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[baldgye]

How many drivers went through that corner without crashing on the lap? Regardless of aquaplaning or not, a rule is a rule and as the FIA takes safety rules and violations very seriously, this is one that should have been enforced.

Drivers crashing under yellow flags is what killed Bianchi. Can you imagine the fallout if Hamilton had skated under the crane which came out to clear the Ferrari later if the timing was worse?

Hold on you are conflating two very different things. What killed Bianchi was the speed of the accident and the speed of the deceleration. His death was caused due to him driving too quickly under yellow flags. What was introduced to combat/prevent this was the VSC and delta times that drivers couldn't exceed.

Lewis didn't break this rule, infact due to his crash and recovery he was actually automatically pinged as driving too slowly.
And if they really took safety that seriously, they'd have penalised Leclerc for an unsafe release, which if Romain hadn't slammed on the breaks (of it someone had been close behind him when he did) could have caused a pile up/crash in a full pitlane.

I don't mind the penalty it's self Lewis's race was over when he crashed.
It just didn't seem consistent (with Leclerc's) or make sense from a safety POV as what they are saying by penalising Lewis for boxing when he did, was that he should have completed another lap... on an increasingly wet track, on slicks and with half a front wing, dropping debris and probably having another crash along the way.

To me that highlights that actually, safety isn't a key driver for them when handing out penalties.

Hamilton had skated under the crane which came out to clear the Ferrari later if the timing was worse?

He wasn't going fast enough for it to cause the injuries Bianchi received AND he'd be protected by the Halo anyway.

 

[daan]

He wasn't going fast enough for it to cause the injuries Bianchi received AND he'd be protected by the Halo anyway.

But how would Hamilton's halo protect Leclerc, or any of the marshals that may have been there, from Hamilton's crashing car?

 

[DesertPenguin]

But how would Hamilton's halo protect Leclerc, or any of the marshals that may have been there, from Hamilton's crashing car?

I too was very concerned that Leclerc's car wasn't fully out of the way and Hamilton almost crashed right into it. Would Mercedes have to pay for the Ferrari repairs?

 

[baldgye]

But how would Hamilton's halo protect Leclerc, or any of the marshals that may have been there, from Hamilton's crashing car?

It wouldn't?

Edit: but the delta Lewis had to drive to meant that his accident was at a much lower speed than Bianchi’s. So they had time to get out of the way.

Like, if you’ve seen the impact of Bianchi’s car and the speed at which it was going you’ll realise how unrelated they are. I’m not saying it wasn’t dangerous and that the marshals aren’t at risk, but this is motor-racing and any one who is on a live track is at risk (even under a VSC or SC).

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Well, let's be honest: Does anyone here seriously think anyone is going to beat Hamilton?

That and his contract may be up for grabs. I'm not sure if anybody talked to him about it before the interviews.

 

[Dennisch]

And if they really took safety that seriously, they'd have penalised Leclerc for an unsafe release,

Why penalise a driver for a team error? The team made the mistake, they get the penalty, or in this case, a fine.

Hamilton's 5 second penalty should have been a stop and go or something because he definitely gained an advantage by diving into the pit instead of doing the entire lap. He made the mistake, behind the safety car, so he was clearly going too fast for the conditions.

My opinion is that he tried to speed up a bit to increase the gap behind him, to keep his position secured, and that hit him on the nose.

 

[Schmiggz]

This was a super entertaining one
God bless the rain, wet circuit, semi dry in some points, team response and delivery. Great Max Verstappen performance, absolutely fantastic win.
Heads down to everyone that survived the puddles and last turn and Lance Stroll. What a race, buddy
Great to see the smaller teams being able to deliver with they're new packages, how well Toro Rosso grabbed a podium and what happened to an almighty Merc trying to pass a Racing Point.
And Vettel.
How many of us spent the whole race waiting for Vettel to crash?
Patience, emotional control, nothing to lose, all to win. Absolutely amazing.
The Mercs... all wrong.
Unreal.
I wonder how long will it take for Max to catch Bottas in the standings.

