, super frustrating, and the cause of over 200 posts in this single thread.

Maybe we can look at this another way:

With regard to the neutral selection discussion. In theory, which is apparently what PD used for this, what they've done is correct. Rev-matching and synchros aside, if a real car is shifted such that the clutch is let out too far, too soon, (same with pressing it) it will not go into gear. Unfortunately, the virtual game isn't telling the physical device we are using to shift that this happened. Thus, the shifter continues to tell the game it's in gear. Yes, you can rev-match a manual transmission. Yes, you can force a transmission into gear via synchromesh. However, I feel that is well outside the scope of this issue.

Maybe I'm just stating the obvious here. The discussion of what's real and what is not is somewhat beside the point due to my statements above and yet it seems we keep going back there. The true crux of the issue is that the shifter is allowed to go into gear, even though the transmission in game is not. This mismatch situation has to be handled in some way. PD decided to ignore the fact that the shifter was in gear. Turn 10 decided to simply say "screw it" and allow the gear change to take place, albeit with a grind and minor penalty. Neither one of those is actually real, they can't be, not until someone creates a shifter that physically prevents the gear change until all of the other criteria for a gear change are met.

Somehow, I don't believe simply allowing a user to press the clutch to alleviate the issue will be good enough to prevent threads like these...

So, to distill down these 9 pages, I think the following changes would suffice:

- Relax the timing.
- Let the car go into gear, despite the missed shift. Just penalize the user in some way via momentary lost power or similar. Plus the grinding sound so the user knows they screwed up.

Simply put, the penalty is currently too great. If it weren't such a pain to deal with when it happened, we'd probably hear a lot less about it.

That said, it should require some level of skill to do it properly. Remember, it's not a requirement... People that can't get the hang of it can still use the paddles...

 

[mrbasher]

2. Ah yes, the US has indeed been plagued with lazy and un-skillful motorists, which is very unfortunate :/
I've been to Germany many times, back when I lived in Sweden.

Believe me, I don't like generalizations about the US any more than the next guy, especially by those that don't live here. However... I don't believe that is what he was implying. What he stated is in fact true. Go to most any car dealership and ask them to look at their manual transmission cars. The selection will likely be very slim. I'm sure you are old enough to remember the VW commercials insinuating that VW drivers use manual transmissions... Here's a refresher, because I thought it was funny at the time (I've always driven cars with manual transmissions):



But you know what??? My girlfriend and I just went to a VW dealership not long ago to get a car for her. She only wanted a manual Jetta. They looked at us like we were NUTS! They had ONE, yes ONE manual Jetta. The only car they had with a manual, and there were very few, was the GTi.

Anyhow, I didn't bring this up to argue the point. I just know he didn't mean that the way it may have sounded.

 

[JogoAsobi]

Makes me wonder now if GT is the first exposure to the clutch by many in the USA.
No wonder its broken! It doesn't shift like in those "realistic" Hollywood movies!
Excuse the humor, its mean't in jest, Happy Holidays all!

 

[CJDA9]

2. Ah yes, the US has indeed been plagued with lazy and un-skillful motorists, which is very unfortunate :/
I've been to Germany many times, back when I lived in Sweden.

Makes me wonder now if GT is the first exposure to the clutch by many in the USA.
No wonder its broken! It doesn't shift like in those "realistic" Hollywood movies!
Excuse the humor, its mean't in jest, Happy Holidays all!

Really? You're gonna go there with, Americans can't drive??? I am not speaking for my country here but I know how to drive. Using heel toe and or double clutching for downshifting comes natural to me.

 

[JogoAsobi]

Really? You're gonna go there with, Americans can't drive??? I am not speaking for my country here but I know how to drive. Using heel toe and or double clutching for downshifting comes natural to me.

Excuse the humor, its mean't in jest, Happy Holidays all!

 

[thunderjolt]

I just want to say I wish I had a setup like that...

 

[JogoAsobi]

I just want to say I wish I had a setup like that...

Thank you very much for the compliment, I spent many long hours designing and building it.

 

[CJDA9]

Sorry I had to re read the posts, I just woke up shouldn't be on forums right now.

I have always wanted to make a rig like that, mine is just made out of 1x6's. That's that 80/20 stuff right?

 

[JogoAsobi]

Sorry I had to re read the posts, I just woke up shouldn't be on forums right now.

I have always wanted to make a rig like that, mine is just made out of 1x6's. That's that 80/20 stuff right?

No problem, water under the bridge, happy holidays.

Thanks much, yes its 80/20.

I used a wheel stand and junkyard car seat for a few years before I built it last fall.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

Believe me, I don't like generalizations about the US any more than the next guy, especially by those that don't live here. However... I don't believe that is what he was implying. What he stated is in fact true. Go to most any car dealership and ask them to look at their manual transmission cars. The selection will likely be very slim. I'm sure you are old enough to remember the VW commercials insinuating that VW drivers use manual transmissions... Here's a refresher, because I thought it was funny at the time (I've always driven cars with manual transmissions):



But you know what??? My girlfriend and I just went to a VW dealership not long ago to get a car for her. She only wanted a manual Jetta. They looked at us like we were NUTS! They had ONE, yes ONE manual Jetta. The only car they had with a manual, and there were very few, was the GTi.

Anyhow, I didn't bring this up to argue the point. I just know he didn't mean that the way it may have sounded.

Really? You're gonna go there with, Americans can't drive??? I am not speaking for my country here but I know how to drive. Using heel toe and or double clutching for downshifting comes natural to me.

