MagpieRacer
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- 17,287
- Wymondham, Norfolk
- Seagull_Racer
Formula 1 Honda Japanese Grand Prix 2022Formula 1
- Thread starter Jimlaad43
- 304 comments
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- 86,802
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
For those not keeping up with the events of 2014, the FIA's report didn't pin the blame on any one factor but included the conditions, Bianchi's speed (part of the F1 culture at the time), and the presence of a recovery vehicle on a live circuit as causative factors.
It is thus rather disheartening to see a recovery vehicle being on a live circuit in similar conditions at the exact same track, and at least one driver heading past it at almost race speed; this is literally why the VSC was invented. It's not either/or: Gasly should not have been doing 155mph under double-waved yellows in that visibility, and the recovery vehicle (and that poor marshall at the front of it) should not have been there.
And yes, there's a significant difference between hitting a stranded, 800kg car with designed-in crash safety and hitting a seven-tonne digger with no crash safety features of any kind and an undercarriage at an F1 driver's brain height.
It is thus rather disheartening to see a recovery vehicle being on a live circuit in similar conditions at the exact same track, and at least one driver heading past it at almost race speed; this is literally why the VSC was invented. It's not either/or: Gasly should not have been doing 155mph under double-waved yellows in that visibility, and the recovery vehicle (and that poor marshall at the front of it) should not have been there.
And yes, there's a significant difference between hitting a stranded, 800kg car with designed-in crash safety and hitting a seven-tonne digger with no crash safety features of any kind and an undercarriage at an F1 driver's brain height.
- 1,427
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Other way around. FOM has apparently wanted to move the race to April for several years now, the organizers don't want any change at all.
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- 1,322
- United Kingdom
- rodgers1
Well that’s was interesting race. Defo plenty to talk about.
Woke up at 5.30am (uk time) to then watch 90mins of cars sit in the pit lane as they decided it was too wet. I fully understand that safety comes first and yes during that red flag it might have been very poor visibility, but I’m getting a bit bored now with the it start raining we must stop racing ASAP. But anyway glad they finally got the race going in the end.
For everyone who has to wake up early every other week to watch F1 live 👏🏻👏🏻. Can’t image how tough it for you having to get up early to watch no racing on a regular basis potentially.
Truck/Tractor - well that was stupid from the FIA, trackside marshall’s & FOM in sending out a recovery vehicle & marshalls in those conditions. Race should have been red flagged as soon as Sainz hit the wall. I honestly don’t know how all the drivers managed to miss him. As for the recovery vehicle those candle lights were pathetic. I know TV can sometimes skew the image but they didnt look bright at all.
Gasly - I’m not blaming Gasly at all for this incident, but I do think Gasly could have done more in that situation to make things more safe. Yes Gasly will be driving to a delta, but when he approaches the accident I don’t think he has slowed down enough. Yes he could be going through at a safe speed, but considering the conditions surely he would have been aware they is a car stranded on track and possible marshalls on track too.
Going forward I think in wet conditions any accidents should be red flagged asap. Any non F1 car (truck, tractor, or fire car etc…) should be fitted with certain criteria of hazard lights that meet a certain standard. Also I think with modern day tech all cars should be fitted with a yellow flag limiter. Not just today but in previous races I’ve seen cars not respecting single or double yellow flags. An automatic limiter would help in these situations.
Max Verstappen - Totally deserves this WC. He has been the best driver all season. Ferrari have messed up too many times this year which has gifted Max some of the wins, but also Max has had work for the others. The car is fast, but his talent still made the wins. Perez done well but he hasn’t got the same out of the car like Max did.
As for the race points today. That was a mess! I don’t think anyone knew what the actual rules and results were when that finished. I knew about 25/50/75% race distance issuing less points, but unaware of the rule that when a race starts and then restarts it’s still full points. What didn’t help was the media was unaware of this rule too and was feeding us the wrong the information, which definitely made things worst.
