For those that object to GTS or GT7 having Std Cars, what is your reason?

[SlipZtrEm]

That assumes that it's the Camaro that's wrong. It could be the other way around, or they could all be wrong. Hell, the S2000 could be wrong as well.

I think the big issue is – probably unsurprising, for some – the tire model. We don't know what sorts of tires the Camaro race car is meant to have versus the S2000. PD's never really been clear on that.

Frankly, while I'm on board with the difficulty of creating a PP system that accurately compares very different styles of cars around a variety of tracks, there's a (relatively) easy option available to PD at this point. They should have comparative data out the wazoo from GT5 and GT6. Assuming that their physics system is basically correct, there shouldn't be any major performance changes between games, so they should be able to use the data from past games to identify and patch the biggest offenders in the PP system. It's not going to be perfect, but it should narrow the gaps at least.

Basically, instead of trying to do it computationally, just use the huge amount of raw racing data they have and do it statistically. Or at least combine the two approaches and use statistical data to modify the computational data. Without statistical analysis they'll never know how well their PP system is doing anyway, so they *should* already be doing half the work needed for this.

This just reminded me of something: back in FM4, Turn 10 had a leaderboard that covered a player's total times across every single track. It was a little buggy – since not many people explored every permutation, in every class – but it would arguably provide a clearer picture of where every car lands in comparison to one another.

T10's PI uses a single track. If PD had data for the lap times of every car in the game, on every track, it would give us an idea of how well they perform against one another, overall, in the game. Preferably, using B-Spec or something for consistency (though imagine the possibilities if they used the entire GT6 playerbase, and found averages ). Sure, that's a lot of data, and it would still mean some cars are better than others at certain tracks, but the system can never really account for that anyway. An Elise will always lose out to a comparable PP long-legged car at Route X, and win at something like Autumn Ring Mini.

 

[ANFD]

I was hoping that with all the experience Kaz has with Endurance racing, that GT would evolve away from being an ordinary "Driving Simulator" and become more of a true "Racing" game. From the recent trailers I've seen, it doesn't appear to be so. Everytime I see trailers with full on racing cars pack racing with ordinary street cars I can't help but feel that GT is not the least bit realistic.

 

[Devil240Z]

They need to cut the fat out of GT. I think they need to reboot the entire series with new everything. Hopefully GTS is the start of that.

 

[HuskyGT]

Answering to what @SlipZtrEm wrote:
Of course the casuals won't play 96% of the cars. There are more than enough reasons why people are not motivated , but let's proceed by order:
Is GranTurismo a game revolving around standard cars?
NO. But it is true that Gran Turismo is a game that based its single player on old racing games tropes, it's how everything is so predictable about every single event; 1200+ cars just to see the same 30 cars in every race (seriously there's little to no variety in the single player grids, some of them are just cringey with rally cars competing against touring cars and so on). Now why did i mention the single player events? Because if any producer asked a stupid question such as "hey guys why don't we make a sub 500pp racing car championship?" they'd have realized long ago that they haven't enough assets to make such thing. GT6 is filled with cars, many manufacturers and many categories: why? There's simply no purpose in having an Australian V8 Supercar when you can't race it against anyone. One of the main problems with GT's standards is that there are too much, a solution might be the contextualization of GT's events: no more "clubman" or "tuners" challengers but instead categories based on PP, displacement, doors, weight, year etc etc and more variety.
i.e: take a classic 90's japanese road cars championship format, now add a first championship accessible at the start for starters (so around 400 pp limit), then do it for intermediates (450 pp now) and advanced (500 pp) divide it in even more variations ( asian tracks only, european tracks only, american tracks only, world championship) and if you do a simple calculation you'll find yourself using way more than just 3 cars for these races ( a small keicar for the first, then a mx5 and then a rx-7 for example) add the previous regional differentiation and here you find yourself already 10 hours into the game with only a category ( 90's japanese cars) done ( apply this to: Japanese 70's cars, american muscle, european coupè, modern sportscar...etc etc).

