FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[cuco33]

I'm one of those who thinks Kaz should stay in place as head of PD but allowing PD to do as they please, taking on countless projects without properly resourcing the team (growing PD/outsourcing) is a recipe for disaster. Sony's own pushing of 3D, 4K tech demos, amongst other stuff, most likely didn't help. If PD were treated like any other developer, they'd have timelines to meet with a complete product. I doubt GT6 will have the issues GT5 had and I think if Kaz left or was moved out it would be a negative thing for the GT franchise. Basically what I'm getting as is PD/Kaz needs to be put in check, not get the bonus of more time/funding and a pass on decisions like porting over the bulk of content from last gen. That's just my opinion though, I know some think Kaz is the reason why GT5 exists in the state it does but I don't agree (I think it's a combination of many things)

 

[Vaxxtx]

Easy. Here:

http://vimeo.com/30067958

Looks splendid to me. Would my opinion and a video be sufficient enough concrete proof? Cause that is what it looks like it takes here to start an urban myth around here such as "the camber is missing!".

Its hard to take you seriously when every post you have made is on this thread, and you dont like to respond to some questions, and just cherry pick others.

 

[tribolik]

First, Ill say it again, PD/Kaz didnt make car games mainstream. Thanking him for inspiring some guys at T10 is silly. Should I thank the people that invented plastic that is used to make keyboards, that made it possible to develop games? What about thanking the sun for giving life to Earth in order to be a human, in order to play games? See what I mean?

No not really but let me ask you this? what was the first console racing game that you played?

I say console because I started playing pole position and checkered flag back in the 80s on the 48K but those didnt really cut it for me... not until I tryed GT3 with a Force feedback wheel (logitech driving force)

 

[GT6mebe]

Ok, I just watched the video again, looked at some of the pictures I took at Rennsport this year, and watched a couple other vids of Laguna. Here's my list of problems, which is still probably not complete.

So, that's 21 errors at least in a 2.238 mile, 11-turn track.
Comprehensive enough?

Errrr so what. The guy in the video is a race driver and he disagrees he thinks the track is pretty realistic for a console game but syas if he wanted better realism he would got to PC sims. So its his word over yours.

Hm. I admit that I didn't even notice these ones. Perhaps the wall being so much closer to the track edge than it is in real life threw me for a loop.

Oh look judging width by the perception of your eyes despite angle and height being different. Yes that is very clever lol.

Right...because well its a much, much bigger track with more turns. So obviously there would be more to be incorrect.

Look, I am 100 oercent certain that I can name a flaw in Forza's Nurburgring in every meter of that track thats how bad it is. So what thats like 20,000. Sadly there is not enough time in the world to list that.

We all know the FM version of the ring is not right. The GT5 one is superior. We can admit FM4's flaws.

Oh, your attempt to act like you didn't start this entire thing is adorable.

Look what we have here. You can admit Forza's flaws good on you /s
I distinctively remember that is was we that said FM4 nurburgring was horribel and you Forza fans saying that GT5's LG was bad......LOL WUT and now your accusing us of starting this

I remain by my rule.....mention Nurburgring to a FM fan and he will have an epileptic fit on GT5's LG.

IF anything PD should take notes from other games, not just FM. Sad thing is, Kaz is such a dolt, he says he doesnt pay attention to the competition...which is a flaw, not something to brag about.

Kaz does not care about other race games because he wants his simulator to be compared with real life unlike Turn 10 who seemed frankly obsessive with PD.

Can you provide concrete proof that there are no problems with the GT5 iteration?

You just dont get it do you...we never claimed it be accurate or inaccurate.....we simple mention that track ( I learn see) and thats when this kickstarted.

But why do you keep insulting Kaz? what did he do to you other than planting the seed that today allows you to play and enjoy Forza?

They have some vendetta for him for creating sim racers as we know it today and mistake his humbleness as arrogance.

 

[Fat Old Sun]

From what little I watched (I couldn't take all of the goddamn buffering) the third corner hits the apex much earlier than in the real life lap. That's one.

The bridge also appeared further away in GT5. That's two.

That's where I stopped.

---

Perfect? Okay, now you're delusional. And who's even talking about Nurburgring? We know that's inaccurate, no one will refute that. Stop bringing it up. It supports nothing. It proves nothing.

