FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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Daverytimes
The only feedback that you don't receive from a proper rig is G-force(and some balls of steel in some cases), every other input (Although not 100%) are an accurate representation of what you would be doing on Race-day. Racing with a wheel and pedal is on a whole different ballpark than say Lebron playing on a pad, if he had a true to life input method (for the game) he would destroy anyone new to the game.
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I have to agree.
I've recently gotten into Autocross.
Now, I've always been fairly confident that I was a good driver. I've done things in a car while being a hooligan in my younger years that still cause my old friends to talk "remember when we did this and you were driving and blah blah blah...".
In the two autocrosses I've been too (hooked now and vow to never miss another) I bring my bone stock Ford Focus. By the end of my first day I was within .2 seconds of my buddy in his Evo X. I keep bringing the slowest car (by a long way) and yet I finish far from last. Now, this may also be because dome people can't drive no matter what they think, but the guys there have started calling me "The Humiliator" because I run my Focus right up there with their modified WRX's and MR 2's.

I don't believe I'd be very good right off the bat without first learning the fundamentals of being fast on my race rig.
No matter what though, I will always suck at basketball. I'm 6'5" and I'm terrible at it. Playing a Basketball video game would never make me better because it's not nearly the same.
 
In Forza, it registers the steering in the car, rather than the controller. The only thing the Analog Stick does is tell when to turn and how much to turn. The wheels will do what the in-game steering wheel does. Unless you have a wheel. That has a little bit to do with the feeling you have traction control on, the wheel only turns like ten degrees. Try it in real life will cause little oversteer, unless you floor it while steering.

GT5 registers what the controller is doing. This is why its harder to control with a DS3. The in-game wheel has no control over the actual wheels, the controller does. These are buffers for the controller. When you plug in the wheel, it acts as if the buffers aren't there.

Though I could be wrong, this is just what I've seen.
 
That GT5 has a more precise damage system is really a joke. A racing simulation is less about optical damage and more about mechanical damage.

It is precise, when a certain part of a car damages or break, when it get hit or receive too much force. In Forza your gearbox, brakes, suspension, aerodynamics, engine and drive can be damaged individually and in different levels. Damage on those parts will show from 1 - 100 % and there is a difference in those levels of damage. Visually there are deep scratches and paint that come off. Spoilers and bumpers can fall off and body parts will be bend. The mechanical damage is results in lower speeds and each part will effect the car differently. Aero makes the top speed slower and takes the grip, then you over- or understeer. A broken gear box slowes your shifting and broken brakes elongate your braking distance. By the way, FM 1 had already a good damage system in 2005.

If GT5 does nearly try to simulate the same, please prove it, because it is not that precise.

About the GT brings up real racers. GT and Forza helping to understand how cars behave and train you the limits of grip and physics. So, who played such games, knows that he/she wont take a 90° corner with 200kmh. These games train your senses and make you familiar with certain tracks and cars. But it doesnt make you a race driver.

Driving in real life and driving in Forza, GT, or IRacing, is more about the jump from NFS Underground to GT or Forza. You have to relearn everything, but you dont start from zero. The feel of a real car and the forces on a "race track" are quite different from a game. Especailly the g-forces while braking or at altitute differences.

From my experiences, really good drivers are "born". There are just people, who never touched a racing game or drove faster than 120 kmh, who are really fast and can handle high powered cars. It is more about consciousness, concentration and endurance. You also need to be a competitive person, if you want to win. I for one lack the last, because i dont have the need for competition, which makes you considerably slower.

So a game, be it really reallistic, is not enough to make you a pro driver in real. Either way you got what it takes or you learn it through real experience.

Forza or GT are the same in this matter and neither of both exceed there.
 
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buggs1a
I'm curious about the physics of Forza 2 and 3 and gt5.

First, what exactly are physics in a car game and what makes it realistic?

Second:
Is it physics when you use a controller and tap left or right to steer?

The reason I ask this is because I hate this about force and love it about gt5. I think Forza sucks how yer driving on an ice road compared to gt5.

Example.
When turning in Forza or tapping left or right the car acts like its on ice. It really sucks. In a turn you barely tap the thumbstick or pad say left or right and when you let go the car keeps sliding like its on ice. I freaking hate this about Forza.

In gt5 when you tap and stop the car steers and doesn't keep sliding or turning when you let go. Much better and more real.
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Do you have actually a driving license already? It depends which tyres you use in both games. If you take Forza's Sports tyres and GT5's race softs then you cant compare it. Funny thing is, that many people complain about too much grip in Forza 3.

Generally, if you drive too fast, turning or "tapping" wont do anything, you get oversteer, understeer or your car get uncontrolable. Speed is the key and finding the grip is substancial in driving.

Take a BMW M3 E92 with Sport tyres in Forza and Sport hard in GT5. For me they have very similar grip.

