FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Terronium-12]

You're quite correct! I've never made it a mistery that i use the same evidence as everyone else! But here's the thing. The burden of proof lies on the party making claims (hello there Toronado), not on someone who happens to disagree. Especially when we all, i'm sure, own GT5 and are capable of firing up Laguna, drive up to the corner in question and seeing for ourselves. Which i did, and someone like Toronado most likely didn't, hence his outrageous claims.



Funny thing, he didn't. Somebody else did, and Toronado simply jumped to the opportunity. He can't be bothered to hold anyone's hand, remember?

Besides, aren't we done here?

That's how it would work if he were the only person claiming such. Unfortunately for you, he isn't, and therefore the burden of proof to the contrary falls on you.

And only you.

EDIT: And, once again, you've misread the entirety of that post: I was talking about you.

 

[Scaff]

Looks like we're in total agreement in this case then. I found that comparison shot to be not sufficient enough to draw any conclusion on how something could be present or missing from GT5's depiction of that particular corner.

Then I would like an explanation as to why you described me an not being objective and that I was insisting on this being a truism?

Deliberately misleading posts are an AUP violation and you clearly attributed a position to me that I had in no way presented, and be aware this is not a situation that is taken lightly.

You need a proof that i actually fired up the game and run a lap around Laguna Seca?

And this is not helping either.

If you're referring to missing camber, i have two points for you:
a) I have provided the video. With my opinion attached to it. It's just as good as any other "proof" presented in this thread so far.

Did you not describe presenting the video alone as evidence to be insufficient?

You have mocked the use of video evidence alone in at least two posts, and I think you will find that I have done considerably more than just reference videos.

b) The camber entered this discussion via following post:
I've bolded the part in question for you. Any other proof with anything but a 3rd party video and an opinion, would have to originate from a person who made the original statement. I disagree with his statement. And rightly so.

Quite frankly it doesn't bother me how it entered into the discussion, I've gone out of my way to provide material that could be discussed in a meaningful way, I don't feel that asking for reciprocation on this one point is to much to ask.

I've acknowledged the problem with that part of the track to a degree that he suggested the problem existed. I also agreed with your assessment of the problem with the same part of the track. I can't see how that can be read as "being dismissive of other opinions".

A question, are you attributing the bump to the change of corner profile?

You have however put the integrity of my posts in question by suggesting that i "have been blindly dismissive of the feedback others". Which is completely untrue.

A point I stand by. Until I posted the images the only point you acknowledged on track (not retaining walls, etc) was an out of place bump, something that is quite different to a change to a corners profile.

And that brings me to the point i've been trying to make. It is wrong to bring up GT5's Laguna as a counterpoint to criticism leveled at Turn 10 for their buthchering of Nurb (cue appropriate quote). Nothing has been brought up that suggests downright sloppiness on PD's part versus changes that naturally happened as the track kept evolving.

Did I use Laguna Seca to excuse FM4's 'ring?

No would be the answer, I have always freely acknowledged the issues it has and to be blunt this discussion has moved past that point. The only one still bringing it up is you.

So far my posting pattern suggests that i have a problem with Laguna Seca being an example of PD's negligence in the treatment of real world tracks on the level of Turn 10. Nothing more, nothing less. My entries to the the discussions are evidenced here and here. I have questioned the validity of an argument of certain posters insisting that PD is guilty of the same sins to the same degree as Turn 10 is when it comes to track modeling.

Your posting profile looks like that of a members that actively searches for specific topics and those topics only. You have contributed to no other part of the site, and seem to actively target threads and posts that present issue with one companies product while defending another.

Its not in any way an AUP issue, but it is the kind of posting behaviour that sets the staffs alarm bells ringing.

Another point. Even though i have mentioned Forza's Nurb has nothing to do with real world, be it past present or future, i have never passed the judgement on how i view Forza 4 as a game, and nothing should suggest me being in an "anti Forza" camp. My objectivity in this particular debate remains neutral.

In my opinion your posts come across as far from neutral.

You also seem to have forgotten you posted this...

Two - some curbs in Forza will slow you down to a crawl - in a law of physics defying manner - just because Turn 10 fells like it. But only you, a player, as the AI drives different copies of the game. The game where physical properties of the track allows you to drive through sand and grass full speed. May be because AI is just "that" good.

If curb accuracy is your peeve - Forza must drive you bonkers. Am i right or am i right?

Quite what that has to do with Laguna Seca or the 'ring I'm not sure, but it ceratinly would seem to be you passing view on how you see parts of Forza 4, the game.

