FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Saidur_Ali]

PD not having man power is not our issue, but their issue it's not like these games haven't made them tens of millions of dollars. Especially seeing as it is one of the best if not the best selling game on any sony platform today (well we'll see about PS3). I did the fact checking on the blackouts and they were rolling for up to three hours till April, so you have a point, but if you look at my post I say you can't blame them on all updates like some fans are trying to do. Also if you did fact checking either Sony is really tight fisted or you just don't realize how much money they have. They're reported to be worth more than Microsoft, so how is that Sony is made out to be weak compared to microsoft by GT fans. Furthermore, also look at the sales report, GT5 dropped off as where other GT series games were still quite strong, a name does sell just look at first week sales alone then watch how quickly sales fell off.

Also yes making more than one game is more difficult I agree with you there to an extent. Your solution is a good one and I agree it too works out. I just don't see why GT fans can't just say "yes GT5 is the bad egg in the series but let's not detract that from everything else GT has done".

Microsoft is a lot richer than Sony. Sony have more range and have higher revenue but it is no good if there profit is many times less than Microsoft. That gives companies like Microsoft the power to outspend or buy out companies. Look at all the timed exclusivity they buy and the money they spend on marketing games such as Halo. However the main reason why PD doesn’t probably expand is there seems to be a cap for a certain size for all the top first studios. PD will expand to about 200 people, the same with all the other top Sony studios.

Anyway T10 have more car modellers than PD have working on the entire game which includes car and track modelling. Another way to put in perspective is put 3 top PC sim game companies together with PD and they will still have less people working on the game than T10 did for FM4 if you assume average size of a PC sim developer is around 80. It is amazing that PD can still compete with T10 on physics, track and car quality but I expect the gap in content to grow in favour of FM if it continues at this rate.

There are a lot less PS3 owners than PS2 and the American market was really strong for GT before with the PS2. I think it is doing well as it is still the biggest selling PS exclusive and we will know in December how much more they have sold. FM4 sales don’t look to be that good, about 4 times less than GT5 week 1 by the looks of it but I guess it is steady progress over FM3 but I have a feeling it won’t sell as well on the long run as FM3 did. GT5 didn’t have as much marketing going up towards launch as FM4 as far as I remember here in the UK too. I don’t think GT5 is a bad egg in the series, it has the most advanced physics for the series to date and has many new features in the game that I’m sure many people enjoy. We the gamers win because T10 are creating a new standard in terms of numbers working on a racing game. If PD expand, we will get even better value for money.

From what I've seen in this thread it's the accepted norm by the majority of posters to do so with GT. Ain't that double standards?

This. I find it amazing the uproar one GIF created of a small clip of the new DLC Spa track created. The same members who criticized the person posting it did not seem to mind members and themselves trying to make this thread a photomode gallery for FM4, and saying comments such as end thread and what not because they thought FM4 looked so much better. If you however try and add balance to the thread, they will post the worst quality standard cars and represent them as the standard in the whole game. If anything good is talked about GT it is shot down in numbers as it is not important due to it not being consistent enough. If anything bad about FM is said it does not matter because it is consistently good in their opinion. Could be a coincidence the majority of posters on this thread are Forza fans . The way the statistics presented as well, I could say FM4 has 95% of cars modelled not to the highest level in the game; will that get people attacking me on here? Sure the standard is better but look at the percentage .

 

[UKMikey]

Since tis is a comparison of two games with adaptive AI it'd be interesting to compare the different driver levels used in GT5 and FM4 here. The fact the music is playing in the Forza example makes me wonder whether it's the retail game or merely the demo being used here.Spec 2.0 certainly seems to have improved the GT zombie cars though.

 

[prymet1me]

I feel that GT5 is an embarrassment to the GT franchise it is a rushed game and incomplete. The game is a bad jack of all trades and a master of a few premium car models. The Forza series has continued to build upon what they started and is the best console racer at this time. I ask that you all respect my opinion.

