FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Daverytimes]

OK I'm posting these as my final piece on the F40 test.

Both cars stock and all aids off. The FM4 one was done at the TG 1 mile drag strip and while I can't include telemetry on it I have put the replay on my storefront. I used the TG track to remove any chance of track objects or grass interfering with the test.

I of course could not do the same with GT5, so I used the first part of the Fuji straight, not ideal but it is wide and didn't get in the way until after control was lost.

Both runs were full throttle and lock to lock steering after an initial quick steer back and forth starting at 90mph.

FM4


GT5



Scaff

What tyres are you using scaff?

 

[MagpieRacer]

/end Laguna speculation, FM4's one is better full stop.

Gran Turismo's is the wrong colour!

 

[cuco33]

I love it when someone who has never played a game (or "barely played it at a friend's house") talks about said game as if it is fact, especially when it competes directly with his preferred franchise...

I'm sorry guys but when I'm on FM4's version of Nurburgring's Nord... I don't think I'm on Road Atlanta, Laguna Seca or La Sarthe. I don't think I'm on Mugello nor Hockenheimring. I know for a fact that I'm on Nordschleife. Is it better in GT5? Without a doubt GT5 is the better version and that's not saying Forza's is horrible as depicted here by some but whenever I read someone saying how unplayable it is, or how crap it is... it's just brand loyal fodder and nothing more. I have NEVER mistaken Forza's versions of Nord for any other track but Nord itself. Again, is it better in GT5? Without a doubt it is. 💡

 

[Fat Old Sun]

Lack of camber on several turns.

Which turns?

Much smoother track surface.

Smoother then what? Forza's?

Several turns with incorrect angles.

Again, which turns? And i'd be very excited to see the proof that those angles are, indeed, incorrect.

Are we done here, or are you going to fall back on cliched replies (but... but... the laptimes!)? I'd rather not break it down into photographs because of how cumbersome I find GT5's Photomode to be and because I doubt it would make any difference when you've made it clear how deep you've dug in.

You made your bed - you sleep in it. You claim the camber is missing in "lefthander leading to a corkscrew" - i see plenty of camber. Same goes for the rest of "several turns". I'd like you to demonstrate the exact point on that "lefthander" where the camber is missing. And then provide the evidence that Forza 4 had done a better job at replicating that turn. It would make your argument more sound.

Your diversionary tactics need some work. Try making them less transparent, as they'd be more effective that way. Just a friendly bit of advice.

No tactics here. Just pointing out double standards that some apply to the term "track realism".

 

[PzR Slim]

Both games are plain wrong when going off the track. Going off track at 120mph most likely destroys your race tuned chassis. Few games simulate that, and GT5/FM4 do not.

The sticky sand/grass may be a poor workaround against "cheaters", but at least it works. And it's not like off track physics are correct in GT5 either.

Actually, I find the off track "physics" to be much more consistent in FM4 than in GT5. Neither are realistic, but at least in FM4 you don't automatically spin out madly the moment a wheel leaves the track.

But I'm no expert on off track physics, maybe someone with actual experience could comment about it.

Edit : Turn10 should use a penalty system, you know, like in real life racing. If your car can handle the short off road trip you take as a shortcut (which can happen at not-so-high speeds), then you get a penalty, simple as that.

I've got no track experience per say but I've watched enough touring cars action to know that a wheel on the grass does not mean an immediate spin and race over. Except in the wet of course when a tyre on the grass is a recipe for the end of your race. But in the dry I would say 95% maybe more of incidents where a car puts one or more wheels off track results in nothing more than a bit of lost time.

I agree about the penalty system but I think it's very hard to implement. How do you know someone has done it on purpose, as the result of a mistake or as a result of a collision. In the FM leagues I race in we don't actually need the sticky grass as most give the place back if an advantage is gained and we have a stewards panel to rule on those that don't. Public lobbies however.....

 

[Scaff]

What tyres are you using scaff?

Default on both, which is road tyres in FM4 and SH in GT5.