 

[BrainsBush]

And again RedBull beat their own fastest pitstop. One of Max' five pitstops was done in 1,88 seconds.

Picking up my wrench already takes more time

 

[Peter.]

If F1 wants to create "exciting" racing, then one of the things it could do is reduce the amount of time teams have in preparation for when it counts on Sunday. If there has to be practice then get rid of FP1 and FP2, but reduce FP3 to just 45 minutes instead of an hour and keep it on Saturday morning: less time in-between sessions. Yes, the weather can't be controlled, but if the time spent on circuit across the weekend can be reduced, then there's less data to work from, and a good chance that not everyone will have found the optimum set-up for their cars in time for race day (or indeed qualifying), meaning that situations like today's race in Germany are more likely to arise

Or, the big teams just flex their financial muscles and run intense number crunching and simulation at the factory to a level that the small teams could never match, and the gap gets even bigger?

The wet races always have a higher level of unpredictability that you can't replicate just by giving them less practice sessions. The practice sessions are closer to the bottom of the list of why this sport is so formulaic at times.

 

[Jimlaad43]

@baldgye, maybe I'm getting too triggered, or just maybe I'm leaning on my experience as a marshal who has seen people crashing under yellow flags and safety cars and getting massive penalties, or has had to jump out of the way of cars doing just what Lewis did at Hockenheim. At Silverstone this weekend, a driver came out of the pits, drove into the side of another driver and sent them both into the barriers under the Safety Car. The driver at fault got sent to the back of the grid for their second race and also had to serve a 10-second stop and go penalty on the end of the first lap for such a crash.

But no, crashing at a point where marshals and recovery vehicles are likely to be exposed is obviously completely fine and OK, which is why Bianchi didn't get a penalty for his crash in Japan. The VSC was brought in to F1 to stop a Bianchi situation happening again. The real issue here is that Hamilton crashed in unforgivable circumstances, and because he wasn't joined by anybody else on the grid on the same lap, he can't blame the conditions for being overly bad. Yes it was an innocent mistake exacerbated by the conditions, but he isn't a rookie club driver, he's a 5-time World Champion, and like all drivers on the grid, is supposed to be one of the best drivers in the world.

I didn't want to pull the "I'm a marshal so therefore I know the rules and dangers" card, but it appears I had to...

 

[EDK]

I totally agree with Coulthard's take on the penalty for two reasons:

1. Hamilton didn't know how damaged the car was, so to take it around for another lap would have been irresponsible at best given what the car could have left on the track, especially in the prevailing conditions
2. Driving the car backwards to get round the bollard would have been an unacceptable safety risk to oncoming traffic. He almost certainly would have got a penalty for this as well had he have done so.

The stewards screwed up on this IMO. Hamilton was in a rock and a hard place with this and IMO he made the right choice, unless people think he should have stopped and retired thus causing another incident requiring a safety car.

You have to think about why the rule is there to begin with.

What if another car was attempting to enter the pits at the same time as Hamilton?

I think they handled it right by giving a penalty, while making it a relatively mild penalty.

If that happened on a dry track at race speed due to a last second call by the team, my guess is that the penalty would be more severe.

 

[baldgye]

@baldgye, maybe I'm getting too triggered, or just maybe I'm leaning on my experience as a marshal who has seen people crashing under yellow flags and safety cars and getting massive penalties, or has had to jump out of the way of cars doing just what Lewis did at Hockenheim. At Silverstone this weekend, a driver came out of the pits, drove into the side of another driver and sent them both into the barriers under the Safety Car. The driver at fault got sent to the back of the grid for their second race and also had to serve a 10-second stop and go penalty on the end of the first lap for such a crash.

But no, crashing at a point where marshals and recovery vehicles are likely to be exposed is obviously completely fine and OK, which is why Bianchi didn't get a penalty for his crash in Japan. The VSC was brought in to F1 to stop a Bianchi situation happening again. The real issue here is that Hamilton crashed in unforgivable circumstances, and because he wasn't joined by anybody else on the grid on the same lap, he can't blame the conditions for being overly bad. Yes it was an innocent mistake exacerbated by the conditions, but he isn't a rookie club driver, he's a 5-time World Champion, and like all drivers on the grid, is supposed to be one of the best drivers in the world.

