Flaws of the tyre model simulation

[kevlar_hybrid]

Another point of race driving in general is you shouldn’t be coasting or you are losing time.

I agree in race driving, but this is the problem, this is not race driving. If you can, watch Kie25 this week at Brands. Just watch his pedal inputs. It's gas -> heavy brake -> massive long coast period into the corner where tyre scrub is more efficient than brakes and gives you turn in -> then full gas at apex.

So yeah, not quite how Senna describes things, which is the point. The physics don't reward proper driving, the fast guys are playing this as they would play any game, finding how the game allows speed and doing that. This has a low relation to how actual driving or physics are though.

 

[Lazybike]

I agree in race driving, but this is the problem, this is not race driving. If you can, watch Kie25 this week at Brands. Just watch his pedal inputs. It's gas -> heavy brake -> massive long coast period into the corner where tyre scrub is more efficient than brakes and gives you turn in -> then full gas at apex.

So yeah, not quite how Senna describes things, which is the point. The physics don't reward proper driving, the fast guys are playing this as they would play any game, finding how the game allows speed and doing that. This has a low relation to how actual driving or physics are though.

And in my opinion the game is better for it...it's a level playing field, it just comes down to acquiring the right skill set and applying it.

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

And in my opinion the game is better for it...it's a level playing field, it just comes down to acquiring the right skill set and applying it.

I'm with you, as a gamer. But then they should really drop "The Real Driving Simulator" stuff for everyones benefit. It's like a nicely done Ridge Racer.

 

[Krypton78]

Shouldn't the thread title be either

... of the tyre model

or

... of the tyre simulation

rather then
... of the tyre model simulation?

 

[Haitauer]

I do think that races with fixed settings and BOPs brings unpredictable car behavior because of the fixed differential setting.

This

Ive been wondering since the beginning why they use such bad setups in BOP fixet setups. Especially the differential. Only thing i can think of, is that its easier to balance the cars with inferior setups than make the slow cars faster. Also drivetrain differences are easier to handle.

Throw any praiano tune to a cars (preferably one of his non-alien tunes) and it feels like driving a different physics model.

 

[BreakerOhio]

I agree in race driving, but this is the problem, this is not race driving. If you can, watch Kie25 this week at Brands. Just watch his pedal inputs. It's gas -> heavy brake -> massive long coast period into the corner where tyre scrub is more efficient than brakes and gives you turn in -> then full gas at apex.

So yeah, not quite how Senna describes things, which is the point. The physics don't reward proper driving, the fast guys are playing this as they would play any game, finding how the game allows speed and doing that. This has a low relation to how actual driving or physics are though.

Bingo! That last paragraph explains it perfectly.

I have to adapt to this game style of driving. Watch senna, best motoring, drift king drive street cars, none of them drive the way gts requires for time attack. I know my real world driving techniques reward me in speed and time and this depiction of it is a games method to make a fair and simplified esport game to work for a larger audience to operate.

I am noticing they are slowly introducing it back into the physics with updates, i cross it fingers they will do it right i hope! , they have to do justice for drivers type of cars, nsx and s2000.

Updated: I just played the latest 1.28 update, im very happy! The rwd cars are feeling better to drive. Thanks PD for this update. The LSD and tires work much better now. I had faith but also understood the reason this was delayed.

 

[Lord Protector]

1 and a half year after the game’s release... ford focus st (with stock road tyres) failing to climb a mild uphill...

 

[ARTAsean]

1 and a half year after the game’s release... ford focus st (with stock road tyres) failing to climb a mild uphill...

You know that’s a 60 degree bank right? A FF car probably couldn’t climb a grade 1/2 that steep.

 

[Hoopzah]

No non 4WD car could do that in 1st gear.. except my SAAB (joke). She's been up a 42°grade in Maryland, but it wasn't from a stop. Thats that's just silly

 

[Lord Protector]

You know that’s a 60 degree bank right? A FF car probably couldn’t climb a grade 1/2 that steep.

Okay... what you don’t see is... It goes downwards ffs you can see I use 1/5th of the power and tyres go spinning like crazy and the car moves downwards.... and when using TCS it can climb it NO PROBLEM. Issue isn’t the angle, it’s the tyre model.

 

[Vegard]

Okay... what you don’t see is... It goes downwards ffs you can see I use 1/5th of the power and tyres go spinning like crazy and the car moves downwards.... and when using TCS it can climb it NO PROBLEM. Issue isn’t the angle, it’s the tyre model.

