FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[MagpieRacer]

Pagani Huayra, nuff said.

/thread

 

[blauster654]

I always thought the only thing GT had on Forza was the physics and not so important, the GFX. After playing GT since GT1 and only recently having got my hands on an xbox to play Forza 4, I've totally changed my view.

Different yes. Without going into too much detail I think GT5 handles stock cars better and in Forza modified or race prepared cars are more realistic. So I'd have to say now they are level.

Maybe its boredom with GT5 at this stage, maybe its disbelief that it could be bettered but I think on the whole Forza edges GT5. Track, car selection, sound, racing series and online - Forza4 really hands GT5 its a$s. Content wise GT5 is a huge step back from GT4 imo and I think if it had all of 4's content it may still hold the crown on balance.

Either way, thank God we have both. Right, I'm off to take the DeTomaso Pantera around Infineon one more time.

 

[sokira]

How turn 10 can make 10 premium cars every month when PD give us only 5 cars in two months !!!

 

[Tornado]

Much, much more manpower.

 

[sokira]

Much, much more manpower.

so WHY PD doesn't take more manpower ! they have a lot of money more than turn 10 I think so they can do it 👎

 

[Brend]

so WHY PD doesn't take more manpower ! they have a lot of money more than turn 10 I think so they can do it 👎

Well...it wouldn't be PD would it?

 

[prymet1me]

How turn 10 can make 10 premium cars every month when PD give us only 5 cars in two months !!!

Ahem..
Those are not premium, they are just normal cars in Forza and normal cars for this generation of consoles.

 

[James1436]

Ahem..
Those are not premium, they are just normal cars in Forza and normal cars for this generation of consoles.

That's debatable.

 

[cuco33]

That's debatable.

Actually it's not, at least not in my book.
PD were the first dev to release the first game ever, GT5, which had a split in content with the whole premium vs standard thing. We've heard it all before, but the split is there in both quality of visuals/models and features. Every car in Forza 4 is held to the same quality, the same feature, etc. You might see a cockpit gauge that isn't working/working right but that's a bug, not a design choice to port over 800+ cars from last gen. Forza 4 has followed every racing game... no let me edit that... Forza 4 has followed every game by keeping content consistent throughout the game. The only 'questionable' inconsistency is AutoVista's mode with 25 cars. Drop this mode entirely which has the extra bells and whistles and you still have the entire Forza 4 game untouched. Drop the standards from GT5 and you miss out entirely on 80% of the game's content, amongst many standard specific racing events that are in both A/B spec modes (so that 'short' career becomes even shorter). In other words, there's no 'standard vs premium' split because all the cars in Forza 4 are held to the same standard.

I still think that GT5, when the stars are aligned (premiums on a 'premium' track, in photo travel is even better), GT5 is STUNNING! Photo realistic at times even. Nothing in my book holds a candle to GT5 when the conditions are right... sadly 20% isn't the norm in the game...

 

[Tornado]

That's debatable.

Standards are not in any way "standard" for this generation of videogames. They are outdated in their quality, they are outdated in the way they were constructed (and, to be frank, single piece models were pretty close to being so in 2004), and they are outdated in their presentation in the game.

That isn't debateable, and for that reason neither is the original statement. That GT5 Premiums tend to (but by no means unanimously) look better than equivalent Forza (or Shift, or whatever) cars doesn't mean anything for the Standards; nor does it mean that Forza cars are not in line with the expectations of the videogame market as it is now.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

First of, I am a huge fan of Sim Racers to begin with. I have a racing license myself and take part in local races and track days (Laguna Seca only being a few hours away) as often as I can. As much as I love FM4 and GT5, I must say that my favorite Sim is still the GTR Series (Specifically GTR2) by SimBin Studios. (People arguing that Forza has better car sounds really need to check out GTR3). But, I digress

Forza Motorsport 4, the latest entry in the FM series, is not a simulator. In my opinion, the only thing it simulates well are engine sounds. Don't get me wrong, I am a huge FM fan. I own all the games and proudly bought the LCE of FM4. But I'm not a biased idiot. FM4 just doesn't have the minerals to rack up as a Sim. First off, the tracks in the game have been sized bigger in width to help with overtaking. This is not something done towards Simulation, but towards fun and usability. Also, cars in FM4 slide way too much. You can drive at 120mph and start loosing grip and catch your car sliding, then gaining grip by just aligning your car. In real life, grip is something you lose/catch. If you're going 120mph and you lose grip, you can expect to get tossed around. Sandor van Es, the driver who set the Nurburgring lap time in the Lexus LFA, explains it rather well: http://youtu.be/ENmnEd7EZd4?t=3m45s (The link will start the video 3 minutes and 45 seconds in. Be sure to have annotations on, since it has subtitles due to the German language being spoken by the driver and the interviewer)

Again, I think the physics were tweaked this way, not in the name of Simulation, but fun and usability. I can continue the list, but you get what I mean. Forza 2 was closer to a Sim than Forza 4, in spirit. But since FM3, Turn 10 Studios is focusing more on delivering "Everyone's Driving Game" rather than a Simulator. Has it succeeded? It sure has. I love playing FM4 when I'm out for a fun, track day like experience with some friends.

Now, onto GT5. I was rather disappointed at GT5 when it launched. Having followed the traditional GT format;
PS1: GT1 - Ok/GT2 - Amazing!
PS2: GT3 - Ok/GT4 - Amazing!
PS3: GT5 - Ok/GT6 - Amazing??

But as more and more updates were released, I finally sat down and gave GT5 a shot. For those Forza players who claim that Forza's driving physics equal those of GT5; Please, do yourself a favor and give GT5 a try with a FFB Wheel. If you don't notice a difference coming into the first corner of a track, then you are either extremely bias or have just lost the ability of sensing your arms and may be experiencing a seizure. Gran Turismo 5 doesn't set out to be "Everyone's Driving Game". It doesn't claim to have great engine sounds or a physical damage system. What it does claim to be, is a Driving Simulator (Not a Racing Simulator. Those who don't know the difference...play GTR/rFactor/iRacing). GT5 sets out to be a Driving Sim and it does it very well! I love the car handling in GT5, it is, in fact, the best I've seen in a game. (GTR2 is 6 years old, so of course it has some outdated physics...still beats Forza 4, though...which is shocking and disappointing at the same time).
If I want to test the performance of a car and of my driving skills, I'd take GT5 over Forza any day. And as someone on here mentioned earlier (pardon me for not remembering whom), when everything is just right, GT5 is jaw dropping...and do note that I never use that phrase. The graphics are, by far, the best in console games. It is not consistent, but the highs in GT5 beats the highs in other games, whereas the lows barely keep up.

My point is this; FM4 is more fun if you're less into Simulation and more into playing around with cars...and trust me, with a livery editor, storefront and auction house, not to mention the deep upgrade system, there's a LOT of playing around to do!

GT5 is more fun if you are slightly more into the Simulation genre, but you don't want to lose the essence of what makes a game...a game. GT5 is the greatest hybrid of Sim/Video Game ever released, in my opinion, and it dominates in its priorities. Like I mentioned earlier, if GT6 fixes upon the issues of engine sounds, the gap between standard and premium (cars and tracks alike) and manages to ditch out some more game modes; I seriously can't see how Forza 5 would be able to keep up. Still, Forza will always be Forza. GT5 will never beat Forza because GT5 is heading for a different direction. They are both masters of their domain, so to speak. This is great news for us consumers, because now we have everything!

Game with Sim elements: Forza 4
Sim with Game elements: Gran Turismo 5
Racing Simulator: GTR3 (Coming Soon!)
Arcade Racer (Need for Speed....let's not kid ourselves here. NFS is not a Sim. Mario Kart is more of a Sim than NFS Shift)

 

[Scaff]

First of, I am a huge fan of Sim Racers to begin with. I have a racing license myself and take part in local races and track days (Laguna Seca only being a few hours away) as often as I can. As much as I love FM4 and GT5, I must say that my favorite Sim is still the GTR Series (Specifically GTR2) by SimBin Studios. (People arguing that Forza has better car sounds really need to check out GTR3). But, I digress

Forza Motorsport 4, the latest entry in the FM series, is not a simulator. In my opinion, the only thing it simulates well are engine sounds. Don't get me wrong, I am a huge FM fan. I own all the games and proudly bought the LCE of FM4. But I'm not a biased idiot. FM4 just doesn't have the minerals to rack up as a Sim. First off, the tracks in the game have been sized bigger in width to help with overtaking. This is not something done towards Simulation, but towards fun and usability. Also, cars in FM4 slide way too much. You can drive at 120mph and start loosing grip and catch your car sliding, then gaining grip by just aligning your car. In real life, grip is something you lose/catch. If you're going 120mph and you lose grip, you can expect to get tossed around. Sandor van Es, the driver who set the Nurburgring lap time in the Lexus LFA, explains it rather well: http://youtu.be/ENmnEd7EZd4?t=3m45s (The link will start the video 3 minutes and 45 seconds in. Be sure to have annotations on, since it has subtitles due to the German language being spoken by the driver and the interviewer)

Again, I think the physics were tweaked this way, not in the name of Simulation, but fun and usability. I can continue the list, but you get what I mean. Forza 2 was closer to a Sim than Forza 4, in spirit. But since FM3, Turn 10 Studios is focusing more on delivering "Everyone's Driving Game" rather than a Simulator. Has it succeeded? It sure has. I love playing FM4 when I'm out for a fun, track day like experience with some friends.