I didn't want to pull the "I'm a marshal so therefore I know the rules and dangers" card, but it appears I had to...

I'm right and you're wrong isn't very conducive to a discussion.
I've not seen the incident you cited at Silverstone, but I'm not sure how it relates to Lewis's aquaplaning?

The real issue here is that Hamilton crashed in unforgivable circumstances...

No he didn't, he had zero grip due to being on the wrong tyres and spun out, like Leclerc did, like Max did, like Hulkenburg did. Once the drivers hit that drag strip they had zero control. Lewis was keeping to his delta, he wasn't driving quickly and managed to avoid anyone and anything through what little control he had (you can see his ability to avoid major impact when comparing his T1 spin with Bottas's).

But no, crashing at a point where marshals and recovery vehicles are likely to be exposed is obviously completely fine and OK, which is why Bianchi didn't get a penalty for his crash in Japan.

Who said it was fine and ok? It sucks, but it's a live racetrack, the only way to avoid it and keep every marshal safe would be to make all the cars stop on track. And as you pointed out Bianchi didn't get a penalty, instead he lost his life and as you later point out the FIA introduced the VSC.

Yes it was an innocent mistake exacerbated by the conditions, but he isn't a rookie club driver, he's a 5-time World Champion, and like all drivers on the grid, is supposed to be one of the best drivers in the world.

So it now is forgivable?
Below is the previously mentioned comparison, between a 5x WDC and a good non-champion keeping it out of the wall in near identical spins;



I'm not sure what you are arguing, unless they should simply stop races when marshals are recovering a car on track there is no way to make them safe under a SC, even in dry conditions one of the guys could get a puncture or have a any number of mechanical issues that throws parts towards the marshals.
If there is anything/anyone to blame, its the people who put that drag strip on a part of the track so close to the track and barriers which gave so little room between the track and the marshal post.


EDIT: to repeat, for safety reasons I don't understand the penalty, because by penalising Lewis they made the 'correct procedure' for Lewis to then do ANOTHER lap, with a broken car and the wrong tyres... which, would be MORE dangerous than simply boxing when he did, on the wrong side of the bollard.

 

[Barra333]

His death was caused due to him driving too quickly under yellow flags

could also say...
His death Hamilton's crash was caused due to him driving too quickly under yellow flags.

The speed involved and the outcome are different, but the cause is the same. Both were driving faster than the conditions (track + tyre grip) permitted when the circuit was in a state (yellow flag) where the entire point is to not do that. I've never marshalled a day in my life, but I agree completely with @Jimlaad43 on this one.

 

[baldgye]

could also say...
His death Hamilton's crash was caused due to him driving too quickly under yellow flags.

The speed involved and the outcome are different, but the cause is the same. Both were driving faster than the conditions (track + tyre grip) permitted when the circuit was in a state (yellow flag) where the entire point is to not do that. I've never marshalled a day in my life, but I agree completely with @Jimlaad43 on this one.

I mean, he was investigated for driving too slowly under SC conditions due to his crash...

I was trying to find the marshalling rules ref SC deployments and found one from last years British GP. It states a few things, yet mostly that drivers need to keep above a minimum delta and form up behind the SC (as per below). I don't know if these are out-dated;

All competing cars must reduce speed and form up in line behind the safety car no more than ten car lengths apart. In order to ensure that drivers reduce speed sufficiently, from the time at which all teams have been sent the “SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED” message via the official messaging system until the time that each car crosses the first safety car line for the second time, drivers must stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU at least once in each marshalling sector (a marshalling sector is defined as the section of track between each of the FIA light panels). In addition, any driver entering the pit lane at the end of his first or second lap after deployment of the safety car, must be above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU at the first safety car line as he enters the pit lane

I also can't see anything that suggests anything differently from the official rules, unless I'm missing something? Maybe the rules on marshalling need to be changed so that no marshals are on track until after the SC has collected all of the cars?