I also would like to ask you. Is it really necessary to bring up my posting pattern to this discussion? Cause there's a goldmine of information me and you can dig up on other participants of this thread by looking at their posting patterns. Specifically ones who might have labeled me as a "raging moron".

You opened the door on posting without an agenda, don't then complain if members check to see if they feel that holds true.

As for comments other members make, if you feel its an AUP violation then use the report button and the staff will deal with it. I've issued more than enough warnings and infractions in thread and to members on both camps in this thread (as many of those contributing right know can confirm).

Oh - and please stop double posting, use the edit button if you need to add more to a post and no one has posted after you.

Deleted while i read up on double posting rules.

Here you go...

https://www.gtplanet.net/faq/#double_posting

“Double posting” occurs when a user makes two consecutive posts, one after another. If this is done for no apparent reason, or if the posts are unimportant, “double posting” is looked down upon and may result in a warning or infraction for “spam”. You can edit any of your forum posts on GTPlanet at any time, and this is generally the best option to take if you have more to add to the discussion. However, it is not expressly forbidden, and can be useful in many cases. For example, if a reasonable amount of time has passed or you have significant information to add to the topic, present it in a new post so that others, including thread subscribers, are made aware of the update.

Scaff

 

[GT6mebe]

And you do the exact. same. thing.
Where's your proof that the camber is not, in fact, missing from certain corners on Laguna Seca like Scaff, myself, and multiple others have asked you to provide? Oh, that's right, you don't have any proof except your "priceless opinions" do you?
Pot-Kettle.

Thats not how it works. The general norm was that GT5's Laguna Seca is fine...certain people CLAIMED it was not. Therefore those people will have to disprove it. If GT5's LGS being wrong was the norm then we would have to prove that it is accurate. You made the claim so back it up.... don't just quit and say the converse.

By the way people there has not been a single fact on the last pages in this debate that GT's LG is bad. All of it has been SPECULATION (visual), personal preferences or problems or a combination of both. The only evidence for GT LGS being bad is that wikipedia exert that deems it outdated but not inaccurate ( not a nearly in the same league as Forza 4 Nurburgring inaccuracies which was a claim made by a certain individual, dont know who though )

It's that guy who isn't dismissive of everyone's opinions.

No what he has doen is dismissed everyone's opinions as being facts. Which is what everyone should do.

That's how it would work if he were the only person claiming such. Unfortunately for you, he isn't, and therefore the burden of proof to the contrary falls on you.

You know this fits perfectly with my paragraph above except the norm is that GT5's LG is decent or fine. It is only in this thread and Forzaplanet (I think we can see the connection) that GT5's LG accuracy has been dismissed.

Did I use Laguna Seca to excuse FM4's 'ring?

No YOU did not but a certain someone else did use it as counter acting the pathetic excuse of FM nurburgring and this is how this all started ( and has gone on for far too long). Neither party has any facts (which I admit are difficult to obtain) on GT5's inaccuracies. Can we move on please.

Just trying some of the seasonals and it made me realize why I put GT5 on the shelf for as long as it was. The A.I. is completely braindead, at least they were able to avoid me after I got spun out twice by their being unaware of my existence while moving.

What? They took you out. GT5's AI are by far the least aggressive AI I have ever sen and though that is not a compliment they at least race safely. The only time they take you out is if you brake too early, or do not over take properly.

All we can do is show videos and pictures (both of which have been shown) and point out the differences. If some of use are more challanged then others to spot those differences, that's not our problem. The situation here is that a number of people are saying one thing and all agreeing with each other, and you are disagreeing.

We too have shown videos to show accuracies. If some are in denial to accept these accuracies (vice veras btw) then what can one do. I agree with him as would numerous Gt planet users. Just because everyone says something does not justify it at all.

What's not so fine is that you have been shown irrefutable evidence (Scaff's picture) that goes against your claims,

Scaff himself said that is was inaccurate as the picture was at different angles etc yet you claim it as irrefutable evidence lol.

You also have been shown evidence in videos by multiple people who have pointed out in those videos where they feel the track is incorrect and even WHY they feel that way (walls aren't right because they're too close; turn isn't right because it's too wide, etc.) and you respond with nothing more than "Looks ok to me."

Notice they feel. Let me say that again. They (not everyone). Feel (do not know 100 percent). The track does look fine to me too.

You ask for "proof" and you are given as good of "proof" as can exist for a game

We aks for proof. You gave us "proof". See the difference one is actual proof. I admit it is difficult but I can easily prove FM4 inaccuracy with a track by Turn 10 admitting it, OBVIOUS visual differences, and by measuring the length in game with a car travelling at constant speed. There are people who have proved mind blowing theories and yet you find it difficult to disprove a game.