It is quite simple actually. The reason Laguna enters into the conversation is usually by the sheer will of few posters here, and without fail, every time Forza's Nurb gets mentioned. To which i simply asked for proof. You wouldn't take my analisys of a youtube video criticising, let's say, Forza's Hockenheim as having several turns as too wide? Which by the way i think is true.

When i ask for upteenth time to show me the camber missing at the lefhander leading into the corckscrew, that is all it means. I do not see that problem on the video, i do not see that problem on the track in the game. And i don't find it too much to ask for a clarification to such a claim

 

[Vaxxtx]

No not really but let me ask you this? what was the first console racing game that you played?

I say console because I started playing pole position and checkered flag back in the 80s on the 48K but those didnt really cut it for me...

First console one? Hmmm...I would have to say Night Driver on the Atari. Of course arcades with Pole Position were probably the ones that stand out more. Also played Test Drive on the 386. But now that wouldnt a console huh?

So I assume there is a reason for this question that someone relates to Kaz?

 

[Fat Old Sun]

Its hard to take you seriously when every post you have made is on this thread, and you dont like to respond to some questions, and just cherry pick others.

I'm sorry, i am at work and have little choice but to cherry pick. As far as your contributions, i find them quite mean spirited and downright offensive when speaking of someone who you don't know personally, and who doesn't have a chance to answer to your libel (Kaz). So if i missed a comment or two by you, you got a reason for my silence.

 

[Tornado]

Oh look judging width by the perception of your eyes despite angle and height being different. Yes that is very clever lol.

You mean to tell me the wall isn't right there in the GT5 portion of the video and is in fact several feet farther to the right like it is in real life?

They have some vendetta for him for creating sim racers as we know it today and mistake his humbleness as arrogance.

"Expect perfection."



And console racing sims predated Gran Turismo, nevermind PC ones.






By the way, how are you coming along refuting Scaff's claims from earlier?

 

[tribolik]

First console one? Hmmm...I would have to say Night Driver on the Atari. Of course arcades with Pole Position were probably the ones that stand out more. Also played Test Drive on the 386. But now that wouldnt a console huh?

So I assume there is a reason for this question that someone relates to Kaz?

You must be older than me that game is from the 70s and I only started playing video games in the 80s (when I was 10 years old)

So it was night driver your hook to racing games? because the thing that got to me (besides the explendid graphics the GT series of the PS2 had for that time) was force feedback

 

[Vaxxtx]

Kaz does not care about other race games because he wants his simulator to be compared with real life unlike Turn 10 who seemed frankly obsessive with PD.

They have some vendetta for him for creating sim racers as we know it today and mistake his humbleness as arrogance.

Then maybe tire models, real damage, real cockpits, same physics online/offline, and real drafting, should have implemented? Dunno...

Sorry GT is not a sim, nor is Forza. They are both sim-like games. He didnt create sims as we know today. Please get your information right.

 

[Terronium-12]

It is quite simple actually. The reason Laguna enters into the conversation is usually by the sheer will of few posters here, and without fail, every time Forza's Nurb gets mentioned.

Most likely having something to do with being the first criticism that comes out of everyone's mouth in this thread?

Example:

"Forza 4's new DLC looks quite promising - I can't wait to try my hand at the 787B"

"Is the Nurburgring fixed? If not, I could care less."

You see how that would entice some people to essentially call you a raging moron?

To which i simply asked for proof.

And, to my recollection, you've been given proof on the topic matter several times. Even from me and I don't even particularly pay attention to track accuracy until faults are pointed out to me.

You wouldn't take my analisys of a youtube video criticising, let's say, Forza's Hockenheim as having several turns as too wide? Which by the way i think is true.

This isn't the first time I've heard this and I'm no position to defend nor refute that criticism.

When i ask for umpteenth time to show me the camber missing at the lefhander leading into the corckscrew, that is all it means. I do not see that problem on the video, i do not see that problem on the track in the game. And i don't find it too much to ask for a clarification to such a claim

I didn't make it that far into the video but the only GT I can remember getting the Corkscrew right (at least in practice) was GT3. Remember that License test with the GTS, if you took the Corkscrew carrying too much speed you'd spin out? I don't ever recall that happening to me in GT5.

