For those that object to GTS or GT7 having Std Cars, what is your reason?

[TS050]

Lose the Kei cars!

God, no.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

The "only on close inspection" argument sort of falls flat in the face of the terrible black cut-out interior view...

Having standards is also taking away from the graphics which ends up causing squares around the sun, reflections of the sun or even the cars' headlights.

Having scenery "pop-up" out of nowhere or disappear really screws up photos too, as does a vehicle's wheels burying themselves into the road, wheels popping through fenders or, scarier still, cars merging in to each other or "solid" walls!

To be fair, all of those issues have nothing to do with cars being Standard versus Premium.

Take it back to a maximum of 700 cars!

Don't take it back to any arbitrary number. The number shouldn't be a focus, the quality should be.

Lose the Kei cars! (Seriously - who DREAMS of driving one??)

But actually, plenty of us do. The Cappy is one of my absolute favourite drives in GT6. Conservation of speed is its own type of fun, and if you can't be fast in 60hp, then you probably can't be in 600hp either.

I always find it interesting when someone calls for the removal of an entire class of car, only to then demand another:

Spend time on graphics and sound! Most of all, start showing some respect for other international manufacturers! (Australia's Holden, Ford and Chrysler branches made some of the best looking, best handling and fastest muscle cars in the world! Even Turn 10 have been releasing some iconic Australian muscle into Forza over the past couple of months...)

 

[RodolphoPNeto]

I'm sitting here playing pCars and it started raining in the middle of a lap on Le Mans while i was already out of most of the grip. Went over a puddle, felt zero traction, lost control on the straight, and crashed. The car lost almost the entire front, a wing, and cracked the right window.

I immediately remembered this poll.

I believe all of us would like to have this level of immersion on the next GT games. How would that work if they used standards? Even the premium cars don't offer that, so their choices are 1) work with the current models and ignore damage, which would mean a lot of work and money spent to be below the rest, putting one of the most iconic racing games ever far behind the competition and 2) start from scratch and catch up, offering something huge and ahead of the other sims.

Even though a lot of players don't mind it at all, imagine you are in charge of the project, or have a lot of money to make out this business... put your own preference aside and consider the product and the market today - would you really look at this thinking "i don't mind, i use the bonnet cam..."

Imo, this is actually a major decision they have and not just a cosmetic, irrelevant feature.

 

[cutmeamango]

I'm sitting here playing pCars and it started raining in the middle of a lap on Le Mans while i was already out of most of the grip. Went over a puddle, felt zero traction, lost control on the straight, and crashed. The car lost almost the entire front, a wing, and cracked the right window.

Did the game session end there?

 

[RodolphoPNeto]

Did the game session end there?

Oh yeah, i was outtta there. I'll be honest though, i restarted, it was an invitational 24h du Mans not just any race

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I used to be a big proponent of standard cars (I quite like a lot of them), but lately I'm starting to think PD should just drop them. As painful as it is to lose some of these cars (NSX-R LM Road Car ), the longer PD holds on to them the harder it will be to get rid of them in the future. That's just the hoarding mentality.

Ideally, every standard should be converted to premium (except duplicates). But how many of the new premiums between GT5 and 6 are conversions? Probably less than 10. With PD's slow development rate, I'd rather see priority on new cars, and only the most important old ones converted (still waiting for premium Supra).

I enjoyed GT5 and 6, but for me the overall quality of the game seems off. GT5P as a whole feels more cohesive and modern, even though it's older than those 2 titles. I think standard cars are partly to blame. I don't use interior view, and I don't feel the difference is noticeable enough on track unless you zoom in photomode, but just knowing that you are passing a "standard" car on track kinda ruins the whole experience of the game. Even if they look pretty good on the outside, you know it's just a one piece shell with textures on top (vs premium where every part is 3D modeled). It's weird. I don't think there's any other racing game with a 2 tier car quality like GT5/6.

