Formation of an Exploratory Comittee On the Establishment of New Vehicle Research

[land sea air]

Not to say you should buy it but here are my numbers for my 300E. 0-60 less than 8 seconds. 25 mpg (premium fuel though) tight handling if all the bushings and links are in order.

 

[1X83Z]

..

 

[Jim Prower]

...I've even considered asking a friend of mine to think about picking me up an old 9C1 (Caprice), or a B16 (Camaro). He collects and trades old police vehicles, so he may be able to hook me up. We'll see. I've got a while to shop.

The good news with a 9C1 is that they were built to last. The bad news? they were abused to high hell. Believe me, these things run for eight hours a day, straight, and, depending on the department, may have been regularly run to extralegal speeds on any sort of a call. (our local department is a bunch of leadfoots.)

Also, be aware that not every Police Caprice has the LT1. I work at a local community college, and our department car is a very rusty old Caprice that probably has nothing more than the 5.0L V8. Also, the Caprice was never available with a manual transmission, at least, I don't think it was. I suppose you could try and do a swap.

 

[Duke]

Not everyone wants to pay more than they should for a badge, either.

And, frankly, with the E90 appearing in bigger numbers, the bottom has dropped out of the E46 market.

They're asking mid-$12s for the car I linked, and since it's January, it could probably be bought for $10k next weekend. So I'll ignore your badge comment as the knee-jerk reaction it is. Badge or no, some people are willing to pay for things you'll never understand (or want to understand).

 

[skip0110]

Get a SHO.

 

[turboash78]

For some good old (but not too old) American Muscle, try a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP (1998-2003)... bulletproof 3.8 V6 @ 240hp with 280 ft/lbs of twist , supercharger whine , sedan or coupe, and cheap cheap cheap... drawbacks are possible quality issues and you have to buy premium fuel.

Other favourites:
- Mazda6 GT V6
- Subaru Impreza WRX
- Altima 3.5 SE
- Honda Prelude
- Dodge SRT-4 (a little ricey, I know...)

 

[YSSMAN]

An Impreza wouldn't be a bad car, however I'm impartial to the old 2.5 RS coupes from a few years back. I looked at one a while ago and I really liked it, but the guy wanted waaaaay too much money for a car that just had a few of the Momo option boxes checked...

...As for the Neon, I'd want an old-school R/T or ACR. I don't need all the turbo stuff. A neighbor of mine has one, and when he rips through the neighborhood at 3AM, it is just a little annoying...

 

[1X83Z]

...

 

[Duke]

Here's a 5-year-old car for $1500 less with 23,000 less miles and so much more horsepower. I know it hasn't got a premium badge, so you'll be hard pressed to like it, but it's still a great car.

You're talking to a man who drove an 11-year-old Neon until 10 months ago, so feel free to stow your "premium badge snob" crap back where it came from.

Nothing wrong with Maximas - I looked at them when we bought my wife's car a couple years ago.

Here's one for the same price with around 40,000 less miles. It's two years newer, loads quicker, and it handles similarly. No manual transmission, but it's got a navigation system, meaning it has every option - loads more than that BMW.

I suppose you missed the part where he specifically said he didn't want a complex, loaded car... but that aside, if you think that Acura handles similarly to a 3-series, PLEASE show up at my next autocross.

Whenever someone tells a BMW owner his car is a horrible value, they just play the unbelievably subjective "fun to drive" card. Thank God Infiniti and Acura are coming in and showing BMW owners just how horrible of a value their cars really are.

And whenever someone suggests a BMW, you just play the unbelievably subjective "it doesn't fit Doug's arbitrary criteria on paper so it must suck" card. So? Don't buy one. Duh. Doesn't make it a sin for someone else to consider it (except in your mind).

And in addition to forgetting that I drove a Neon for 11 years, you're also forgetting I have a TSX parked right to my 3, and I drive it every week. I love it! It's as close to a 3 as you're ever going to get in a FWD vehicle. Albeit new (and with nav), it was also $5000 more than I paid for my 23,000-mile 3er, even at lefotver-clearance prices. Used prices were straddling what I paid for my 3, depending on if it had nav or not. I wanted a RWD car, which is the only thing that stopped me buying a second TSX.