All you have to defend your viewpoint is "looks ok to me" which is essentially the same as saying "I can't hear you" in a face-to-face argument; it doesn't support your position, it doesn't help you sound more legitimate, and it makes you seem like you have your head in the sand.

This is the situation where one group says something look good and another says it does not. Notice the word LOOK. Not IS.

At the end of all of it, I still don't see how you're doing anything different from T12 or Toronado when you refuse to provide evidence.

Yup Neither have provided proof. Its just a circle of egos trying to undercut each other and the make the other look stupid on the internet when in all seriousness the Internet can not be taken seriously.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

You're quite correct! I've never made it a mistery that i use the same evidence as everyone else! But here's the thing. The burden of proof lies on the party making claims (hello there Toronado), not on someone who happens to disagree. Especially when we all, i'm sure, own GT5 and are capable of firing up Laguna, drive up to the corner in question and seeing for ourselves. Which i did, and someone like Toronado most likely didn't, hence his outrageous claims.

First, this isn't American court, so the same rules of proof don't apply. Here, if you make a claim, you back it up, regardless of if you're the "accuser" or the "defender" if you make a claim and are asked to back it up, you need to. You don't get a bye on that just cause "He said it first."
Second, there is no way to conclusively prove anything in a video game without being able to see the code, because there is no way to physically compare it to reality. All we can do is show videos and pictures (both of which have been shown) and point out the differences. If some of use are more challanged then others to spot those differences, that's not our problem. The situation here is that a number of people are saying one thing and all agreeing with each other, and you are disagreeing.
That's fine, disagreement is what makes a debate. What's not so fine is that you have been shown irrefutable evidence (Scaff's picture) that goes against your claims, and you changed to making a new claim (it was like GT5 before '06) without backing that up at all. You also have been shown evidence in videos by multiple people who have pointed out in those videos where they feel the track is incorrect and even WHY they feel that way (walls aren't right because they're too close; turn isn't right because it's too wide, etc.) and you respond with nothing more than "Looks ok to me."
You see the issue? You ask for "proof" and you are given as good of "proof" as can exist for a game, and still refuse to say anything concrete about said evidence. All you have to defend your viewpoint is "looks ok to me" which is essentially the same as saying "I can't hear you" in a face-to-face argument; it doesn't support your position, it doesn't help you sound more legitimate, and it makes you seem like you have your head in the sand.
Add to that the fact that all of the people saying it's wrong agree with each other in where and how it's wrong, and you have whats called a 'preponderance of evidence' that supports the viewpoint that Laguna is wrong, whereas all you have to support the viewpoint that it's right is "looks ok to me."

At the end of all of it, I still don't see how you're doing anything different from T12 or Toronado when you refuse to provide evidence.

 

[Terronium-12]

Who says I didn't provide any sort of proof? Did I not watch the video he posted that disproved the point he was attempting to make?

Did I not say, and I quote "the third corner hits the apex much earlier than in the real life lap. That's one.

The bridge also appeared further away in GT5. That's two."?

I didn't watch the entirety of the video as I couldn't put up with the buffering, but the points I do acknowledge are in-line with several others.

 

[Fat Old Sun]

Look everyone: It's that guy who isn't dismissive of everyone's opinions.


I suggest you step away from the backhoe before the hole you've dug collapses on itself. You're opening doors you shouldn't be opening, both because it makes you massively hypocritical and because you were told by Scaff to stop opening them.

What i called white noise was your excersises in being adorable, comically smug, have i missed any other of your attempts to act condescending toward your opponents and hoping that would support your argument in any way. I am distilling this discussion to bare minimum to keep your focus straight. Do you have a proof that the corner leading to the corckscrew is flat?

 

[Tornado]

Funny thing, he didn't. Somebody else did, and Toronado simply jumped to the opportunity. He can't be bothered to hold anyone's hand, remember?

I posted the initial video. I detailed exactly what I found wrong with the track in the game before I did so, and reiterated most of them after I posted the video.

That I didn't take the time to go through it with a fine tooth comb is irrelevant, because (surprise surprise) when someone actually did (someone who had driven on the track itself, no less) you outright ignored them. Exactly like I said you would when I decided not to bother doing so.







And the fantastically funny thing is, I didn't even make the initial claim. I merely made a joke regarding how the standard response for anything about problems in GT5 or good things about Forza is to dump on the 'Ring. Which certain people have done in this thread since this debate started, so it was hardly out of place to tell. I seem to recall the only reason I got in it with you was because you said that problems people have with Laguna Seca in GT5 were "imaginary."