Not once. I can recall understeer though.

 

[prymet1me]

Great thread, amazing how users on GTPlanet work the AUP to "roll" successfully, I must say however the poetry of it in motion is quite amazing. Guys like Scaff post videos and all kinds of other explanations to get their point across and then the usually replay of "well its not how GT does it so its incorrect" is quite entertaining. I do not even understand how Scaff can muster the patience to keep talking to a brick wall(s). Guess when you love something you just love it no matter what, even if some one takes time to explain something in detail to you that is negative about the thing you love you still cant see it.

Carry on gentlemen

 

[JDMKING13]

s

I'm sorry, i am at work and have little choice but to cherry pick. As far as your contributions, i find them quite mean spirited and downright offensive when speaking of someone who you don't know personally, and who doesn't have a chance to answer to your libel (Kaz). So if i missed a comment or two by you, you got a reason for my silence.

I agree, and to take it further state them as facts. Why cant we all just get along so many egos.

 

[Vaxxtx]

I'm sorry, i am at work and have little choice but to cherry pick. As far as your contributions, i find them quite mean spirited and downright offensive when speaking of someone who you don't know personally, and who doesn't have a chance to answer to your libel (Kaz). So if i missed a comment or two by you, you got a reason for my silence.

Nothing is stopping Kaz from coming in here to answer me. So its mean to say Tony Romo from the Dallas Cowboys is bad and needs to go? Over sensative much? I am not insulting the man, I am critisizing what he has done to GT. Sorry if my opinion of him offends.

You must be older than me that game is from the 70s and I only started playing video games in the 80s (when I was 10 years old)

So it was night driver your hook to racing games? because the thing that got to me (besides the explendid graphics the GT series of the PS2 had for that time) was force feedback

No, you asked the first race game I played on a console. I played PC combat flight sims more than anything. The game that got me more serious into racing games was Shift2. Thats when I got a wheel, joined a league etc. etc.

Although its nice to have a conversation about my gaming past, I am wondering if this is going somewhere in keeping it in line with the topic?

 

[tribolik]

on the other hand while forza seems to be the better game Kaz also seems to be doing something right.

Forza sales figures didnt reach 2 million units and GT5 sales figures topped 7 million.

Is that on topic enought for GT5 vs FM4? from what I can gather from that info GT5 is kicking FM4 &%$

and who is Tony Romo from the Dallas Cowboys and what does he/they have to do with this thread?

 

[prymet1me]

on the other hand while forza seems to be the better game Kaz also seems to be doing something right.

Forza sales figures didnt reach 2 million units and GT5 sales figures topped 7 million.

That is because it is the real driving simulator with the most devoted fans, of course it will out sell any other racing simulator on the market. Expect perfection and they almost delivered.

 

[Terronium-12]

on the other hand while forza seems to be the better game Kaz also seems to be doing something right.

Forza sales figures didnt reach 2 million units and GT5 sales figures topped 7 million.

So, you're going by the rationale that more sales = better game?

 

[cuco33]

...
Kaz does not care about other race games because he wants his simulator to be compared with real life unlike Turn 10 who seemed frankly obsessive with PD.


They have some vendetta for him for creating sim racers as we know it today and mistake his humbleness as arrogance.

Let me guess... you were of the many which cried foul when Dan Greenwalt of T10 was promoting Forza 3 and came out with PR speak with the 'definitive' messages? And I'm sure you had no problem with PD labeling GT5 as 'the standard' or even the line on the box art and anywhere the brand is posted as 'the real driving simulator'?

 

[GT6mebe]

on the other hand while forza seems to be the better game Kaz also seems to be doing something right.

Forza sales figures didnt reach 2 million units and GT5 sales figures topped 7 million.

LOL NOOOOOOO do not mention that they will get uber angry.....by the way went I meant made sims the way we know them now I mena in their popularity. GT is the most popular racing sim in all of sim racing which is FACT. There must have been something Kaz did right along the years to get to that stage....were did this brand power come from this fiath in Kaz by fans of GT.

So, you're going by the rationale that more sales = better game

So you seem to be going by the motto of lets not read a person's post and say something that cannot be argued over. Read what he says please.