TL;DR
If they were forced to create more events, they'd have been forced to "upgrade" more cars and tracks with only the exception of few vehicles left behind. Even now GT doesn't have a proper LMP1 championship because there are few, if any, car that could compete fairly with another. Hope i made my point as clear as possible.

I like this post very much. Other than the standards, GT lately seems to be gravitating towards the same handful of cars, with really uninspired events. Sure, Sunday and Clubman Cups are a series staple, but it's a shame that that is as far as they will go.

I like your suggestion of events. That would open a universe of variations. If you ever played Forza 3 and 4, its career mode was pretty much like this. I played Forza 4 for over a year and never managed to complete the whole thing. Sure, the tracks were repeated a lot, but I felt I had use for almost every single car in game. And with the option of disabling the Class restrictions (sort of like the PP in GT), it gave you a replay value like no other. I wish GT was like this, and even Forza 6, which has gone away with this career system (although it does have an event creator with prizes, which compensates greatly).

I really don't know what the limitations are. I don't make game. But I imagine it's the actual cars, content, tracks and stuff what really uses up all the game resources; not what car will compete against another car and so on. It almost feels like they just rushed it.

Right now I'm all into Forza 6 and PCars, but I don't discard the possibility to get back to GT in the future. Hopefully GT7 will reignite that spark that titles like GT2 or GT4 had (I don't care for GTSport. Seems like another diversion strategy to hide the fact that they cannot deliver a proper GT). Get back to basics with all the current gen eye candy, much more customization options, livery editor with full online sharing, decent sounds, engine swaps and other things that other car games have. But most importantly: to stop limiting the fun for gamers. Stop it with making things so limited and inaccessible in the game (prizes, car prices, and events).

Oh and: NO STANDARDS.

 

[syntex123]

I really agree with all of what you say. But one thing that I can't stress enough: A livery editor. A one-make race would make so much more sense if we could design our livery and every car is unique and looks different even though it is the same car with the same PP and performance parts, just different setups and liveries. It would be such an amazing thing. Imagine a 1000km endurance at Suzuka in a Mazda MX-5 (I know, it is kinda a bleh car but we all have raced one at some point). Then imagine the sheer amount of liveries created, making the cars actually stand out, looking cool and different to each other. It would make a WRS event more interesting than just seeing a bunch of standard MX-5s with just different rims and colors.

 

[Mike_grpA]

I really agree with all of what you say. But one thing that I can't stress enough: A livery editor. A one-make race would make so much more sense if we could design our livery and every car is unique and looks different even though it is the same car with the same PP and same performance cars, just different setups and liveries. It would be such an amazing thing. Imagine a 1000km endurance at Suzuka in a Mazda MX-5 (I know, it is kinda a bleh car but we all have raced one at some point). Then magine the sheer amount of liveries created, making the cars actually stand out, looking cool and different to each other. It would make a WRS event more interesting than just seeing a bunch of standard MX-5s with just different rims and colors.

Yeah PD really needs to make a Forza rivaling livery editor. I can't justify buying an X1 just for Forza games, which are the only XB exclusives that interest me, and I also don't have an X1 compatible wheel, despite my CSR being an official Forza wheel (ironically only works with PS4 in this gen lol). Despite this, Forza just has so much great stuff that is missing from GT. If T10 started selling Forza games on PS4 too, I'd buy them in a heartbeat. I think Forza is by far the best thing the Xbox has going for it.

 

[prousonhairy]

Yeah PD really needs to make a Forza rivaling livery editor. I can't justify buying an X1 just for Forza games, which are the only XB exclusives that interest me, and I also don't have an X1 compatible wheel, despite my CSR being an official Forza wheel (ironically only works with PS4 in this gen lol). Despite this, Forza just has so much great stuff that is missing from GT. If T10 started selling Forza games on PS4 too, I'd buy them in a heartbeat. I think Forza is by far the best thing the Xbox has going for it.

What you said but the other way around. I wish gran Turismo would sell their games on xb1. I have a PS3 and a 360, but I bought an Xbox one because of Forza 6, I was going to hold off until gt7, but GTS was announced, and I guess I got skeptical. Hopefully when gt7 does come out, it's great enough to make me buy a ps4, because that would mean it's truly something special.