 

[PzR Slim]

This. I find it amazing the uproar one GIF created of a small clip of the new DLC Spa track created. The same members who criticized the person posting it did not seem to mind members and themselves trying to make this thread a photomode gallery for FM4, and saying comments such as end thread and what not because they thought FM4 looked so much better. If you however try and add balance to the thread, they will post the worst quality standard cars and represent them as the standard in the whole game. If anything good is talked about GT it is shot down in numbers as it is not important due to it not being consistent enough. If anything bad about FM is said it does not matter because it is consistently good in their opinion. Could be a coincidence the majority of posters on this thread are Forza fans . The way the statistics presented as well, I could say FM4 has 95% of cars modelled not to the highest level in the game; will that get people attacking me on here? Sure the standard is better but look at the percentage .

Some of us critique both games. Some of us give GT5 it's dues when it deserves them (premium cars and tracks, day/night, weather, some aspects of the physics, etc.) in the same way that we will criticise FM4 when it deserves it. Don't tar everyone with the same brush. It would still appear that some in this thread do not understand that posters like me are fans of racing games not fans of one franchise in particular. Being a fan one one game and not being a fanboy are not mutually exclusive.

I love playing GT5 in my league on a Monday night, the triple screen set up, premium cars and tracks that we usually race with and excellent physics really do make for a great experience and I have lots of fun. FM3 didn't stack up in the physics and looks department even though in many respects it was a better game as a whole. FM4 has significantly raised the bar in the looks department but still doesn't quite match up to GT5 at it's best. However, the physics really have reached the same level as GT5 and in some instances surpassed it (read Scaffs most recent comments in this thread on it, he's much better at conveying it than I). Put that together with FM4 being an even better game than FM3, with the inclusion of rivals mode and the return of public lobbies and the result really is a remarkable game that, I believe, GT5 really can't match upto.

 

[Ooze27]

Since tis is a comparison of two games with adaptive AI it'd be interesting to compare the different driver levels used in GT5 and FM4 here. The fact the music is playing in the Forza example makes me wonder whether it's the retail game or merely the demo being used here.Spec 2.0 certainly seems to have improved the GT zombie cars though.

It doesn't seem the demo man, the demo is the Alps track, this one is Suzuka if i'm not mistaken.The problem with this videos is that they are usually exploits, people find a way to trigger it and just record it for fun or something.Same happened when GT5 came out, some guy parked a car in a corner, the AI went insane, he did the same in F3, the AI avoided the car.Not 1 month later, another guy made a video with the exact opposite behaviour.This seems to be one of those videos.I noticed that he hit the brakes at a certain point, the AI starts going insane.On the 3rd take especially, when the most erratic behaviour occurs he always has the brakes applied from the beggining.

 

[badeddy]

@ jdm.

You try so hard to act un-biased. Posting a video of ai in a gt5 vs fm4, you are either acting dense, or passive aggresive. I would go with the latter, but you also mentioned the sounds in gt5 being real good. So i guess it can go either way.

See, i am biased. I can admit it. I thought gt5 sucked when i first got it. Kept playing because of people like you saying its so awesome. Patches, and updates came out with seasonals, and again i picked it up. Again scratched my head asking myself, am *i* just not getting it? I kept going...wondering when the rolling starts would stop and actually have a proper start. Asking why is this car a premium and this one not? Asking why i cant tune simple critical things like tire pressure, and upgrade brakes. Still i stuck with it, because online is where it is at. Ok. Lagfest, bumpercars, and everyone has the same car as far as looks. You know what...ill end it there. If i write everything that is wrong with gt5, i will be up for at least 3 hours.

Case in point. I dont like gt5. 98% sure i wont pick it up again. I was tempted by the 2.0 and dlc, but fm4 is here now, and as far as fun, pysics, graphics across the board, sound, online, and just over all package, it has stomped out any feelings of giving gt5 another go.

Thank goodness.

this^^^^^

 

[Brend]

One thing i'll never understand is why FM4 fans can go all out criticizing GT but when a GT fan criticizes FM4 it's the end of the freakin' world.


For what it's worth, I like F4...just not as much as GT5.


>opinions

 

[GTForzafan]

"Now having said that, I don't see anything ugly in GT5. "
how can even mods, say that this a matter of opinion ?
When a game, has PS2 textures on a current console generation ?
This isn't preference, it's the facts...
Every game has flaws....
And don't even get me started with the Sound issue, some of the arguments are trully hilarious....
If some Like ps2 textures on a Ps3 game, that's fine... but that doesn't change the fact that is poor and sometimes ugly....

To some this is religion... Gt became more than a game, it's a religion...