All the delta's the drivers have they work to maximise, under VSC and SC Rosberg did this very well vs Lewis when he was racing. Getting the most out of limits is part of the sport.

From what I can see, Lewis broke no rules other than driving on the wrong side of the cone, which again, if he'd stayed out, would have been more dangerous than him pitting...

 

[Carbon_6]

F1 tickets can be expensive enough as they are, reducing the amount of time the cars are on track, or the opportunity for cheap 'Friday' tickets doesn't do the spectators any favours. Further to that, it's unpredictable in-race conditions that help. Simply engineering a situation where different teams have set-ups dialled in, or not, would surely just see a processional race.

 

[Barra333]

I mean, he was investigated for driving too slowly under SC conditions due to his crash...

I have to admit I'm fuzzy on the details as I was trying to keep one eye/ear on the GP and the other on a recently-mobile baby, but was that investigation automatically triggered by the system due to Hamilton taking the scenic route through the final sector? I vaguely remember them talking about that in the coverage around that time, but no idea if it was about Hamilton.

 

[baldgye]

I have to admit I'm fuzzy on the details as I was trying to keep one eye/ear on the GP and the other on a recently-mobile baby, but was that investigation automatically triggered by the system due to Hamilton taking the scenic route through the final sector? I vaguely remember them talking about that in the coverage around that time, but no idea if it was about Hamilton.

It was apparently due to a mixture of his crash and then recovering to the pits. But if you watch his on-board, he's crawling through that sector. When he hit that corner, on slicks I don't think it would have made much difference, it was just a lottery where he ended up and his skill was keeping it going.

Like I said, I think the only comparison was Germany 2008(?) when it started raining into T1. In this years race they'd just boxed for slicks thinking it was drying, only for it to rain again in the final sector.

 

[Jimlaad43]

I'm not sure what you are arguing, unless they should simply stop races when marshals are recovering a car on track there is no way to make them safe under a SC, even in dry conditions one of the guys could get a puncture or have a any number of mechanical issues that throws parts towards the marshals.
If there is anything/anyone to blame, its the people who put that drag strip on a part of the track so close to the track and barriers which gave so little room between the track and the marshal post.

How many cars crashed at that corner under the Safety Car? Only one, Hamilton. If everyone had skated off under the yellows, like we had at the Nurburgring in 2007, then it would be possible to blame the conditions, but he was the only crasher, so it is all Lewis to blame.

As we see from this photo, Charles Leclerc is walking in front of the tyre wall at the time Hamilton goes off. There are Safety Car boards out and double-yellows at this section. I know it's another "what if" that people hate me using in discussions, but what if Hamilton hits Leclerc? I really don't see how this is even a discussion? Hamilton has crashed in literally the worst point possible, putting himself, another driver and potentially marshals in very serious danger. Are you trying to argue that crashing under yellow flags is OK if you can blame something else? If other drivers had also crashed in the yellow flags at this corner, maybe it could be argued that conditions were too bad, but other drivers on the same tyres navigated that corner without issue.

Here is the relevant regulation in the F1 2019 Sporting Regulations

39.5
No car may be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the safety car is deployed. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.

Hamilton drove in a manner which could be deemed dangerous to other people.

I'm right and you're wrong isn't very conducive to a discussion.
I've not seen the incident you cited at Silverstone, but I'm not sure how it relates to Lewis's aquaplaning?

This isn't a discussion about an opinion though (ok the penalty bit maybe), but the fact we're discussing is that drivers crashing under Safety Cars is a bad offense, and I brought up a relevant incident showing how it is a punishable offense. I'm right and you're wrong works when you have armchair expert vs actual expert, but only when the actual expert has tried to give evidence of A: the reason their claim is "right" and B: the validity of their expertise, which I have now done twice. As a marshal, I am supposed to know the flag rules, and therefore know what drivers can and cannot do when under certain restrictions. A yellow flag is a protective flag for everyone involved as it shows there is more danger.

If overtaking under yellows is a serious offense, surely crashing under yellows is an even more serious offense.