What i called white noise was your excersises in being adorable, comically smug, have i missed any other of your attempts to act condescending toward your opponents and hoping that would support your argument in any way.

Once again: Stop bitching when people respond in kind to things that you start pulling. I wasn't the one who called people's problems with Laguna Seca in GT5 "imaginary." I wasn't the one who dragged up the other topic in an attempt at... how did you put it? "Character assassination." That was all on you, and if you really want to play the "comb through people's posting history to show they are fools" game, go right ahead. I've got over 20000 of them for you to look through. Have fun.

By the way people there has not been a single fact on the last pages in this debate that GT's LG is bad. All of it has been SPECULATION (visual), personal preferences or problems or a combination of both.

Honestly? Your grasp of these terms is so incredibly skewed that you have no place making these judgements. You claimed one of the things I said (that the wall alongside the main straight was too close to the track) as being brought on by depth perception, and didn't bother responding when I pointed at that perception has nothing to do with whether the wall is immediately alongside the track or several feet away from it. You've claimed a number of things regarding Forza's physics which were immediately proven untrue, and made several statements which were challenged but you ignored as if they never happened. You really should quit while you are ahead.

 

[Scaff]

By the way people there has not been a single fact on the last pages in this debate that GT's LG is bad. All of it has been SPECULATION (visual), personal preferences or problems or a combination of both. The only evidence for GT LGS being bad is that wikipedia exert that deems it outdated but not inaccurate ( not a nearly in the same league as Forza 4 Nurburgring inaccuracies which was a claim made by a certain individual, dont know who though )

No YOU did not but a certain someone else did use it as counter acting the pathetic excuse of FM nurburgring and this is how this all started ( and has gone on for far too long). Neither party has any facts (which I admit are difficult to obtain) on GT5's inaccuracies. Can we move on please.

How this discussion started is totally aside from the fact that we are now discussing it, and the 'ring doesn't need to keep being brought back in (and only two people are now doing that).

What I would like to know is (given what you have said above) do you believe that the clear difference in corner profile below is 'speculation'?

No what he has doen is dismissed everyone's opinions as being facts. Which is what everyone should do.

One of the members who's post was dismissed had driven the track and as such, while still opinion, it carries weight. To pretty much dismiss it out of hand (when visual images back up one of the major points made) should not be done lightly.

Scaff himself said that is was inaccurate as the picture was at different angles etc yet you claim it as irrefutable evidence lol.

Do not miss-quote me and take it out of context again.

I did not say it was inaccurate (why the hell would I have posted it if it was definitively inaccurate), what I said was...

Its the final approach to the corkscrew and while the angles are not exactly the same, its close enough to be of interest.

and

Now, as I mentioned above a margin for error will always exist in these comparisons

and

As I said myself none of this is 100% conclusive.

...and I said all of that in regard to the first image, not the second one.

Do not do this again...

You will not knowingly post any material that is false, misleading, or inaccurate.

You know this fits perfectly with my paragraph above except the norm is that GT5's LG is decent or fine. It is only in this thread and Forzaplanet (I think we can see the connection) that GT5's LG accuracy has been dismissed.

Its not been dismissed, but it is being discussed. Now please either contribute to it in a meaningful manner, rather than simply complaining that its under discussion.


By the way, I did you the courtesy of replying to you questions regarding the second Cobra test, I'm still awaiting your description of carrying out the test in GT5 and why the differences happen (and more specifically why you can do a full bore launch in a Cobra without the rear stepping out even slightly).


Scaff

 

[MagpieRacer]

Scaff honestly is it worth the bother? Your wearing your keys down explaining stuff and its clearly being ignored.

I used the comparison video and made a list of inaccuracies which has been completely ignored so what is the point in trying to make points and show evidence. He keeps saying wheres the evidence but it is everywhere over the past 4 pages.

My word this is stupid.

BTW, Scaff, I can't test this with my wheel but are FF cars in GT5 affected by torque steer on full throttle launches? Should be a similair test to the Cobra one, just curious to know really.

 

[Scaff]

BTW, Scaff, I can't test this with my wheel but are FF cars in GT5 affected by torque steer on full throttle launches? Should be a similair test to the Cobra one, just curious to know really.

I've not actively tested for FWD torque steer in either GT5 or FM4, looks like I've got some new work to do.

👍

Scaff

 

[Fat Old Sun]

I posted the initial video.

The video was posted by GT6mebe on the same page 6 hours prior to your post. Excuse me while i find it hard to believe that you stumbled upon that video independently.

I detailed exactly what I found wrong with the track in the game before I did so, and reiterated most of them after I posted the video.