 

[PzR Slim]

One thing i'll never understand is why FM4 fans can go all out criticizing GT but when a GT fan criticizes FM4 it's the end of the freakin' world.


For what it's worth, I like F4...just not as much as GT5.


>opinions

The exact same thing can be aimed at fans of GT5 as well. There are people from both camps in this thread who are like that and none of the them do the discussion any good.

 

[ItsHim]

If some Like ps2 textures on a Ps3 game, that's fine... but that doesn't change the fact that is poor and sometimes ugly....

Have you ever played GT4 in 1080i? I have.

GT5 was never ever that last gen at all. Additionally, visuals have yet improved again with Spec2.

So do get your facts straight.

 

[PzR Slim]

Have you ever played GT4 in 1080i? I have.

GT5 was never ever that last gen at all. Additionally, visuals have yet improved again with Spec2.

So do get your facts straight.

Why try and defend the indefensible? We all know that most of the standards cars look very bad when compared to premium cars and cars from other games in this generation. No matter how much you protest that is not going to change.

 

[cuco33]

Anyway, main reason for PD taking time to release new content goes back to man power.

Search for my post as I already commented on this, and I actually believe to you the last time you stated something related to this.

It is PD and Sony's fault for resource management. They took on WAY too many projects, related both directly and indirectly to GT5 development, and never outsourced nor increased their staff. 5 years from last GT game, 60+million in costs and we got 80% ported game with revamped physics and gorgeous premiums.

This is a company that produced Sony's biggest and most successful video game franchise to date, the most successful racing game franchise ever, and most successful franchise with each generation of Playstations. It is PD's fault and PD's fault alone on how they handled the gaming development. Sony's inclusion also helped make a mess of development.

 

[cuco33]

It did but still is AI is AI while it improved they still can get improvements.

It is, but the AI in World Tour mode, set to easiest difficulty, in events list, etc all behave differently. We don't know which mode the video had Forza set to nor the difficulty and I'm going to make an assumption of easiest AI difficulty in World Tour mode. It still does not explain why in all the Forza 4 clips the user was braking before the AI reaches the corners and why I think this, in certain modes, causes the AI to get a little wonky. I'm assuming here, but the video is fixed on purpose by some GT fan purposely defending and creating flamebait.

The AI in GT5 spec2 looks much improved but these are standing stills. I have not driven GT5 in spec2 long enough yet to make a comment if the AI has been improved where you will see it best and most, during actual racing.

 

[JDMKING13]

It is, but the AI in World Tour mode, set to easiest difficulty, in events list, etc all behave differently. We don't know which mode the video had Forza set to nor the difficulty and I'm going to make an assumption of easiest AI difficulty in World Tour mode. It still does not explain why in all the Forza 4 clips the user was braking before the AI reaches the corners and why I think this, in certain modes, causes the AI to get a little wonky. I'm assuming here, but the video is fixed on purpose by some GT fan purposely defending and creating flamebait.

The AI in GT5 spec2 looks much improved but these are standing stills. I have not driven GT5 in spec2 long enough yet to make a comment if the AI has been improved where you will see it best and most, during actual racing.

Did you read what I wrote I was talking about the AI in GT5 improvement but still needed more improvement, also I didn't even comment on the FM4 AI because I don't care for AI I rather race people. 👍 All I said is I like the way the cars dodge the driver, for me I was pointing out the sounds on the fly by which I was impressed by GT5 and I was impressed on how FM4 sound way better than 3 in this situation.

 

[PzR Slim]

Did you read what I wrote I was talking about the AI in GT5 improvement but still needed more improvement, also I didn't even comment on the FM4 AI because I don't care for AI I rather race people. 👍 All I said is I like the way the cars dodge the driver, for me I was pointing out the sounds on the fly by which I was impressed by GT5 and I was impressed on how FM4 sound way better than 3 in this situation.

I agree with you about AI. It just doesn't compare to online racing against others. So I think we could all sit here and argue which game had the better AI until we are blue in the face but it would all be moot as none of it would compare to online against others.

 

[GTForzafan]

"Have you ever played GT4 in 1080i? I have.
GT5 was never ever that last gen at all. Additionally, visuals have yet improved again with Spec2."

So, the Spec 2 update, magically changed the textures of the standard tracks ? and Updated the standard cars textures....