Sports hard are the tyres that offer the closest to correct lateral G for the car as per the testing carried out here:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=160821

and matching the C&D test figure of 1.01
http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ars-of-car-and-driver-testing-orbitals-page-3


Scaff

 

[HBK]

I agree about the penalty system but I think it's very hard to implement. How do you know someone has done it on purpose, as the result of a mistake or as a result of a collision. In the FM leagues I race in we don't actually need the sticky grass as most give the place back if an advantage is gained and we have a stewards panel to rule on those that don't. Public lobbies however.....

I completely understand why Turn10 is using sticky grass/sand. I just wish they could find a more realistic way of coping with "cheaters". At the very least, I'd like to have the option to activate/deactivate the sticky parts as race option, for maximum realism purposes.

That's the kind of thing I'd really like to see evolve in the next installments: less "we are a video game" constraints and more "hardcore realistic" features. It wouldn't be *that* hard to add a true "simulation" damage option for example. I mean, just push up the sliders so that hitting a wall at 50mph means your car is totaled, even if it just means having all parts at 100% damage and not spectacular visual damage. And while probably a bit more complex, it shouldn't be very hard to add chassis/suspension damage for driving off road depending on ride height either.

Yeah, I know I'm dreaming.

 

[Vaxxtx]

You made your bed - you sleep in it. You claim the camber is missing in "lefthander leading to a corkscrew" - i see plenty of camber. Same goes for the rest of "several turns". I'd like you to demonstrate the exact point on that "lefthander" where the camber is missing. And then provide the evidence that Forza 4 had done a better job at replicating that turn. It would make your argument more sound.

What would you like to see? Telemtry showing camber from both GT5 and FM4 going around Laguna Seca? Is there any way you could make a video and show it by chance?

I've got no track experience per say but I've watched enough touring cars action to know that a wheel on the grass does not mean an immediate spin and race over. Except in the wet of course when a tyre on the grass is a recipe for the end of your race. But in the dry I would say 95% maybe more of incidents where a car puts one or more wheels off track results in nothing more than a bit of lost time.

I agree about the penalty system but I think it's very hard to implement. How do you know someone has done it on purpose, as the result of a mistake or as a result of a collision. In the FM leagues I race in we don't actually need the sticky grass as most give the place back if an advantage is gained and we have a stewards panel to rule on those that don't. Public lobbies however.....

The system really isnt that hard to implement I dont think. Of course I have 0 programming abilities, so maybe I am way off. In iRacing going off track (4 wheels) gives you a minor penalty to your Saftey Rating, but doesnt effect the race. Cutting the track gives you a flag, and you must slow down and give that time back. Therefore if you gained a place or 2 by cutting it will be lost while you slow down to give the time back. If you didnt gain a position, you are still giving that time back and it still cuts into your laptime. Not slowing down for the time required results in a stop and hold penalty in the pits. Its an automated steward system that works rather well.

I would love to see this system in both games. As it is right now I agree both FM4 and GT5 versions of off track are rather lame.

 

[Tornado]

Which turns?



Smoother then what? Forza's?



Again, which turns? And i'd be very excited to see the proof that those angles are, indeed, incorrect.



You made your bed - you sleep in it. You claim the camber is missing in "lefthander leading to a corkscrew" - i see plenty of camber. Same goes for the rest of "several turns". I'd like you to demonstrate the exact point on that "lefthander" where the camber is missing. And then provide the evidence that Forza 4 had done a better job at replicating that turn. It would make your argument more sound.

I posted a video (as did GT6mebe, though he clearly didn't intend for it to sink his own argument) that shows a direct comparison of a flying lap, from an almost identical camera angle, of the real track and GT5's rendition. I'm not going to spend time holding your hand and walking you through something as simple as "spot the differences;" especially not when the main bulk of your responses since then have been about things that have absolutely nothing to do with the accuracy of the track model of GT5, making it seem to me that you are incapable of actually debating your initial point (which, I remind you, was that flaws found in the GT5 version of Laguna Seca were "imaginary") despite how comically smug you were when you made it.




