FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Terronium-12]

Can I ask a serious question? Excuse me for being frank ahead of time:

Who gives a damn where the experience came from? Kazunori has first-hand experience; who gives a damn? Dan receives third-party input experience; again, who gives a damn? I know I don't and while many people here thrive to hold on to every little thing Kazunori says and does, fact of the matter is even with all of that experience there are still so many things both games do wrong, or not at all, that the experience involved is negligible. Also, for anyone who cares to argue such a point, getting feedback from longstanding professionals is miles better than someone who (to my knowledge...I don't follow either's endeavors or even care much) only races once a year for 24 hours. Even if that weren't the case, would you rather get feedback from Kazunori Yamauchi, or Sebastien Loeb, David Coulthard, Tom Kristensen, Allan McNish, etc, etc?

As long as the game is intriguing (which, to me, is something GT5 isn't) I wouldn't care if the experience came from some intellectually-advanced ape. Or if there were any professional input whatsoever. Before I close out, allow me to express something which I find to be a double standard: let's consider the possibility that Dan or someone else involved with Turn 10 engages in professional racing -- what then? Every fanboy under the sun: "They're just copying PD, as usual!"

 

[Luminis]

I find it very amusing how he avoids the "personal race experience" question. And in desperate need for better arguments, he mentions his Le Mans 2009 trip, where he got some cool company, some food and drove a supercar.

[...]

In the best FM vs GT spirit, Kaz has to offer this

You went through quite some videos only to prove one thing: Kaz's experiences seemingly didn't translate to GT5 at all. I would've assumed that, someone who experienced it first hand, would've known that a 24H race is not done by a single person, for example.
Then again, Kaz's perfectionism didn't stop GT5 from ending up with 80% sub-standard, recycled cars without an interior.
As it appears, Kaz's personal experiences doesn't change much about GT5... and I wouldn't call the racing in GT5 outstanding, either.

So... Yeah. I guess being good at managing a team, time and resources is a more valuable skill to have than the racing experience - there's enough other people to consult for that.

As others have said, what Kaz wants or does isn't very important - the reesult is. And I don't see the influence of a racer in GT5. And I've looked pretty hard for that kind of stuff for about two and a half months

 

[Bogie 19th]

Kaz has first hand experience, and Dan hires people with first hand experience. Sounds like a win win to me either way.

 

[JDMKING13]

This is a funny thread anyway I just played fm3 I was pumped to customize my s2000 but the drive was bad the stock tires are so damn grippy I'm hoping fm4 is not like this in the end Its about the physics. I see people laughing at the standard cars in gt5 but the real funny thing is they drive better than the fm3 cars. I'm hoping turn ten nailed it with the new tire physics that's going to be the breaker for me. @ bogie very funny man.

 

[alucard0712]

I think personal expirience is much more important than "third party people". We know this from our lives. Fact that Kaz do not tranferring it to GT can be he is too far from it right now (he said that GT5 will be 50% of his vision), or other problems (like number of employers, pure hand-made cars, obsession with detail etc...) I will trade little, unperfect but personal and honest expirience to Dan's knowledge from other drivers every day. Just my choice, I feel like that.

 

[Luminis]

Again, what good is personal experience if the person who's gathered it isn't able to put it to good use? It completely invalidates the point of having personal experience in the first place.

Anyways, I'm still hoping for someone to succeed Kaz as the managing director of GT. They should just keep Kaz for the 'artistic' advice and get someone to do the management stuff for him... We might end up with the best of both worlds, then.

 

[cuco33]

Such an obsession with detail that the wrong engine found it's way into a premium car (R8), or the fact that a standard car weighs 400lb more than the real thing (Volvo)


Neither game is perfect and both have their faults. This has been said way too many times though. I don't mind either way. I like the fact that Kaz races professionally, even if he's deemed a rookie. It can add to the experience if he makes tweaks to the game. I think he and his company were so sidetracked with other projects that the end result was what we got with GT5. Good game but not great by any means. With Forza, I also like the fact that they go asking pro drivers and their inputs. That too adds to the game, but at least Forza titles are launched within a reasonable amount of time. I agree with Bogie, win win in both cases.

