FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[UKMikey]

I don't like the whole grinding thing. It's cheating, and there's a reason why GT5 didn't add a "re-play race" button.

The ghost racing sounds cool. I've never tried it.

Regrettably, when I bought the game on release there was little choice but to grind as there were no seasonals yet.

Rivals mode is one of the coolest things about Forza (the online ghosts mode). It's been described as a licence to print money (credits).

 

[FyreandIce]

But, I'm the type that enjoys that drafting works perfectly, that the dynamics work like real life.

Odd that you prefer GT5 than.

 

[Scaff]

I am not putting it in such a definitive manner; I am only saying it in regards to FM3 and FM4 demo. Videos I find a good substitute for me and I have learnt a lot through watching a lap of someone driving whether it is on a PC or console game and also watching real world clips helps you realise techniques that can be used in sim games. In fact a good example is I started watching properly F1 since 2009 due to BBC coverage. Before that I used to struggle to get bronze in GT4 license tests. After seeing F1, I thought to myself, it is really basic concepts that are required to go reasonably fast, so put in GT4, don’t think I played it for a good couple of years and then started doing licence tests. I managed to Gold all licence tests and missions by understanding simple braking points and when to accelerate out of corners. Maybe also being a few years older helped too.

Video's let you know nothing about how progressive tyres are, yet that a major part of what we are discussing here.

You can't discuss feel without first hand experience.

I don’t really do tuning; only use other peoples setups so tuning flaws I’m unlikely to encounter as such and the flaws have been already posted on YouTube by other people. I never made a video showing FM3 flaws, as it is already been posted on YouTube. Anyway you want a video, here is a link to a post on one of the few threads I’ve created (It is at the bottom of this post):
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5766250#post5766250
I think some of the terms I used such as loads of grip is wrong, but I think you will know the idea I’m trying to put forward in that thread. The F1 car has really high levels of stability and very high levels of traction but it has high levels of understeer which is expected with downforce levels at a minimum. The problem I think is due to the tyre model being quite basic. In for example rFactor, the tyre temperatures make an F1 car behaviour react in a way that is logical from my experience watching F1 videos. Overheat tyres and you start sliding around a lot. GT5’s tyre model does not really take heat into account and it can only really simulate only ideal conditions. Don’t think tyre temperature is the issue there though, I think it is something regarding suspension, wing and the tyres.

Tuning is far from the only thing wrong with GT5, it is however one of the main reasons why I have given up on it to a large degree, when I can't apply real world theory to tuning that kind of kill sit for me.

However a question for you. Why do you think the tuning is off and you can't apply real world techniques to it?

Most likely none. Still does not change what I experienced in the game and those videos matching up with my experience.

Very little. I have a full UK driving licence, and my own car. However you probably interested in performance driving and really that is only one karting race. It was a few months before GT5 got released. Anyway this is the event I did and my older brother also went: http://www.buckmore.co.uk/content.php/32520

My older brother has more experience driving cars than me. Cars ranging from Clio 172’s, 3 Series M Sport, S class and he recently experienced driving the SLS AMG. Shame I never got picked for that SLS AMG competition, otherwise I could have potentially beaten David Coulthard in the live race. My brother, really the most experience he has had in GT5 is when he did the laps on the GT5 racing pods there but back in the day he was a Super Mario Kart expert.

Anyway back to the karting race, my target was to beat my brother, he thought I’d lose as I had not even had a driving licence then and last time I drove any car was about 9 months ago, was away at Uni. Anyway, he qualified in front of me by about 1.8 seconds, I qualified near the back 33 out of 35. Spent a lot of time looking back as most where experienced, I think we even had a pro karter in the race. Anyway within a few laps I did a time that is like over 4 seconds quicker than my qualifying time which is not bad but then next lap span testing the brakes (Interestingly braking in karts is also a problem I find I have in GT5). Then I thought it was not a good idea to push as there are quite a lot of karts going round and I didn’t want to get hit and I knew I had already overtaken my brother. Anyway I finished 7 places ahead of my brother. He struggled to look behind and move out the way for faster drivers so crashed a few times. I think my GT5P driving experience helped here, as being used to driving things like the F2007 in the game, I could be aware of everyone around me and look back when going at the highest speed you can go on that track with that specific kart, no problem (About 49Mph). Near the end I lapped him, and could see why people crashed into him, he was not even looking at me when I was side by side and would have run me of the track if I had not backed out. Overtook him when he made a mistake shortly afterwards.