So do get your facts straight.

Go check the details of the Spec 2.0 update.... https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-5-spec-2-0-now-available/

Spreading lies, won't work....

 

[Vaxxtx]

👎

Playing the man and not the ball leads to yellow cards in football games, and this forum is no different in it's philosophy. Argue the point, not the person.

That goes for everyone.

Although there is no yellow cards in my kind of football, just yellow flags, and playing the man is also recommended....point taken. 👍

The reason some peoples opinions regarding either game are brushed off or easily attacked more than others comes down to a few reasons...for me at least:

1. A person that has never played FM, and just give opinions based off videos. I find this one gets attacked the most, and to be honest, should.

2. A person that says they love both because it makes their opinions sound more unbiased, but continues to take jabs are FM, in a way you can tell they have not really played more than a demo of the game.

3. People who skim over facts and details about both games, but then go into the "soul" of GT5, and how much Kaz "has passion", is the reason GT5 is better than FM. There is nothing spiritual about PD or Sony, or MS, or T10. There are all companies making games for.....yeah profit. To make green. To make papers. To make some cheese. Yeah, even Kaz does it for the money.

Those are just an example of why some opinions in this discussion dont get taken serious...again for me at least.

 

[Tenacious D]

I discount his opinion because he holds that opinion whilst finding every possible way to criticise FM. The double standards he employs are some of the biggest that can be found in this discussion. I have good reason for discounting his opinion. He is fully entitled to his opinions by all means. However, by holding such opinions he can't expect his views to hold any weight when they are so far out of the accepted norm by the majority of posters from both sides of the debate.

If you guys wouldn't lie about what I post, I would consider your opinions to have some merit. I DO NOT do nothing but criticize Forza. I do have good things to say about it. But because I don't worship your little green idol with the lot of you in this section, as with many of us, I'm the big bad biased fanboy.

Okay, I was a little carried away last night because of the extreme favor shown a game that can do no wrong here. Or at least anything wrong to really post about with most of you. Sure, there are some cruddy models in GT5. Yes, I'd rather have a thousand Premium cars and 70 tracks. But As I said in my previous post. SONY isn't rich and operating at a huge profit like a certain monopoly. SONY can't afford to hire 250 additional people to work on Gran Turismo. Do you know what that would cost just in payroll, assuming they were getting just $25K a year? 6.25 million dollars. That's not benefits, that's not the extra cost of buying the equipment and software to do their jobs, or leasing the space where they can work. And then there's what MS got with those 400 plus workers they hired. In two years, this constellation of studios produced...

90 new cars. How many new tracks, 4? Do I recall people accusing Polyphony of being lazy? Why, yes I do.

Some of you guys won't be honest in your criticism of GT5, or at least even handed. More than once I've seen Standard cars in race that I forgot were Standards, and was surprised when I realized it in replays. Unretouched unaffected pics of a good number of Standards look almost as good as Premiums. There is a whole section of nothing but Standard car pics in the GT5 Photo Mode board, and most of the unfixed pics look stellar. Yes, I said I want more Standard cars and tracks. Racing those cars on those tracks is sure a lot more fun than not racing them, I assure you.

LMSCorvette is vexed because I defend GT5. But somehow, he doesn't have a problem in the world with the FDF people here pulling out any extreme example to prove in their posts that Forza 4 is God's gift to racing games.

Look, there really are issues with F4. I haven't touched anything of the game yet other than saving replays - with a number of failures, one I had to try four times, and importing a vinyl group on my Trueno - it's a mess. And racing. But just racing is a chore. Forza just isn't like other games. If you aren't familiar with its flavor of physics, you have to get schooled on what the game wants or you aren't going to do well in C Class or above, except maybe with a hand controller or all the assists turned on. It's very different from every PC sim I've played, where I feel remotely competent when I grab the wheel controller I happen to have handy. I don't have to import something special - and pricey, and delayed - from Germany just to have a good wheel. Maybe the Fanatec is necessary to really feel what the car is doing. But if that's true, there's something wrong with a game when you need to import a boutique wheel which doesn't even come with pedals!

And stock cars that sound like race cars? Oh that's awesome sauce. Meanwhile the other rides sound like vacuum cleaners...