Personally, I think Kaz needs to stay in place as the head, if not one of the heads of PD. It's his vision that got most of us drooling over since the first GT. The management side of things... yeah they need someone to make sure it's on track, and someone with enough balls to go and tell others 'no, that will delay/impact the game... we don't care about 3D, 4K tech demos, etc etc'

 

[alucard0712]

Again, what good is personal experience if the person who's gathered it isn't able to put it to good use? It completely invalidates the point of having personal experience in the first place.

Anyways, I'm still hoping for someone to succeed Kaz as the managing director of GT. They should just keep Kaz for the 'artistic' advice and get someone to do the management stuff for him... We might end up with the best of both worlds, then.

Agreed. But anyway - he has that expirience and he really want's to put it to the game. He loves details. I think if PD is enlarging - we can really forget about many problems in future.

 

[Luminis]

I think if PD is enlarging - we can really forget about many problems in future.

I sure hope they do. If they are, a lot of what was wrong with GT5 for my tastes good be rectified. If they work out some of the wird design decisions, I'd probably end up purchaising GT6.

 

[boxox]

This is like arguing who made the most realistic war movie.

Based on the wartime experience of the guy with producer credit.

 

[JDMKING13]

I think personal expirience is much more important than "third party people". We know this from our lives. Fact that Kaz do not tranferring it to GT can be he is too far from it right now (he said that GT5 will be 50% of his vision), or other problems (like number of employers, pure hand-made cars, obsession with detail etc...) I will trade little, unperfect but personal and honest expirience to Dan's knowledge from other drivers every day. Just my choice, I feel like that.

I can go with you on that. The racing experience in gt5 is better than fm3 IMO what I love about online is that people can just join the room and come out the pits like it's a real track day. Weather and night racing is pure awesome in gt5 the best driver in the day may not be that good at night. I'm in a league and we only race on custome tracks and the night tracks are pure he'll to remember.

 

[alucard0712]

I sure hope they do. If they are, a lot of what was wrong with GT5 for my tastes good be rectified. If they work out some of the wird design decisions, I'd probably end up purchaising GT6.

Imagine GT6 with virtual reallity - perfect 3D with head movement and 3D sound...
I think Kaz and PD are hearing us!

 

[theotherspongey]

Imagine GT6 with virtual reallity - perfect 3D with head movement and 3D sound...
I think Kaz and PD are hearing us!

Imagine GT5 with good detailed cars

 

[Chad Esposito]

double post...

 

[theotherspongey]

What is really funny is that this thread has already 59 pages of people very seriously "debating" about two crappy games. Don't take me wrong, I own & enjoy both, if forced to choose, I would stay with Forza, since I love its cars, and hate the idiocy/irrelevance of secondary fluff by Kazunori, just to mention a few dislikes about GT5.

While GT5 has "better" physics, both games suck at that big time. When I played rFactor-GTR2 and others with similar physics a few years ago, then played Live for Speed, then played iRacing, I just felt that GT5 was RUBBISH just like Forza. So, now I just play both games as an easy funny arcady thing with pretty graphics and cars, but just that...

In my opinion, this thread is like putting a bunch of "engineers" debating which car's chassis is more efficient, a Hot Wheels or a Matchbox.

Pretty useless, since guys will never reach a consensus, and GT5 must learn not from Forza and vice-versa, both should learn from Live for Speed, and the likes if we want to behave like hardcore racing gamers. Not like easily impressionable graphics lovers and little secondary elements like "first hand racing experience, or auto vista".

Please quote someone that has said "both games are crap"

 

[Luminis]

Pretty useless, since guys will never reach a consensus, and GT5 must learn not from Forza and vice-versa, both should learn from Live for Speed, and the likes if we want to behave like hardcore racing gamers.

And since those games don't sell well, that won't happen, so there's no point in even discussing it.
Therefore, people are still debating FM vs. GT. Pretty simple, right?

 

[Chad Esposito]

What is really funny is that this thread has already 59 pages of people very seriously "debating" about two crappy games. Don't take me wrong, I own & enjoy both, if forced to choose, I would stay with Forza, since I love its cars, and hate the idiocy/irrelevance of secondary fluff by Kazunori, just to mention a few dislikes about GT5.