Now, onto GT5. I was rather disappointed at GT5 when it launched. Having followed the traditional GT format;
PS1: GT1 - Ok/GT2 - Amazing!
PS2: GT3 - Ok/GT4 - Amazing!
PS3: GT5 - Ok/GT6 - Amazing??

But as more and more updates were released, I finally sat down and gave GT5 a shot. For those Forza players who claim that Forza's driving physics equal those of GT5; Please, do yourself a favor and give GT5 a try with a FFB Wheel. If you don't notice a difference coming into the first corner of a track, then you are either extremely bias or have just lost the ability of sensing your arms and may be experiencing a seizure. Gran Turismo 5 doesn't set out to be "Everyone's Driving Game". It doesn't claim to have great engine sounds or a physical damage system. What it does claim to be, is a Driving Simulator (Not a Racing Simulator. Those who don't know the difference...play GTR/rFactor/iRacing). GT5 sets out to be a Driving Sim and it does it very well! I love the car handling in GT5, it is, in fact, the best I've seen in a game. (GTR2 is 6 years old, so of course it has some outdated physics...still beats Forza 4, though...which is shocking and disappointing at the same time).
If I want to test the performance of a car and of my driving skills, I'd take GT5 over Forza any day. And as someone on here mentioned earlier (pardon me for not remembering whom), when everything is just right, GT5 is jaw dropping...and do note that I never use that phrase. The graphics are, by far, the best in console games. It is not consistent, but the highs in GT5 beats the highs in other games, whereas the lows barely keep up.

My point is this; FM4 is more fun if you're less into Simulation and more into playing around with cars...and trust me, with a livery editor, storefront and auction house, not to mention the deep upgrade system, there's a LOT of playing around to do!

GT5 is more fun if you are slightly more into the Simulation genre, but you don't want to lose the essence of what makes a game...a game. GT5 is the greatest hybrid of Sim/Video Game ever released, in my opinion, and it dominates in its priorities. Like I mentioned earlier, if GT6 fixes upon the issues of engine sounds, the gap between standard and premium (cars and tracks alike) and manages to ditch out some more game modes; I seriously can't see how Forza 5 would be able to keep up. Still, Forza will always be Forza. GT5 will never beat Forza because GT5 is heading for a different direction. They are both masters of their domain, so to speak. This is great news for us consumers, because now we have everything!

Game with Sim elements: Forza 4
Sim with Game elements: Gran Turismo 5
Racing Simulator: GTR3 (Coming Soon!)
Arcade Racer (Need for Speed....let's not kid ourselves here. NFS is not a Sim. Mario Kart is more of a Sim than NFS Shift)

I could not disagree with you more, in terms of both how weight transfer is managed and the tyre physics model FM4 has GT5 beat. The more I play FM4 the clearer (to me) the difference is.

I've logged hundreds of hours on track and proving grounds while working in the motor industry and while neither FM4 or GT5 is perfect, in terms of replicating what happens dynamically to a car, FM4 is far closer.

Its been shown (and the thread is long and detailed) that GT5 doesn't even account for the differences that contact patch and suspension makes to lateral G. With the same grade tyre on wildly different cars returning the same lateral G figures.

Tyre scrub may be overdone in FM4, but at least it present. Understeer or oversteer in GT5 and you loose very little speed at all, do the same in FM4 and you will scrub off speed.

All of the above is also far more accurately effected by weight transfer itself and such the combination of the two means you get a realistically progressive build and loss of grip from all four of the tyre. GT5 goes from grip to nothing in a heartbeat, and to be blunt that's not how the vast majority of tyres, particularly road legal tyres, react at all.

The weight transfer is also well illustrated in that FM4 does a reasonable job of recreating lift-off oversteer, something that GT5 fairs poorly at particularly once understeer has set in.


Personally I don't see how GT5 does a better job overall in terms of physics and in particularly 'feel' at all, and in regard to wider tracks. Well that's actually track, as in one.


Scaff

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Actually it's not, at least not in my book.
PD were the first dev to release the first game ever, GT5, which had a split in content with the whole premium vs standard thing. We've heard it all before, but the split is there in both quality of visuals/models and features. Every car in Forza 4 is held to the same quality, the same feature, etc. You might see a cockpit gauge that isn't working/working right but that's a bug, not a design choice to port over 800+ cars from last gen. Forza 4 has followed every racing game... no let me edit that... Forza 4 has followed every game by keeping content consistent throughout the game. The only 'questionable' inconsistency is AutoVista's mode with 25 cars. Drop this mode entirely which has the extra bells and whistles and you still have the entire Forza 4 game untouched. Drop the standards from GT5 and you miss out entirely on 80% of the game's content, amongst many standard specific racing events that are in both A/B spec modes (so that 'short' career becomes even shorter). In other words, there's no 'standard vs premium' split because all the cars in Forza 4 are held to the same standard.

I still think that GT5, when the stars are aligned (premiums on a 'premium' track, in photo travel is even better), GT5 is STUNNING! Photo realistic at times even. Nothing in my book holds a candle to GT5 when the conditions are right... sadly 20% isn't the norm in the game...

The photo thing on both games I think many could do with out, unless it's pictures from a race replay then yeah that makes sense. However, photo modes take up space and detract from the driving/racing factor to a degree. I agree with your post though it's an awesome one at that. The only slight modification I'd make is the cars ported are from the last two renditions of GT, GT3 and 4. So that's a bit worse I'd say.

I think for all the cars that PD gives or allows the Japanese companies to have in this game others should equally have. There is a vast heritage in Mclaren, Ferrari, Chevy, Ford, Alfa, Audi, Mercedes, Aston Martin and so on and yet they have little to show for it when put up against Nissan, Mazda, Honda, Mitsubish, Toyota and so on. Forza has done a better job of giving gear heads the cars that helped give manufactures their mark in history.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

Its been shown (and the thread is long and detailed) that GT5 doesn't even account for the differences that contact patch and suspension makes to lateral G. With the same grade tyre on wildly different cars returning the same lateral G figures.

Scaff

Hmm, I haven't paid much attention to that. Looks like PD dropped the ball on that one.

Tyre scrub may be overdone in FM4, but at least it present. Understeer or oversteer in GT5 and you loose very little speed at all, do the same in FM4 and you will scrub off speed.

I'll have to disagree with you on that. Both Forza and GT5 simulate understeer rather well. And during all my play-throughs, I did lose speed when understeering through corners in GT5. I couldn't say which one simulates understeer more accurately, because they feel pretty much the same to me, in that sense. The ONLY issue I have when it comes to understeer, is with the GT-R in Forza 4. Like I mentioned before, I love FM4, but the GT-R is a hunk of garbage on wheels in Forza. I own a 2008 GT-R and my car handles much better than the Spec V GT-R in Forza. But for a good reason, since it's the computerized aids and the ATTESA System that helps the GT-R giant handle all its weight. I don't think Forza had the time to replicate all that (since the game is called Forza...not GT-R the Video Game). So, instead, it just places a 4,000lb AWD car in its physics engine, so of course it's going to understeer. Like I said, that's my only complaint in understeer. Loss of grip, is another matter. Try performing an E-brake 360 while going 35mph in Forza 4, then try it GT5. In GT5, you feel how the tires gain grip suddenly once you turn the wheel around and you feel the wheels catching. In Forza, the car just sluggishly turns. This little test is my only major complaint when it comes to simulation in Forza. The loss of grip just isn't there. The cars skid way too much. GT5 does somethings wrong, too. The road tires in GT5 oversteer far too much when using a RWD car, and I find myself spinning out more often than I should. Also, I don't really understand how the tires wear out in Forza 4. I did 50 laps on Laguna with racing slicks and I didn't lose any grip at all. The tires did gain grip after the first lap or two, due to them heating up, but they never wore out. I'm a little confused as of why that is. And yes, I do have tire wear enabled. Perhaps Pirelli have some super slicks that I'm unaware of?

 

[Scaff]

Hmm, I haven't paid much attention to that. Looks like PD dropped the ball on that one.