Yes, you did it by claiming that the turn leading up to the corkscrew was completely flat. The video did not suggest you were right. So the question still stands, if the corner is flat, as you claim, can you prove it?

That I didn't take the time to go through it with a fine tooth comb is irrelevant, because (surprise surprise) when someone actually did (someone who had driven on the track itself, no less) you outright ignored them.

Incorrect. I've attempted to get to the bottom of that poster's problems with the track, starting with the first item on the list, as referenced here. As it turns out his explanation was not any better then yours (i see things that you don't). Turns out he's got an agenda as well.

And the fantastically funny thing is, I didn't even make the initial claim. I merely made a joke regarding how the standard response for anything about problems in GT5 or good things about Forza is to dump on the 'Ring. Which certain people have done in this thread since this debate started, so it was hardly out of place to tell.

To which i've replied that standard defense when Forza's Nurb is brought up is to drag in Laguna, as it was done by you here and in this thread by FyreandIce here

I seem to recall the only reason I got in it with you was because you said that problems people have with Laguna Seca in GT5 were "imaginary."

Accordind to the discussion we had in this thread, as well as here so far, they are, indeed, are imaginary.

Once again: Stop bitching when people respond in kind to things that you start pulling.

Drop your condescending tone.

I wasn't the one who called people's problems with Laguna Seca in GT5 "imaginary."

You were the one to make an unsupported claim. You were the one to fall back on "evidence" supplied by others in this thread (GT6mebe). You were the one who still can not conclusevly show that the corner leading to a corckscrew is indeed flat.

I wasn't the one who dragged up the other topic in an attempt at... how did you put it? "Character assassination."

I brought up the other topic because it is directly linked to the discussion we're having in this thread. It goes through alot of the same points. It also perfectly illustrates your agility when it comes to dodging when asked to support your outrageous claims.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I've not actively tested for FWD torque steer in either GT5 or FM4, looks like I've got some new work to do.

👍

Scaff

I tried it on Forza 4 using the Focus RS, without holding the wheel it does pull the car to the right on a full throttle launch.

 

[Tornado]

The video was posted by GT6mebe on the same page 6 hours prior to your post. Excuse me while i find it hard to believe that you stumbled upon that video independently.

Except the video I posted and the video GT6mebe posted were two different videos. Which means you can't even get things straight when you try to accuse people of something irrelevant.


Which I think (when combined with how you keep focusing on my posts and ignoring all of the other ones) is all that needs to be said for how little you were ever actually interested in learning anything.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Just trying some of the seasonals and it made me realize why I put GT5 on the shelf for as long as it was. The A.I. is completely braindead, at least they were able to avoid me after I got spun out twice by their being unaware of my existence while moving.

Forza 4 isn't much better, but at least the A.I. will give a little breathing room before taking you out.

Really is a shame that we can't have a console game with good A.I. and physics.

The AI is getting better in GT5. I noticed it in B Spec. In A Spec unless running a low PP car, the AI is really nothing to worry about yet for me, so will be good if PD made them faster.

Have you tried the new seasonal time trial at Spa, the one in the wet? If not then you might want to as it will give a reason why to keep GT5 off the shelf and in the PS3. Ran a few laps earlier, it is a magical feeling, trying to find grip on such a flowing track with a fast car. If anyone likes rivals in Forza, then currently you can race my ghost in the current Wet Spa TT in GT5 although most likely not for long.




About Laguna Seca. I think PD made a hybrid of the 2004 and 2010 version of the track. Changed the curbing and the sponsors of the 2004 track in GT4 to the 2010 version and probably touched up some parts of the track. Sure the track is not perfect in GT5, but it still is reasonable. Also the greenness, Laguna Seca can look green depending on time of year but problem in GT5 is that PD use the same colour green for grass on all tracks, so it looks off for not being a darker green. Hopefully PD redo this track.



@Scaff

I will reply later this month to previous posts when I got a bit more free time.

 

[FyreandIce]

No YOU did not but a certain someone else did use it as counter acting the pathetic excuse of FM nurburgring and this is how this all started ( and has gone on for far too long). Neither party has any facts (which I admit are difficult to obtain) on GT5's inaccuracies. Can we move on please.

Maybe you should read up.

It simply started as pro GT arguement "omg Forza track accuracy sucks! Look at Nurburgring!"

Counter Aruguement "Because GT 5 is perfect isn't it? *cough* Laguna Seca *cough*"

*edit* And no, these are not exact posts, they are simply translations.

Now the illusion some people have that GT5 is always perfect has been shattered and they are trying to pick up the pieces.