Unfortunately, PD has always prided themselves on car count, so I don't see Kaz removing them anytime soon. It's gonna be really awkward to see PS2 era cars alongside Driveclub levels of detail for sure :/

P.S. I'd also love for PD to take a look back at GT2's car list, which I think has the best car list out of all GTs to date. Espace F1, Ford GT90, Venturi, Vector, Esprit GT1, etc...

 

[Stephan]

To me PD should just do the GT3 formula where they dropped all PS1 era cars and added in the new ones or repackaged ones from GT1/2.

Though I'm not bothered with standard cars on the grid but they still look awful when you get close to them.

 

[FoRiZon]

To me PD should just do the GT3 formula where they dropped all PS1 era cars and added in the new ones or repackaged ones from GT1/2.

Though I'm not bothered with standard cars on the grid but they still look awful when you get close to them.

That was Forza 5 did. Instead of relying on the Forza 4 models, they made the entire car lists from stratch.

Now if PD were did it for the GT5, no premium means higher goal for PD to approach and in return, a higher quality cars overall. Instead of having a standards where they can be more lenient at car modelling and thinking "this car still exists in the game even though its standards, why bother remodelling".

Well there are numerous like Alpine A110, Bentley Speed 8, etc. But i think those still arent much.

 

[CSLACR]

I used to be a big proponent of standard cars (I quite like a lot of them), but lately I'm starting to think PD should just drop them. As painful as it is to lose some of these cars (NSX-R LM Road Car ), the longer PD holds on to them the harder it will be to get rid of them in the future. That's just the hoarding mentality.

Ideally, every standard should be converted to premium (except duplicates). But how many of the new premiums between GT5 and 6 are conversions? Probably less than 10. With PD's slow development rate, I'd rather see priority on new cars, and only the most important old ones converted (still waiting for premium Supra).

I enjoyed GT5 and 6, but for me the overall quality of the game seems off. GT5P as a whole feels more cohesive and modern, even though it's older than those 2 titles. I think standard cars are partly to blame. I don't use interior view, and I don't feel the difference is noticeable enough on track unless you zoom in photomode, but just knowing that you are passing a "standard" car on track kinda ruins the whole experience of the game. Even if they look pretty good on the outside, you know it's just a one piece shell with textures on top (vs premium where every part is 3D modeled). It's weird. I don't think there's any other racing game with a 2 tier car quality like GT5/6.

Unfortunately, PD has always prided themselves on car count, so I don't see Kaz removing them anytime soon. It's gonna be really awkward to see PS2 era cars alongside Driveclub levels of detail for sure :/

P.S. I'd also love for PD to take a look back at GT2's car list, which I think has the best car list out of all GTs to date. Espace F1, Ford GT90, Venturi, Vector, Esprit GT1, etc...

It's not fair that I can't like this post more than one time.

The only part I can't type in for myself is being in favor of standards, I always loved GT's meticulous craftsmanship more than anything, so I was never in favor of standards. (I would have missed the CSL, but I would have survived)
Just knowing they are sub-par ruins immersion and realism.

They will be a mockery of everything Gran Turismo ever was if they have standards on the PS4.

 

[FS7]

I have played two car games on PS4 and their cars are all "premium"! Sure, there aren't as many cars as GT6 (or other past iterations) but the rest of the graphics are a lot better.

Numbers are relative.
If SMS were to do like PD and count multiple liveries of the same car as different cars PCars would probably have 1000+ too. Fortunately SMS didn't do that bs and have consistent quality in their car models.

 

[DGXR]

Here's my #1 beef with standard cars:
PD is not on the edge of financial ruin. They can afford to hire/pay for the re-modeling of at least some, if not all, of the standard cars.
Here is the story that PD sold to each of us:
Every car included in every Gran Turismo game is selected because of its "significance" in the history and development of automotive engineering, design and innovation. So PD claims to be enthusiastic about cars, but apparently the standard cars are not "significant" enough for PD to pay for their re-modeling, and to keep up with the PlayStation console graphical capabilities. This is very sad.
Other gripes include: not being able to view standard cars in the gallery portion of the garage; and the overall blocky/choppy appearance of the standard cars. This is the year 2016. PD, I ask that you please act like you care more about the games you are making and less about the profits in your pockets. You are not starving or even suffering. Re-model the standard cars!