In a big way because it pretty much runs a massive part of suspension tuning and causes rather interesting (and incorrect) things to happen with any car that runs differing tyre sizes front and rear.

Try comparing an RUF in GT5 and FM4 for a quite clear example.

I'll have to disagree with you on that. Both Forza and GT5 simulate understeer rather well. And during all my play-throughs, I did lose speed when understeering through corners in GT5. I couldn't say which one simulates understeer more accurately, because they feel pretty much the same to me, in that sense. The ONLY issue I have when it comes to understeer, is with the GT-R in Forza 4. Like I mentioned before, I love FM4, but the GT-R is a hunk of garbage on wheels in Forza. I own a 2008 GT-R and my car handles much better than the Spec V GT-R in Forza. But for a good reason, since it's the computerized aids and the ATTESA System that helps the GT-R giant handle all its weight. I don't think Forza had the time to replicate all that (since the game is called Forza...not GT-R the Video Game). So, instead, it just places a 4,000lb AWD car in its physics engine, so of course it's going to understeer. Like I said, that's my only complaint in understeer. Loss of grip, is another matter. Try performing an E-brake 360 while going 35mph in Forza 4, then try it GT5. In GT5, you feel how the tires gain grip suddenly once you turn the wheel around and you feel the wheels catching. In Forza, the car just sluggishly turns. This little test is my only major complaint when it comes to simulation in Forza. The loss of grip just isn't there. The cars skid way too much. GT5 does somethings wrong, too. The road tires in GT5 oversteer far too much when using a RWD car, and I find myself spinning out more often than I should. Also, I don't really understand how the tires wear out in Forza 4. I did 50 laps on Laguna with racing slicks and I didn't lose any grip at all. The tires did gain grip after the first lap or two, due to them heating up, but they never wore out. I'm a little confused as of why that is. And yes, I do have tire wear enabled. Perhaps Pirelli have some super slicks that I'm unaware of?

In regard to understeer/oversteer in GT5 I didn't say that you don't lose speed due to tyre scrub, rather that you don't lose as much as you should. Its also almost impossible to cure understeer effectively with the throttle in GT5, as lift-off oversteer is poorly modelled, a massive issue when it comes to driving just about any hot hatch.

It interesting to read you view on gaining/losing grip, as my own experience is pretty much the total opposite if yours. GT5 totally fails to communicate any lose of grip at all, going from traction to slip with almost no progression at all. Now while that's not 100% inaccurate for some slicks, it's massively inaccurate for road legal tyres and the reason why driving on comfort tyres is insanely slippy.

The GT series has always had an issue with low-speed tyre modelling (I did a massive post on it back in the GT4 days) and while GT5 is much, much better, I don't agree that its better than FM4. The tyre modelling in FM4 (while still not right) is a lot more accurate that GT5.

Tyre wear is without a doubt almost non-existent in FM4, and GT5 was a lot better in this regard. Right up to the last update that nerfed tyre wear to stupid levels. We now have FM4 with almost no wear and GT5 with tyres that wear as soon as you look at them.


Scaff

 

[TheCrazySwede]

In regard to understeer/oversteer in GT5 I didn't say that you don't lose speed due to tyre scrub, rather that you don't lose as much as you should. Its also almost impossible to cure understeer effectively with the throttle in GT5, as lift-off oversteer is poorly modelled, a massive issue when it comes to driving just about any hot hatch.

It interesting to read you view on gaining/losing grip, as my own experience is pretty much the total opposite if yours. GT5 totally fails to communicate any lose of grip at all, going from traction to slip with almost no progression at all. Now while that's not 100% inaccurate for some slicks, it's massively inaccurate for road legal tyres and the reason why driving on comfort tyres is insanely slippy.

The GT series has always had an issue with low-speed tyre modelling (I did a massive post on it back in the GT4 days) and while GT5 is much, much better, I don't agree that its better than FM4. The tyre modelling in FM4 (while still not right) is a lot more accurate that GT5.

Tyre wear is without a doubt almost non-existent in FM4, and GT5 was a lot better in this regard. Right up to the last update that nerfed tyre wear to stupid levels. We now have FM4 with almost no wear and GT5 with tyres that wear as soon as you look at them.
Scaff

Perhaps we can agree to disagree on some matters

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I could not disagree with you more, in terms of both how weight transfer is managed and the tyre physics model FM4 has GT5 beat. The more I play FM4 the clearer (to me) the difference is.

I've logged hundreds of hours on track and proving grounds while working in the motor industry and while neither FM4 or GT5 is perfect, in terms of replicating what happens dynamically to a car, FM4 is far closer.

Its been shown (and the thread is long and detailed) that GT5 doesn't even account for the differences that contact patch and suspension makes to lateral G. With the same grade tyre on wildly different cars returning the same lateral G figures.

Tyre scrub may be overdone in FM4, but at least it present. Understeer or oversteer in GT5 and you loose very little speed at all, do the same in FM4 and you will scrub off speed.

All of the above is also far more accurately effected by weight transfer itself and such the combination of the two means you get a realistically progressive build and loss of grip from all four of the tyre. GT5 goes from grip to nothing in a heartbeat, and to be blunt that's not how the vast majority of tyres, particularly road legal tyres, react at all.

The weight transfer is also well illustrated in that FM4 does a reasonable job of recreating lift-off oversteer, something that GT5 fairs poorly at particularly once understeer has set in.


Personally I don't see how GT5 does a better job overall in terms of physics and in particularly 'feel' at all, and in regard to wider tracks. Well that's actually track, as in one.


Scaff

GT5’s weight transfer is one of the best things about the physics model. The tyre model in GT5 although is basic, does a reasonable job as long as you stick to the stock tyres that come with the car.

Dynamically I would say GT5 has Forza beat but that is just going by FM3 and FM4 demo. I will get full game and hopefully a wheel later this year. Also will make video showing Forza’s shortcomings and that really is there is not really an edge to the physics and really ruins the feel of driving on the limit.

Understeering or oversteering in GT5 causes you to lose a lot of speed from my experience.

I find GT5 has progressive build up and loss of grip, if it was grip to nothing I think cars in GT5 will become undrivable. Thankfully the tyres don’t act like a switch and is very progressive.

GT5 does a reasonable job of lift-off oversteer in FWD and RWD cars.

For example techniques such as this all work with FWD cars in GT5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io7y-p8OutQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQMQkMvRG3I&t=13s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBYSl3dD-UQ

It would be good if PD improve differentials and also aerodynamics on top of the tyres and suspension but I think it will be a good 15 years before I'm very happy on most parts of the physics model. GT5 covers vehicle dynamics quite well with its current approximations through the large range of cars.

Quick question if you don't mind me asking, what controller do you use for GT5?

 

[Scaff]

GT5’s weight transfer is one of the best things about the physics model. The tyre model in GT5 although is basic, does a reasonable job as long as you stick to the stock tyres that come with the car.

The weight transfer model in GT5 is good, the problem is that its not as good as FM4s and when you combine that with the tyre model it starts to fall quite a bit short.

The tyre model has big holes in it regardless of the grade of tyre you use, this has been well documented here at GTP, its been shown that the same grade tyres will provide the same level of lateral grip on wildly different cars (such as a MINI Cooper S and a Corvette), which indicates a very basic set of tyre data is being used and also raises some questions about suspension modelling as well.

Dynamically I would say GT5 has Forza beat but that is just going by FM3 and FM4 demo. I will get full game and hopefully a wheel later this year.

I would quite agree that GT5 is better than FM3 (and have never said anything different) and put FM4's demo a small way ahead, however the full game is quite an improvement above that.

Also will make video showing Forza’s shortcomings and that really is there is not really an edge to the physics and really ruins the feel of driving on the limit.

Let me get this right, you have already decided that you are going to document FM4s shortcomings despite not having experienced the full title!

That alone screams of huge levels of bias on your part.

Understeering or oversteering in GT5 causes you to lose a lot of speed from my experience.

Oversteer scrubs a small amount of speed off, but nothing close to the amount you should loose, particularly at high levels of yaw. Understeer once it reaches a high level looses almost no speed at all in GT5, even when you back right off the throttle.

I find GT5 has progressive build up and loss of grip, if it was grip to nothing I think cars in GT5 will become undrivable. Thankfully the tyres don’t act like a switch and is very progressive.

I would have to disagree 100% with you on this, in particular the comfort tyres do act exactly like that.

GT5 does a reasonable job of lift-off oversteer in FWD and RWD cars.

For example techniques such as this all work with FWD cars in GT5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io7y-p8OutQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQMQkMvRG3I&t=13s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBYSl3dD-UQ

Unfortunately I can't check these videos at the moment (blocked at work), so a reply in regard to them will have to wait.