 

[Mike_grpA]

What you said but the other way around. I wish gran Turismo would sell there games on xb1. I have a PS3 and a 360, but I bought an Xbox one because of Forza 6, I was going to hold off until gt7, but GTS was announced, and I guess I got skeptical. Hopefully when gt7 does come out, it's great enough to make me buy a ps4, because that would mean it's truly something special.

In a perfect world console exclusives wouldn't exist. Only fanboys benefit from one console not getting certain games that another one does.

The big winners would be gamers if PS4 and X1 both got GT and FM games.

 

[prousonhairy]

Preach on brother Mike!!! I say Amen to that. 👍

 

[Tornado]

Even now GT doesn't have a proper LMP1 championship because there are few, if any, car that could compete fairly with another.

What I always found particularly amusing about this is that this is true despite PD intentionally giving all but a small handful of "those" cars incorrect performance stats.

 

[Mike_grpA]

The problem with trying to achieve parity in race cars within the same category in GT games is they allow the player to modify the race cars anyway, so you could buy an LMP1, slap on a massive turbo, and dominate the field regardless of how close they were to each other.

I think it's kind of stupid that you can do that. Buying highly strung race cars and slapping on bigger turbos and such. They should allow more in depth set up options like control over wastegates within the range the real car used, but bolting on upgrades to race cars is just silly IMO.

At the very least, the real race series in the game (LMP1,Super GT, etc. etc.) should require the cars be unmodified to enter. In GT6 you could slap a massive turbo on a GT500 car, bumping it up to something like 800hp, and enter the Super GT championship and lap the field in a 3 lap race lol.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The problem with trying to achieve parity in race cars within the same category in GT games is they allow the player to modify the race cars anyway, so you could buy an LMP1, slap on a massive turbo, and dominate the field regardless of how close they were to each other.

I think it's kind of stupid that you can do that. Buying highly strung race cars and slapping on bigger turbos and such. They should allow more in depth set up options like control over wastegates within the range the real car used, but bolting on upgrades to race cars is just silly IMO.

At the very least, the real race series in the game (LMP1,Super GT, etc. etc.) should require the cars be unmodified to enter. In GT6 you could slap a massive turbo on a GT500 car, bumping it up to something like 800hp, and enter the Super GT championship and lap the field in a 3 lap race lol.

You're gonna need it:

 

[Mike_grpA]

You're gonna need it:

Haha, it's true though. We all want more competitive AI for closer races in career, but the AI could be perfect 1:1 with real race drivers and they'd still get dominated because of the ability to enter races with modified race cars.

The PP system doesn't help things much either. I'm all for having more in depth modification of the road cars. But the series that use real race cars should require them be unmodified.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Haha, it's true though. We all want more competitive AI for closer races in career, but the AI could be perfect 1:1 with real race drivers and they'd still get dominated because of the ability to enter races with modified race cars.

The PP system doesn't help things much either. I'm all for having more in depth modification of the road cars. But the series that use real race cars should require them be unmodified.

So long as the stock setup is the real setup I don't see an issue. Anyone that really wants a simulation will choose stock cars and anyone that wouldn't choose stock cars and just turbos the hell out of everything, isn't interested in simulation anyway. I want simulation, but I also realize there are a ton of fans out there that are very casual and just want to press buttons and slap on parts and go fast and in order to sell 10 million copies, you have to appeal to them too.

 

[Mike_grpA]

So long as the stock setup is the real setup I don't see an issue. Anyone that really wants a simulation will choose stock cars and anyone that wouldn't choose stock cars and just turbos the hell out of everything, isn't interested in simulation anyway. I want simulation, but I also realize there are a ton of fans out there that are very casual and just want to press buttons and slap on parts and go fast and in order to sell 10 million copies, you have to appeal to them too.

Oh I'm not talking about forcing stock set ups, that wouldn't be realistic. I just think modifying the car itself is unrealistic and makes the game ridiculously easy. Of course you should be able to set the car up how you like within the real car's parameters.

