Formula 1 Grosser Preis von Osterreich 2017Formula 1

[prisonermonkeys]

Either that, or they were asleep. Or in the bathroom. Or perhaps drunk out of their minds.

Or all three.

I didn't know Kimi Räikkönen posted here.

 

[daan]

Driver of the day was the helicopter pilot.

 

[Dennisch]

Driver of the day was the helicopter pilot.

I wonder if that low flying has any effect on the cars down below. I know that in road cycling the riders did notice that if a chopper was above that they were either held back or pushed forward.

 

[Betty blue]

Driver of the day was the helicopter pilot.

Is the helicopter get driven? Just kidding mate

 

[Jimlaad43]

I was thinking exactly the same before the race had finished. It's only if there is some sort of incident or a good race.

For reference, This was 2 pages, Baku was 12 between the lights going out and the flag falling.

 

[Famine]

For reference, This was 2 pages, Baku was 12 between the lights going out and the flag falling.

Hopefully the first poster didn't do so less than 0.2s after the lights went out.

 

[Flaren89]

And with this race, we definitely discovered who FIA wants to win the championship... If any doubts were still on...

 

[zzz_pt]

And with this race, we definitely discovered who FIA wants to win the championship... If any doubts were still on...

Funny that. After Baku some people were saying the same because Vettel didn't get DQ.

 

[SuperDiscoDaz]

Hopefully the first poster didn't do so less than 0.2s after the lights went out.

10 second posting penalty for @PeterJB for jump posting the race

 

[Flaren89]

Vettel thing need an opinion. I would have given him a DQ IN the race even if I support Ferrari, but also Hamilton penalty in race aswell (again "telemetry" says he didn't brake, but if you watch TV, he did). But again, is not purely datas and need a discussion to decide.
And here this:



How can a random guy with a regular TV catch the movement, while FIA commissions and judges didn't with 50 cameras with 3000fps and "hypertechnological" sensors? This isn't a thing you must decide... This is either YES or NO... And judging to the movement, it is a YES...

 

[Dennisch]

That's a jump-start.

 

[Sikumatchbox]

Vettel thing need an opinion. I would have given him a DQ IN the race even if I support Ferrari, but also Hamilton penalty in race aswell (again "telemetry" says he didn't brake, but if you watch TV, he did). But again, is not purely datas and need a discussion to decide.
And here this:



How can a random guy with a regular TV catch the movement, while FIA commissions and judges didn't with 50 cameras with 3000fps and "hypertechnological" sensors? This isn't a thing you must decide... This is either YES or NO... And judging to the movement, it is a YES...

Movement yes, but like the regulations it is only a Jump Start if you are out of the sensorbox. He wasn't that far before the lights were out.
(BTW the sensor is something else as the startingbox)

 

[Spurgy 777]

Vettel thing need an opinion. I would have given him a DQ IN the race even if I support Ferrari, but also Hamilton penalty in race aswell (again "telemetry" says he didn't brake, but if you watch TV, he did). But again, is not purely datas and need a discussion to decide.
And here this:



How can a random guy with a regular TV catch the movement, while FIA commissions and judges didn't with 50 cameras with 3000fps and "hypertechnological" sensors? This isn't a thing you must decide... This is either YES or NO... And judging to the movement, it is a YES...

I watched Anthony Davidson's analysis of the start that he claimed to be "frame by frame", but all he did was have 1 frame before the lights went out and one frame after so they were intentionally being misleading about the movement by not showing earlier frames.

But as others have pointed out, a false start probably isn't determined by movement but by being outside of a certain area, which Bottas must of moved out of 0.2s after the lights went out, which seems a bit silly, but if that's the rules you can't really penalise him.

 

[Flaren89]

Movement yes, but like the regulations it is only a Jump Start if you are out of the sensorbox. He wasn't that far before the lights were out.
(BTW the sensor is something else as the startingbox)

Then don't put in the rules "jump start is when car is moving before red lights goes off" but "jump start is when you get into the sensor when red lights goes off". With this new rule, driver can start do the same thing as '50 years: place themself quite a bit before the grid place and start accelerating before red lights goes off, hoping to catch the right timing.
And sincerely, it is a really idiot thing...

 

[Famine]

Then don't put in the rules "jump start is when car is moving before red lights goes off"

The question is when do they go off?