FIA & FOM have defo made themselves looks like a right set of idiots this weekend.
Woke up at 5.30am (uk time) to then watch 90mins of cars sit in the pit lane as they decided it was too wet. I fully understand that safety comes first and yes during that red flag it might have been very poor visibility, but I’m getting a bit bored now with the it start raining we must stop racing ASAP. But anyway glad they finally got the race going in the end.
For everyone who has to wake up early every other week to watch F1 live 👏🏻👏🏻. Can’t image how tough it for you having to get up early to watch no racing on a regular basis potentially.
Truck/Tractor - well that was stupid from the FIA, trackside marshall’s & FOM in sending out a recovery vehicle & marshalls in those conditions. Race should have been red flagged as soon as Sainz hit the wall. I honestly don’t know how all the drivers managed to miss him. As for the recovery vehicle those candle lights were pathetic. I know TV can sometimes skew the image but they didnt look bright at all.
Gasly - I’m not blaming Gasly at all for this incident, but I do think Gasly could have done more in that situation to make things more safe. Yes Gasly will be driving to a delta, but when he approaches the accident I don’t think he has slowed down enough. Yes he could be going through at a safe speed, but considering the conditions surely he would have been aware they is a car stranded on track and possible marshalls on track too.
Going forward I think in wet conditions any accidents should be red flagged asap. Any non F1 car (truck, tractor, or fire car etc…) should be fitted with certain criteria of hazard lights that meet a certain standard. Also I think with modern day tech all cars should be fitted with a yellow flag limiter. Not just today but in previous races I’ve seen cars not respecting single or double yellow flags. An automatic limiter would help in these situations.
Max Verstappen - Totally deserves this WC. He has been the best driver all season. Ferrari have messed up too many times this year which has gifted Max some of the wins, but also Max has had work for the others. The car is fast, but his talent still made the wins. Perez done well but he hasn’t got the same out of the car like Max did.
As for the race points today. That was a mess! I don’t think anyone knew what the actual rules and results were when that finished. I knew about 25/50/75% race distance issuing less points, but unaware of the rule that when a race starts and then restarts it’s still full points. What didn’t help was the media was unaware of this rule too and was feeding us the wrong the information, which definitely made things worst.
FIA & FOM have defo made themselves looks like a right set of idiots this weekend.
What a mess that was. Glad I didn't get up at 6.
Not that the latter really matters in the grand scheme of things, he was always going to be champion at some point, but still. What a mess, and one day that points system is going to cause real controversy.
EDIT: Just to add on the recovery vehicle, a reminder that Maria de Villota suffered her eventual life ending injuries when she hit a lowered truck at no more than 40mph. Yes, they have the halo now but even if Gasly was going slow if he didn't see the vehicle in time and hit it, it could have still been very dangerous.
- Recovery trucks should not be on a live track with visibility that poor. End of. Completely different on a clear day. Any vehicles on a track with visibility that poor should be VERY clearly visible, ie an emergency vehicle with lights flashing.
- Gasly was also going too fast.
- The "extreme wet" tyres are clearly terrible that they'd rather run in heavy rain with inters.
- The FIA has somehow made the points system even more convoluted that nobody understands, and it makes no sense. Full points as long as we restart? Who came up with that one?
Not that the latter really matters in the grand scheme of things, he was always going to be champion at some point, but still. What a mess, and one day that points system is going to cause real controversy.
EDIT: Just to add on the recovery vehicle, a reminder that Maria de Villota suffered her eventual life ending injuries when she hit a lowered truck at no more than 40mph. Yes, they have the halo now but even if Gasly was going slow if he didn't see the vehicle in time and hit it, it could have still been very dangerous.