Now is your cue to tell me that I'm not a good enough driver to use the alleged benefit of RWD, and particularly not on the street. You can also tell me how much it's going to suck in winter.

I drove half a dozen G35s before buying the BMW. The G35 looks OK outside. The interior was dull at best; the ergonomics were mediocre. The handling was ponderous. The power was not enthralling enough to make up for the heavy handling. Pricing was exactly the same for used G35s as it was for the 3s I was looking at, and the features were no better. What amazing value am I missing here? I'm not seeing it.

And don't get me started on the IS300. Why would I pay more for a wannabe than for the real thing?

 

[1X83Z]

...

 

[Duke]

This is another quality I love about 3-series owners: they absolutely dog the vehicle's competition, while unbiased sources like car magazines tout the very attributes BMW owners claim they dislike. The truth of the matter is, that blue and white circle on the front of the car is worth so much more than the car it's sitting on...

You just refuse to get it, don't you? Way to totally ignore the bulk of my post and pick out the one line you think you have a snappy answer for.

Again: You're telling the man who flew from Philadelphia to Atlanta to buy a 4-year-old Neon, and then drove said Neon for 7 more years by choice that he's a badge snob?! Puhhh-lease. That's pathetic even by your standards.

I drove G35s several times LOOOOOONG before the possibility of buying a BMW even occurred to me! Before I'd even sat in a BMW! The same with an IS300. In fact I drove several examples of both cars before saying to myself "every sporty sedan in the world wants to be a BMW 3, so why don't I start looking at those?".

Driving the BMW didn't change my opinion of the G35 and IS300. It confirmed my opinion. Now, can you get off your high horse and admit that what is right for Doug DeMuro may NOT be a Universal Truth that only fools fail to heed?

Sheesh. Some people's children.

 

[land sea air]

Why would he want a 300E when he can easily afford a 400E and damn near afford a 500E?

he said he wants fuel economy which neither of those can provide, in fact both were stuck with a gas guzzler tax when new, it doesn't help that all three cars require premium. Maintenance and insurance are 2 other things he would have to deal with higher premiums for, my friend compared a reasonably priced e420 and e320 (he owns the latter) with his current insurance and it was almost 40% higher to own the v8 that was 1 year older and had dual instead of just drivers side airbags. On a final note every 500E I've ever seen for under 15k$ was either owned by someone who probably abused it (ie unusually high mileage or no history), or had something major wrong with it. The one 500E I had the pleasure of driving was listed at 25,000 for a '92 with over 150k on the odo. I love both cars probably more than i like my own but i just don't think they fit his criteria

M5 have you ever driven a 3 series? have you ever personally known someone up close who owns a 3 series? why is this turning into a badge argument when we are trying to help our friend YSS find a nice fun car??

 

[Duke]

I love both cars probably more than i like my own but i just don't think they fit his criteria

Understand: there are no criteria but Doug's. Everything else is just a mistake someone's making.

 

[///M-Spec]

Again: You're telling the man who flew from Philadelphia to Atlanta to buy a 4-year-old Neon, and then drove said Neon for 7 more years by choice that he's a badge snob?! Puhhh-lease. That's pathetic even by your standards.

You want irony? Here's a kid taking cheap shots about you (and me as well) being a badge snob when he's spent several years on this forum pretending to own several Porsches, BMWs and Benzs. So he doesn't even have the decency to be truthful with his hypocrisy.


M

 

[land sea air]

^^ ouch!!^^

 

[TopHat]

What about the Lincoln LS? A late model Saab 9-3 could be good too. Or maybe a Volvo S60 or S40...

 

[skip0110]

An Impreza wouldn't be a bad car, however I'm impartial to the old 2.5 RS coupes from a few years back. I looked at one a while ago and I really liked it, but the guy wanted waaaaay too much money for a car that just had a few of the Momo option boxes checked...

An Impreza is not going to get you nearly 27 mpg.

My '02 non-turbo 5 speed gives 21-22 mpg when I drive like I usually do, up to 23 when a baby it. I keep track of every tank. My dad's '06 non-turbo automatic does 18-19 mpg.

 

[TopHat]

Those are some nast numbers there.
EPA is full of it.