Do they go off when Charlie presses the button and the red lights in the driver's cockpit go off, or do they go off when the five lights on the gantry are no longer red?

I suspect that the situation here is that race control saw the box 1 and car 77 movement sensors recording movement after they recorded the race start button being pressed, so it's not a jump start.


I'm at a loss as to who it is that the FIA wants to win the title though, even though it's apparently clear. Who is it?

 

[Flaren89]

The question is when do they go off?

Do they go off when Charlie presses the button and the red lights in the driver's cockpit go off, or do they go off when the five lights on the gantry are no longer red?

I suspect that the situation here is that race control saw the box 1 and car 77 movement sensors recording movement after they recorded the race start button being pressed, so it's not a jump start.


I'm at a loss as to who it is that the FIA wants to win the title though, even though it's apparently clear. Who is it?

Let's take on another way...
In athletics, there is a MINIMUM reaction time. If you have a reaction time LOWER than that, it is a jump start.
Here, there is either NO MINIMUM, and even a TOLLERANCE... This means that even the one thing that should be the clearest of the world, a jump start, it can be nullified by some random decisions or escabotage... Even in MotoGP he would have been penalized as one of the 2 nullifying things, the tollerance, is absent.
And is many many years that FIA goes on with these rules. Sometimes helping Ferrari, sometimes helping McLaren, sometimes Red Bull, etc... What angers me is that rules are made so that FIA can decide how a race (or even a championship) can finish. No clear rules, looks like italian laws where judges can give complete opposite judgments even with the same exactely episode... Just depending on how the judge woke up or who is the victim/criminal.
I mean... Come on, do you remember Nurburgring 2007? Where Hamilton was put into the track and rejoining the race by the stewards? Wasn't there a rule where they couldn't? The same that made loss Senna, which Hamilton is "biggest fan", the title at Suzuka against Prost?
Seriously...

 

[Sikumatchbox]

Then don't put in the rules "jump start is when car is moving before red lights goes off" but "jump start is when you get into the sensor when red lights goes off". With this new rule, driver can start do the same thing as '50 years: place themself quite a bit before the grid place and start accelerating before red lights goes off, hoping to catch the right timing.
And sincerely, it is a really idiot thing...

I'm sorry, but I'm not the rulemaker. But the sensor isn't activated when you drive over it. It's activated when you 'park' your car at the grid. When you you start you loose contact with the sensor. If the sensor is loosing contact before the lights go off then there is a jump start.

 

[EDK]

Ah, yes. That really deserved more than just a ten second penalty.

I asked this question of someone in a PM conversation elsewhere, but if 10 seconds was not enough, what should the penalty have been?

Remember, it was not of the "time penalty" variety, which seems like the go to penalty for smaller infractions. Those involve either taking the penalty at the beginning of a scheduled pit stop, or having it added to your time at the end of the race. This was a 10 second "stop-go", which means they forced a penalty drive through PLUS a time penalty.

That's as severe a penalty as I recall F1 handing out in recent years for a driving infraction. Car infractions have obviously resulted in race DQ's at times, I recall Ricciardo 2014 Australia fuel flow issue as one that stands out.

I had someone suggest 60 seconds stop go, but in reality, that would likely have been a DQ anyhow, meaning it would have had him finishing out of the points.

As it was, the penalty cost him the race win, a podium, and would have also cost him a position to Hamilton if not for the issue with the headrest. I view that as a severe penalty.

And without the context of what penalties are normally meted out in similar circumstances, I'm not sure we can sit back and judge the severity.

Cant even remember when a driver last got a black flag besides in the mid 2000s

Right, black flag in race is a death knell. I think they are quite cautious with that sort of thing, they would rather have more time after the race to make such decisions.

Wait, F1 cars have hydraulic power steering?

Power steering becomes quite useless at higher speeds even with the large tires.

I think it has to do with the downforce levels. But even modern autos have variable displacement power steering pumps. I know the IMSA prototypes and GT cars also have electric power steering.

Most other open wheel (including Indy car) do not, but nobody is running the downforce that F1 does.

 

[SuperDiscoDaz]

The only way the FIA can explain how it wasn't a jump start is if the explain everything to do with monitoring jump starts. As in the tolerances allowed, where the sensors are on each grid spot etc.