That is because it is the real driving simulator with the most devoted fans, of course it will out sell any other racing simulator on the market. Expect perfection and they almost delivered.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Just saying. I know I have used it but only when talking to very difficult people.

I am not insulting the man, I am critisizing what he has done to GT. Sorry if my opinion of him offends.

I also find this very offensive and have come to the conclusion that you are not a GT fan. When a fan of series wishes the creator of that series to be gone he is not a true fan.

I love how people here think that saying their statements as opinion suddenly means no one can dispute their realism as its right in their own little world.

No my friend what you have is not an opinion. Its ignorance. When you judge someones personality by how the media portrays them.

 

[tribolik]

So, you're going by the rationale that more sales = better game?

No not quite... I was just trying to point out that calling Kaz stupid is in fact a stupid thing to do... I have mention alot of times before that I would love nothing more than to be able to get a Xbox, FM4, and a CSR because from all that I can gather from the unbiased opinons I read on forums FM4 is the better game all around.

 

[Scaff]

How about we leave the 'what I think of Kaz' for our own private reflection and actually get this thread back on topic......


......or do I have to remove those who seem happy to ignore the AUP?


Scaff

 

[Vaxxtx]

Deleted after reading the above post.

 

[Terronium-12]

No not quite... I was just trying to point out that calling Kaz stupid is in fact a stupid thing to do... I have mention alot of times before that I would love nothing more than to be able to get a Xbox, FM4, and a CSR because from all that I can gather from the unbiased opinons I read on forums FM4 is the better game all around.

Ah. My apologies then.

I've just seen that line of reasoning used too many times to the point of it being annoying.

 

[prymet1me]

"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Just saying. I know I have used it but only when talking to very difficult people."

True, true..so it could apply here if you are assuming I was using sarcasm there for your wit comment can be seen as a personal attack. Are you attacking me personally? Do you disagree with my sentence? What exactly are you trying to say?

 

[Fat Old Sun]

Most likely having something to do with being the first criticism that comes out of everyone's mouth in this thread?

Example:

"Forza 4's new DLC looks quite promising - I can't wait to try my hand at the 787B"

"Is the Nurburgring fixed? If not, I could care less."


You see how that would entice some people to essentially call you a raging moron?

I don't see it. I never said anything of sorts and now i am a raging moron? Lucky for me though, you, as a member of moderator staff, would come down with a hammer of vengeance to protect my honor. Right?

And, to my recollection, you've been given proof on the topic matter several times. Even from me and I don't even particularly pay attention to track accuracy until faults are pointed out to me.

What i was given was an opinion. I happen to draw a different conclusion from the video. It would help if we move on to the next step: one claims camber is missing? Make a screenshot and show exactly where is it missing.

Remember that License test with the GTS, if you took the Corkscrew carrying too much speed you'd spin out? I don't ever recall that happening to me in GT5.

Not once. I can recall understeer though.

I did spin out passing corckscrew. Not sure if that prove anything, but there's it.

 

[Scaff]

I don't see it. I never said anything of sorts and now i am a raging moron? Lucky for me though, you, as a member of moderator staff, would come down with a hammer of vengeance to protect my honor. Right?

T12 is not a member of the staff on this site.

I am and this off topic noise about who said what and if its personal or not ends now.

I may have mentioned that before.


Scaff

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

I saw this on another site in a FM-GT debate thread, and I thought it could provide some interesting discussion here:

I went on GT Planet and I Saw that they had new DLC I was like "Ok that looks nice" then I scroll down to see the comments and I nearly vomited in class. I hate using the word "Fanboy" but 70% of the people that play Gran Turismo 5 and just Kaz or GT5 extremist. It's just so plain annoying going on that site now.

"Take that Forza"

”Eat my exhaust fumes Forza!!!!”

"I say go play Forza and stay the hell off GT Planet"

"I’m sure there are numerous Forza fans that drop in from time to time to dust some crops, try to get you excited. Don’t take the bait."

"Elbow of the top ropes to Forza, 14 months on and STILL THE DADDY!!!! Ask me again why I own a PS3 and not a crapbox??? GT5, THE ALWAYS EVOLVING SIMULATOR …."