It would be good if PD improve differentials and also aerodynamics on top of the tyres and suspension but I think it will be a good 15 years before I'm very happy on most parts of the physics model. GT5 covers vehicle dynamics quite well with its current approximations through the large range of cars.

Oh don't get me worng, GT5 does a lot well, but at present FM4 does more better.

Quick question if you don't mind me asking, what controller do you use for GT5?

Dual Shock and Logitec wheel.



Scaff

 

[Saidur_Ali]

The weight transfer model in GT5 is good, the problem is that its not as good as FM4s and when you combine that with the tyre model it starts to fall quite a bit short.

The tyre model has big holes in it regardless of the grade of tyre you use, this has been well documented here at GTP, its been shown that the same grade tyres will provide the same level of lateral grip on wildly different cars (such as a MINI Cooper S and a Corvette), which indicates a very basic set of tyre data is being used and also raises some questions about suspension modelling as well.

In my opinion GT5’s weight transfer model is quite a bit better than the FM4 demo and regarding tyres, the way you require progression in throttle is better in GT5. If you put two and two together, FM4 Demo and FM3 fall quite a bit short of creating the feeling of driving on the limit in my opinion. It becomes quite a dull experience.

I would quite agree that GT5 is better than FM3 (and have never said anything different) and put FM4's demo a small way ahead, however the full game is quite an improvement above that.

When I do get the full game I will see if there is much of a difference.

Let me get this right, you have already decided that you are going to document FM4s shortcomings despite not having experienced the full title!

That alone screams of huge levels of bias on your part.

It depends on if the core fundamentals of the physics got changed between the demo and the full retail version. If there has been a massive change then it will be a pleasant surprise and I’ll be the first to say it.

Oversteer scrubs a small amount of speed off, but nothing close to the amount you should loose, particularly at high levels of yaw. Understeer once it reaches a high level looses almost no speed at all in GT5, even when you back right off the throttle.

You lose enough speed to be considered realistic I would say. How much mph should be dropped on a certain car to be realistic in your mind? If you get badly out of shape, you lose a lot of time, if it’s a small amount of oversteer you lose hardly any time just like in real life. Understeer loses again enough speed I would say to be believable.

I would have to disagree 100% with you on this, in particular the comfort tyres do act exactly like that.

Well I did a quick test earlier with 3 cars. First car stock tyres are Comfort Softs, the next two cars I tried were the F40 in Arcade Mode with Comfort Hards, same for the Zonda R around the High Speed Ring and found it perfectly drivable. Sure lap times won’t be as fast with these tyres but as regards to progressive build up and loss of grip I experienced that. I was surprised how far you could push something like the Zonda R or F40 on Comfort Hards and on my first lap did not lose control (I was not holding back) as I could feel the limit of the tyre. If it behaves like you said, I would be in big trouble when the car starts to lose grip but thankfully it is progressive even with this extreme combination. Only aid used was ABS:1 and everything else was off and grip reduction was on real.

Unfortunately I can't check these videos at the moment (blocked at work), so a reply in regard to them will have to wait.

No problem.

Oh don't get me worng, GT5 does a lot well, but at present FM4 does more better.



Dual Shock and Logitec wheel.



Scaff

You are entitled to your opinion, I can only comment on my experience of FM3 and FM4 demo to think that Forza has quite a bit to do before it recreates the feeling of driving on the ragged edge. It is too safe the feeling and I always feel like I’m in control no matter how badly I drive. When I first got FM3, I did quite a few laps with RWD super cars and the thought came to me, how come I’ve yet to lose control of a car. First time I’m playing a Forza game and I’m throwing the car about going on the grass, going full throttle sideways and still in control perfectly fine. Then I did a test and found it more or less impossible to lose control on the majority of cars classes I drove from as everything was easily recoverable. Tried a similar thing in FM4 demo, more or less the only thing that can cause losing the car is the steering sensitivity, a bit like GT5 on a pad when you get a rear tyre on the grass. Lifting off the throttle seems to fix that issue though and helps keep car in control. You can get away with some crazy stuff with no assists in that demo so will be interesting to see if they rewritten the core physics for the full release by much.

If things stay as they are T10 will no doubt beat PD but I hope PD step up and get 4 times as much staff to be on equal employee count for their next game as otherwise a big gap might appear and that will not be able to be resolved without spending a big sum of money in the future. Will be good if Sony and PD realize this now and react as their current plans to expand is not enough but the way Microsoft started T10 up, it might be counterproductive I fear. If it is then it will leave only the failing of the next Xbox console to keep GT relevant as it should be and not be destroyed by Forza. Then again, GT will most likely be ahead of PC sims in terms of physics by a good margin in the future and will most likely have the 2nd most content in any car game out by far, it is just that Forza might have double the content but being the 2nd best given the circumstances should keep bringing good sales for the GT franchise if Forza remains an exclusive.

 

[Scaff]

In my opinion GT5’s weight transfer model is quite a bit better than the FM4 demo and regarding tyres, the way you require progression in throttle is better in GT5. If you put two and two together, FM4 Demo and FM3 fall quite a bit short of creating the feeling of driving on the limit in my opinion. It becomes quite a dull experience.

I can see almost no difference in throttle progression on either title with a wheel/pedals at all, and in terms of controller while I find the 360's controller still a bit of a wierd shape its triggers are far better and more controllable that the Dual Shocks (even with trigger extensions).

That I am also taking specifically about FM4 here is quite important, you keep dragging FM3 back up (when I have already clearly stated that I find its physics and modeling to be behind GT5s) and a photo-finish with regard to FM4s demo.

The problem I have with this is you are replying specifically to posts about FM4. If I were to drag issues from GT5P up with every post I'm sure you would wonder why when discussing GT5.

When I do get the full game I will see if there is much of a difference.


It depends on if the core fundamentals of the physics got changed between the demo and the full retail version. If there has been a massive change then it will be a pleasant surprise and I’ll be the first to say it.

The core fundamentals of the physics didn't need to change between the demo and full release, but it still sounds a lot like you have already made up your mind.

You lose enough speed to be considered realistic I would say. How much mph should be dropped on a certain car to be realistic in your mind? If you get badly out of shape, you lose a lot of time, if it’s a small amount of oversteer you lose hardly any time just like in real life. Understeer loses again enough speed I would say to be believable.

I base my comparisons on my own experiences with hundreds of different cars and hundreds of hours logged at proving grounds and on track and time spent teaching driver skills and vehicle dynamics in the motor industry.

From that experience, and lets be 100% clear I have not said that GT5 doesn't do this, GT5 does not scrub enough speed off and a major part of that is down to the tyre model.

No problem.

Having looked at them now the first observation is that the first two have almost nothing at all to do with lift-off oversteer. The first one in particular.

The third one does and is interestingly a clip I posted in this thread....

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6394871#post6394871

....in which a number of others quite plainly state that FWD cars do not demonstrate realistic levels of lift-off oversteer in GT5.

Its interesting to note that at least one person who shouted down the OP then had to concede they didn't even fully understand lift-off oversteer in FWD cars and a number of others clearly state that you have to tune a car to achieve it (which for a good number of FWD cars in the game is simply not true).

You are entitled to your opinion, I can only comment on my experience of FM3 and FM4 demo to think that Forza has quite a bit to do before it recreates the feeling of driving on the ragged edge. It is too safe the feeling and I always feel like I’m in control no matter how badly I drive. When I first got FM3, I did quite a few laps with RWD super cars and the thought came to me, how come I’ve yet to lose control of a car. First time I’m playing a Forza game and I’m throwing the car about going on the grass, going full throttle sideways and still in control perfectly fine. Then I did a test and found it more or less impossible to lose control on the majority of cars classes I drove from as everything was easily recoverable. Tried a similar thing in FM4 demo, more or less the only thing that can cause losing the car is the steering sensitivity, a bit like GT5 on a pad when you get a rear tyre on the grass. Lifting off the throttle seems to fix that issue though and helps keep car in control. You can get away with some crazy stuff with no assists in that demo so will be interesting to see if they rewritten the core physics for the full release by much.

Once again with FM3 and the FM4demo, please leave that strawman alone, or I will start dragging issues with GT4 and GT5P into this. My discussion point is specifically regarding FM4 (full release and latest patches) and GT5 (full release and latest patches), other titles in the series have nothing to do with that.

Now that aside you can get away with crazy stuff in the real world and sometimes you can't (google the IoM TT track car lap record to witness a 120mph tank-slapper that lasted over 1/4 being recovered). Not all big saves are unrealistic.

As for it not being possible to lose it in FM4, my own experience and that of many others doesn't agree with you. Here's one of mine I have to hand....