 

[Imari]

Here's my #1 beef with standard cars:
PD is not on the edge of financial ruin. They can afford to hire/pay for the re-modeling of at least some, if not all, of the standard cars.

They can afford some. They almost certainly wouldn't pay for all of them, as I outlined in one of my earlier posts. It just costs too much, it's too large a proportion of any reasonable estimate of their budget.

It's unfortunate, but true. There's no way all of the standards will be made into premiums. The best you can hope for is a selection.

I find it slightly odd that the "just make them all premium" response still comes up from time to time in these threads.

It's not an option, and I'll explain why.

Polyphony have been pretty clear that it takes them 6 man-months to model a car. That's roughly the same as what it takes other devs, from what I know. With 796 standard cars, that's 398 man-years to model. To do all those inside a three year development cycle they would have to hire another 132 modellers, basically doubling the size of the studio.

Now, we know that Polyphony likes it's artisanal approach and so probably hires people with skills way above baseline, and probably pays them equivalently highly. But lets assume that they get a bunch of schmoes for this and pay them $40,000 a year to bang out standards to premiums. It's then going to cost them $16,000,000 to make all the standards premium. Plus all the extra costs of having another 132 employees, and equipment and office space for them, and so on. Probably you're looking at more like $20,000,000 or more all up.

It starts to become obvious why they haven't done it, and why they almost certainly never will. That's a sizable proportion of the total budget of the game, and that's on top of all the other costs that need to be met as well.

The best we'll ever get is a selection of standards made into premiums. There's just too many standards and it's too expensive to make premiums for it to work any other way.

 

[DGXR]

Polyphony have been pretty clear that it takes them 6 man-months to model a car.

Nonsense. That is another story PD has sold to us all. Maybe 2 months... 3 at most. For a single car?! One talented designer, using modern development software and hardware, working 8 hours every weekday? 2 months is plenty of time.

Even if not every detail is just perfect in the remodels, which the premium cars are not perfect anyway... if they cut a bit of the time and costs for remodeling, to throw us a small bone... this would at least be a gesture that they care. Sorry, I am not buying it. Using 10 year old models is just lazy.

Just imagine the frenzy if PD took 10 popular standard cars and remodeled to near-premium quality! How much would that cost PD to do 10 cars? How impressed would most of us be? Again this would at least be a gesture that they care... and PD says NOPE. Sure, some will complain that their favorite standard was not remodeled, but my point is that we could no longer complain that PD is doing nothing about the blocky, aging standards. LOTS of people are complaining about this. PD needs to show they are listening to the people who put food in their mouths... we the fans, the long-time returning customers who always buy their latest product.

Besides, what is the point of having gorgeous tracks, super cool features and options, if 796 cars are getting hard to look at? Is Gran Turismo not all about the cars? I know it was in the past, but apparently it is not anymore.

I bought a PS3 because of GT5 and GT6. There is a reason I have no plans to buy a PS4.

 

[FoRiZon]

Actually its not "one talented designer". Multiples of them working. But if im honest, i expect more on PD with years of experience.

Driveclub has more new car models than PD with timeframe, for instance.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Nonsense. That is another story PD has sold to us all. Maybe 2 months... 3 at most. For a single car?! One talented designer, using modern development software and hardware, working 8 hours every weekday? 2 months is plenty of time.

SMS spend 100-150 man-days per car, depending on the quality of the source data. I think PD is not far off with 6 months if they also model all of the stuff you only see in photo mode (which SMS doesn't).