It is funny, my first few moments of Forza 4 firing up - after doing a day's worth of homework getting the files in F3 ready to import. Gah, what an ordeal. But it started, Jeremy Claxon blathered for a minute, and then I was thrown without warning into that introductory race with the Ferrari. And darn it, an automatic tranny. But it was a blast! It handled like a dream, and even though I wasn't familiar with the Alps course, I was flying past bots left and right, and won handily. THIS was awesome sauce indeed. My bro and I admired the scenery and the roar of the car, watching the replay for a few laps before he nudged me into starting my career. F Class of course, but both games make you start at the bottom and work your way up.

And then as I began to climb in classes, things weren't so rosy. The car communicates with me poorly, and the driver views aren't comfortable. The cars are unstable with the aids off, very unstable. The tendency to oversteer from the first two games was back. They wanted to keep turning on their own, and I had to jerk the wheel to break the spell. The bots were becoming very rowdy, banging into me a lot, and braking too hard in turns. You'd better like the damage modeling because you'll see a lot of it. Just as in F1 and 2, the job of the bots behind the leader seemed to be there simply to hold me up and make life as difficult as possible. Yep, this is Forza...

Anyway, this has become just another Forza board, so it's no surprise how only true believers are welcome around here.

 

[Tornado]

But As I said in my previous post. SONY isn't rich and operating at a huge profit like a certain monopoly. SONY can't afford to hire 250 additional people to work on Gran Turismo. Do you know what that would cost just in payroll, assuming they were getting just $25K a year? 6.25 million dollars. That's not benefits, that's not the extra cost of buying the equipment and software to do their jobs, or leasing the space where they can work. And then there's what MS got with those 400 plus workers they hired. In two years, this constellation of studios produced...

Yep. Poor widdle PD, who didn't have two cents to rub together when they were working on GT5.

Anyway, this has become just another Forza board, so it's no surprise how only true believers are welcome around here.

 

[Vaxxtx]

SONY isn't rich and operating at a huge profit like a certain monopoly. SONY can't afford to hire 250 additional people to work on Gran Turismo.

It is funny, my first few moments of Forza 4 firing up - after doing a day's worth of homework getting the files in F3 ready to import. Gah, what an ordeal. But it started, Jeremy Claxon blathered for a minute, and then I was thrown without warning into that introductory race with the Ferrari. And darn it, an automatic tranny. But it was a blast! It handled like a dream, and even though I wasn't familiar with the Alps course, I was flying past bots left and right, and won handily. THIS was awesome sauce indeed. My bro and I admired the scenery and the roar of the car, watching the replay for a few laps before he nudged me into starting my career. F Class of course, but both games make you start at the bottom and work your way up.
And then as I began to climb in classes, things weren't so rosy. The car communicates with me poorly, and the driver views aren't comfortable. The cars are unstable with the aids off, very unstable. The tendency to oversteer from the first two games was back. They wanted to keep turning on their own, and I had to jerk the wheel to break the spell. The bots were becoming very rowdy, banging into me a lot, and braking too hard in turns. You'd better like the damage modeling because you'll see a lot of it. Just as in F1 and 2, the job of the bots behind the leader seemed to be there simply to hold me up and make life as difficult as possible. Yep, this is Forza...

Anyway, this has become just another Forza board, so it's no surprise how only true believers are welcome around here.

Can you give some sources on this claim of Sonys workforce? This is stated as a fact, unless you work for Sony, I would love to see where this information comes from.

The first race in Forza has every single aid on. You can easily win by holding the gas on, not touching the brake, and barely point the stick or wheel in the right direction. If that is "awesomesauce" to you, and with aids off its too hard for you to drive, then maybe put the aids back on.

Or if you want I can send you some awesome tunes that I made for assist-free driving that are very stable. For F, E, C, B, and even an A class. Add me on XBL...my gt is same as my PSN, and Forum Name.

 

[GTForzafan]

No one said, that Forza 4 is perfect... on the other hand...
For some GT 5 is....

Then your excuses... do you know that PD, had a huge budget to build GT5 ?
Prologue alone paid almost the development of GT5....

Tenacious Stop.... "Meanwhile the other rides sound like vacuum cleaners..." THis is getting ridiculous...
When you give a free pass, to GT5 Sound ?
"Unretouched unaffected pics of a good number of Standards look almost as good as Premiums. " ---- Delirious....