 

[Duke]

Those are some nast numbers there.
EPA is full of it.

Yeah, EPA numbers can sorta be used to compare various cars relative to each other, but mean nothing in absolute terms.

 

[1X83Z]

..

 

[///M-Spec]

Let me guess. 3-series owner?

Uhhhh.. Let me guess. Someone who once claimed to own an M3?

Yes, I think that was you.

An M5? Yep.

A 740i? That too.

A CLK55? Uh-huh.

A Cayenne, possibly the biggest wannabe badge whore posuer-mobile ever made? Yes, I think you claimed to own one. A turbo, right?

Oh wait. Your 'wife' drove it, so that doesn't count.

So on one hand you aspire to be a badge whore and will carry on a multi-year charade to make people THINK you do own these expensive cars, no doubt because you think strangers on the internet will think you're cool.

But people who actually own BMWs must be blinded by the badge, right? If Duke is a badge whore for buying a BMW, what does that make YOU, someone --who doesn't have one-- but pretended for years to have SEVERAL?

Unbelievable.


M

 

[Tornado]

Duke suggested a 323i, the runt of the BMW litter, and I made a one-sentence remark about how the vehicle wasn't good enough, in a post in which I made two other thread-related comments.

One thing though: in one of your other thread-related comments (namely, the Fit) you continued to push the idea that if it isn't a high horsepower car, regardless as to whether it handled like a boat or not, it isn't worth having. When crossed with the scoffing at the Mazda Protege (hailed by pretty much everyone as one of the most fun cars ever) and the mess that boiled over in the "Did You See Anything Good Today" thread last month, it is obscenely easy to make the comment Duke made with a very straight face.
Likewise, it is very similar as to why you took what Duke was critisizing in your post as a personal attack (just as you did before), despite the fact that it wasn't, and offer your own (albeit incorrect) sentiment in retaliation.

 

[Duke]

I offered what is, in my opinion, a significantly better car.

One which, you'll note, I actually like, and strongly recommended to you when you were asking for input. In fact, I told you I considered it a substantially better value than a newer TSX in your price range. You've conveniently forgotten this point.

At what point did I say my opinion is the only one that's valid? It seems like we're having a discussion here where we're exchanging opinions - I'm giving mine, and you're giving yours. Yet for some reason mine is "the Universal Truth" and wholly absurd and incorrect, yet yours is just an opinion - obviously the right one. You call me unwilling to accept other ideas, yet it seems to me like you're doing exactly that.

Your attitude became immediately apparent when you recommended to YSSMAN the exact car you want, which incidentally meets almost NONE of his criteria except price.

You claim everything about the G35 is subpar or substandard, which is exactly what I'd expect a 3-series owner to say, and the opposite of everything I'd expect a G35 owner to say. Neither is impartial, but those that are impartial have consistently lauded the G35 where you fault it. Seems like you're just unwilling to accept that.

Seems like you're just unwilling to accept that I formulated the opinion I hold before the thought of buying a BMW even remotely crossed my mind. I first drove a G35 in the spring of 2004 when shopping for the TSX, and 3 or 4 times after that. I also drove 2 IS300s that summer, one MTX and one ATX. I didn't even consider buying a BMW until November of 2005 or so. I also drove a G35 again when I began shopping for my car in winter 2006.

I know it's easy to agree with the forum staff, but you'll note that I wasn't the one who turned this into an argument - Duke did.

:violin:

Duke suggested a 323i, the runt of the BMW litter, and I made a one-sentence remark about how the vehicle wasn't good enough, in a post in which I made two other thread-related comments. Of course, Duke replied personally, and again I formulated a one-sentence remark about how I didn't feel the BMW name was worth the cost, in a post in which I made two other thread-related comments. Then Duke turned on me and began arguing, going off topic. I simply defended myself, as Duke has a tendency to get extremely accusatory extremely quickly.

:violin:
Nice try, but nobody's buying it. I wasn't getting personal over a 1-liner and you bloody well know it.

Way to ignore that you've been repeating this same anti-BMW-3 manifesto since at least 2004, or whenever ///M-spec bought his 330i. At every opportunity you trot out your old saw that BMW owners are badge snobs and BMWs are overpriced.