Back to the main point, I’m quite young still, only 20, and really without being involved in the motor industry or being some form of racing driver it is unlikely I will experience things I mention in games unless I go on them experience day things. I plan on actually doing a proper one of them experience day things in the near future. There are probably some top karters who haven’t experienced the things I mentioned in the games as really you need to be involved in road cars. The last person you replied to on this thread had a racing license and you disagreed with him so don’t go out and say, unless I’ve done this and that for real, my experience in the games I’ve played means pretty much nothing.


I’m not though am I, just saying my recent experience and will be interesting to see how it compares to the full game. I am not saying it as a fact.

So you have little real world experience of these situations, little track driving experience and are basing a lot of what you claim of videos, but I'm the one that's wrong?

I think this video more or less explains it. Surely you would not class this as realistic car behaviour for an Enzo? I am probably a better driver than that person in that video so I could probably make a more extreme example of that in FM3 if I wanted to. FM4 demo is not as bad as FM3, but I think with a wheel which will give me more control, I would be able to make a similar video.


I did use a pad as I don’t have a wheel for Xbox 360 as you know. I did not admit I am not good at evaluating physics with one. I can see where I’m losing time compared to someone using a wheel. Still on the rivals I think I would be in the top half percent in the world which is not bad after spending a few hours driving the Zonda Cinque. First time I’ve ever gone online with a 360 too so really had no one on friends list to compare to but most likely I was quicker than most people on here considering this: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=223212

Will review this video and pass comment when I am not at work, as before I can't view it at the moment.

I think it is quite a driver dependent thing as well.

Minor oversteer can be corrected with just countersteer, just really major oversteer moments at high speed is more resolvable by lifting off throttle and countersteering in the demo with a pad.

Not on the full version they can't, I would also be interested to see you comments on the new videos I have posted, in particular the second one and if you are able to recreate it in GT5 (because I can't).

Regarding demo, I was not the only one to experience such a thing, even amar212 said this:

Demo being the key point and I would disagree with Amar on this point as well.

If you say so. The sound of the accident really shows the Hollywood style effects.

Seriously are you saying that FM4's crash sounds are worse that GT5's?

Having a 2nd look and looking at the specs of the car, I’m not too sure if that car could do it in GT5 in stock form. I would be interested to see a launch of the 1970 Nissan Datsun 510.

Why the 510 particularly (not that its a problem - just interested)

The last part of your Forza video is not represented in that Top Gear video. I have seen the video before. Only the early part of your Forza video is and that part I find realistic.

I simply don't have time to recreate the entire thing, but it may be of interest to note that I recorded the FM4 clip before I saw the TG one.

By the way it is not the same track but then again, who am I to say that considering I don’t have the full game and basing it on what the videos show me .

As far as I'm aware its simply a different part of Dunsfold, however that would make little difference, particularly as the new Cobra videos are on the TG track. In fact both the car and track are in GT5 so you can try and replicate in GT5 (I have done back to backs and would be interested to hear from you on this).

The recent videos you posted I believe you could lose the car in a similar manner in FM3. If you have time, try it and see if that is the case. The behaviour shown of the FM3 Enzo video I posted above is the kind of behaviour I’m interested to seeing if it is possible to replicate in FM4.

And what is wrong with the way the car is losing it in the recent videos?

Do you believe its a realistic lose of control, and why.


Scaff

 

[MagpieRacer]

He is right about it not being Dunsfold, Bruntingthorpe is quite a way from it. http://g.co/maps/tcykm

However, like most others have said this is a pretty silly discussion as we have one person who has not even played the full title..