 

[Imari]

Nonsense. That is another story PD has sold to us all. Maybe 2 months... 3 at most. For a single car?! One talented designer, using modern development software and hardware, working 8 hours every weekday? 2 months is plenty of time.

You can think what you like. That's what they say, and that's not terribly far off what other devs are quoting.

 

[TRGTspecialist]

Just imagine the frenzy if PD took 10 popular standard cars and remodeled to near-premium quality!

But they did do this for GT6 - a good number of GT5 standard cars were remade into premiums, no? (Anyone know the exact figure of cars converted to premium, out of interest?)

Actually its not "one talented designer". Multiples of them working.

Indeed there's multiple people, although for any single car I think it is just one person modelling - I'm sure I remember an interview that said it was a PD philosophy to have only one person model a single car, thus each car is a creation of that person.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

But they did do this for GT6 - a good number of GT5 standard cars were remade into premiums, no? (Anyone know the exact figure of cars converted to premium, out of interest?)

According to this (sorted by GT6, then GT5), 11:

• 2003 Bentley Speed 8
• 2009 Bugatti Veyron 16.4
• 1963 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe
• 1994 Cizeta V16T
• 2005 Ford GT*
• 1974 Lamborghini Countach LP400
• 1988 Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary
• 1973 Lancia Stratos
• 2000 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI GSR T.M. Edition*
• 2000 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI RS T.M. Edition*
• 1967 Toyota 2000GT

* - Would've been based on existing Premium models.

So really, 8. I suppose you could add the XJR-9, as it was done post-release for GT5's DLC.

 

[AleksandarSRB]

Indeed there's multiple people, although for any single car I think it is just one person modelling - I'm sure I remember an interview that said it was a PD philosophy to have only one person model a single car, thus each car is a creation of that person.

Yes you are correct that is PD philosophy.

 

[DGXR]

Actually its not "one talented designer". Multiples of them working. But if im honest, i expect more on PD with years of experience.

Indeed there's multiple people, although for any single car I think it is just one person modelling - I'm sure I remember an interview that said it was a PD philosophy to have only one person model a single car, thus each car is a creation of that person.

I didn't mean to imply that I believe there's only one talented designer who creates all the premium cars. Indeed that would be a crazy belief. This is what I said: "For a single car?! One talented designer, using modern development software and hardware, working 8 hours every weekday?" In other words: one car, one designer. So I was following along with Imari's specific language of "6 man-months" to model a premium car.

According to this (sorted by GT6, then GT5), 11:

• 2003 Bentley Speed 8
• 2009 Bugatti Veyron 16.4
• 1963 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe
• 1994 Cizeta V16T
• 2005 Ford GT*
• 1974 Lamborghini Countach LP400
• 1988 Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary
• 1973 Lancia Stratos
• 2000 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI GSR T.M. Edition*
• 2000 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI RS T.M. Edition*
• 1967 Toyota 2000GT

* - Would've been based on existing Premium models.

So really, 8. I suppose you could add the XJR-9, as it was done post-release for GT5's DLC.

I did not know that any of the standard cars from GT3/GT4 had ever been recreated as premium cars. I thought they had all been ported over to the PS3 hardware... with maybe a few minor improvements done in the porting process. My mistake.

 

[Stephan]

According to this (sorted by GT6, then GT5), 11:

• 2003 Bentley Speed 8
• 2009 Bugatti Veyron 16.4
• 1963 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe
• 1994 Cizeta V16T
• 2005 Ford GT*
• 1974 Lamborghini Countach LP400
• 1988 Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary
• 1973 Lancia Stratos
• 2000 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI GSR T.M. Edition*
• 2000 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI RS T.M. Edition*
• 1967 Toyota 2000GT

* - Would've been based on existing Premium models.

So really, 8. I suppose you could add the XJR-9, as it was done post-release for GT5's DLC.

You forgot to add the Sauber Merc, Lotus Europa S2 and Special, Alpine A110 and Plymouth Cuda to the list. So that's 12 standard to premium cars. Still not enough though. (Unless the Alpine and Plymouth is counted as new cars since they have different years and version compared to their standard counterparts so that's 10.)