Interesting video I found while browsing forzaplanet.


Laser scanned (iRacing) vs GPS scanned (FM3, FM4 uses roughly the same model) vs unknown "scanned" (GT5)

FM3 looks almost identical to iRacing while it's quite obvious how poor the GT5 model is. How can they even call that the Corkscrew?

Oh and the FM Nurburgring is 100% perfect. This is a simple fact until you can provide your own source of proof which I cannot dismiss with illogical arguments.

Sound familiar?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Maybe you should read up.

It simply started as pro GT arguement "omg Forza track accuracy sucks! Look at Nurburgring!"

Counter Aruguement "Because GT 5 is perfect isn't it? *cough* Laguna Seca *cough*"

Now the illusion some people have that GT5 is always perfect has been shattered and they are trying to pick up the pieces.

Interesting video I found while browsing forzaplanet.


Laser scanned (iRacing) vs GPS scanned (FM3, FM4 uses roughly the same model) vs unknown "scanned" (GT5)

FM3 looks almost identical to iRacing while it's quite obvious how poor the GT5 model is. How can they even call that the Corkscrew?

Oh and the FM Nurburgring is 100% perfect. This is a simple fact until you can provide your own source of proof which I cannot dismiss with illogical arguments.

Sound familiar?

Looks like T10 have done what PD have done, update their old track with the 'newer' blue curbing but they did not update the sponsors.

 

[MagpieRacer]

iRacings one is phenominal, although it is hard to drive.

 

[Fat Old Sun]

Except the video I posted and the video GT6mebe posted were two different videos.

Point taken.

Which I think (when combined with how you keep focusing on my posts and ignoring all of the other ones) is all that needs to be said for how little you were ever actually interested in learning anything.

Quite frankly, the only thing that i'd like you to clarify is your claim to the flatness of the corner leading to the corckscrew. Then we'll examine other corners that you claimed are flat. You were the first one to draw my attention with such a claim. The video that you provided as well as tne videos provided by GT6mebe and myself, suggest that you are incorrect.

The end result of this discussion is going to be the end of Laguna being a beating dummy for Forza supporters everytime someone rightfully mentiones Turn 10's sloppyiness in track modelling.

 

[FyreandIce]

The end result of this discussion is going to be the end of Laguna being a beating dummy for Forza supporters everytime someone rightfully mentiones Turn 10's sloppyiness in track modelling.

Funny you say that because FMs Nurburgring is always brought up before GTs Laguna Seca is.

Stop being so hypocritical.

PDs sloppy track work.

PS2 track ports.

Terrible Laguna Seca model.

Terrible Monaco model.

 

[Scaff]

The end result of this discussion is going to be the end of Laguna being a beating dummy for Forza supporters everytime someone rightfully mentiones Turn 10's sloppyiness in track modelling.

This sounds a lot like you have already decided on what the outcome will be, which is hardly the agenda free approach you have championed.

I tried it on Forza 4 using the Focus RS, without holding the wheel it does pull the car to the right on a full throttle launch.

I used a Focus ST on both FM4 and GT5, with the following results:





FM4 replay with telemetry is on my SF.

And now I need sleep.


Scaff

 

[FyreandIce]

Were you using an FFB wheel for those tests?

I know that with a pad the torque steer really doesn't happen (because it can't) but with a wheel it definitely pulls to the side in Forza.

 

[Scaff]

Were you using an FFB wheel for those tests?

I know that with a pad the torque steer really doesn't happen (because it can't) but with a wheel it definitely pulls to the side in Forza.

Nope they were both done with a pad, didn't have the time to get a wheel out.

The FM4 one was done with the steering set to sim and does get a degree of torque steer to the left in this case.

GT5 had none, but with not equivalent of sim on pad I want to redo that one with a wheel when I can.

Scaff

 

[FyreandIce]

Nope they were both done with a pad, didn't have the time to get a wheel out.

The FM4 one was done with the steering set to sim and does get a degree of torque steer to the left in this case.

GT5 had none, but with not equivalent of sim on pad I want to redo that one with a wheel when I can.

Scaff

I look forward to the with a wheel tests.

The slight veering to the left in FM4 looks more like a slight "LSD" effect similar to the Cobra video you posted.

 

[Fat Old Sun]

Then I would like an explanation as to why you described me an not being objective and that I was insisting on this being a truism?

Since we agreed that the screenshot in question is open for interpretation and not quite conclusive, i believe your objectivity is not in question.

Deliberately misleading posts are an AUP violation and you clearly attributed a position to me that I had in no way presented, and be aware this is not a situation that is taken lightly.