What's sad, is this kind of defensive arguments, like someone hurted you or your family...

Poor poor PD... /s

"Yes, I said I want more Standard cars and tracks. Racing those cars on those tracks is sure a lot more fun than not racing them, I assure you."
So more conversions and upscaled models from PSP and PS2.... and to complete the pack, a lot of the same cars , just to build numbers! Why even bother with premiums ? Just give standard material.... /s

And if you are fine with the standard ps2 look cars, then you most love the cockpit view of the standards....

"LMSCorvette is vexed because I defend GT5. " You don't defend it only, you put it on the pedestal, and that's why it's hard to take you serious...

 

[SparksBCN]

SONY isn't rich and operating at a huge profit like a certain monopoly. SONY can't afford to hire 250 additional people to work on Gran Turismo. Do you know what that would cost just in payroll, assuming they were getting just $25K a year? 6.25 million dollars. That's not benefits, that's not the extra cost of buying the equipment and software to do their jobs, or leasing the space where they can work. And then there's what MS got with those 400 plus workers they hired.

It's funny that you're trying to make PD look like the underdogs and SONY like a poor company when GT5 costed 80 million dollars, you know, the second most expensive game ever... BTW, those 80 millions were covered with GT5P sales.

Turn 10 workforce consists of 350 people counting all the outsourced companys working for them, Dan himself has stated it many times, so I don't know where are you pulling the "400 plus workers" because that's not true at all. And if they're outsourcing it's beacuse IT'S CHEAPER than to expand the internal people to 350. Why do you think all of this companys doing outsourced work are located in Vietnam, China, India and places like that?

I don't think that Forza 4 costed more than GT5 without anyone knowing... Hell, I don't think that Forza 2, 3 and 4 together costed more than GT5.

Oh, and before you ask me to back up my claims, I think you should back up yours first.

 

[GTForzafan]

SparksBCN, when someone says to me that standard tracks and models, are almost as good as premiums....
I can't take anything that person said, seriously...
He has a opinion, that Sony and PD, are the pure and immaculate virgins, and Microsoft an evil rich corporation...
Why doesn't this surprises me ? It's because the games are often compared, to discuss the games, but to prove which console is better...

This thread is becoming more nonsense than the Neogaf Vs thread between these games...
The arguments are reaching new levels of insanity...

 

[Akira AC]

This thread is becoming more nonsense than the Neogaf Vs thread between these games...
The arguments are reaching new levels of insanity...

I guess you right, people who makes nonsensical posts and people who follows flamebaiting without making the thread move on.

That is the level of insanity that has reach, I'm yet so see which side will subside on its irrational posts and arguments (because is not exclusive to the GT side of the argument).

 

[Scaff]

And then as I began to climb in classes, things weren't so rosy. The car communicates with me poorly, and the driver views aren't comfortable. The cars are unstable with the aids off, very unstable. The tendency to oversteer from the first two games was back. They wanted to keep turning on their own, and I had to jerk the wheel to break the spell.

Now please excuse the driving as this was done at around 1.30am, but this is the car and track combo you gave me as an example of oversteer that simply could not be managed and stopped you getting around the last tight bend at Silverstone above 50mph.



The car is exactly as you spec'd it, '04 TT with Forza front and rear aero, race tyres, etc.

This is with all aids bar ABS switched off and the last tight corner was taken at an average of 55mph, despite the less than perfect racing line (which I believe was what you said it should have been). Most interesting of all was reviewing the telemetry, which showed not a bit of oversteer in that corner, rather quite clear understeer that needed to be corrected around 2/3 round the corner. The same was the case for the final sweeper at Silverstone (also in the video), so even with the higher speed this corner allows.

Now one thing that is important to not is that this was the second lap, as the first was spent getting the tyres up to temperature, in the first lap the rear was more lively, as the TT's weight distribution will see them gain heat quicker than the rear. However having to get tyres up to temp, and the car being more 'interesting' while you are doing so is both realistic and common to both GT5 and FM4.

In short I'm not able to confirm or recreate the situation you described, that of an unstable car with the aids off and an almost constant oversteer on corner exit even with the same car and corner combo. Why this would be I have no idea, but I fell the video speaks for the testing I have done in regard to this.