It looks more like a lack of friction due to the steep incline combined with GT Sport's clumsy auto clutch modulation.
The TC negates the auto clutch problem and gets the car moving but ultimately surrenders to Newton's laws of mechanics.

Remember, when starting on a steep incline you need to overcome both the inertia of the car and gravity.
And in an FF you'll have very little traction due to the fact that most of the weight is transferred to the rear.

 

[Lord Protector]

It looks more like a lack of friction due to the steep incline combined with GT Sport's clumsy auto clutch modulation.
The TC negates the auto clutch problem and gets the car moving but ultimately surrenders to Newton's laws of mechanics.

Remember, when starting on a steep incline you need to overcome both the inertia of the car and gravity.
And in an FF you'll have very little traction due to the fact that most of the weight is transferred to the rear.

have you ever driven a car? seriously... you would know that with 1/5 of the gas pedal the car would probably stall. it would definitely not spin the tires and even if it did, it would certainly not go downwards...

it is like this because there the tires do not want to regain grip once they lose it... and that is why the car goes up, when using TCS, because it prevents the tires from spinning all the time.

 

[Vegard]

have you ever driven a car? seriously... you would know that with 1/5 of the gas pedal the car would probably stall. it would definitely not spin the tires and even if it did, it would certainly not go downwards...

Yes, I've driven quite a few during the last 25 years. I'm also fairly well educated in classical mechanics and trigonometry.
I'm making an educated guess here, a quick approximation. I haven't done any exact calculations so I might be wrong.

The question of whether the car would stall, break traction or simply drive up the incline depends on COF, normal force, wheel torque, mass of the vehicle, angle of the incline and probably a few others that I'm forgetting.

Have you done any calculations?

 

[Lord Protector]

Yes, I've driven quite a few during the last 25 years. I'm also fairly well educated in classical mechanics and trigonometry.
I'm making an educated guess here, a quick approximation. I haven't done any exact calculations so I might be wrong.

The question of whether the car would stall, break traction or simply drive up the incline depends on COF, normal force, wheel torque, mass of the vehicle, angle of the incline and probably a few others that I'm forgetting.

Have you done any calculations?

No calculations, just experience from motorsport...

 

[Vegard]

No calculations, just experience from motorsport...

Extreme hillclimbing I presume?

May I ask what your hypothesis on the tyre model is?

 

[Lord Protector]

Extreme hillclimbing I presume?

May I ask what your hypothesis on the tyre model is?

i has nothing to do with extreme hillclimbing... SSRX's highly banked corner was used to demonstrate the problem with the tyre model... i demonstrated it in the OP months ago, on a straight line with no elevation... i already explained what is the problem, what else do you want?

 

[Groundfish]

i has nothing to do with extreme hillclimbing... SSRX's highly banked corner was used to demonstrate the problem with the tyre model... i demonstrated it in the OP months ago, on a straight line with no elevation... i already explained what is the problem, what else do you want?

Nice job man!
I always get annoyed by that facet of the tire model when I am trying to climb the wall at SSRX in my Focus st.
The tire model also had a few probs when I was running Fisherman’s Ranch in the Formula car.
Coming out of tight turns it’s very difficult to get traction. Doesn’t PD know how sticky those tires are irl.
It’s important to spend hours and hours doing things like trying to climb walls in a focus st. Time well spent!

 

[Vegard]

i has nothing to do with extreme hillclimbing... SSRX's highly banked corner was used to demonstrate the problem with the tyre model... i demonstrated it in the OP months ago, on a straight line with no elevation... i already explained what is the problem, what else do you want?

I want to know why you're so sure that it's only due to the tyre model.

A front wheel drive car sitting on a 45-60 degree incline will have very little weight on the front tyres.
When you try to launch a car sitting on a 45-60 degree incline you're going to get even less weight on the front tyres.
With so little weight you get very little grip.

With the clumsy clutch modulation, turbo torque, a short(ish) 1st gear, and with very little grip available to overcome the inertia and gravitational pull you're going to struggle to launch it without slipping. I agree that the dynamic friction is less than perfectly modeled, but I don't think your test results can be attributed to that alone.

 

[Hoopzah]

Try it in 2nd or even 3rd without TCS.. works fine for me. Just as real life, you can't expect to climb a steep grade like that in 1st gear with crap tires in a car that only pulls the front wheels from a complete stop.