....heavy understeer with no time to correct it was the cause of the accident, with speed loss from the accident and tyres demonstrated after the accident and then a good stab at realistic crashes and damage following the accident (and not the ping-pong ball effect commonly found in a number of GT5 accidents).

As far as tyre progression, load transfer and low-speed physics these two demonstrate how well FM4 deals with them.





For the sake of being open and honest the only one of the above that is tuned or modified in any way is the KGC10, which is running light street based tune, the others were stock.

If things stay as they are T10 will no doubt beat PD but I hope PD step up and get 4 times as much staff to be on equal employee count for their next game as otherwise a big gap might appear and that will not be able to be resolved without spending a big sum of money in the future. Will be good if Sony and PD realize this now and react as their current plans to expand is not enough but the way Microsoft started T10 up, it might be counterproductive I fear. If it is then it will leave only the failing of the next Xbox console to keep GT relevant as it should be and not be destroyed by Forza. Then again, GT will most likely be ahead of PC sims in terms of physics by a good margin in the future and will most likely have the 2nd most content in any car game out by far, it is just that Forza might have double the content but being the 2nd best given the circumstances should keep bringing good sales for the GT franchise if Forza remains an exclusive.

For my money, having spent considerable time with both titles FM4 already has GT5 beat in the main key areas I care about.

Physics - I believe I've said plenty on this one

Cars - GT5 has more, but I have to admit that FM4 has a list that is of more interest to me, that said both have cars the other could well do with.

Tracks - Pretty much as with cars, with the exception of the issues FM4 has with the 'ring. Its not as bad as in previous releases, but its still not right. Overall GT5s tracks have better consistency in accuracy (but not visually), however a lot of the new city and fantasy tracks in GT5 leave me quite cold in terms of layout. I do however want Spa in FM4. That said for track list (not for how well they are modelled - because its not good) little beats S2U with the classic DLC, both GT5 and FM4 could do with the bulk of those tracks added.

Visuals - When GT5 is good (premium car on premium track) then little beats it (FM4 however does come closer than many would like to admit), however when its bad its just plain bad. One of the poorer standard cars on a 'standard' track does not look good at all, add in some of the issues you get from smoke and rain and it can look plain embarrassing. Does that effect how the game plays, well yes and no, smoke and rain certainly can have an impact on performance (more on that in a moment); however graphics have never been the highest thing on my list but I would at the very least expect to see a fair degree of consistency and that we don't have with GT5.

Sound - Really do I need to?

Performance - FM4s locked 60 fps makes a big difference to me, one that I am more than happy to accept is paid for in a lack of smoke volume, night and day transitions and weather effects. GT5 however can suffer from screen tear and quite serious frame rate drops, which as you head into a corner, three cars wide and fighting for position is a big issue in a racing title for me. Now it is quite true that FM4 does drop the frame rate in the mirrors to 30 fps when things get busy and it can jar a little, but that is nothing in comparison to the entire thing dropping to 30fps or lower when things get busy.

On-line - GT5 has 'track-days' which I love and its still one of the draws for me, its something that FM4 needs in a big way, and I far prefer the GUI for GT5's on-line. However the overall performance for me on-line is better in FM4. I find the net-code to be better optimised and more robust on-line in FM4 than GT5 (as its should be - they have had longer to get it right). Issues with GT5 online have seen race events cancelled here at GTP, I've never had that happen in FM4.


Now at the end of the day a lot of the above is personal preference, but what I would like to point out is that its a personal preference based on playing both fully patched titles since release. As such its a comparison based on real experience with them and the ability to compare both back to back (and that's just the push of a button on my AV amp to do). Currently you are passing judgement on one of the titles without any accurate frame of reference, were I to be doing that with regard to GT5 (and always referring back to GT4 and GT5P) then I'm sure you would find it more than a little strange.


Scaff

 

[RBW]

I really don't have the time to read your three page essay on this debate.

Now, I own GT5, and played F4 many times also. Like many people say, GT5 is a sim. But that's not a excuse for it not to be fun. I'm not exactly saying isn't fun, but it isn't as fun as F4.

Another thing lots of people say: F4 sounds better than GT5. Which I 100% agree with. But, what would you rather have. Better car quality, or sound quality. I pick car quality any day.

I've heard that GT5 and F4 are about 50/50 on cars. Then people argue that the Standard cars don't count. But, cars like the Toyota Race Car '70, has a cockpit view just like Premium cars. So they are just as fun to drive. I think that GT5 beats F4 on cars also.

All in all, I like GT5 better. But, I'm the type that enjoys that drafting works perfectly, that the dynamics work like real life. I don't go around trying to hit other drivers for fun.

Well, that's about it...

 

[UKMikey]

Hope you have time to read this two paragraph reply.

I've heard that GT5 and F4 are about 50/50 on cars. Then people argue that the Standard cars don't count. But, cars like the Toyota Race Car '70, has a cockpit view just like Premium cars. So they are just as fun to drive. I think that GT5 beats F4 on cars also.

One car down, 700+ standard cars to go... I'm not sure that one standard car with a cockpit makes up for the vast majority of substandard vehicles in the game. Those cars also affect the overall car quality.

Also, there's more to the other game than hitting other drivers for fun. I don't race online but race online ghosts for cash. It's a lot more fun than grinding for dollars.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I can see almost no difference in throttle progression on either title with a wheel/pedals at all, and in terms of controller while I find the 360's controller still a bit of a wierd shape its triggers are far better and more controllable that the Dual Shocks (even with trigger extensions).

That I am also taking specifically about FM4 here is quite important, you keep dragging FM3 back up (when I have already clearly stated that I find its physics and modeling to be behind GT5s) and a photo-finish with regard to FM4s demo.

The problem I have with this is you are replying specifically to posts about FM4. If I were to drag issues from GT5P up with every post I'm sure you would wonder why when discussing GT5.

Surely you would see a difference as you mention GT’s comfort tyres going grip to nothing. If you are on about controller inputs, I guess you interpreted me wrongly but that is my fault. I mean progression in throttle required for good traction out of corners.

I can only say about FM4 demo being my recent experience and FM3 being the last full game I own.

It is like if you had only tried GT HD and GT5P JP demo and I got the full retail original spec of the game before you on top of having the demo. If I said to you that GT5P full retail has improved by quite a step and that none of your impressions should apply to GT5P even if you watched videos of the retail game and see the same behaviour of cars you had issues with say in the demo, would you take my word for it? The different version card gets played out when I say my impressions of FM3 and FM4 demo and I guess it will head that way when I get FM4. By the way you did say FM4 demo was a small way head.

The core fundamentals of the physics didn't need to change between the demo and full release, but it still sounds a lot like you have already made up your mind.

If there is not a big enough change from the FM4 demo, surely my experience will be very similar. It only takes about an hour to get really used to the physics of a game whether it be arcade or sim and only the game can change my perception. I’m not going lie about what I can and can’t do and will make a video showing this. Whether that draws people to say I’m playing a different game or using all aids with the video showing clearly I’m not will always bring up discussion. There was quite a few people in denial in regards to stuff you could do in FM3, whether it is possible to do the same stuff on retail FM4 copy I will find out this year. I mean there is already a sign of denial, for example this post: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6285538#post6285538
And this is a similar posting style of comments regarding FM3 videos when videos clearly show no assists.

I base my comparisons on my own experiences with hundreds of different cars and hundreds of hours logged at proving grounds and on track and time spent teaching driver skills and vehicle dynamics in the motor industry.

From that experience, and lets be 100% clear I have not said that GT5 doesn't do this, GT5 does not scrub enough speed off and a major part of that is down to the tyre model.

I know that you have. However like all of these sim games, you have people like yourself and also racing drivers preferring one game to another. Can you quantify how much in a speed should be scrubbed off in a certain situation? I can just go by telemetry data of onboard videos and oversteer seems to be done well in GT5, there is not really many videos showing understeer but going off videos I’ve seen off people lifting off and the speed lost as well time, I would say GT5 is in the ball park of being quite accurate. It really depends on what your perception is like your perception of the Comfort tyres in GT5 is very different to what I experience.

Having looked at them now the first observation is that the first two have almost nothing at all to do with lift-off oversteer. The first one in particular.

The third one does and is interestingly a clip I posted in this thread....

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6394871#post6394871

....in which a number of others quite plainly state that FWD cars do not demonstrate realistic levels of lift-off oversteer in GT5.

Its interesting to note that at least one person who shouted down the OP then had to concede they didn't even fully understand lift-off oversteer in FWD cars and a number of others clearly state that you have to tune a car to achieve it (which for a good number of FWD cars in the game is simply not true).

I agree, should have labelled it really techniques to deal with FWD understeer.

The person said they are not familiar with FF cars afterwards so really it is conceding to something they particularly are not clued up in. Also saying they have never heard of Renault or Peugeot really shows the person is not the best person to make an example of.