 

[Scaff]

He is right about it not being Dunsfold, Bruntingthorpe is quite a way from it. http://g.co/maps/tcykm

However, like most others have said this is a pretty silly discussion as we have one person who has not even played the full title..

My bad on that one, but I don't see how that would change things to any significant degree.


Scaff

 

[Brend]

Note, 9 times out of 10 I can lap Nordshcleife faster in GT5 than I can in Forza 4 - in identical cars - using a Fanatec cross-platform wheel. If Forza was so easy I should be beating my GT times right?

No, it's a well known fact that one of Forza's downfalls is it's inaccurate Nurb.

 

[MagpieRacer]

My bad on that one, but I don't see how that would change things to any significant degree.


Scaff

It doesn't He still hasn't played it

 

[HBK]

I think this video more or less explains it.

This may be the point, but this video is definitely from FM3 (I thought we were discussing FM4 and GT5 in their latest installments aka. patches).

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

Well theres also the fact that FM4 version of the ring is longer (by a few miles) so that might be it.

But the fact is that FM4 seems to be a better game all around.

FM4 lists the Nordschleife length as 12.9 miles, GT5 has it at 12.95 miles. I know the scale has been debated.
But I shouldn't have just used Nordschleife as an example, I usually am faster in GT on other tracks also - comparing apples to apples (wheel/pedals, cars, etc.).
I can throw the cars around more in GT - it feels a "little" more arcade to me than FM4 because of this; fun, but more forgiving.

No, it's a well known fact that one of Forza's downfalls is it's inaccurate Nurb.

So you are say the "accuracies" of GT5 allows me to drive faster? Without much trouble, with all aids off, I can match world records - I am NOT that good of a driver and certainly don't have enough experience with GT5 to call me one of the faster drivers. I usually cannot match IRL track records in FM 4.

Not even considering a comparison to FM, I shouldn't be able to throw a car around and be as fast as I am when comparing IRL track times to my GT times.

EDIT: The latest posts in this thread are NOT about the accuracies/inaccuracies of Nordschleife; lord knows that has been beaten to death. It's about comments regarding FM 4 physics/tire model/control from those that don't even own FM4.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Someone, I think here on GTPlanet, did an experiemnt and found Forza Nordschleife to be around 15 miles.

 

[HBK]

Should be pretty easy to check using a car with a mileage display.

Edit : Did a quick check. Track is listed as 20.76km long by the game.

Full lap in a stock Audi TT (2007) display a 24.4km run. So unless this mileage display is glitched (there are a lot of glitched dashboards in FM4), there is definitely some huge discrepancy here.

 

[Scaff]

Should be pretty easy to check using a car with a mileage display.

Edit : Did a quick check. Track is listed as 20.76km long by the game.

Full lap in a stock Audi TT (2007) display a 24.4km run. So unless this mileage display is glitched (there are a lot of glitched dashboards in FM4), there is definitely some huge discrepancy here.

Yep the FM4 version is still based on the old PGR 'ring that MS provided to T10. While it has been improved from the original FM (which was exactly like PGR's ring), its still too wide in a quite a few places and that messes with the corner radius' and as a result the length of the track. Its one of my main wishes for the next Forza, go and do the 'ring correctly.

This may be the point, but this video is definitely from FM3 (I thought we were discussing FM4 and GT5 in their latest installments aka. patches).

He asked if it was possible to do this in FM4, I personally think a test on both GT5 and FM4 with a range of tyres would be a better question to ask.

That is part of the crux of my issue with saidur_ali's post's; the automatic assumption that all will be fine with GT5. Its accuracy is never questioned by him, its assumed to be the 'standard'.

That's however clearly not always the case, which is one of the reasons why I have asked him to try to recreate the second on my Cobra videos (the wide open throttle, dump the clutch and keep the steering straight one).

In fact I will ask the question straight out.

@saidur_ali

This is the video in question again.....



The car is held on the handbrake in first gear, the steering held straight (and must never change), the throttle is then applied fully. You simply release the handbrake and keep the steering straight.

I would like you to try this in GT5 in the same car and same track (they are available in arcade free run if required) and tell me what happens.