I know it wouldn't appeal to casuals, but I don't really care about that lol. I know a bunch of people will say "if you want closer races just don't hot up the cars, let us play how we want to blah blah blah", and no doubt that's what I'd do, but I just think it's stupid and unrealistic the way you can modify the race cars in older GT games. On one hand you've got people that want to be able to do unrealistic mods to race engines, and on the other hand they're wanting the career races to be closer.

 

[wedjim]

I think it would make the game more fun if you could do major mods to the cars, besides suspension, tires and turbos.
Things like tube chassis, engine packages, changing weight distribution (without adding ballast), aero mods on more cars, or even being able to put a six speed in a car that never offered one.

For me there are many cars that are fun to race out of the box, but tuning and set up mods are where it's at. Handling, not only power. Getting cars to perform at the highest level within their category. Even if it meant going from 400pp to 550pp.

For example; I would be stoked if I could take a standard Miata and make it into a race car, my way, rather than buying one already done.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I think it would make the game more fun if you could do major mods to the cars, besides suspension, tires and turbos.
Things like tube chassis, engine packages, changing weight distribution (without adding ballast), aero mods on more cars, or even being able to put a six speed in a car that never offered one.

For me there are many cars that are fun to race out of the box, but tuning and set up mods are where it's at. Handling, not only power. Getting cars to perform at the highest level within their category. Even if it meant going from 400pp to 550pp.

For example; I would be stoked if I could take a standard Miata and make it into a race car, my way, rather than buying one already done.

Well that would be brilliant, but you have to consider how it would be implemented. The effort required to make such extreme mods for heaps of vehicles (that you can tailor to your liking) is by no means a small task when you have the more pressing issues of AI, sound and core gameplay to contend with. One thing that could work is being able to change body parts, engines and gearboxes of a base race car which has all the basic suspension tuning done along with a tubular chassis, and the rest is up to you. Sounds realistic enough, right?

 

[syntex123]

I think it would make the game more fun if you could do major mods to the cars, besides suspension, tires and turbos.
Things like tube chassis, engine packages, changing weight distribution (without adding ballast), aero mods on more cars, or even being able to put a six speed in a car that never offered one.

For me there are many cars that are fun to race out of the box, but tuning and set up mods are where it's at. Handling, not only power. Getting cars to perform at the highest level within their category. Even if it meant going from 400pp to 550pp.

For example; I would be stoked if I could take a standard Miata and make it into a race car, my way, rather than buying one already done.

6 speed transmission already available. To most cars anyway.

Being able to add cages to any car. And have it visually installed too, not just "in theory". Same with weight reduction. Visible weight reduction. When you remove seats, seats should be removed.

 

[wedjim]

6 speed transmission already available. To most cars anyway.

Being able to add cages to any car. And have it visually installed too, not just "in theory". Same with weight reduction. Visible weight reduction. When you remove seats, seats should be removed.

Many have a 6 speed available, but there are many that only offer 4 or 5 speeds.

The tinkering and tuning, then seeing an improvement on the track is what I like best. I agree on the visuals matching the changes. Similar to how lowering suspension hieght shows up in the garage.

 

[wedjim]

Well that would be brilliant, but you have to consider how it would be implemented. The effort required to make such extreme mods for heaps of vehicles (that you can tailor to your liking) is by no means a small task when you have the more pressing issues of AI, sound and core gameplay to contend with. One thing that could work is being able to change body parts, engines and gearboxes of a base race car which has all the basic suspension tuning done along with a tubular chassis, and the rest is up to you. Sounds realistic enough, right?

That's true. I hadn't considered how time consuming that might be in virtual since there are as many variables as there are in 3D. Perhaps they could come up with a general chassis that it builds to the wheelbase for a given car for installation.

Just a dream of mine for those of us who can't do it in 3D.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I think it's kind of stupid that you can do that. Buying highly strung race cars and slapping on bigger turbos and such. They should allow more in depth set up options like control over wastegates within the range the real car used, but bolting on upgrades to race cars is just silly IMO.