Edit:
And as a little recap, as I looked through your posts on this issue a bit more closely:

Railing on about flaws in Forza's penalty system doesn't prove the GT5 Laguna Seca is accurate to real life.
Complaining I haven't shown a video about Forza's Laguna Seca doesn't prove GT5's is accurate to real life (because, again, remember what the initial argument actually was).
Complaining about how the Forza AI doesn't have to hold itself to the same standard as the player in regards to penalties doesn't prove GT5's Laguna Seca is accurate to real life.

Hope that helps.

 

[Finduszip]

Karts. That is all.

/end Laguna speculation, FM4's one is better full stop.

Gran Turismo's is the wrong colour!

I've seen that video before, and the maker of that video have Forza and plays on Xbox! That explains quite a bit.

 

[PzR Slim]

I've seen that video before, and the maker of that video have Forza and plays on Xbox! That explains quite a bit.

Maybe the fact it shows GT5's version means he's got GT5 and plays on PS3 as well? Also does that somehow change what you can see with your own eyes?

 

[GT6mebe]

Karts. That is all.

I certainly do love some karts

 

[Finduszip]

Maybe the fact it shows GT5's version means he's got GT5 and plays on PS3 as well? Also does that somehow change what you can see with your own eyes?

Maybe he took the GT5 video from the interwebz or recorded with somebody he knows.

 

[PzR Slim]

Maybe he took the GT5 video from the interwebz or recorded with somebody he knows.

Maybe, but even if he did the two vids are there for all to see. He hasn't remodelled the tracks in both games has he?

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

I was at Laguna for Rennsport this year and did some parade laps in my 911. Watching that video (it has admittedly been some time since I ran Laguna myself in GT5) I have to say, GT5's version is absolutely atrocious. FM4s version isn't perfect either, but its a 🤬 sight closer...

 

[MagpieRacer]

I've seen that video before, and the maker of that video have Forza and plays on Xbox! That explains quite a bit.

Your reply has no logic, I could make that video and it would have the same results, Yamauchi could make that vid with the same results also..

I don't see what your point is.

 

[Fat Old Sun]

I posted a video (as did GT6mebe, though he clearly didn't intend for it to sink his own argument) that shows a direct comparison of a flying lap, from an almost identical camera angle, of the real track and GT5's rendition.

I see a very accurate rendition of Laguna on that video. I don't see missing camber or incorrect angles. What i see though is you dodging and weaving out of a trap that you found yourself in after making unsupported claims. I do not see missing camber in 'one' specific corner you've mentioned - "lefthander leading to corckscrew". I double checked, mind you, and the the corner is not flat.

I'm not going to spend time holding your hand and walking you through something as simple as "spot the differences;"

Until you find that time, the problems you've listed will remain imaginary.
Simple as that.

especially not when the main bulk of your responses since then have been about things that have absolutely nothing to do with the accuracy of the track model of GT5, making it seem to me that you are incapable of actually debating your initial point (which, I remind you, was that flaws found in the GT5 version of Laguna Seca were "imaginary") despite how comically smug you were when you made it.

Forgive me for veering off a bit in an absence of substance from your posts. What we have here is not a debate. What we have here is you making a claim - a specific turn in GT5's rendition of Laguna is missing camber. And then immediately ducking when challenged. Not surprising though - last time we had this argument in this thread, your escape route was ... what was it... ah yes! Your PS3 was scattered over your kitchen table. Obviously there's a pattern here.

Complaining I haven't shown a video about Forza's Laguna Seca doesn't prove GT5's is accurate to real life (because, again, remember what the initial argument actually.

Oh i remember. You brought up GT5's Laguna when Forza's Nurb came up again. Implying that GT5 is just as guilty of mortal sins of real world tracks not being accurate. For GT5's Laguna to even approach the level of negligence Turn 10 applied to Nurb - it'd have to be 15% longer then real life. How's that for starters? But wait, the camber is missing. Which of course, it is not.

Oh and where did i complain you "haven't shown a video about Forza's Laguna Seca"?

Complaining about how the Forza AI doesn't have to hold itself to the same standard as the player in regards to penalties doesn't prove GT5's Laguna Seca is accurate to real life.