I took your opinion a certain way, you clarified, we agreed. I think you are reading a bit much into it.

Did you not describe presenting the video alone as evidence to be insufficient?

Certainly. That is why i asked the person making a claim to present something more substantial.

You have mocked the use of video evidence alone in at least two posts, and

What i've mocked is the notion that someones conclusion based on a 3rd party video is somehow more valid than mine.

I think you will find that I have done considerably more than just reference videos.

The time you've spent putting together the screenshots is certainly appreciated.

Quite frankly it doesn't bother me how it entered into the discussion,

It does bother me though. That is the sole reason i've entered the discussion.

I've gone out of my way to provide material that could be discussed in a meaningful way, I don't feel that asking for reciprocation on this one point is to much to ask.

Fair enough. My apologies for shakiness. Let's take a look at how exactly flat the corner in your first screenshot is.

A question, are you attributing the bump to the change of corner profile?

I attribute changes to the "bump" as having an effect on a corner profile.

A point I stand by. Until I posted the images the only point you acknowledged on track (not retaining walls, etc) was an out of place bump, something that is quite different to a change to a corners profile.

The points i've acknowledged (and don't see any reason to exclude differences in trackside objects), suggest that they weren't "blindly" dismissed. You have no point to stand by. You are simply incorrect.

Did I use Laguna Seca to excuse FM4's 'ring?

Nope, and i never suggested you did.

No would be the answer, I have always freely acknowledged the issues it has and to be blunt this discussion has moved past that point. The only one still bringing it up is you.

Would you mind to clarify then, as to what are we discussing now?

Your posting profile looks like that of a members that actively searches for specific topics and those topics only. You have contributed to no other part of the site, and seem to actively target threads and posts that present issue with one companies product while defending another.

The last discussion we had (on exact same topic, mind you) was over 2 months ago. That hardly qualifies as "active". I have a problem with specific issue, which i've stated before, and i quote myself: "Laguna being a beating dummy for Forza supporters everytime someone rightfully mentiones Turn 10's sloppyiness in track modelling". That is why i'm in this thread. And it would be nice to get to the bottom of this, starting with the claim by Toronado that the corner leading to the corkscrew is flat.

Its not in any way an AUP issue, but it is the kind of posting behaviour that sets the staffs alarm bells ringing.

I would prefer the content of my posts to be under scrutiny, and not to be profiled based on which topics i choose to contribute to.

In my opinion your posts come across as far from neutral.

You are entitled to your opinion.

You also seem to have forgotten you posted this...

Quite what that has to do with Laguna Seca or the 'ring I'm not sure, but it ceratinly would seem to be you passing view on how you see parts of Forza 4, the game.

I assure you, parts don't ruin the whole for me. Be it Forza or GT5.

You opened the door on posting without an agenda, don't then complain if members check to see if they feel that holds true.

I thought i made it clear that my claim to not to have an agenda was a joke.


Edited to add:

One of the members who's post was dismissed had driven the track and as such, while still opinion, it carries weight. To pretty much dismiss it out of hand (when visual images back up one of the major points made) should not be done lightly.

Let's look at his post history though (this is fun). Looks like he's got an agenda

He thinks that GT fans are "sheep following the "great leader" right off a cliff". I think he's biased. What do you think?

As far as the real world experience goes, other people with real experience chimed in before. Let's not dismiss that opinion either.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

Incorrect. I've attempted to get to the bottom of that poster's problems with the track, starting with the first item on the list, as referenced here. As it turns out his explanation was not any better then yours (i see things that you don't). Turns out he's got an agenda as well.

Look in the video at 0:39-0:44 and it is quite clear that the track on the main strait is wider. But beyond even that, look at 0:52-0:53, more specifically, the distance between the support of the Start/Finish bridge and the outside wall. There is clearly more space in the GT5 footage than in the real one. That's just what you can see in that one vid for evidence.

^^Hardly an "unsubstantiated opinion" Look at the bridge, even more specifically the distance between the writing on the bridge and the edges of said bridge. The bridge is wider in GT5 than in real life. Why would the bridge be wider if the track wasn't wider? Plus, that's literally the only point in any of my post(s) that you've even tried to refute.
As for my "agenda"- Cool story bro. I guess you can see which end of that spectrum you fall into. Or does that evidence say something different to you than the rest of us too?
Either way, your dismissive and combative attitude even when presented with irrefutable evidence contrary to your own "agenda" (Scaff's pic) has earned you only the 2nd ever place on my ignore list. Congratulations!

 

[Terronium-12]

You're still trying to get through to him?