It seems like you cant control the cars in Forza or you use too good tyres in GT5.
 
t.o.
As far as console racing goes Race Pro is THE benchmark to which all other console racers should be judged. Race Pro is made by the PC Sim makers SIMBIN using the Lizard Engine and based off GTR. Forza's cars seem closer to Race Pro's than GT5's.
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I don't know have you played it with the wheel, but RacePro physics are nothing but attractive portray of "how to make a console racer attractive". Tire and weight-transfer physics are just joke. It is a good and enjoyable racer, but not a real simulation by any mean. Besides, RacePro does not use the same engine as Simbin PC games, because Lizard is not the same as ISI, and ISI is used for their PC games for years now.

There is one single physics benchmark on consoles regarding actual simulation of car movement, weight transfer and tire threshold - Enhusia Professional Racing.

As for the OP, difference is huge even about Forza 2 and Forza 3. Forza 3 has dumbed-down great foundations of overall physics introduced in Forza 2 in order to make game more accessible to casual players and controller players. Forza 3 have dumbed down overall suspension simulation, collision physics and non-ABS braking behavior compared to FM2.

What is crazy is that Forza 3 introduced 900 degree steering (FM2 doesn't have it) but actually limited overall weight/inertia physics. Also, FM3 have horrendous permanent steering assist in form of stability management that can't be turned off.

Forza series have great physics on paper - probably 100% on pair with both GT5/Enthusia - but that physics just can't be experienced nor quantified because it is buried deep under the heavy chescake-layers of catering the casual players. Fortunately, Forza 4 will finally get things back on the place.

However, there is no justice in talk about physics of any driving game controller-wise because it is crazy to debate complexity of the driving feel and inertia-behavior of solid objects on surfaces if you do not use proper driving-wheel.

EDITED: And this what Jabofu said above.

In order to compare, you have to use the same tires and sustain completely from going into racing-slick compound territory in both games. In both FM and GT racing-slick compound is made too grippy, too forgiving and too superior to real-life performance of those type of tires.
 
I like GT's driving Physics a lot TBH. I think PD covered all the bases with the large tire choices and combos.

Putting racing softs onto certain cars can feel like arcade but you have choices to adjust the physics to your preferences via tires.

Not so impressed with the collision physics mind you. Feels off and doesn't portray two huge masses coming together well at all for me.

Airborne or Jumps I feel GT loses something too. Cape ring is a good example. Cars seem to land just perfectly for me. Doesn't show weight distribution. Ie the nose of the car diving in a front engine car.
Hard to explain but they all seem to land like James Bond.

The OP is another person who finds Forza to be too Slippy. Many have stated they feel too much grip. Very subjective topic that one.

Force feedback I have to give to GT as the feel of weight transfer via the wheel feels spot on to me.
I do like however Forza's portrayal of the point of losing grip whilst turning. You can definately feel the steering wheel progressively getting lighter whilst turning at too much speed. You can balance on the edge of grip very nice by feel alone.
Needs more in this area though.

Both can learn from each other but ultimately in a pure driving non contact sort of way I would give that to GT.

We have already got a Forza Vs GT thread though which covers all this and more. It's very friendly and no one shouts at each other. Lol.
 
Kreepnslayer
I have to agree.
I've recently gotten into Autocross.
Now, I've always been fairly confident that I was a good driver. I've done things in a car while being a hooligan in my younger years that still cause my old friends to talk "remember when we did this and you were driving and blah blah blah...".
In the two autocrosses I've been too (hooked now and vow to never miss another) I bring my bone stock Ford Focus. By the end of my first day I was within .2 seconds of my buddy in his Evo X. I keep bringing the slowest car (by a long way) and yet I finish far from last. Now, this may also be because dome people can't drive no matter what they think, but the guys there have started calling me "The Humiliator" because I run my Focus right up there with their modified WRX's and MR 2's.

I don't believe I'd be very good right off the bat without first learning the fundamentals of being fast on my race rig.
No matter what though, I will always suck at basketball. I'm 6'5" and I'm terrible at it. Playing a Basketball video game would never make me better because it's not nearly the same.
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Great story, by the way which game is it that you race on your rig that has gave you your fundamentals?
 
t.o.
Great story, by the way which game is it that you race on your rig that has gave you your fundamentals?
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You also would love this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=64076

I remember some stories like those even with GT4.

It's prooved many times that you can improve your real skills playing games if you use a realistic 1:1 input and put a lot of hours on it. The more accurate the sim is the less you will need to adapt and relearn your movements and reactions in the real car, less trial and error and more confidence. The gforces could be shocking at first but since the movements are the same you only need a period of physical adaptation to become confortable. It's not a barrier that erase all what you have learned in your hours of virtual driving.
 
t.o.
As far as console racing goes Race Pro is THE benchmark to which all other console racers should be judged. Race Pro is made by the PC Sim makers SIMBIN using the Lizard Engine and based off GTR. Forza's cars seem closer to Race Pro's than GT5's.
Click to expand...

I couldn't have said it better myself.
 
t.o.
As far as console racing goes Race Pro is THE benchmark to which all other console racers should be judged. Race Pro is made by the PC Sim makers SIMBIN using the Lizard Engine and based off GTR. Forza's cars seem closer to Race Pro's than GT5's.
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As a whole game, or just physics?