What it proves though, is that Forza's world is ruled not by the physics laws, but by Turn 10's whimsy.

Hope that helps.

May be next time.

 

[PzR Slim]

I see a very accurate rendition of Laguna on that video. I don't see missing camber or incorrect angles. What i see though is you dodging and weaving out of a trap that you found yourself in after making unsupported claims. I do not see missing camber in 'one' specific corner you've mentioned - "lefthander leading to corckscrew". I double checked, mind you, and the the corner is not flat.



Until you find that time, the problems you've listed will remain imaginary.
Simple as that.



Forgive me for veering off a bit in an absence of substance from your posts. What we have here is not a debate. What we have here is you making a claim - a specific turn in GT5's rendition of Laguna is missing camber. And then immediately ducking when challenged. Not surprising though - last time we had this argument in this thread, your escape route was ... what was it... ah yes! Your PS3 was scattered over your kitchen table. Obviously there's a pattern here.




Oh i remember. You brought up GT5's Laguna when Forza's Nurb came up again. Implying that GT5 is just as guilty of mortal sins of real world tracks not being accurate. For GT5's Laguna to even approach the level of negligence Turn 10 applied to Nurb - it'd have to be 15% longer then real life. How's that for starters? But wait, the camber is missing. Which of course, it is not.

Oh and where did i complain you "haven't shown a video about Forza's Laguna Seca"?



What it proves though, is that Forza's world is ruled not by the physics laws, but by Turn 10's whimsy.



May be next time.

So how do you respond to high sea monster who has driven the track?

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

I'm sure he'll have some unrelated response or say that until I can prove it, which it has already been shown; in that GT5 vs RL vid, the first corner braking zone, the placement of the first bridge (now the Cooper Tire bridge, but still the Bridgestone bridge in GT5 even though it was the Yokohama bridge since 2006(?) until it became the Cooper Tire bridge in 2010...) the corner before the corkscrew, the whole runup to the corkscrew (the Rahal strait) the corkscrew itsself, the corner after the corkscrew, and the final corner all all wrong. Just watching the video I can see that.

 

[Tornado]

Are we done here? Wait, let me check something.

Obviously there's a pattern here.

Ah. I see. The entirety of your posting history seems to be how PD can do no wrong in regards to track replication.




And since even direct video evidence doesn't seem to be enough to shake that belief, I think we're done here.

I'm sure he'll have some unrelated response or say that until I can prove it, which it has already been shown; in that GT5 vs RL vid, the first corner braking zone, the placement of the first bridge (now the Cooper Tire bridge, but still the Bridgestone bridge in GT5 even though it was the Yokohama bridge since 2006(?) until it became the Cooper Tire bridge in 2010...) the corner before the corkscrew, the whole runup to the corkscrew (the Rahal strait) the corkscrew itsself, the corner after the corkscrew, and the final corner all all wrong. Just watching the video I can see that.

Twenty bucks says he claims you've never driven on the track.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

Are we done here? Wait, let me check something.
And since even direct video evidence doesn't seem to be enough to shake that belief, I think we're done here.[/color][/b][/font]

Ok, I just watched the video again, looked at some of the pictures I took at Rennsport this year, and watched a couple other vids of Laguna. Here's my list of problems, which is still probably not complete.
1- The Track is too wide on the front strait.
2- The curbing on the pitlane exit is incorrect. There shouldn't even be rumble curbs there, but GT5 has them.
3- The braking zone for the first real turn (turn 2) is not correctly angled compared to the road going over the hill, which means that turn 1 is not a tight enough angle.
4- The runoff area for turn 2 is massively incorrect.
5- the track landmarks on the right side of the track between 2 and 3 are incorrect.
6- The runoff area for turn 3 is incorrrect.
7- The placement of the first bridge is wrong.*
8- The track in turn 4 is too wide, allowing for too much track-out from turn 4.
9- The track between turns 4 and 5 is too wide, and too smooth.
10- There is not enough camber in turn 5, and the track is still too wide.
11- The track between turns 5 and 6 is too wide and too smooth.
12- The placement of the second bridge is incorrect.*
13- There is not enough camber in turn 6.
14- The runoff for turn 6 is incorrect.
15- The runup to the corkscrew is all wrong. Too wide, too shallow of an angle, the walls are wrong.
16- The corkscrew is wrong. It is not tight enough on the second apex, the track is too wide, the elevation change across the width of the track is incorrect, the runoff is wrong, and the walls are wrong.
17- The trackside landmarks are placed incorrectly in the corkscrew.
18- The placement of the third bridge is wrong.*
19- The turn after the corkscrew (Turn 9) is not correct. The radius is wrong and the turn-in is too far from the exit of the corkscrew. There is also not enough camber.
20- There is not enough camber in turn 10; the track is also too wide here.
21- The exit from turn 11 is too wide, allowing too much track-out.