You can try playing the 'defended yourself' card if you wish, but actually you've been directly attacking 3-series owners for at least 3 years.

So as I said before, stow it and stop pretending you've been mistreated.

 

[land sea air]

M5 I'm not trying to argue with you here nor am I just agreeing with the mods. My fuel mileage is actually better than the numbers you gave i usually get over 20mpg and on long trips i usually get 25mpg. on the EPA website the 400E is listed as 16-21mpg, a little bit more significant difference than what you stated. Even if the 400E is just as reliable as the 300E (debatable either way as they are both the golden era of Mercedes but the 400E was using the fairly new M-119 engine while the 300E was still using the near decade old M-103) repair costs for engine/emissions related items are more expensive (click the link in my sig and check out the parts for 92 300E and 92 400E) even doing simple tune ups and the like will me more expensive simply because you are using newer parts and there are more of them. the cost you provided for the '93 cars isn't as relevant because that car used the new M104 engine and those cars always command a high premium. However if you move the comparison back one year you would find that the 300E is much less expensive than the 400E.

 

[1X83Z]

..

 

[Tornado]

Hang on - just because I called a spade a spade doesn't mean I have a one-track mind. The Fit isn't just slow - it's SLOW. It's among the slower cars on the U.S. market right now. It'd be slower than his present car, and he's already told us that's pretty slow. The Fit doesn't joke around.

I understand that, and I also understand that the Fit is really pushing it when it comes to whether driving fun can overcome completely inept slowness. However, when taken collectively it sounds like you do have a one track mind.

 

[land sea air]

fueleconomy.gov is where I got the numbers for the '92 400E, I do get 20+mpg regularly from a car that is in fact 20 years old. (as long as my fuel gauge, odometer and calculator all haven't gone batty) This is why any mileage quoted from EPA or even the site I used isn't going to mean much. In my experience the M-103 powered 300E has always been cheaper to buy and run than the 400E (never owned a 400E so i cant say its a direct comparison but the parts are more expensive so thats a good starting point) I'm not trying to say your facts are wrong but these are the things I have either experienced through shopping for other cars (which i always am), or that I have drawn a conclusion about from my own experience and research. either way its not too important which car is better as its up to YSS to see what car would suit him best, because of that I'm just going to let this one go before it becomes a full blown argument.👍 👍

 

[Duke]

Well, Douglas, I'm going to double post. First I'll address the car criteria issue, then we'll move on to your continued (and failing) attempts to portray yourself as a victim.

fairly comfortable
sporty enough to keep my Gran Turismo feelings satisfied
decent fuel mileage, 27-30 is a good starting point
$15K price limit
1) American or
2) German,
3) possibly even Japanese.

Nothing here mandates the TL over the BMW, or vice versa. For my taste the the TL doesn't really meet the "Gran Turismo" criteria, but it's good enough that I wouldn't dismiss it. BMW beats Acura in sportiness while giving up a little comfort, but BMW also avoids having the "possibly even" qualifier applied to its country of origin. I'm thinking BMW gets a modest victory here.

Cars I've been looking into over the past few months:

- 4th Generation Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 or Pontiac Firebird Formula V8
- Early Cadillac CTS 3.2L
- 4th Generation Volkswagen Jetta Wolfsburg 1.8T or GTI 1.8T
- Late-Model E36 323i or 328i, Early E46 323i or 325i
- 2nd Generation Mazda MX-5
- B15 Nissan Sentra SE-R (Spec-V)

Hrm. Any Acuras on that list? Nein. BMWs? Ja. That's OK, one point of a thread like this is to get ideas of which you wouldn't think yourself. Again, only a modest victory for BMW.

'00-'03 Acura 3.2 TL Type-S. Automatic only.

Kinda hurts the 'sporty GT' factor a little, at least for anyone besides you, Doug. Seems YSSMAN agrees:

- Acura TL: I like the cars a lot. Automatic-only kinda puts a damper on it though. I'm going to have to drive one to be sure of it.

- BMW 3-series: Thanks for the details. It seems like more of a long-shot than it should be (CTS is included too), but I'll keep poking around for them. A kid I go to school with has a 323ci, and every time I see it I give it a good look. I love the blue with the tan interior, manual transmission, no other extras. Nice car, but hard to find in that same level of trim.