For Group C cars I always thought the high RPM turbos represent the balls-to-the-walls quali setup. They used to reach over 1000 HP and then the engine would grenade after a few laps. Then for the race they turned down the boost to something reasonable (stock turbo in game).

I agree that boost pressure control would be more realistic though. GT1 had this and it has never been seen since

 

[Tornado]

The problem with that idea is that almost all of the Group C cars already are featured in a state that could be considered as such (though not in practice, because they simply cranked a power multiplier instead of adjusting torque curves), to the extent of sometimes being in states of tune that would be impossible in real life even before you slap a high strung turbo on it.

 

[Mike_grpA]

For Group C cars I always thought the high RPM turbos represent the balls-to-the-walls quali setup. They used to reach over 1000 HP and then the engine would grenade after a few laps. Then for the race they turned down the boost to something reasonable (stock turbo in game).

I agree that boost pressure control would be more realistic though. GT1 had this and it has never been seen since

Yeah you could think of it that way, but the stock power level in GT6 is actually their qualifying power, they were turned down for endurance races. The R89C was capable of 950hp on full boost, but in GT it goes up to around 1100hp iirc with the turbo upgrade. Not to mention, at those power levels, the engine wouldn't last long, and in GT they last forever.

 

[Samus]

The problem with trying to achieve parity in race cars within the same category in GT games is they allow the player to modify the race cars anyway, so you could buy an LMP1, slap on a massive turbo, and dominate the field regardless of how close they were to each other.

I think it's kind of stupid that you can do that. Buying highly strung race cars and slapping on bigger turbos and such. They should allow more in depth set up options like control over wastegates within the range the real car used, but bolting on upgrades to race cars is just silly IMO.

At the very least, the real race series in the game (LMP1,Super GT, etc. etc.) should require the cars be unmodified to enter. In GT6 you could slap a massive turbo on a GT500 car, bumping it up to something like 800hp, and enter the Super GT championship and lap the field in a 3 lap race lol.

With GT Sport and the FIA involvement I'm hoping this is something that is finally fixed. The entry requirements for GT6 events was extremely lax, you could enter pretty much any race car in GT500, GT300 and GT3 events and most of the other general non-real world series were extremely weak in regulation.

I know why they did it, so that people had an easy way to win if they struggled with the real cars but that isn't the way to do it, that should be done with difficulty sliders.

So yeah, I hope GTS is finally the GT game where a career or online race event isn't filled with modern LMPs, old Group C, random GT/Touring cars and fictional race modded cars.

 

[Mike_grpA]

With GT Sport and the FIA involvement I'm hoping this is something that is finally fixed. The entry requirements for GT6 events was extremely lax, you could enter pretty much any race car in GT500, GT300 and GT3 events and most of the other general non-real world series were extremely weak in regulation.

I know why they did it, so that people had an easy way to win if they struggled with the real cars but that isn't the way to do it, that should be done with difficulty sliders.

So yeah, I hope GTS is finally the GT game where a career or online race event isn't filled with modern LMPs, old Group C, random GT/Touring cars and fictional race modded cars.

Yeah I agree, hopefully the FIA's love of over regulating things can do some good for once and lead to better, more realistic regulations in GTS lol.

 

[Quakebass]

The problem with trying to achieve parity in race cars within the same category in GT games is they allow the player to modify the race cars anyway, so you could buy an LMP1, slap on a massive turbo, and dominate the field regardless of how close they were to each other.

I think it's kind of stupid that you can do that. Buying highly strung race cars and slapping on bigger turbos and such. They should allow more in depth set up options like control over wastegates within the range the real car used, but bolting on upgrades to race cars is just silly IMO.

At the very least, the real race series in the game (LMP1,Super GT, etc. etc.) should require the cars be unmodified to enter. In GT6 you could slap a massive turbo on a GT500 car, bumping it up to something like 800hp, and enter the Super GT championship and lap the field in a 3 lap race lol.