I could go on and on with these quotes but back to the real thing I was talking about. The DLC seems just too linear to the DLC that Forza is getting. Coincidence ? ALTHOUGH the DLC is looking great for Polyphony. That is one thing that I was hoping for them to step up. The benchmark track looks great.

Thoughts?




My thoughts:
I honestly think that's part of the problem with the GT series in general. So many of its fans are willing to take what's given with absolutely no reservations, it's like they're sheep following the "great leader" right off a cliff.
Now, obviously, I don't think that GT5 has gone over that cliff, but I think that if things continue as they are the GT series in general will. Look at how most GT fans react to people mentioning problems with the game: "Go play Flopza" or "At least they're in there (standard cars)" or "Why are you so ungrateful?"---> That's my personal favorite; ungrateful. How dare we expect a game that's up to current generational standards for all its content? We should be grateful that we paid $60+ for half a game, and that PD by the goodness of their hearts have given us half-finished cockpits and lackluster DLC to buy. Grateful?
Where is the cutting edge in that community to push the game forward? Where is the drive to fix the problems going to come from? Certainly not from these people, who buy paint chips for real money and tell people who criticize problems to 🤬 off.

Honestly, PD lock-stepping T10 on DLC would not be a particularly poor business strategy
I applaud PD for getting Spa, I truly wish it was in FM4, but their car DLC seems so... slipshod? The first DLC was a bad joke, 10 RM cars that are already in the game, and some paint chips (1 use only) and racing suits? The second DLC was 4 cars that no one really wanted. This 3rd DLC seems to be getting better, but one has to ask: Should it really take 3 tries for a world-class dev to get DLC that people actually really want?

 

[tribolik]

Go play Flopza if you dont like GT5... just kidding

The first DLC wasnt all that bad (except for the paints and racing gear) the second was a joke and I didnt buy it and the third is becoming annoying and I will also not buy it (maybe Ill buy the tracks)
I really wish they would had some DLC with modern race cars to game... the honda hsv-010 gt for example. and I really wish they would add some a-spec events to the tracks they release as DLC. but from what I can gather the Forza series also doesnt add events to the tracks it releases.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Easy. Here:

http://vimeo.com/30067958

Looks splendid to me. Would my opinion and a video be sufficient enough concrete proof? Cause that is what it looks like it takes here to start an urban myth around here such as "the camber is missing!".

Turn 1 - Run off too big

Turn 2 - Completely flat, real video shows camber quite clearly

Turn 3 - Grandstands completely wrong, missing absolutely every piece of enviromental detail on the right immediately after the turn. Also missing an escape road on the right just before the bridge.

Turn 4 - barrier on the inside waaay too close to the road.

Turn 5 - Ignoring the magical gutter/drain thing that is clearly not there in the real video, turn 5 clearly does not have enough camber compared to the real one, not a myth, fact. Look how the real car is fighting on the exit but the GT5 one stays completely calm and serene like nothing was there.

Straight bit - Wall is way too close to the track, should be gravel, isn't.

Corkscrew entry - I am sorry but until I saw this video I never realised how off this hill was, its not even going the same direction and isn't close to the real elevation. GT5 has a random dip that clearly is not there irl.

Turn 7 - Barrier on the right too close to the track, again, wrong camber.

Turn 8 - Unusually here it seems there is too much camber on GT5, so wrong camber again.

Final corner - Wrong angle for the turn, exit barrier too close.

GT5 also seems too narrow in some parts and too wide in others and don't get me started on how inaccurate the enviroment is, grass everywhere, missing entire buildings, landscapes and areas.

 

[Patrick]

Go play Flopza if you dont like GT5... just kidding

The first DLC wasnt all that bad (except for the paints and racing gear) the second was a joke and I didnt buy it and the third is becoming annoying and I will also not buy it (maybe Ill buy the tracks)
I really wish they would had some DLC with modern race cars to game... the honda hsv-010 gt for example. and I really wish they would add some a-spec events to the tracks they release as DLC. but from what I can gather the Forza series also doesnt add events to the tracks it releases.

Every month T10 add about 5 or 6 "rivals" events. Which in my opinion are much better than GT5's seasonal events.