*- The placement of these bridges being wrong, but the laptimes in the comp. vid being the same leads me to believe that the length of the track is off too. The car in GT5 is passing under the bridges later than the real one, but still travels for an equivalent time after going under them before reaching the next corner. The laptimes being similar to real may be because of the wider track-outs allowing more speed to be carried through a couple key corners, if indeed the track is too long.

So, that's 21 errors at least in a 2.238 mile, 11-turn track.
Comprehensive enough?

 

[tribolik]

Are we done here? Wait, let me check something.



Ah. I see. The entirety of your posting history seems to be how PD can do no wrong in regards to track replication.




And since even direct video evidence doesn't seem to be enough to shake that belief, I think we're done here.


Twenty bucks says he claims you've never driven on the track.

But the guy that did the 2 Miata's videos did and he doesnt seem to think the track is all that diferent... with the exception of the inexisting effect of running over curbs in the game... and from what I can see with my own eyes the color of the track does seem to be more accurate in FM4

But its an American game and if they didnt get that one right...

The thing is that most of the tracks are more accurate in GT5... and thats something they need to improove in the Forza series

Forza 4 is the best game all around but still needs to improove on a few things.

- track accuracy
- car model accuracy
- smoke effects, sand effects (running off road)
- night and day transitions and weather effects

GT5 needs to improve on a lot more things and IMO I will point out the more important

- damage model
- car costumization
- standard cars must be upgraded to current gen
- more real life tracks
- livery editor
- more up to date race cars and super cars (and more American and european models)

among other things...

Mind you that I dont usually play online so it is IMO only that I expressed myself

 

[Tornado]

1- The Track is too wide on the front strait.
21- The exit from turn 11 is too wide, allowing too much track-out.

Hm. I admit that I didn't even notice these ones. Perhaps the wall being so much closer to the track edge than it is in real life threw me for a loop.

 

[tribolik]

Hm. I admit that I didn't even notice these ones. Perhaps the wall being so much closer to the track edge than it is in real life threw me for a loop.

On the other hand if a guy was to make the same list on the inaccuracies of the Ring in FM4 this page of the thread wouldnt be enough...

Dont mind me Im just being the devils advocate...

 

[Tornado]

And? No one is arguing that the Forza 'Ring is accurate or that the GT5 one is not.

 

[Vaxxtx]