Also one of the people sided with the FWD cars not demonstrating realistic levels of lift-off oversteer in GT5.thinks the 205 GTI is in GT5 when it is not. Using most likely a 4WD 205 to try and demonstrate FWD lift-off oversteer is not really the best idea.

Going back to the videos I posted, in GT5 I messed around before and then went on YouTube to find videos similar to what I experienced. The drifting video was the one that impressed me the most as I was using the exact same technique in the game which I only found out by messing around with the e-brake. The circuit driving one is generally the technique I use when dealing with understeer while racing in-game. Finally the main video we are talking about, with the steering input and throttle lifting off I experienced the short lift-off oversteer moments he experienced using stock FWD cars. Also techniques like going full throttle Chris Harris mentioned to correct FWD cars and also handbrake technique he showed is well represented in GT5.

Once again with FM3 and the FM4demo, please leave that strawman alone, or I will start dragging issues with GT4 and GT5P into this. My discussion point is specifically regarding FM4 (full release and latest patches) and GT5 (full release and latest patches), other titles in the series have nothing to do with that.

Now that aside you can get away with crazy stuff in the real world and sometimes you can't (google the IoM TT track car lap record to witness a 120mph tank-slapper that lasted over 1/4 being recovered). Not all big saves are unrealistic.

As for it not being possible to lose it in FM4, my own experience and that of many others doesn't agree with you. Here's one of mine I have to hand....



....heavy understeer with no time to correct it was the cause of the accident, with speed loss from the accident and tyres demonstrated after the accident and then a good stab at realistic crashes and damage following the accident (and not the ping-pong ball effect commonly found in a number of GT5 accidents).

As far as tyre progression, load transfer and low-speed physics these two demonstrate how well FM4 deals with them.





For the sake of being open and honest the only one of the above that is tuned or modified in any way is the KGC10, which is running light street based tune, the others were stock.

There is no GT5 demo so it is not really the same, mine is comparing to a recent build of a game because I don’t have the full game as you know.

When I mean crazy stuff, I really mean crazy stuff. I have seen that video before and that will not even be classed as minor compared to what I can do in, you guessed FM4 demo and FM3. In GT5 yes, that is a big moment, I have had similar moments in the game, some I saved, some I lost. What I will try and show depending on if the full retail game has similar car dynamics as the demo is crazy unrealistic stuff beyond comprehension all while remaining in control with ease. If the game does not allow it, I won’t be able to show it simple as that and will praise T10 for fixing the issues.

Hopefully I can get hold of a wheel as I’m not very good with a pad to test the physics engine. You may be thinking now that I’m only going to get the game with intent to insult it but it is far from the case. Actually I want to see how competitive I can be on the rivals and I really want to get a wheel to see as I have tried with a pad on the demo and as I’m not very good with it I was way off the pace in the demo. Best thing about rivals is that I don’t need a gold account to play it.

About losing control of cars, your video shows what can be done in just about any game going into a corner too fast. I am talking about losing control of the car due to unbalancing the car through weight transfer and then trying to keep control of it. In FM4 demo and FM3 there is no real edge apart from the demo having the speed sensitivity on the controller causing overcorrection when sliding but like I mentioned before, this can be solved by not using the throttle and countersteering which is a bit strange but it works.

The way that Integra crashed initially seems unrealistic, the problem with both games is they will never be able to do realistic crash damage until they are allowed to do chassis deformation, get punctures and that will result to race ending crashes. As cars in both games chassis are not physically destructible, there will not be crumpling of the cars and that will always result in problems for the crash physics to deal with.

The other two videos show stuff that is also possible to do in GT5. Maybe the last part of the Morgan video is not easily doable to get a slide then correct it straightaway like you did, was it easy to correct for you in FM4?

For my money, having spent considerable time with both titles FM4 already has GT5 beat in the main key areas I care about.

Physics - I believe I've said plenty on this one

Cars - GT5 has more, but I have to admit that FM4 has a list that is of more interest to me, that said both have cars the other could well do with.

Tracks - Pretty much as with cars, with the exception of the issues FM4 has with the 'ring. Its not as bad as in previous releases, but its still not right. Overall GT5s tracks have better consistency in accuracy (but not visually), however a lot of the new city and fantasy tracks in GT5 leave me quite cold in terms of layout. I do however want Spa in FM4. That said for track list (not for how well they are modelled - because its not good) little beats S2U with the classic DLC, both GT5 and FM4 could do with the bulk of those tracks added.

Visuals - When GT5 is good (premium car on premium track) then little beats it (FM4 however does come closer than many would like to admit), however when its bad its just plain bad. One of the poorer standard cars on a 'standard' track does not look good at all, add in some of the issues you get from smoke and rain and it can look plain embarrassing. Does that effect how the game plays, well yes and no, smoke and rain certainly can have an impact on performance (more on that in a moment); however graphics have never been the highest thing on my list but I would at the very least expect to see a fair degree of consistency and that we don't have with GT5.

Sound - Really do I need to?

Performance - FM4s locked 60 fps makes a big difference to me, one that I am more than happy to accept is paid for in a lack of smoke volume, night and day transitions and weather effects. GT5 however can suffer from screen tear and quite serious frame rate drops, which as you head into a corner, three cars wide and fighting for position is a big issue in a racing title for me. Now it is quite true that FM4 does drop the frame rate in the mirrors to 30 fps when things get busy and it can jar a little, but that is nothing in comparison to the entire thing dropping to 30fps or lower when things get busy.

On-line - GT5 has 'track-days' which I love and its still one of the draws for me, its something that FM4 needs in a big way, and I far prefer the GUI for GT5's on-line. However the overall performance for me on-line is better in FM4. I find the net-code to be better optimised and more robust on-line in FM4 than GT5 (as its should be - they have had longer to get it right). Issues with GT5 online have seen race events cancelled here at GTP, I've never had that happen in FM4.


Now at the end of the day a lot of the above is personal preference, but what I would like to point out is that its a personal preference based on playing both fully patched titles since release. As such its a comparison based on real experience with them and the ability to compare both back to back (and that's just the push of a button on my AV amp to do). Currently you are passing judgement on one of the titles without any accurate frame of reference, were I to be doing that with regard to GT5 (and always referring back to GT4 and GT5P) then I'm sure you would find it more than a little strange.


Scaff

Again as I don’t have Forza 4 full retail I can just say about my recent Forza experience and HD videos of the retail game.

Physics – GT5 is quite a clear step ahead and it will take a big step from FM4 demo to full release to change that. It is really in the weight transfer department I would say.

Cars – GT5 has for me the variety of cars I want. It is always have good to have more. FM4 has a good car list but for me it does not have the range of GT5.

Tracks – GT5 could do with more real world tracks and so could Forza. Accuracy in tracks like you mention in GT5 is more consistent but visually I would say that is also the case. As you mentioned Shift, F1 games offer quite a lot of real world tracks too.


Visuals – GT5 does have two standards. There are two levels of consistency as a result. You will know if you will get high level visuals before you even enter the track with the car. Forza the visuals consistently is not really that great but also not really poor. Both games should look quite a bit better on the next consoles so visuals will be less of an issue. One thing I have to mention is the environments in real world tracks. GT5 is made to look like as close as possible to real life while Forza seems to try and recreate a different environment to what the real track is and that kills immersion. That is why if you compare recently modelled or older tracks in FM4 to real life videos, you can see Forza in general is not as close in terms of realisms of the look of the track as GT5 is. Some Forza tracks such as Circuit de Catalunya look better in terms of realism than others in the game.

Sound – GT5 does seem too generic. PD could make it sound a lot better to peoples’ ears even using the current sounds. An example is driving the 2J in cockpit view and pressing rear view button, it sounds much better so if that source of sound is replicated in driving views, people may like it better even if it may not be realistic. Forza can be a bit over the top with its Hollywood effects but in general noise from the engines is quite a bit better than GT5. Cockpit view loudness is a bit OTT I think, both games still got a long way to go to replicating accurate sounds and I wonder if it they are limited due to console memory potentially.

Performance – Well if you drive in the same conditions as Forza in GT5, frame rate stays high. If you want to drive in conditions Forza does not offer in GT5, then you will get frame drops quite big especially in the wet in night with loads of cars side by side. It is good to have the option to and really it would be a miracle if PD could pull that off at a constant 60FPS.

Online – Never raced in Forza, and only a few times in GT5. It was good fun the races I have done so far, probably in total about 15. The track day element I really like too. You can get quite close racing and also having a good list of friends on PSN helps.

I would find it strange because I’m comparing a recent build of the game and also videos of the full game to compare (Which should be some form of accurate reference) while GT4 will not be in regards to GT5. I only mention Forza 3 due to saying what experience carries over to FM4 demo.