Note that the level of trim he's referring to is 'no other extras'. In other words, he's looking for a non-complex, non-optioned manual trans car. Further borne out by his very next words:

Maximas: Great car, definitely considered here... As always, manual transmissions are required, so it may be harder to find what I want...

...To be honest, 0-60 times are great, but considering that I'm getting by with 10-ish seconds to 60 MPH, just about anything is a bit faster than what I have now... I don't need something substantially faster than what I have, but quicker would be nice...

So again, he's looking for a simple, sporty-yet-comfortable car with a manual transmission and few features, and 0-60 acceleration is fairly low on his priority list, although it's present.

So Doug's great answer to these criteria is: the TL, a heavily-featured, automatic-only, luxury car (with a nod to sportiness), whose chief selling points are 0-60 time and a navigation system, and which comes from Japan, third on YSSMAN's list of preferred countries.

Tell me again how precisely you've met his criteria, Doug? Perhaps you've forgotten his criteria a little more than I have.

Bear in mind that I actually like the older TL and do think it's a good value for what it is; which is exactly the car I described above. I just think it's the car M5Power wants to drive, not YSSMAN.

 

[///M-Spec]

Yeah - if you can't get any real traction, just keep going back to that...

Yeah - when someone exposes your obvious hypocrisy, just pretend it didn't happen. Way to go. I'm sure you'll fool everyone. Especially since you chose to quote only a sentence fragment in order to manipulate the meaning. If you have no response to something, make up something else to respond to. That's just brilliant. Hell, no one would think to look at the original only 4 posts up.


M

 

[Duke]

Yeah - if you can't get any real traction, just keep going back to that...

You made your bed, now you can lie in it. No one feels sorry for you, Doug - no one. In fact, I'd say that I probably feel more sorry for you than many people. That's part of the reason you're still a member of this forum.

Now it's your turn to play the fiddle again about how the staff hates you, persecutes you, and is rude to you.

Perhaps you've forgotten his criteria:

I would like something that is fairly comfortable, and yet sporty enough to keep my Gran Turismo feelings satisfied. - The TL is exactly the balance of comfort and sport. Absolutely fits that criteria perfectly.
...
So how does it not meet his criteria again?

I think I've dealt with that issue above fairly clearly.

I don't see how this [Duke's disliking the G35 before he bought a BMW] is relevant.

It's relevant like this, Doug. Follow me here:

1) You're claiming that it is 'typical' of a BMW 3 owner to not like the G35 because we have to rationalize buying our worse cars for more money. In other words, I don't like the G35 because I bought a 3-series.

2) I decided AGAINST a G35 BEFORE I ever even thought of buying a 3-series. Therefore:

3) Owning a 3-series could NOT cause me to dislike the G35. I must have arrived at this conclusion by some other way.

Q. E. D. Is the relevance clear, now?

When did I say I've been mistreated? All I said was we were having a discussion and, as usually happens when we're having a discussion, you got upset because I was making sense and you got accusatory ('the gospel according to Doug').

You were making sense to Doug while largely ignoring the thread starter. Which, coincidentally, is why I say that you feel your opinions and criteria are the only ones that matter to you, and why I say you think you know The Gospel of DeMuro.

I like how you didn't address my point - my opinion ('the gospel') vs. your opinion ('correct and fair').

I like how YOU didn't address MY points:

1) Anyone who drives an 11-year-old Neon is NOT a badge snob;
2) Disliking the G35 before I thought of buying a BMW means I'm not unfairly criticizing it;
3) The last-gen Acura TL barely meets YSSMAN's criteria; and
4) Doug's insistence on always suggesting the same type of car indicates that he feels he has cornered the market on The Truth.

I notice that's always how it seems to be when we have these kinds of discussions - you can never take my opinion for what it is; you have to pretend like I'm throwing it out there as fact. Mine is an opinion just like yours, my friend, and no one takes it as my arrogant facts except you. You're going to have to come to terms with that eventually.

And you're going to come to terms with the fact that you habitually push a certain set of criteria and dismiss all who do not share it as morons. That is why many people think that you throw your 'opinion' out as fact... many more people than who think you come here with an open mind.