Ok, I just watched the video again, looked at some of the pictures I took at Rennsport this year, and watched a couple other vids of Laguna. Here's my list of problems, which is still probably not complete.
1- The Track is too wide on the front strait.
2- The curbing on the pitlane exit is incorrect. There shouldn't even be rumble curbs there, but GT5 has them.
3- The braking zone for the first real turn (turn 2) is not correctly angled compared to the road going over the hill, which means that turn 1 is not a tight enough angle.
4- The runoff area for turn 2 is massively incorrect.
5- the track landmarks on the right side of the track between 2 and 3 are incorrect.
6- The runoff area for turn 3 is incorrrect.
7- The placement of the first bridge is wrong.*
8- The track in turn 4 is too wide, allowing for too much track-out from turn 4.
9- The track between turns 4 and 5 is too wide, and too smooth.
10- There is not enough camber in turn 5, and the track is still too wide.
11- The track between turns 5 and 6 is too wide and too smooth.
12- The placement of the second bridge is incorrect.*
13- There is not enough camber in turn 6.
14- The runoff for turn 6 is incorrect.
15- The runup to the corkscrew is all wrong. Too wide, too shallow of an angle, the walls are wrong.
16- The corkscrew is wrong. It is not tight enough on the second apex, the track is too wide, the elevation change across the width of the track is incorrect, the runoff is wrong, and the walls are wrong.
17- The trackside landmarks are placed incorrectly in the corkscrew.
18- The placement of the third bridge is wrong.*
19- The turn after the corkscrew (Turn 9) is not correct. The radius is wrong and the turn-in is too far from the exit of the corkscrew. There is also not enough camber.
20- There is not enough camber in turn 10; the track is also too wide here.
21- The exit from turn 11 is too wide, allowing too much track-out.

*- The placement of these bridges being wrong, but the laptimes in the comp. vid being the same leads me to believe that the length of the track is off too. The car in GT5 is passing under the bridges later than the real one, but still travels for an equivalent time after going under them before reaching the next corner. The laptimes being similar to real may be because of the wider track-outs allowing more speed to be carried through a couple key corners, if indeed the track is too long.

Comprehensive enough?

Thank you. Seriously. For someone who has actually driven the track in RL as well as in both games.

On the other hand if a guy was to make the same list on the inaccuracies of the Ring in FM4 this page of the thread wouldnt be enough...

Right...because well its a much, much bigger track with more turns. So obviously there would be more to be incorrect.

At least with FM4 you can drive on an inaccurate ring with more real world physics, than GT5, and thats what I personally care about.

 

[Fat Old Sun]

Are we done here? Wait, let me check something.

No proof of missing camber? Yep, looks like we're done.

Ah. I see. The entirety of your posting history seems to be how PD can do no wrong in regards to track replication.

What is it? A character assassination attempt? Now that is comical.

And since even direct video evidence doesn't seem to be enough to shake that belief, I think we're done here.

You were provided with "direct video evidence" earlier in this thread. Even quotes from real race drivers. It didn't shake your belief either. Ironic, isn't it? And let it be clear we are dealing with a belief here. Up until you show that "the missing camber" is, indeed, missing.

Twenty bucks says he claims you've never driven on the track.

Would I be that "he" you're referring to? If so you're out of twenty bucks.

 

[tribolik]

And? No one is arguing that the Forza 'Ring is accurate or that the GT5 one is not.

From what I can tell nobody is aguing about GT5 Laguna seca being more accurate or not either but that still didnt stop him why should it stop me?

and what part of dont mind me didnt you understand? can I have my own opinions?

I have already stated that I think for what I can gather that FM4 is the better game all around so that leaves me standing on the fence (being the only unbiased person here) watching both games fans at each other's throats... it is fun here so theres no point going for my throat also.

 

[PzR Slim]

On the other hand if a guy was to make the same list on the inaccuracies of the Ring in FM4 this page of the thread wouldnt be enough...

Dont mind me Im just being the devils advocate...

We all know the FM version of the ring is not right. The GT5 one is superior. We can admit FM4's flaws.

 

[Tornado]

What is it? A character assassination attempt? Now that is comical.

There's quite obviously a second rule as well:

Whenever Forza's Nurb gets mentioned - bring up GT5's Laguna - with it's imaginary problems like "corckscrew is kinda off". I tell you, it never fails.

Not surprising though - last time we had this argument in this thread, your escape route was ... what was it... ah yes! Your PS3 was scattered over your kitchen table. Obviously there's a pattern here.

Oh, your attempt to act like you didn't start this entire thing is adorable.

Would I be that "he" you're referring to? If so you're out of twenty bucks.

Yeah, about that. I've noticed that, despite being so defiantly sure that you are right, you've completely ignored all three of HighSeasHoMastr's posts on the subject; including the one that breaks all of the inaccuracies down so thoroughly like you've been demanding.

And particular, you know, reason for that?