While GT5 has "better" physics, both games suck at that big time. When I played rFactor-GTR2 and others with similar physics a few years ago, then played Live for Speed, then played iRacing, I just felt that GT5 was RUBBISH just like Forza. So, now I just play both games as an easy funny arcady thing with pretty graphics and cars, but just that...

In my opinion, this thread is like putting a bunch of "engineers" debating which car's chassis is more efficient, a Hot Wheels or a Matchbox. :Lol:

Seriously though, this thread is pretty useless, since guys will never reach a consensus, and GT5 must learn not from Forza and vice-versa, both should learn from Live for Speed, and the likes if we want to "debate" like hardcore racing gamers. Not like easily impressionable graphics lovers or little secondary elements like "first hand racing experience, or auto vista".

Come on, this is not IGN's or Gamespot's forum...

 

[alucard0712]

GT must learn from reality, not FM or LFS or something else. It's GT. It has it's own way. IMO.

 

[ItsHim]

Who gives a damn where the experience came from? Kazunori has first-hand experience; who gives a damn? Dan receives third-party input experience; again, who gives a damn? I know I don't

There's the small matter of credibility. At least, this matters to me.

And you can't deny a racing driver would probably make a better racing "sim" (yeah I know, they all play iRacing because they have no sense of fun ) because they would look for other things. Like driving feel first, "game play" content second.

Kaz's experiences seemingly didn't translate to GT5 at all. I would've assumed that, someone who experienced it first hand, would've known that a 24H race is not done by a single person, for example.

Well, but it did. GT5 certainly is not the best racing game out there, because it lacks quite some features in that department. Yes, including 24H race saves.

But, as far as the driving experience goes, it pretty much nails it with what a console has to offer. So Kazunori's experience translates quite well. Maybe you have just been doing the wrong races? Try the GT500 Nürburgring seasonal in a 540 PP capped car on RH. The AI is surprisingly decent and the racing is very intense.

Just one example. I give you those races are a bit hard to spot, but once you got them, the driving is extremely rewarding.

They should just keep Kaz for the 'artistic' advice and get someone to do the management stuff for him... We might end up with the best of both worlds, then.

As it happens, I have another video at hand.

Dan describes Forza's role as a technology bearer for the Xbox. We're talking Kinect and all the other XBL stuff (I'm rather fond of the latter tbh).

So what we're getting with Forza is a mixture of Mario Kart and Joy of Painting? To quote Dan rom memory: Yes, there is racing, but there is so much more! Painting! Opening car doors with Kinect! A joy for the whole family! One button driving (ok, to be fair he said that for Forza 3)Oh, marvelous!



That's what you get if you design games by accountants' standards.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I see people laughing at the standard cars in gt5 but the real funny thing is they drive better than the fm3 cars.

So what we're getting with Forza is a mixture of Mario Kart and Joy of Painting? To quote Dan rom memory: Yes, there is racing, but there is so much more! Painting! Opening car doors with Kinect! A joy for the whole family! One button driving (ok, to be fair he said that for Forza 3)Oh, marvelous!

Did you see the Inside Sim Racing hands on with Forza 4?

 

[Scaff]

Come on, this is not IGN's or Gamespot's forum...

No its not, and to be honest if you have nothing constructive to add (and I certainly do not consider having a backhand swipe at others constructive) then I advise you don't bother posting in this thread.


Scaff

 

[JDMKING13]

Did you see the Inside Sim Racing hands on with Forza 4?

I'm not joking bogie I like fm3 but from a driving standpoint say what you wanna say the standards drive better than the cars on fm3. Im just keeping it real.

 

[Bogie 19th]

"debating" about two crappy games

I own & enjoy both

Now THAT went over my head.

I'm not joking bogie I like fm3 but from a driving standpoint say what you wanna say the standards drive better than the cars on fm3. Im just keeping it real.

I disagree, but it's all good in the hood. What I do agree with that, is that there is ALWAYS room for improvement, so hopefully FM4 does indeed improve upon the physics.

 

[Chad Esposito]

Now THAT went over my head.



I disagree, but it's all good in the hood. What I do agree with that, is that there is ALWAYS room for improvement, so hopefully FM4 does indeed improve upon the physics.

Why is it that a lot of people on these forums dissect words, and phrases bringing stuff out of context? If you read all the post, what I meant, is that both games to me are not good examples of what a great racing game should be like, but I enjoy both as an "arcade" or less stressing racing experience.