I usually stand by F355 Challenge having been, possibly, the most realistic sim (physics-wise) for the console generation. I haven't played Race Pro, but if it is anything like GTR2's steep-learning curve for quick, consistent laps, then I would have to mark it up there right next to Challenge.
 
McLaren
As a whole game, or just physics?

I usually stand by F355 Challenge having been, possibly, the most realistic sim (physics-wise) for the console generation. I haven't played Race Pro, but if it is anything like GTR2's steep-learning curve for quick, consistent laps, then I would have to mark it up there right next to Challenge.
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Not even close to "whole game" for Race Pro 09. Physics yes. But the game is "no frills", with dated graphics, dated UI, minimal number of cars, somewhat short career, and next to NOBODY online.

But the game just feels right and is indeed tops for physics on console in my experience (though I have not not played F355 Challenge.)
 
I'm curious as to why this needs a separate topic from the GT vs FM discussion we already have?

Its unlikely that it will stay on the subject of physics alone and as such would simply end up being a duplicate of that thread.

Unless I hear a very, very strong argument to counter this, then the two get merged.


Scaff
 
peobryant
I didn't find Race Pro's physics to be all the amazing, to be honest. Now the racing was is a different story, and I wish Forza and GT would have actual racing rules, with flags, disqualifications, QUALIFYING, and whatnot.


Parker
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Arma said it better than i would, Race-pro's physics are a mighty great on paper but the feel is just not there. GT5 get's the feel right without having a very complex system in place.
 
I like fm and gr both very much. I just don't like how slippery fm is compared to gt. I was playing fm2 for a few days before I posted my question. I got so annoyed and hated how fm2 and even 3 feels like I'm on ice compared to gt5. So I posted my question about steering. And is why I asked if this is physics in each game.

I agree worse tires in gt5 makes it a bit more slippery lime fm but even then fm is waaaay different. Tick me off different. When I corner and let off the dpad I don't expect my car to keep sliding and then I have to quickly tap the other dpad button to straighten it out. Gt5 doesn't slide like this as much. It seems way better to me.

I would love to drive with someone and show exactly what I mean. Grrr. Lol.

I like both games. I just can't stand the steering in fm. And its not me because gt doesn't do it. Just mean I drive same and think both games should be same or similar. I know they're not though. I just find adapting to fm steering and Iowa I do it way hard. It seems maybe gt is more forgiving. Seems like gt has way more grip and fm has none at all.

I've tried adjusting steering dead zone but I don't know what in the heck this is and what the settings do and what to set it for.

Better tires in fm do make an improvement to what I'm talking about but barely and almost not noticeable. That's to me, how small of an improvement there is with the better then stock tires I did try.
 
amar212
I don't know have you played it with the wheel, but RacePro physics are nothing but attractive portray of "how to make a console racer attractive". Tire and weight-transfer physics are just joke. It is a good and enjoyable racer, but not a real simulation by any mean. Besides, RacePro does not use the same engine as Simbin PC games, because Lizard is not the same as ISI, and ISI is used for their PC games for years now.
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I wouldn't go by that. I will have to talk to some xentax folks to make certain (and I will) but reptile themed names more confirm the lineage than reject it. Eg. the SMS branch is called "Gecko" and though I can't remember it off the top of my head I'm pretty sure this is actually a continuation of the original ISI theme.

This is kinda like arguing that there is no way OSX Lion has anything to do with Leopard because look, different animals. Yeah.
 
On gtplanet there are mostly guys who can argue reasonable and have respect for the others. But there are also blinded fanboys, that destroy a thread like this or bring crazy false facts.

I want to show you one of them. By the way, it is a good laugh too. :sly:

http://youtu.be/JbedJekIblc

Even for someone who favours GT will see that this guy is really dumb.
 
Oh dear. In one breath saying it's a real-life simulator and in the next saying "who the *expletive* plays a game because it has an interior view?"

Comedy gold.
 
That was the only thing about Forza he got right. We sure don't have an Enzo McLaren. Wonder how it would stack up against the Mercedes 911 or Bentley Aventador?
 
I think he's been playing to much triple screens TBH.

Or at least were glasses when playing 3D.
 
GT5 Sceptic
Oh dear. In one breath saying it's a real-life simulator and in the next saying "who the *expletive* plays a game because it has an interior view?"

Comedy gold.
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Not to justify GT5's standard cars or that guy's clear bias, but since when did anyone need another steering wheel and another pair of hands on-screen? Unless, of course, you're driving without a wheel, but then that would be ridiculous. ;)
 
infamousDee
Not to justify GT5's standard cars or that guy's clear bias, but since when did anyone need another steering wheel and another pair of hands on-screen? Unless, of course, you're driving without a wheel, but then that would be ridiculous. ;)
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Since when did anyone need photorealistic graphics? Or more than a few cars? Or more than a few tracks? Or customization options? Or photomode?
Its not about need mate.
 
jabofu
Even for someone who favours GT will see that this guy is really dumb.
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Hm. Not quite sure how to understand this. Then again I favour GT, so I must be a bit slow anyway, right? ;)
 

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