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- 9,262
- Corsham
- lipming
I made my own calendar and put it in April:
1976 was a washout, 1988 and 1993 were dry-wet, 1994 and 1995 were wet, there was light rain in 2000, quali was moved to Sunday morning in 2004, 2007 was a washout, Friday was wet in 2009, quali was moved to Sunday morning in 2010, 2014 was held during a literal typhoon, Friday was wet in 2015 and 2016, and quali was moved to Sunday morning in 2019 as well. Quite a high hit rate for wet weather.
- 868
- Londongrad
Just finished watching the C4 highlights, and I'm really not sure why people are feeling the need to pick a side RE: Gasly and the Tractor; surely both the FIA and Gasly/AT are at fault?
Gasly and/or AT because Gasly should have been aware (or made aware) of where Sainz' car ended up, and as far as I can recall Albon stuttered to a halt a few dozen metres further along, so he HAD to have eased up after the hairpin for the sweep around to Spoon.
On the other side the FIA have to make it abundantly clear that there are recovery teams on track; Brundle tweeted that the recovery operation should only have started once the field are sufficiently bunched up, which seems incredibly sensible if it isn't in the rulebook to begin with. Not only that but the truck was barely visible, surely it has to be mandatory for flashing/emergency lights to be working on those vehicles?
No wonder Jules' father is near apoplectic about that whole mess.
Gasly and/or AT because Gasly should have been aware (or made aware) of where Sainz' car ended up, and as far as I can recall Albon stuttered to a halt a few dozen metres further along, so he HAD to have eased up after the hairpin for the sweep around to Spoon.
On the other side the FIA have to make it abundantly clear that there are recovery teams on track; Brundle tweeted that the recovery operation should only have started once the field are sufficiently bunched up, which seems incredibly sensible if it isn't in the rulebook to begin with. Not only that but the truck was barely visible, surely it has to be mandatory for flashing/emergency lights to be working on those vehicles?
No wonder Jules' father is near apoplectic about that whole mess.
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So in regards to the points it seems they simply forgot to add stipulations regarding races that finish under green, only those that are suspended and don't restart. As a result, any race that finishes under green, irrespective of length, will get full points in the current ruleset.
That's the sort of thing that happens when you let your Dad's mate who used to do a bit of accounting 30 years ago write the rules for the local Sunday league football. It shouldn't happen with a huge organisation running one of the top sporting series in the world.
That's the sort of thing that happens when you let your Dad's mate who used to do a bit of accounting 30 years ago write the rules for the local Sunday league football. It shouldn't happen with a huge organisation running one of the top sporting series in the world.
- 4,772
- Netherlands
- PaMu1337
Reading through how the rules are phrased, I'm pretty confident that's exactly what happened. For multiple other rules it is clearly stated for which specific cases it does not apply, even when it would already be implied from the base rule. Not here.
Logically I also don't see any reason to exclude this situation from the rule.
It really seems like an oversight for a very specific situation (but one that's not far-fetched) that just seemingly never happened before.
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ROAD_DOGG33J
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- holyc0w1
- holyc0w
Good decision mate. 👍
That was a bit of a disaster with the points situation.
There was some good racing with the 45 minutes we got. I wish somebody went on new inters sooner to spice things up. Hamilton might've been a decent option as he was struggling to pass Ocon.
AshenGraey
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- 1,380
- Canada
- AshenGraey
Didn't watch the race and from what I've read on this thread, I don't feel like it's necessary to even watch the highlights...Anyway, Congrats to Max, credit where credit is due. Even though this looked like one of the easiest championship to date, he did the work and showed yet again he's got the speed, the consistency and the talent to stay on top. Despite my personal bias against Red Bull as a team, they've also been on top of their games too so a very well deserved WCC for them. As @Veinz said, I hope this will not be the start of another dominant run by another team/driver. As "impressive" as they were over the last decade, we can't keep having the same thing repeating. This season fell so flat compared to last year, I really hope all the other teams have learned enough from the new regulations to come back next season with cars that are competitive from the start.