 

[Famine]

In athletics, there is a MINIMUM reaction time. If you have a reaction time LOWER than that, it is a jump start.
Here, there is either NO MINIMUM, and even a TOLLERANCE...

Yes, I know. I said that earlier.

This means that even the one thing that should be the clearest of the world, a jump start, it can be nullified by some random decisions or escabotage...

I don't know what any of that means, nor how it relates to the questions I asked or suggestion I made.

Are you suggesting that the FIA sabotaged the starting system to allow one driver to make a jump start unpunished?

Even in MotoGP he would have been penalized as one of the 2 nullifying things, the tollerance, is absent.

Okay, but this isn't MotoGP or athletics, so trying to apply their rules doesn't make any sense.

And is many many years that FIA goes on with these rules. Sometimes helping Ferrari, sometimes helping McLaren, sometimes Red Bull, etc... What angers me is that rules are made so that FIA can decide how a race (or even a championship) can finish. No clear rules, looks like italian laws where judges can give complete opposite judgments even with the same exactely episode... Just depending on how the judge woke up or who is the victim/criminal.
I mean... Come on, do you remember Nurburgring 2007? Where Hamilton was put into the track and rejoining the race by the stewards? Wasn't there a rule where they couldn't? The same that made loss Senna, which Hamilton is "biggest fan", the title at Suzuka against Prost?
Seriously...

I'm not sure exactly who or what this is aimed at either, but again you're suggesting that the FIA has helped someone out because it wants a specific driver to win the title - but I'm still none the wiser who this driver is, even though you say it's obvious.


So, to repeat my questions to you:

The question is when do they go off?

Do they go off when Charlie presses the button and the red lights in the driver's cockpit go off, or do they go off when the five lights on the gantry are no longer red?

I'm at a loss as to who it is that the FIA wants to win the title though, even though it's apparently clear. Who is it?

The people who are adamant that it's a jump start are using the television pictures of the gantry and the car moving slightly, which suggests that they believe a jump start occurs if there is any forward movement when the gantry lights are still red.

As the official telemetry put Bottas's start reaction time at 0.201s, I'd suggest it's not quite as simple a matter as they think it is. But then what is simple in F1?

 

[Sureboss]

I'm at a loss as to who it is that the FIA wants to win the title though, even though it's apparently clear. Who is it?

Clearly, it's Palmer.

 

[SuperDiscoDaz]

Clearly, it's Palmer.

If it's Palmer I'll eat my hat

 

[Sureboss]

Driver of the day was the helicopter pilot.

For avoiding being taken out by Kvyat at the first corner?

 

[Disco_Volante]

The Spanish broadcasters said that moving less than 0.2 seconds after the lights go off is illegal, and that moving more than 0.2 seconds after is legal. During the race, when the investigation began they displayed a box that said Bottas moved 0.204 seconds after the lights went off. I dunno if these guys are correct, but Pedro de la Rosa is in there so they should know.
Also, de la Rosa said that in his opinion, Bottas 'guessed' when the lights'd go off, and got lucky being over the 0.2 sec limit.

By the way, is the whole 'the FIA clearly wants this guy winning and will penalize other and not penalize him' going again? I can't see who they want to win, though.

 

[Jimlaad43]

I'm going to be able to go on the start grid at Silverstone next week if you want me to take a photo of the grid slots so you know where the FIA sensors are.

 

[SuperDiscoDaz]

I'm going to be able to go on the start grid at Silverstone next week if you want me to take a photo of the grid slots so you know where the FIA sensors are.

I'd be happy if you did this as don't have a clue where they are and it's always good to gain more knowledge about this sport.

 

[zzz_pt]

(Indianapolis)

(Monaco)

(Monza)

 

[Liquid]

It's a gut feeling I cannot prove, of course, but I'd say Bottas guessed when the lights were going out and got lucky.

And I doubt he's the only driver who tries that.

 

[XJ40]

It's a gut feeling I cannot prove, of course, but I'd say Bottas guessed when the lights were going out and got lucky.

And I doubt he's the only driver who tries that.

Everytime I play Project Cars....

 

[calvins48]

I'm at a loss as to who it is that the FIA wants to win the title though, even though it's apparently clear. Who is it?

There's so much truth to this statement!

The waters have had some mud added to them.