The tragic irony is that PD has been perfectly capable of doing just that. Just off the top of my head I know GT6 has races that restict NOS, and some that require cars to be entirely stock. If they have the ability to put in NOS restrictions, it'd seem like they'd be able to restrict any other parts. They might not be able to restrict every specific thing, but it seems like they could; be it the general part categories (power, tires, weight, suspension etc.), specific categories (turbos, exhaust, brakes, differential, etc.), and individual parts (fully adjustable trains/susp., racing exhaust, weight reduction/engine stages, etc.), I don't see why PD wouldn't be able to make any and every part restrictable within their own creation environment.

It'd make sense that they could even restrict the specific values of certain adjustable components, like the power limiter is in the NASCAR event. It'd be cool if it could be put it on aero settings, or even extended it to a point where they could allow adjustable parts (suspension, trans, etc.) to be installed but left at default settings, or within a certain setting threshold.

Either way, since around the GT5 era, PD has seemed focused on creating a crap-ton of assets to advertise with, and then forgets to give the player tools to do much with them. That's one of the biggest upgrades outside AI improvements I hope to see PD make in GT Sport.

 

[Imari]

The effort required to make such extreme mods for heaps of vehicles (that you can tailor to your liking) is by no means a small task when you have the more pressing issues of AI, sound and core gameplay to contend with.

These things don't necessarily overlap though. The sound and AI team are not the one that are going to be working on modelling mods and figuring out how they should alter the car's physics.

 

[Turbo]

I'm absolutely fine with semi-premiums in GTSport, but cars like the Suzuki Alto and the Hommell Berlinette either be at least semi-premiumized. The way they look now is absolutely unacceptable. The Alto hasn't been touched at all since GT3, a game that released fourteen years ago.

These cars will be disgraceful to GTSport

 

[Johnnypenso]

These things don't necessarily overlap though. The sound and AI team are not the one that are going to be working on modelling mods and figuring out how they should alter the car's physics.

True, but modelling 500-1200 interiors to accomodate a full racing upgrade will take resources away from modeling newer cars, assuming no increase in budget of course. I wish I had saved it, but I was reading something about modding in AC and it indicated that there were as many polys used on the inside of the car as on the outside, in a fully detailed interior. So adding race ready interiors to that many cars would be a Herculean task for what is, IMO, a very debatable bang for the buck, especially since we know that the vast, vast majority of players never get beyond using 100 cars and most not beyond 50. IMO again, it's not an effective use of resources.

 

[Imari]

True, but modelling 500-1200 interiors to accomodate a full racing upgrade will take resources away from modeling newer cars, assuming no increase in budget of course. I wish I had saved it, but I was reading something about modding in AC and it indicated that there were as many polys used on the inside of the car as on the outside, in a fully detailed interior.

Yeah, it's about the same in most games. Probably because that makes tuning the graphics settings easier, roughly the same amount of polys will be on screen whether using external or internal views.

So adding race ready interiors to that many cars would be a Herculean task for what is, IMO, a very debatable bang for the buck, especially since we know that the vast, vast majority of players never get beyond using 100 cars and most not beyond 50. IMO again, it's not an effective use of resources.

Oh, certainly. I was simply making the point that the things mentioned in that post weren't going to be the ones compromised. Tradeoffs would totally have to be made on the modelling side.

I doubt it's really that massive of a job, you can get away with a lot by using the FM/Shift system of banging some piping around the windshield, a Motec on the dash and a race steering wheel. Those can be premodelled parts that get copy/pasted into each car, so I think it could be done efficiently if they wanted. But there's still the problem of the huge backlog to deal with, even something that wouldn't add that much work if done at the time the car was being modelled can be a massive job if you have to go back and do 400+ all at the same time. Say it somehow takes them a week to mod each interior, that's still 8 man years to do ~400 cars.

Which is why continuing to use models from decades ago when such things weren't important is such an issue. The modellers in GT3 and GT4 can't reasonably be expected to anticipate what the modelling requirements will be in twenty years, and asking people now to go back and fix all that stuff up is way too much work to be viable.

I think there are real benefits to not letting a car list get out of control, which is probably why few games allow their lists to top 200.