My hope and wish for F1 2023 is to have at least 5 competitive teams in the title fight from the start of the season all the way to the final race and may the best driver over the season wins because they were consistent, fast and their race craft/skills made the difference and not just because they had the most dominant package. I want to watch each grand prix not knowing which driver or team will have pole and/or win the race.
My hope and wish for F1 2023 is to have at least 5 competitive teams in the title fight from the start of the season all the way to the final race and may the best driver over the season wins because they were consistent, fast and their race craft/skills made the difference and not just because they had the most dominant package. I want to watch each grand prix not knowing which driver or team will have pole and/or win the race.
How has he reached his peak since 2018? If that's the case, we can't expect to see much more from him and his future in F1 then?....and from what Max has shown so far, I find that hard to believe.
- 2,836
- CA, USA
- Sum1s2pid
Barely stayed awake to catch the restart, then promptly passed out after shaking my head at Leclerc boning the chicane on the final lap. I wake up and was also confused about the half/full points situation.
Congrats to Max? I've no doubt he'll finish the season in 1st, but that was... weird.
Congrats to Max? I've no doubt he'll finish the season in 1st, but that was... weird.
- 2,777
- New Plymouth
Don't worry, it was a normal FIA Stewarding clown show. Crane on track during impossible to see conditions so lethally endangering drivers' lives. Running in the rain, then not, then maybe, then ok. Penalties handed out by RNG. And They even managed to have Max crowned by a rule his own team claims is wrong and needs to be fixed.Barely stayed awake to catch the restart, then promptly passed out after shaking my head at Leclerc boning the chicane on the final lap. I wake up and was also confused about the half/full points situation.
Congrats to Max? I've no doubt he'll finish the season in 1st, but that was... weird.
They've managed to not only aggravate and annoy almost all the fans with incompetence, but even managed to have the winners of the whole lot confused and claiming it's broken.
IcySlivers
(Banned)
- 148
- United States
Just want the 2023 season to start already. Really hoping Mercedes stop smoking crack and make a good car for their drivers. This zero side pod thing clearly was a bad direction to go in. I still want to see Hamilton break Schumachers record and get that 8th title. After that it will be enough. Then maybe Leclerc can grab a championship or two.
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- 86,802
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
The BBC reckons the individual directly responsible for writing the new rule (although all the teams will have agreed to it) which included the phrase "and cannot be restarted" to result in the stupidity today was...
... Michael Masi.
... Michael Masi.
McLaren
Premium
- 45,412
- Texas
One of Mercedes' engineers said they've already figured out the mistake that has plagued the car's performance & will be fixed next year. They've been slowly tweaking it this year, but obviously can't do what's necessary because of costs.
Theories aren't the side pod, but possibly around the rear of the car. The cross fingers from fans is that the fix unlocks what Mercedes is after with the side pod design.
IcySlivers
(Banned)
- 148
- United States
Hopefully this this just their “I’m going to play baseball for a year” move and they come back and Slam dunk everyone hard. Break all kinds of records.
- 1,427
- ️Leiden
(1994)
That part of the rule has been around for at least thirty years, probably even fourty years considering the original half points rule was created in the early 1980s. The intended meaning of that phrase seems to have been "if the race can be restarted, it will be completed in full". It was meaningless until it became possible for a race to be completed without reaching full distance. I doubt that Charlie Whiting was ever aware of it either, otherwise he'd have raised concerns after the creation of the 4 hour time limit in 2012.
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Yes I believe this is the first time a race has gone to the 3 hour time limit without reaching 75% of race distance but finished under green. It wasn't a problem in the past with the 4 hour limit.
If we still had the 4 hour limit the race could've gone an extra hour and they'd have easily reached 75%. Although in this specific case light would've been an issue, which is again because of a changed rule moving races from 1pm to 2pm local.
If we still had the 4 hour limit the race could've gone an extra hour and they'd have easily reached 75%. Although in this specific case light would've been an issue, which is again because of a changed rule moving races from 1pm to 2pm local.
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