I realize you're ignoring him now, but you should have just left it at that; you know he's going to have some painstakingly witty retort.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

There's quite obviously a second rule as well:

Whenever Forza's Nurb gets mentioned - bring up GT5's Laguna - with it's imaginary problems like "corckscrew is kinda off". I tell you, it never fails.

It was proven in this thread that it is off. Unless you have evidence to prove that it isn't, I'm sure we'd all like to see. Or is heresay all you're bringing?

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

You're still trying to get through to him?

I realize you're ignoring him now, but you should have just left it at that; you know he's going to have some painstakingly witty retort.

Oh I'm sure he will. It will sadly fall on deaf ears though.

Just a couple more things before his voice is lost to me forever though:

Let's look at his post history though (this is fun). Looks like he's got an agenda

He thinks that GT fans are "sheep following the "great leader" right off a cliff". I think he's biased. What do you think?

1st- That is an analogy; also, it is not my opinion of all GT fans. If you read the whole quote instead of this carefully selected part, you will see that I say "So many of [GT5's] fans are willing to take what's given with absolutely no reservations, it's like they're sheep following the "great leader" right off a cliff." Which is So many =/= all, a nuance of wording that I thought you of all people would catch, but I guess it doesn't support your own 'agenda' so why bother?
2nd- My opinion of a game's fans =/= my opinion of that game. I really have no bias between GT5 and Forza. I own both, play both (though FM4 more cause I have more friends that play it) and enjoy both. There are aspects of both games that I like, and aspects that I dislike. The 'ring in FM4 for instance I dislike, and Laguna in GT5 I dislike. If that's bias then I guess you're right.
Also, I fail to see how when I literally never mention FM4 in ANY of my posts on GT5's Laguna, the fact that I might like it better would make my points about GT5's Laguna less valid, but again, you 'agenda' isn't supported, so why bother with logic?

As far as the real world experience goes, other people with real experience chimed in before. Let's not dismiss that opinion either.

I'm not discounting Chris's opinion. There's a difference between "pretty good" and 100% perfect though, isn't there?


EDIT: Sun, I'm also liking how you completely ignored This post and this one and this one an 20/21 of this one.
And that's just stuff I've posted. Seem pretty selective about what you "respond" to these days....

 

[Fat Old Sun]

Oh I'm sure he will. It will sadly fall on deaf ears though.

Just a couple more things before his voice is lost to me forever though:

Oh what a tragedy. You do seem to be strangely drawn to keep responding to my posts.

1st- That is an analogy; also, it is not my opinion of all GT fans. If you read the whole quote instead of this carefully selected part, you will see that I say "So many of [GT5's] fans are willing to take what's given with absolutely no reservations, it's like they're sheep following the "great leader" right off a cliff." Which is So many =/= all, a nuance of wording that I thought you of all people would catch, but I guess it doesn't support your own 'agenda' so why bother?

I didn't imply you said all. But even "some" in the context of your "thought" is more then enough to conclude that you got a huge axe to grind.

2nd- My opinion of a game's fans =/= my opinion of that game. I really have no bias between GT5 and Forza. I own both, play both (though FM4 more cause I have more friends that play it) and enjoy both. There are aspects of both games that I like, and aspects that I dislike. The 'ring in FM4 for instance I dislike, and Laguna in GT5 I dislike. If that's bias then I guess you're right.

You are not conversing with a game here, but with real people. If you find it important to label your opponents as "sheep" en masse, it sure weighs down your opinion on the matter.

I'm not discounting Chris's opinion. There's a difference between "pretty good" and 100% perfect though, isn't there?

I didn't claim it was 100% perfect.

EDIT: Sun, I'm also liking how you completely ignored This post and this one and this one an 20/21 of this one.
And that's just stuff I've posted. Seem pretty selective about what you "respond" to these days....

They were not ignored. They were addressed by me and GT6mebe here and here. As far as your demands that I have to provide the evidence that you are right, i find them laughable. You've been told numerous time to find the evidence to support your claims on your own, i am not doing it for you.

Now to your your "explanation" of point number "1 out of 21". Your musings about the width of the bridge directly corresponding to the track width are fundamentally wrong for the reason of the changes made to pedestrian bridges and embankments as i've referenced before in this article. Have it occurred to you that the bridge might have changed in the years that passed since PD mapped the track?

So, before we move on to the next point on your list, you still have to provide the evidence to back up your claim number 1. But then again, who am i kidding.

It was proven in this thread that it is off. Unless you have evidence to prove that it isn't, I'm sure we'd all like to see or is heresay all you're bringing?

Where exactly has it been proven?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

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