 

[Scaff]

Surely you would see a difference as you mention GT’s comfort tyres going grip to nothing. If you are on about controller inputs, I guess you interpreted me wrongly but that is my fault. I mean progression in throttle required for good traction out of corners.

That was not how I read it at all.

I can only say about FM4 demo being my recent experience and FM3 being the last full game I own.

It is like if you had only tried GT HD and GT5P JP demo and I got the full retail original spec of the game before you on top of having the demo. If I said to you that GT5P full retail has improved by quite a step and that none of your impressions should apply to GT5P even if you watched videos of the retail game and see the same behaviour of cars you had issues with say in the demo, would you take my word for it? The different version card gets played out when I say my impressions of FM3 and FM4 demo and I guess it will head that way when I get FM4. By the way you did say FM4 demo was a small way head.

To be blunt until you have hands-on experience with a patched version of FM4 you should refrain from commenting on it in such a definitive manner, and no videos are not a good enough substitute.

If there is not a big enough change from the FM4 demo, surely my experience will be very similar. It only takes about an hour to get really used to the physics of a game whether it be arcade or sim and only the game can change my perception. I’m not going lie about what I can and can’t do and will make a video showing this. Whether that draws people to say I’m playing a different game or using all aids with the video showing clearly I’m not will always bring up discussion. There was quite a few people in denial in regards to stuff you could do in FM3, whether it is possible to do the same stuff on retail FM4 copy I will find out this year. I mean there is already a sign of denial, for example this post: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6285538#post6285538
And this is a similar posting style of comments regarding FM3 videos when videos clearly show no assists.

Could you link me to the video you have put together showing the issues you have with GT5.

I know that you have. However like all of these sim games, you have people like yourself and also racing drivers preferring one game to another. Can you quantify how much in a speed should be scrubbed off in a certain situation? I can just go by telemetry data of onboard videos and oversteer seems to be done well in GT5, there is not really many videos showing understeer but going off videos I’ve seen off people lifting off and the speed lost as well time, I would say GT5 is in the ball park of being quite accurate. It really depends on what your perception is like your perception of the Comfort tyres in GT5 is very different to what I experience.

A question, could you please detail your real world driving experience.

I agree, should have labelled it really techniques to deal with FWD understeer.

The person said they are not familiar with FF cars afterwards so really it is conceding to something they particularly are not clued up in. Also saying they have never heard of Renault or Peugeot really shows the person is not the best person to make an example of.

Also one of the people sided with the FWD cars not demonstrating realistic levels of lift-off oversteer in GT5.thinks the 205 GTI is in GT5 when it is not. Using most likely a 4WD 205 to try and demonstrate FWD lift-off oversteer is not really the best idea.

Going back to the videos I posted, in GT5 I messed around before and then went on YouTube to find videos similar to what I experienced. The drifting video was the one that impressed me the most as I was using the exact same technique in the game which I only found out by messing around with the e-brake. The circuit driving one is generally the technique I use when dealing with understeer while racing in-game. Finally the main video we are talking about, with the steering input and throttle lifting off I experienced the short lift-off oversteer moments he experienced using stock FWD cars. Also techniques like going full throttle Chris Harris mentioned to correct FWD cars and also handbrake technique he showed is well represented in GT5.

How many of these techniques have you experienced in real life?

There is no GT5 demo so it is not really the same, mine is comparing to a recent build of a game because I don’t have the full game as you know.

Then once again I would ask that you stop being so definitive and stop using FM3 and the demo to rebut points about the full game.

When I mean crazy stuff, I really mean crazy stuff. I have seen that video before and that will not even be classed as minor compared to what I can do in, you guessed FM4 demo and FM3. In GT5 yes, that is a big moment, I have had similar moments in the game, some I saved, some I lost. What I will try and show depending on if the full retail game has similar car dynamics as the demo is crazy unrealistic stuff beyond comprehension all while remaining in control with ease. If the game does not allow it, I won’t be able to show it simple as that and will praise T10 for fixing the issues.

I'm sorry are you saying that the 120mph tank slapper that lasted for 1/4 mile on the IoM TT track is minor in comparison to what you can do in either FM3 or the FM4 demo?

If so please provide a detailed explanation of exactly what you mean.

Hopefully I can get hold of a wheel as I’m not very good with a pad to test the physics engine. You may be thinking now that I’m only going to get the game with intent to insult it but it is far from the case. Actually I want to see how competitive I can be on the rivals and I really want to get a wheel to see as I have tried with a pad on the demo and as I’m not very good with it I was way off the pace in the demo. Best thing about rivals is that I don’t need a gold account to play it.

So did you use a pad to test the demo, while now admitting you are not good at evaluating physics with one?

About losing control of cars, your video shows what can be done in just about any game going into a corner too fast. I am talking about losing control of the car due to unbalancing the car through weight transfer and then trying to keep control of it. In FM4 demo and FM3 there is no real edge apart from the demo having the speed sensitivity on the controller causing overcorrection when sliding but like I mentioned before, this can be solved by not using the throttle and countersteering which is a bit strange but it works.

Videos will be provided.

However are you saying that minor oversteer can't be corrected with just countersteer?

The way that Integra crashed initially seems unrealistic, the problem with both games is they will never be able to do realistic crash damage until they are allowed to do chassis deformation, get punctures and that will result to race ending crashes. As cars in both games chassis are not physically destructible, there will not be crumpling of the cars and that will always result in problems for the crash physics to deal with.

FM4's damage is honestly a world away from that in GT5, while you can't get punctures or totally DNF a car, what you do get is damage to such a degree that the end result is the same.

That race was over for me, last place finish as a result of the damage caused in a single accident.

You will also notice the sound of the accident (while still not right) is a lot better that GT5s 'card-board box being punched', as is the behaviour of the cars themselves.

The other two videos show stuff that is also possible to do in GT5. Maybe the last part of the Morgan video is not easily doable to get a slide then correct it straightaway like you did, was it easy to correct for you in FM4?

I strongly dispute that the first one can be done in GT5 as easily as it can be done in both the real world and FM4 (if you know what you are doing).


As for the Morgan video, the car is a real handful and no its not easy to correct at all, what is interesting however is your comment regarding my correction not being easily doable in GT5. Watch this from 5:45 onwards.



Same car, same track, same correction, near same body behaviour.

Again as I don’t have Forza 4 full retail I can just say about my recent Forza experience and HD videos of the retail game.


I would find it strange because I’m comparing a recent build of the game and also videos of the full game to compare (Which should be some form of accurate reference) while GT4 will not be in regards to GT5. I only mention Forza 3 due to saying what experience carries over to FM4 demo.

Then to be blunt I'm going to ignore it until you are going to do a like for like comparison.


Scaff

 

[RBW]

Also, there's more to the other game than hitting other drivers for fun. I don't race online but race online ghosts for cash. It's a lot more fun than grinding for dollars.

I don't like the whole grinding thing. It's cheating, and there's a reason why GT5 didn't add a "re-play race" button.

The ghost racing sounds cool. I've never tried it.

 

[Scaff]

About losing control of cars, your video shows what can be done in just about any game going into a corner too fast. I am talking about losing control of the car due to unbalancing the car through weight transfer and then trying to keep control of it. In FM4 demo and FM3 there is no real edge apart from the demo having the speed sensitivity on the controller causing overcorrection when sliding but like I mentioned before, this can be solved by not using the throttle and countersteering which is a bit strange but it works.

Videos as promised.

Its a Shelby Cobra SC at the TG test track, both clips are taken from the second lap so the tyres were nice and warm.



That's the result of applying correction just a little to late and as you can see even with full lock its can't be saved.

What is nice and clear in the video is the tyre deformation, which can easily be seen around the 12 second mark.



The second clip shows what happens if you don't attempt to correct for torque steer at launch, zero steering was used in this (quite literally the steering wheel is straight for all of it).




The full replay is up on my storefront (GT = ScaffGTP) for anyone to check and also view the telemetry - no shenanigans).


Scaff

 

[Saidur_Ali]

That was not how I read it at all.

Hence why I said it is my fault.

To be blunt until you have hands-on experience with a patched version of FM4 you should refrain from commenting on it in such a definitive manner, and no videos are not a good enough substitute.

I am not putting it in such a definitive manner; I am only saying it in regards to FM3 and FM4 demo. Videos I find a good substitute for me and I have learnt a lot through watching a lap of someone driving whether it is on a PC or console game and also watching real world clips helps you realise techniques that can be used in sim games. In fact a good example is I started watching properly F1 since 2009 due to BBC coverage. Before that I used to struggle to get bronze in GT4 license tests. After seeing F1, I thought to myself, it is really basic concepts that are required to go reasonably fast, so put in GT4, don’t think I played it for a good couple of years and then started doing licence tests. I managed to Gold all licence tests and missions by understanding simple braking points and when to accelerate out of corners. Maybe also being a few years older helped too.