Calm down bud. I was born and raised in Europe, but I live in the US now and I'm just as much of an American as the next guy. I served my country well and I take part in National SCCA and Club Series Races quite frequently. My implication of lazy and un-skillful motorists was meant to be slightly sarcastic, seeing as how I, too, am a US driver. b2Ntnsjx has a good point, though. Automatic transmissions make up the majority of the road. It would seem as if the Manual is meant more for enthusiasts only, these days. Back to the case at point, much like the engine sounds for GT, the drive-train mechanics seem as if it's a "meh, that's good enough" mentality that manifests it, which seems to be the normal method of evaluation at PD. Hopefully *fingers crossed* this is something that they will reconsider with the new console at hand. Out with the old, in with the new. Until then, happy mis-shifts, everyone!

 

[seth francis]

I agree 100% with the clutch/shifting issues in gt6. I use a g27 with mods to the pedals, wheel, and shifter. I absolutely hate how gt6 forces you to fully depress the clutch (engagement only in the last small bit of pedal travel) the accelerator entirely disengaged (some cars allow you to get away with a tiny bit of throttle input during shifts so long as the clutch is fully depressed). The range of the clutch needs to be the opposite of how it is now, no engagement for first small bit of pedal travel, then gradual engagement, then fully engaged when the pedal still has a small bit of travel left. This will give a little bit of play on each end that will allow quick shifts. Your foot can rest very slightly on the pedal while in gear without inputting clutch engagement, then you can quickly and naturally snap the clutch down, shift, and snap up quickly, much like a real car. There would no longer be the need to push the clutch all the way to the floor, you can get a feel for how far down the pedal needs to go to fully engage the clutch and it will be more natural. Perhaps more importantly there should be no need to release the throttle to shift unless you want to. That way you can leave a small amount of throttle input to keep the rpms up between gears instead of dropping straight to idle like most built cars do in gt6.

 

[Not_A_Guest]

I agree 100% with the clutch/shifting issues in gt6. I use a g27 with mods to the pedals, wheel, and shifter. I absolutely hate how gt6 forces you to fully depress the clutch (engagement only in the last small bit of pedal travel) the accelerator entirely disengaged (some cars allow you to get away with a tiny bit of throttle input during shifts so long as the clutch is fully depressed). The range of the clutch needs to be the opposite of how it is now, no engagement for first small bit of pedal travel, then gradual engagement, then fully engaged when the pedal still has a small bit of travel left. This will give a little bit of play on each end that will allow quick shifts. Your foot can rest very slightly on the pedal while in gear without inputting clutch engagement, then you can quickly and naturally snap the clutch down, shift, and snap up quickly, much like a real car. There would no longer be the need to push the clutch all the way to the floor, you can get a feel for how far down the pedal needs to go to fully engage the clutch and it will be more natural. Perhaps more importantly there should be no need to release the throttle to shift unless you want to. That way you can leave a small amount of throttle input to keep the rpms up between gears instead of dropping straight to idle like most built cars do in gt6.

Way to revive a dead thread.

 

[BWX]

Way to revive a dead thread.

The problem is far from dead.

GT6 might be though..

 

[VBR]

The problem is far from dead.

GT6 might be though..

@Not_A_Guest - THIS!

 

[MOTORTRENDmitch]

How hard can it really be, to code that into the game. If the clutch is pushed in, power doesn't Goto the wheels. If the clutch is let out, power goes to the wheels.

 

[Griffith500]

How hard can it really be, to code that into the game. If the clutch is pushed in, power doesn't Goto the wheels. If the clutch is let out, power goes to the wheels.

That's really easy to do. It doesn't feel very good, though, and would be a step backwards from what we have.

Because the issue isn't actually the clutch itself (beyond a certain asymmetry and excessive length to the response vs. pedal "travel").

 

[Rzeractor]

Don't mean to bump such an old thread, and unsure if it has been mentioned, but has anyone noticed the premium SL55 AMG '02 model does not have this throttle lock out?
Test it yourself, TCS 0, you can spin the wheels off a standing start and change gear, it will engage straight away. How odd.

 

[GTPorsche]

It's technically an automatic, so there's no clutch modeled for it.

 

[gaije]

I havent driven a stickshift irl but shouldnt the car stay parked when the clutch is in and not roll away? Every race i do i have to put a gear in after all the lamps on the top row is on otherwise it will start to roll or pop out of gear

 

[TorqueWrench]

Keeping it simple.

Pressing the clutch pedal disengages the clutch, releasing the clutch pedal engages it.

Pressing the clutch pedal is not like a brake pedal, its more like being in neutral. Press the brake pedal to keep from rolling.

 

[Griffith500]

It's technically an automatic, so there's no clutch modeled for it.

Yep, I think you can direct select using the H-pattern without ever touching the clutch with that car. Like isiMotor games...

I havent driven a stickshift irl but shouldnt the car stay parked when the clutch is in and not roll away? Every race i do i have to put a gear in after all the lamps on the top row is on otherwise it will start to roll or pop out of gear

You could try sitting with the clutch in and holding the handbrake on so your right foot is free to cover the throttle only. Timing the handbrake release relative to dumping the clutch is crucial: too early and you get penalised, too late and you bog down. At least, I found the coordination hard.

 

[gaije]

Yep, I think you can direct select using the H-pattern without ever touching the clutch with that car. Like isiMotor games...

You could try sitting with the clutch in and holding the handbrake on so your right foot is free to cover the throttle only. Timing the handbrake release relative to dumping the clutch is crucial: too early and you get penalised, too late and you bog down. At least, I found the coordination hard.

Thanks i will try that.

Keeping it simple.

Pressing the clutch pedal disengages the clutch, releasing the clutch pedal engages it.

Pressing the clutch pedal is not like a brake pedal, its more like being in neutral. Press the brake pedal to keep from rolling.

The reason i was woundering was becuase the two vehicles with manual trannys is a old tractor and an atv where both was standing still when clutch was down