 

[Tornado]

The Alpine A110 and Barracuda aren't the same cars as the Standard models. The Barracuda especially.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

You forgot to add the Sauber Merc, Lotus Europa S2 and Special, Alpine A110 and Plymouth Cuda to the list. So that's 12 standard to premium cars. Still not enough though. (Unless the Alpine and Plymouth is counted as new cars since they have different years and version compared to their standard counterparts so that's 10.)

Ah, seems I hadn't marked the Sauber down as Premium in GT6. Fixed that, thanks.

The Europa is a different model year than the one in GT5 (though I'm not familiar enough with the two to know what, if any, differences that would entail), but as @Tornado mentioned, the A110 and the Cuda are different than their Standard counterparts.

 

[Stephan]

Ah, seems I hadn't marked the Sauber down as Premium in GT6. Fixed that, thanks.

The Europa is a different model year than the one in GT5 (though I'm not familiar enough with the two to know what, if any, differences that would entail), but as @Tornado mentioned, the A110 and the Cuda are different than their Standard counterparts.

Yeah. It's kinda confusing if the Europas, A110 and the Cuda are either new cars or standard to premium converted cars but thanks for pointing that out @Tornado and @SlipZtrEm .

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Yeah. It's kinda confusing if the Europas, A110 and the Cuda are either new cars or standard to premium converted cars but thanks for pointing that out @Tornado and @SlipZtrEm .

For the sake of the discussion, I'd probably agree about the A110 and Europas working as suitable stand-ins for their Standard counterparts. The Cuda, however, is a massively different car from the '71 model, so I wouldn't in that case.

 

[Samus]

They're all new anyway, they don't actually "convert" the old models for obvious reasons, they start entirely from scratch like any other car.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

They're all new anyway, they don't actually "convert" the old models for obvious reasons, they start entirely from scratch like any other car.

Yes, and that!

I posted the list to illustrate which Standards had been dropped. By extension, I wouldn't miss the very-similar Standard versions of the A110 or Europa, given the Premiums cover the model for all but the most dedicated anoraks.

As it's relevant to this thread, I figured I'd highlight another good reason to ditch Standards, especially those with a similar Premium already available:

Here's side by side of 69 camaros

Yep. The cars are two different sizes.

 

[Stephan]

For the sake of the discussion, I'd probably agree about the A110 and Europas working as suitable stand-ins for their Standard counterparts. The Cuda, however, is a massively different car from the '71 model, so I wouldn't in that case.

I thought at first when I saw the AAR Barracuda as a new car, I thought "well they've converted the Cuda into a premium and gave it a new name." Why new name? Because there are some cars in the game had been either converted into semi premium/premium or not converted that were given new model names.

 

[Akwaaba]

Voted other
Not offended having 10 year old coding in a new release, it doesn't matter when code was written. It is the immersive experience of the game that matters. It is only as good as the lowest quality features that matters to the individual player.

Thought about this when getting the prize cars in the current seasonal. The Delta and Subaru looked terrible.
When you win a prize car, you want to go wow, that looks cool - and to look forward racing it.

Still play GT6 from time to time, and dislike the constant reminders that some elements are of a low quality - both in sound and visuals.

Love some of the standard cars, would like them to feel like they fit into the current generation though.

 

[gtracedriver1]

Close inspection is not required for most models. Unless you race in third person camera you get close enough to other cars to easily see their flaws, not to mention being able to see your own model easily. Though even in 3rd person you can still notice them.

When you get even vaguely close to cars like that you easily notice when a car isn't detailed like that Golf.

In screenshot and especially closeup it is easier to tell.

But during gameplay and even on replay it is not as bad as people make it out. For example this Toyota is standard and many others as well in this video:


People who play in cockpit view have the problem so that is the main problem IMHO

The polycount and number of cars, these factors should not be considered this time