Could you link me to the video you have put together showing the issues you have with GT5.

I don’t really do tuning; only use other peoples setups so tuning flaws I’m unlikely to encounter as such and the flaws have been already posted on YouTube by other people. I never made a video showing FM3 flaws, as it is already been posted on YouTube. Anyway you want a video, here is a link to a post on one of the few threads I’ve created (It is at the bottom of this post):
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5766250#post5766250
I think some of the terms I used such as loads of grip is wrong, but I think you will know the idea I’m trying to put forward in that thread. The F1 car has really high levels of stability and very high levels of traction but it has high levels of understeer which is expected with downforce levels at a minimum. The problem I think is due to the tyre model being quite basic. In for example rFactor, the tyre temperatures make an F1 car behaviour react in a way that is logical from my experience watching F1 videos. Overheat tyres and you start sliding around a lot. GT5’s tyre model does not really take heat into account and it can only really simulate only ideal conditions. Don’t think tyre temperature is the issue there though, I think it is something regarding suspension, wing and the tyres.

How many of these techniques have you experienced in real life?

Most likely none. Still does not change what I experienced in the game and those videos matching up with my experience.

A question, could you please detail your real world driving experience.

Very little. I have a full UK driving licence, and my own car. However you probably interested in performance driving and really that is only one karting race. It was a few months before GT5 got released. Anyway this is the event I did and my older brother also went: http://www.buckmore.co.uk/content.php/32520

My older brother has more experience driving cars than me. Cars ranging from Clio 172’s, 3 Series M Sport, S class and he recently experienced driving the SLS AMG. Shame I never got picked for that SLS AMG competition, otherwise I could have potentially beaten David Coulthard in the live race. My brother, really the most experience he has had in GT5 is when he did the laps on the GT5 racing pods there but back in the day he was a Super Mario Kart expert.

Anyway back to the karting race, my target was to beat my brother, he thought I’d lose as I had not even had a driving licence then and last time I drove any car was about 9 months ago, was away at Uni. Anyway, he qualified in front of me by about 1.8 seconds, I qualified near the back 33 out of 35. Spent a lot of time looking back as most where experienced, I think we even had a pro karter in the race. Anyway within a few laps I did a time that is like over 4 seconds quicker than my qualifying time which is not bad but then next lap span testing the brakes (Interestingly braking in karts is also a problem I find I have in GT5). Then I thought it was not a good idea to push as there are quite a lot of karts going round and I didn’t want to get hit and I knew I had already overtaken my brother. Anyway I finished 7 places ahead of my brother. He struggled to look behind and move out the way for faster drivers so crashed a few times. I think my GT5P driving experience helped here, as being used to driving things like the F2007 in the game, I could be aware of everyone around me and look back when going at the highest speed you can go on that track with that specific kart, no problem (About 49Mph). Near the end I lapped him, and could see why people crashed into him, he was not even looking at me when I was side by side and would have run me of the track if I had not backed out. Overtook him when he made a mistake shortly afterwards.

Back to the main point, I’m quite young still, only 20, and really without being involved in the motor industry or being some form of racing driver it is unlikely I will experience things I mention in games unless I go on them experience day things. I plan on actually doing a proper one of them experience day things in the near future. There are probably some top karters who haven’t experienced the things I mentioned in the games as really you need to be involved in road cars. The last person you replied to on this thread had a racing license and you disagreed with him so don’t go out and say, unless I’ve done this and that for real, my experience in the games I’ve played means pretty much nothing.

Then once again I would ask that you stop being so definitive and stop using FM3 and the demo to rebut points about the full game.

I’m not though am I, just saying my recent experience and will be interesting to see how it compares to the full game. I am not saying it as a fact.

I'm sorry are you saying that the 120mph tank slapper that lasted for 1/4 mile on the IoM TT track is minor in comparison to what you can do in either FM3 or the FM4 demo?

If so please provide a detailed explanation of exactly what you mean.

I think this video more or less explains it. Surely you would not class this as realistic car behaviour for an Enzo? I am probably a better driver than that person in that video so I could probably make a more extreme example of that in FM3 if I wanted to. FM4 demo is not as bad as FM3, but I think with a wheel which will give me more control, I would be able to make a similar video.

So did you use a pad to test the demo, while now admitting you are not good at evaluating physics with one?

I did use a pad as I don’t have a wheel for Xbox 360 as you know. I did not admit I am not good at evaluating physics with one. I can see where I’m losing time compared to someone using a wheel. Still on the rivals I think I would be in the top half percent in the world which is not bad after spending a few hours driving the Zonda Cinque. First time I’ve ever gone online with a 360 too so really had no one on friends list to compare to but most likely I was quicker than most people on here considering this: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=223212

Videos will be provided.

However are you saying that minor oversteer can't be corrected with just countersteer?

I think it is quite a driver dependent thing as well.

Minor oversteer can be corrected with just countersteer, just really major oversteer moments at high speed is more resolvable by lifting off throttle and countersteering in the demo with a pad.

Regarding demo, I was not the only one to experience such a thing, even amar212 said this:

If you want to deliberately spin the car, you really have to make an effort - and spinning a F458 with all assists off in full-acceleration should be a given. It is not unfortunately.

FM4's damage is honestly a world away from that in GT5, while you can't get punctures or totally DNF a car, what you do get is damage to such a degree that the end result is the same.

That race was over for me, last place finish as a result of the damage caused in a single accident.

You will also notice the sound of the accident (while still not right) is a lot better that GT5s 'card-board box being punched', as is the behaviour of the cars themselves.

If you say so. The sound of the accident really shows the Hollywood style effects.

I strongly dispute that the first one can be done in GT5 as easily as it can be done in both the real world and FM4 (if you know what you are doing).


As for the Morgan video, the car is a real handful and no its not easy to correct at all, what is interesting however is your comment regarding my correction not being easily doable in GT5. Watch this from 5:45 onwards.



Same car, same track, same correction, near same body behaviour.

Having a 2nd look and looking at the specs of the car, I’m not too sure if that car could do it in GT5 in stock form. I would be interested to see a launch of the 1970 Nissan Datsun 510.

The last part of your Forza video is not represented in that Top Gear video. I have seen the video before. Only the early part of your Forza video is and that part I find realistic.

By the way it is not the same track but then again, who am I to say that considering I don’t have the full game and basing it on what the videos show me .

Then to be blunt I'm going to ignore it until you are going to do a like for like comparison.


Scaff

You can do as you wish.


The recent videos you posted I believe you could lose the car in a similar manner in FM3. If you have time, try it and see if that is the case. The behaviour shown of the FM3 Enzo video I posted above is the kind of behaviour I’m interested to seeing if it is possible to replicate in FM4.

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

@Scaff, I respect your opinion because of your past "history with the GT series" and your IRL experience. There are those with little to no experience that are trying their hardest to dispel the obvious virtues of an excellent simulator (Forza 4). Many of us have a PS3 and GT5, have an Xbox and Forza 4, what motive would we have to give a biased only opinions; we have an investment in both. I hold allegiance to no one, just provide the software for my virtual racing addiction and I could care less on the platform or developer. If anyone is truly a virtual racing enthusiast, they would have both.
If they have not driven Forza 4 with a good wheel with no assists and simulation steering what good are their contributions to this thread. If they prefer GT more power to them; they should continue spending time lapping Nordschleife for the millionth time and be happy instead of trying to carry on an intelligent debate.

Note, 9 times out of 10 I can lap Nordshcleife faster in GT5 than I can in Forza 4 - in identical cars - using a Fanatec cross-platform wheel. If Forza was so easy I should be beating my GT times right?

 

[tribolik]

Note, 9 times out of 10 I can lap Nordshcleife faster in GT5 than I can in Forza 4 - in identical cars - using a Fanatec cross-platform wheel. If Forza was so easy I should be beating my GT times right?

Well theres also the fact that FM4 version of the ring is longer (by a few miles) so that might be it.

But the fact is that FM4 seems to be a better game all around.

 

[Vaxxtx]

saidur_ali, without actually playing the game as Fuzzy, and Scaff had said, what grounds do you even have to discuss this?

I can be certain if someone told me its better to vacation in New York over L.A., I would not be able to debate them. See, I have only been to L.A. I can talk about all the great things that are there, and kind of know about New York, from movies, news, and accounts from other people. I would NOT get into a debate over it unless I had been there, and made my own mind up.

Either wait until you have the game with a proper wheel for comparison, or just keep enjoying GT5, and close your eyes to other games. But please stop bringing up Demos and FM3. Its like listening to a mechanic tell someone how to do brain surgery.