Regards

Scaff


Oh and to everyone on here, you have been asked to ensure that you play the argument not the man, those members (from either side of the fence) who fail to do so will find they are on holiday from GT planet for a few days.

 

[GTForzafan]

Scaff, i Understand your position...
But when silly arguments are used, it becomes difficult to discuss the argument, and not the poster...

Using the argument the PD, is some kind of underdog company, that hasn't been most profitable with their GT franchise....

Or that the Update Spec 2.0, improved the converted textures....

But, being fair it isn't the GT side only....
Forza is not all that also...
The accuracy of some models and the shining effect, is one of my bigger gripes...

 

[cuco33]

If you guys wouldn't lie about what I post, I would consider your opinions to have some merit. I DO NOT do nothing but criticize Forza. I do have good things to say about it. But because I don't worship your little green idol with the lot of you in this section, as with many of us, I'm the big bad biased fanboy.

Okay, I was a little carried away last night because of the extreme favor shown a game that can do no wrong here. Or at least anything wrong to really post about with most of you. Sure, there are some cruddy models in GT5. Yes, I'd rather have a thousand Premium cars and 70 tracks. But As I said in my previous post. SONY isn't rich and operating at a huge profit like a certain monopoly. SONY can't afford to hire 250 additional people to work on Gran Turismo. Do you know what that would cost just in payroll, assuming they were getting just $25K a year? 6.25 million dollars. That's not benefits, that's not the extra cost of buying the equipment and software to do their jobs, or leasing the space where they can work. And then there's what MS got with those 400 plus workers they hired. In two years, this constellation of studios produced...

90 new cars. How many new tracks, 4? Do I recall people accusing Polyphony of being lazy? Why, yes I do.

Some of you guys won't be honest in your criticism of GT5, or at least even handed. More than once I've seen Standard cars in race that I forgot were Standards, and was surprised when I realized it in replays. Unretouched unaffected pics of a good number of Standards look almost as good as Premiums. There is a whole section of nothing but Standard car pics in the GT5 Photo Mode board, and most of the unfixed pics look stellar. Yes, I said I want more Standard cars and tracks. Racing those cars on those tracks is sure a lot more fun than not racing them, I assure you.

LMSCorvette is vexed because I defend GT5. But somehow, he doesn't have a problem in the world with the FDF people here pulling out any extreme example to prove in their posts that Forza 4 is God's gift to racing games.

Look, there really are issues with F4. I haven't touched anything of the game yet other than saving replays - with a number of failures, one I had to try four times, and importing a vinyl group on my Trueno - it's a mess. And racing. But just racing is a chore. Forza just isn't like other games. If you aren't familiar with its flavor of physics, you have to get schooled on what the game wants or you aren't going to do well in C Class or above, except maybe with a hand controller or all the assists turned on. It's very different from every PC sim I've played, where I feel remotely competent when I grab the wheel controller I happen to have handy. I don't have to import something special - and pricey, and delayed - from Germany just to have a good wheel. Maybe the Fanatec is necessary to really feel what the car is doing. But if that's true, there's something wrong with a game when you need to import a boutique wheel which doesn't even come with pedals!

And stock cars that sound like race cars? Oh that's awesome sauce. Meanwhile the other rides sound like vacuum cleaners...

It is funny, my first few moments of Forza 4 firing up - after doing a day's worth of homework getting the files in F3 ready to import. Gah, what an ordeal. But it started, Jeremy Claxon blathered for a minute, and then I was thrown without warning into that introductory race with the Ferrari. And darn it, an automatic tranny. But it was a blast! It handled like a dream, and even though I wasn't familiar with the Alps course, I was flying past bots left and right, and won handily. THIS was awesome sauce indeed. My bro and I admired the scenery and the roar of the car, watching the replay for a few laps before he nudged me into starting my career. F Class of course, but both games make you start at the bottom and work your way up.

And then as I began to climb in classes, things weren't so rosy. The car communicates with me poorly, and the driver views aren't comfortable. The cars are unstable with the aids off, very unstable. The tendency to oversteer from the first two games was back. They wanted to keep turning on their own, and I had to jerk the wheel to break the spell. The bots were becoming very rowdy, banging into me a lot, and braking too hard in turns. You'd better like the damage modeling because you'll see a lot of it. Just as in F1 and 2, the job of the bots behind the leader seemed to be there simply to hold me up and make life as difficult as possible. Yep, this is Forza...