 

[Knukel]

ford focus st (with stock road tyres) failing to climb a mild uphill...

Have you tried this test in other games like AC (Monza oval) or PCars2? Temped to test this in AC later today...

 

[Lord Protector]

Have you tried this test in other games like AC (Monza oval) or PCars2? Temped to test this in AC later today...

I haven’t. I’m tempted to do it in my real car... and I think I will, it’s the only way to prove my point right now, as some folks over here think this behavior is normal

Oh and @Groundfish , I talked about the issue for about an hour with PD directly, on two occasions actually they are well aware of it, unfortunately the issue seems to be more complex.

 

[Groundfish]

@Lord Protector
Hmm you’d think wall climbing in the Focus st would be a high priority.
It’s an important part of the race.

 

[Vegard]

I’m tempted to do it in my real car... and I think I will, it’s the only way to prove my point right now, as some folks over here think this behavior is normal

I think you're underestimating how steep that banking is.

 

[Lord Protector]

I think you're underestimating how steep that banking is.

And I think you’re overestimating how much traction is loss during wheelspin on a track-grade asphalt.

 

[zzz_pt]

It's not problem with the banking or the focus. Low speed grip (pretty obvious in tight corners like T2 at Maggiore or Dunlop at Suzuka) has been an issue on GT Sport since day one. I haven't played in over a year and this week I thought about doing some dailies so I came here. I was hoping PD had improved the situation tbh, with the FIA live events and stuff.

I guess GTS is just another game and this (low speed grip) is part of it by now.

 

[superwally]

Oh and @Groundfish , I talked about the issue for about an hour with PD directly, on two occasions actually they are well aware of it, unfortunately the issue seems to be more complex.

Then why beat a dead horse? Finding the worst-case-scenario to prove a flaw that you know PD is unlikely to correct makes very little sense. You and several other frequent posters on this site are fairly well off the rails with PDOCD. What's PDOCD? It's when you just can't turn on the game and enjoy what it has to offer, without focusing compulsively and obsessively on what PD gets wrong. Most of us know the game is flawed, but somehow we manage to enjoy it. Life goes on.

 

[Groundfish]

It's not problem with the banking or the focus. Low speed grip (pretty obvious in tight corners like T2 at Maggiore or Dunlop at Suzuka) has been an issue on GT Sport since day one. I haven't played in over a year and this week I thought about doing some dailies so I came here. I was hoping PD had improved the situation tbh, with the FIA live events and stuff.

I guess GTS is just another game and this (low speed grip) is part of it by now.

PD actually improved the games grip and physics quite substantially over the course of several updates within the last few months.
I recommend it highly. It’s much better than at release with the low speed balance issues on hairpins mr gr3. That was fixed a long time ago. At release t1 Nurb gp was unprovable in certain cars The physics are quite good now minus pinball collisions.
I only play on wheel tho.
Pd struck a great balance physics wise imo.

 

[jjaisli]

Okay... what you don’t see is... It goes downwards ffs you can see I use 1/5th of the power and tyres go spinning like crazy and the car moves downwards.... and when using TCS it can climb it NO PROBLEM. Issue isn’t the angle, it’s the tyre model.

The relationship between the tire contact patch and the road, and all of the factors in between (friction, temperature, compound, weight, pressure, delamination, flex, lateral load, tire size, width, profile, etc) is highly complex. And probably far beyond the capabilities of the PS4 (at least as far as making those calculations on the fly, and doing so accurately, as the relationship between all of those is constantly changing and each affects the other). That said, as somebody who is NOT Fernando Alonso, nor a trained engineer, but who HAS driven over 7,000-km on various real world racing circuits, tire modeling is probably the single weakest link in every sim or simcade I've ever played. And it's a particularly weak point of GT in my opinion.

Tests like these are not very scientific but they highlight some very basic flaws in the physics engine.

 

[CallawaySS]

The accelerations seem to be more realistic now. Or maybe the guys in this video know how to launch cars properly? Either way, I think it's close to reality

 

[Scaff]

The accelerations seem to be more realistic now. Or maybe the guys in this video know how to launch cars properly? Either way, I think it's close to reality

I'd disagree. I just done a load of standing start testing in GTS, PC2 and AC, and in this regard GTS has gone backwards over past builds (oddly as the rest of the physics engine has got better.

Once again you need a car with a massive amount of torque to get any step out off the line from a standing start.