Then I would like to know why you think it happens and which (FM4 or GT5) is closer to reality and why.


Ta


Scaff

 

[HBK]

Yep the FM4 version is still based on the old PGR 'ring that MS provided to T10. While it has been improved from the original FM (which was exactly like PGR's ring), its still too wide in a quite a few places and that messes with the corner radius' and as a result the length of the track. Its one of my main wishes for the next Forza, go and do the 'ring correctly.

I knew Forza's 'ring was off, I just didn't realize it was that off. Still a nice track to play with though. And of course, I'm with you hoping for a much better 'ring in FM5

He asked if it was possible to do this in FM4, I personally think a test on both GT5 and FM4 with a range of tyres would be a better question to ask.

Sorry, my mistake then.

That is part of the crux of my issue with saidur_ali's post's; the automatic assumption that all will be fine with GT5. Its accuracy is never questioned by him, its assumed to be the 'standard'.

Well that's something that you hear a lot, yeah. It's pretty annoying when trying to have a serious discussion. To be honest, I'm never sure about how to deal with such "assumptions".

Edit : The Audi TT '07 mileage counter seems to be correct. I just did a quick check with Laguna Seca, track is announced as being 3.60km long by the game, and a full lap displays 3.6km on the dash

 

[prymet1me]

Scaff you have the patience of a SAINT. Good discussion, somewhat from one side.

 

[sthnsn]

I bought myself forza 4 yesterday, and im sorry, but after so many years of playing gt im having so much more fun playing forza.

 

[Scaff]

I think this video more or less explains it. Surely you would not class this as realistic car behaviour for an Enzo? I am probably a better driver than that person in that video so I could probably make a more extreme example of that in FM3 if I wanted to. FM4 demo is not as bad as FM3, but I think with a wheel which will give me more control, I would be able to make a similar video.

Here's FM4


It gets harder to change direction after the second time and unrecoverable pretty quickly after that.


Scaff

Edited to add - I'm also still interested to know about the questions I asked in post 7002.

 

[Zer0]

Without much trouble, with all aids off, I can match world records - I am NOT that good of a driver and certainly don't have enough experience with GT5 to call me one of the faster drivers. I usually cannot match IRL track records in FM 4.

Not even considering a comparison to FM, I shouldn't be able to throw a car around and be as fast as I am when comparing IRL track times to my GT times.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6373555#post6373555

 

[FyreandIce]

@saidur_ali

This is the video in question again.....



The car is held on the handbrake in first gear, the steering held straight (and must never change), the throttle is then applied fully. You simply release the handbrake and keep the steering straight.

I would like you to try this in GT5 in the same car and same track (they are available in arcade free run if required) and tell me what happens.

Then I would like to know why you think it happens and which (FM4 or GT5) is closer to reality and why.


Ta


Scaff

I can't wait to see his response to this video.

If memory serves, you can do a full power launch on a banked corner and the car will still take off arrow strait

 

[PzR Slim]

Just to add to this discussion. It's really quite amazing what a very good driver can recover from. Check this video out of what Higgins describes as the 'biggest moment of his life' on the TT course in an Imprezza. Notice how calm the passenger stayed, I don't think he realised how big a moment this was.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

PzR great vid I'm trying to comprehend how he saved it and got the right amount of correction.

 

[Scaff]

Just to add to this discussion. It's really quite amazing what a very good driver can recover from. Check this video out of what Higgins describes as the 'biggest moment of his life' on the TT course in an Imprezza. Notice how calm the passenger stayed, I don't think he realised how big a moment this was.

That's the exact 'save' I was referring to in my previous posts, nice find.

PzR great vid I'm trying to comprehend how he saved it and got the right amount of correction.

Rally driver (British Champion) = highly skilled nutter.


Scaff

 

[PzR Slim]

I'm not wishing to take this too far off topic but here is another example of just how good these pro's are. This guys ability undoubtedly saved the lives of two young rally fans.



What we have to remember is when we drive a game that fear and thoughts of potentially killing yourself or others just isn't there. We attempt things in game that have zero consequence. We are able to replicate what the pro's do for real as a result of that lack of consequence.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

That's the exact 'save' I was referring to in my previous posts, nice find.