Now, let's talk about the brakes in both games. I think that GT5 has awful physics there, ABS is really unrealistic, and non-ABS is a joke, even if you "balance" them. Forza instead has great brakes (for that level of simulation), locking up when you really apply too much pressure, and they sort of give a progressive feeling.

Right?

 

[Spagetti69]

I'm not joking bogie I like fm3 but from a driving standpoint say what you wanna say the standards drive better than the cars on fm3. Im just keeping it real.

What tires are you using in GT?

 

[zr1chris]

Now, let's talk about the brakes in both games. I think that GT5 has awful physics there, ABS is really unrealistic, and non-ABS is a joke, even if you "balance" them. Forza instead has great brakes (for that level of simulation), locking up when you really apply too much pressure, and they sort of give a progressive feeling.

Right?

Thats strange I actually find it to be the complete opposite. Maybe its just the crappy brake pedal on my MS wheel as compared to my DFGT. When I lock the brakes up in Forza there is no recovering. Its like your on ice once you lock them up and the car doesn't slow down at all. In real life you still slow down slowly just not anywhere near as fast as not locking them up. GT5 seems to be more accurate to me in this regard.

 

[Terronium-12]

There's the small matter of credibility. At least, this matters to me.

Credibility is fine, but as alluded to earlier, what good is any credibility when it's put to little or no use at all?

Case in point: soft and super soft compounds having more grip in wet conditions than intermediates or full wets in any mode except arcade. Might be the correct way in multiplayer as well but I can't remember.

And you can't deny a racing driver would probably make a better racing "sim" (yeah I know, they all play iRacing because they have no sense of fun ) because they would look for other things. Like driving feel first, "game play" content second.

If you were to contract a professional race driver -- Mika Hakkinen for example, and you tasked him with the responsibility of providing extensive feedback and analysis of the physics and every relation thereof for your game how involving do you think said game would be?

The problem with Kazunori and PD is they place unnecessary emphasis on things that don't matter nearly as much as everything else. Kaz especially seems to place unnecessary emphasis on perfection which, as evident in GT5, pays absolutely no dividends whatsoever.

 

[Chad Esposito]

Thats strange I actually find it to be the complete opposite. Maybe its just the crappy brake pedal on my MS wheel as compared to my DFGT. When I lock the brakes up in Forza there is no recovering. Its like your on ice once you lock them up and the car doesn't slow down at all. In real life you still slow down slowly just not anywhere near as fast as not locking them up. GT5 seems to be more accurate to me in this regard.

Maybe it's the MS wheel (I use the Fanatec), but for experimental purposes try both games with their respective controllers, you'll see what I mean.

 

[Scaff]

Case in point: soft and super soft compounds having more grip in wet conditions than intermediates or full wets in any mode except arcade. Might be the correct way in multiplayer as well but I can't remember.

That's down to the wet grip setting not being able to be defaulted to 'real', which can be done in most (if not all) places.

Once its set it does resolve that, however not being able to default it is a pain.

Now, let's talk about the brakes in both games. I think that GT5 has awful physics there, ABS is really unrealistic, and non-ABS is a joke, even if you "balance" them. Forza instead has great brakes (for that level of simulation), locking up when you really apply too much pressure, and they sort of give a progressive feeling.

Right?

I would have to disagree with that. FM's brake set-up is snatchy to the point of having almost no progression or recovery.

GT5's without ABS is actually not too bad at all and will punish a poor brake bias set-up; however GT falls over in that brake bias is almost pointless when ABS is on (even as low as 1).

Maybe it's the MS wheel (I use the Fanatec), but for experimental purposes try both games with their respective controllers, you'll see what I mean.

I have and still would disagree.



Scaff

 

[JDMKING13]

What tires are you using in GT?

I try to play as real as possible to give you a quick example S2000 CS ZR1 SH mines gtr SS and any race car RH. The cars in FM stick to the grounds as if they have SM which kills the fun for me the way you can get the R34 to oversteer in GT5 is a good example on why I say the FM cars are way to grippy. It's still a good game though. I love GT but I'm not fanboy FM is looking very good and I'm hoping with the new tire physics the grip levels well seem realistic.