Anyway, this has become just another Forza board, so it's no surprise how only true believers are welcome around here.

Your post sounds like one big huge biased rant...
That all sounds like excuses to me. Poor lil PD, developer to the most successful racing franchise of all time, creator to Sony's biggest gaming franchise not only across each generation but of all PS generations combined... 5 years between GT4 and GT5, 60+million budget and never outsourced nor expanded their team only to work on other projects NOT RELATED to GT5 development. That's why GT5 was launched in the state it was. Project mismanagement leading to poor design and issues within the game. You don't blame the competition for properly managing a project. You blame those who did not properly manage the project...

T10 also remodeled every car, wheel and track in the game already while including better visuals with the lighting system along with those new cars and tracks. And consistency is throughout the game. Every car has the same quality and has every feature at it's disposal. No porting the majority of content from last gen. More cars on track. Revamped career mode. etc etc. The improvements are throughout the game but anyone can neglect reality if they choose to.

TD, you are massively biased. But I won't go into it. No one is claiming Forza 4 as being god's gift to man. You're implying this because some folks are criticizing GT5 or PD based on GT5, so I guess reality is that you can't take the criticism PD/GT5 gets. I've given my share of criticism for both titles/franchises and I was once a diehard GT faithful starting from GT1 days spewing elitist biased dribble up until I experienced a proper racing sim with a wheel. And then I opened my eyes, still enjoying the GT franchise but being open to others on ANY platform (let's not kid ourselves here, you mentioning MS as being a monopoly shows your true colors). I eventually saw that other titles were doing more with the genre than GT was, and I saw all the sidetracking going on with GT PSP/GT5 development only to see the issues in those games as being the end result of it all.

If you order a Fanatec today, you'll get one shipped to your door in 2 weeks. There's no longer those delays as suffered with Turbo S/GT2 buyers. And if you want pedals, order them!!! Are people not paying $500ish for a Thrustmaster T500RS wheel?? Pay to play!

 

[Scaff]

Scaff, i Understand your position...
But when silly arguments are used, it becomes difficult to discuss the argument, and not the poster...

Using the argument the PD, is some kind of underdog company, that hasn't been most profitable with their GT franchise....

Or that the Update Spec 2.0, improved the converted textures....

But, being fair it's the GT side only....
Forza is not all that also...
The accuracy of some models and the shining effect, is one of my bigger gripes...

Difficult or not that's how it works, and to be honest if the point is in your opinion 'silly' then it should be all the easier to counter.


Scaff

 

[ItsHim]

"Have you ever played GT4 in 1080i? I have.
GT5 was never ever that last gen at all. Additionally, visuals have yet improved again with Spec2."

So, the Spec 2 update, magically changed the textures of the standard tracks ? and Updated the standard cars textures....

So do get your facts straight.

Go check the details of the Spec 2.0 update.... https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-5-spec-2-0-now-available/

Spreading lies, won't work....

You have failed to mention the well established fact that GT5 uses the high res GT4 photomode models/textures. Those were never used for actual gameplay due to the fact the PS2 couldn't cope with the resolution. In fact they were considered being "next gen" back in the days and almost caused a PR disaster because some gaming magazines failed to mention those were not actual in-game pics but rendered stills (yet utilizing the same engine).

The way you make it sound is that GT5 uses GT4 gameplay assets, which is false.

As I take it you have not experienced GT4 in 1080i, otherwise you would understand that your point is flawed.

And yes, unless you missed the Spec2 update and you still base your judgement on the original release of GT5, visuals have improved considerably for standard cars, too.

They often do not look up to par with the premium models (or FM4 cars for that matter) but their quality varies and some do look quite the deal, especially in-game at dusk or dawn when the rear lights come into play.

And I'd be very grateful if you could show a bit more maturity and not accuse me of spreading lies. Do your homework, that would improve the quality of your posts, and this discussion in fact.

 

[JDMKING13]

This is something cool Kaz posted on his twitter GT5 lap and real Nurburgring
The way both drivers share similar steering inputs is awesome. This video in my opinion shows how good and accurate the Ring is. My favorite real world track so far but with SPA coming next week and having the ability to play the track now with my Euro/Japanese friends I could see SPA stealing some thunder away. It is a great track!