Rally driver (British Champion) = highly skilled nutter.


Scaff

Yes sir, I understand that, but trying to figure it out on my own is what I really want . In closing to be able to achieve that is what I'm trying to understand for myself

Back to topic now for me!

What we have to remember is when we drive a game that fear and thoughts of potentially killing yourself or others just isn't there. We attempt things in game that have zero consequence. We are able to replicate what the pro's do for real as a result of that lack of consequence.

In short we have the skill because fear isn't a contributing factor? I agree a lot with you but I disagree a bit because when in a serious heated race the fear of losing your car like that and then losing such a dynamic race virtually or not does come in to play. At least for me, and that is why I pull off saves. In real life (like you've said) it's because I don't want to flippin die.

 

[tribolik]

FM4 lists the Nordschleife length as 12.9 miles, GT5 has it at 12.95 miles. I know the scale has been debated.
But I shouldn't have just used Nordschleife as an example, I usually am faster in GT on other tracks also - comparing apples to apples (wheel/pedals, cars, etc.).
I can throw the cars around more in GT - it feels a "little" more arcade to me than FM4 because of this; fun, but more forgiving.

.

Yes it is listed as 12.9 but check the milage of the car after a lap in both games and you will see that in FM4 the milage the car shows after a lap is much more than the milage listed.

 

[PzR Slim]

In short we have the skill because fear isn't a contributing factor? I agree a lot with you but I disagree a bit because when in a serious heated race the fear of losing your car like that and then losing such a dynamic race virtually or not does come in to play. At least for me, and that is why I pull off saves. In real life (like you've said) it's because I don't want to flippin die.

Don't get me wrong I care as much, probably more, than the next man when it comes to racing in game. I can be a total sweaty mess after a long race if it's been good intense racing. What I meant was that we can recover some pretty extreme moments in game with ease, with ease in the context of being skilled at racing games obviously. I'm not sure we would be able to do the same in real life because of the consequences of failing and the g-forces we would feel that are just not present in a game, to name two. I've had several moments in real life that were not really huge but they felt much bigger than anything I have experienced in game. And I put that down to the fear I felt and the physical effects you go through when getting a car out of shape.

 

[Scaff]

Yes it is listed as 12.9 but check the milage of the car after a lap in both games and you will see that in FM4 the milage the car shows after a lap is much more than the milage listed.

You must have missed this post from yesterday...

Should be pretty easy to check using a car with a mileage display.

Edit : Did a quick check. Track is listed as 20.76km long by the game.

Full lap in a stock Audi TT (2007) display a 24.4km run. So unless this mileage display is glitched (there are a lot of glitched dashboards in FM4), there is definitely some huge discrepancy here.

...regards


Scaff

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Don't get me wrong I care as much, probably more, than the next man when it comes to racing in game. I can be a total sweaty mess after a long race if it's been good intense racing. What I meant was that we can recover some pretty extreme moments in game with ease, I'm not sure we would be able to do the same in real life because of the consequences of failing and the g-forces we would feel that are just not present in a game, to name two. I've had several moments in real life that were not really huge but they felt much bigger than anything I have experienced in game. And I put that down to the fear I felt and the physical effects you go through when getting a car out of shape.

I see and I agree. I have a few incidents where I was really scared but saved it, one I don't think too many would say I saved it but to me the truck was in one piece. The one I will explain is this, I use to drive an 07 Tacoma 4x4 V6. Well it was under my parents ownership, but I was allowed to drive because I paid the insurance and partial bill. Well the truck had bald tires all around, especially in the rear this was back in late 2010 I must remind you so the tires were a good three years old and had been used on long distance trips and as a daily driver to work and school for all of my family.

Well one day I was in a secluded intersecton (lucky me) and it had a dip that had collected water from a storm the night before, when I drove through and turned left down the road the rears were soaked. As I applied power they spun the rears and soon after I let off the gas but it was too late and the rear end was coming around on me. I began to correct and turn the opposite, however I ended up over correcting and the truck spun in a 180, with me applying power at the right moment and heading toward the opposite direction on the the other side of the road. Luckily a bus had just passed by moments before and I ended up on the side of it.

Basically if you're scared enough, you may surprise yourself and that was my biggest driving moment ever.

 

[GT6mebe]

Here's FM4


It gets harder to change direction after the second time and unrecoverable pretty quickly after that.


Scaff

Edited to add - I'm also still interested to know about the questions I asked in post 7002.

It would be great if you showed how fast you were going as Forza has such a false sense of blur to mimic speed. Also can you show the telemetry please as I want to know if you were going full throttle and did you lift off when swinging.

That still looks unrealistic by the way....enzo's do not slide around and something with that much power at full throttle (thats if you were) can not be corrected as easily as shown in that vid. Furthermore you went into the grass which obviously helped it spin.

That's the exact 'save' I was referring to in my previous posts, nice find.

Yes because an enzo has the same characteristics as a Subaru WRX STI rally car....that vid is totally irrelevant other than showing the drivers immense skills.

But I shouldn't have just used Nordschleife as an example, I usually am faster in GT on other tracks also - comparing apples to apples (wheel/pedals, cars, etc.).
I can throw the cars around more in GT - it feels a "little" more arcade to me than FM4 because of this; fun, but more forgiving.

I wholly doubt that you are using the correct tires. Anyone can smash records if they are using a tire like racing softs. Why dont you try using comfort softs on a stock nissan gtr and see how close you get to record time
Also a word of consideration just because a game is more or less difficult does not mean its more or less realistic.

 

[PzR Slim]

Yes because an enzo has the same characteristics as a Subaru WRX STI rally car....that vid is totally irrelevant other than showing the drivers immense skills.

It does in GT5, different cars on the same tyres have the same grip levels. This has been covered before in this very thread, lots of people have done extensive testing.

I wholly doubt that you are using the correct tires. Anyone can smash records if they are using a tire like racing softs. Why dont you try using comfort softs on a stock nissan gtr and see how close you get to record time

And that's the great thing about GT5 isn't it. They give you a range of 'different' tyres to enable you to run the times you require

 

[Scaff]

It would be great if you showed how fast you were going as Forza has such a false sense of blur to mimic speed. Also can you show the telemetry please as I want to know if you were going full throttle and did you lift off when swinging.

It was steady throttle to hold at around 85-90 mph and no lift off, the point was to lose control after all, and the only reason why the car ended up on the grass was because it was difficult to get it to change direction.

That still looks unrealistic by the way....enzo's do not slide around and something with that much power at full throttle (thats if you were) can not be corrected as easily as shown in that vid. Furthermore you went into the grass which obviously helped it spin.

Not full throttle and given that no one is likely to be stupid enough to try and replicate this with a real Enzo a fair bit of speculation on your part.

I replicated (or got close to) a video from FM3 that I was asked to do, so checking on the history behind a post would be a good idea next time.

Oh BTW I did the same for GT5 (with an F40 which I'm sure you will find major issue with - however )


Again constant throttle, similar speed and a car that should be more unstable than the Enzo. It took a lot more abuse to get it to spin (even after a trip on the grass) and certainly more severe steering inputs.

Neither title is 100% accurate in this regard, but having done both back to back I have to say that FM was a lot easier to lose control in this (extreme) test than I found GT5. However this test is to be blunt easily to fake if you want, pop racing slicks on either (that was not the case here - both ran stock tyres) and you will get grip levels (particularly with Racing Softs) that will look totally unrealistic if you are expecting the cars to be running road rubber.

Yes because an enzo has the same characteristics as a Subaru WRX STI rally car....that vid is totally irrelevant other than showing the drivers immense skills.

Please find me saying it does.

That's part of a separate (and slightly off-topic) conversation about how in general big saves are not always unrealistic, please make sure you check post history before putting your foot in your mouth.

Now as you want to get involve in comparison testing, would you also take part in the recreation of the two Cobra clips, in particular the second one (full throttle launch) and then post your GT5 video of it.

Thanks


Scaff