 

[Carbon_6]

Comparison of the two Mercedes spins at T1. You can see how different steering inputs contributed to Bottas hitting the wall and Lewis not.

Hamilton's steering input was very similar to Verstappen's when he went for a spin on the medium tyres on lap 26.

 

[baldgye]

How many cars crashed at that corner under the Safety Car? Only one, Hamilton. If everyone had skated off under the yellows, like we had at the Nurburgring in 2007, then it would be possible to blame the conditions, but he was the only crasher, so it is all Lewis to blame.

As we see from this photo, Charles Leclerc is walking in front of the tyre wall at the time Hamilton goes off. There are Safety Car boards out and double-yellows at this section. I know it's another "what if" that people hate me using in discussions, but what if Hamilton hits Leclerc? I really don't see how this is even a discussion? Hamilton has crashed in literally the worst point possible, putting himself, another driver and potentially marshals in very serious danger. Are you trying to argue that crashing under yellow flags is OK if you can blame something else? If other drivers had also crashed in the yellow flags at this corner, maybe it could be argued that conditions were too bad, but other drivers on the same tyres navigated that corner without issue.

You keep saying that I'm essentially saying that it's ok to crash under SC conditions. I don't think it's ok to crash full stop, so relax lol.
Leclerc (as far as I know) should have climbed over the barriers, rather than walking track side to the marshal post.

If everyone had skated off under the yellows, like we had at the Nurburgring in 2007, then it would be possible to blame the conditions, but he was the only crasher, so it is all Lewis to blame.

Little hyperbolic, the speeds are different, and not everyone went off at T1.

Hamilton has crashed in literally the worst point possible, putting himself, another driver and potentially marshals in very serious danger.

Ok, but that was due to the conditions, the ones that caught out Leclerc and Max...

Hamilton drove in a manner which could be deemed dangerous to other people.

Except the stewards? As you can see in the picture you posted, there is a dry line. If you're trying to suggest that going off that would count as dangerous driving you'd have to change how stewarding it done across every F1 race in the wet. It wouldn't be a test of skill, but of following either the line, or being penalised by the stewards.

This isn't a discussion about an opinion though (ok the penalty bit maybe), but the fact we're discussing is that drivers crashing under Safety Cars is a bad offense, and I brought up a relevant incident showing how it is a punishable offense. I'm right and you're wrong works when you have armchair expert vs actual expert, but only when the actual expert has tried to give evidence of A: the reason their claim is "right" and B: the validity of their expertise, which I have now done twice. As a marshal, I am supposed to know the flag rules, and therefore know what drivers can and cannot do when under certain restrictions. A yellow flag is a protective flag for everyone involved as it shows there is more danger.

No need to be rude is there, I never claimed to be an expert (unlike yourself), just someone having a conversation.
You referenced a race that I've not seen and didn't link to any footage of it, is that really 'evidence' or an anecdote? I've never doubted you're understanding of the rules or your ability to marshal, that's why I asked to confirm my understanding of the rules I linked and quoted was correct...

If overtaking under yellows is a serious offense, surely crashing under yellows is an even more serious offense.

Well, I would disagree, because overtaking has inherent intent behind it, where as crashing, is just an accident? Also you stand to gain from overtaking, where as, what do you gain by crashing? It ruined Lewis's race...

 

[Roo]

I mean, he was investigated for driving too slowly under SC conditions due to his crash...

Not due to his crash, due to an anomaly in the FIA's systems. (Also @Barra333 , that should answer your question.)

EDIT: to repeat, for safety reasons I don't understand the penalty, because by penalising Lewis they made the 'correct procedure' for Lewis to then do ANOTHER lap, with a broken car and the wrong tyres... which, would be MORE dangerous than simply boxing when he did, on the wrong side of the bollard.

From what I can see, Lewis broke no rules other than driving on the wrong side of the cone, which again, if he'd stayed out, would have been more dangerous than him pitting...

You appear to be missing the point here.

@Jimlaad43 isn't talking about the penalty Lewis received for the pitlane entry; that's immaterial, as is the investigation into driving too slowly against the lap delta (explained above). He's talking about how Hamilton avoided a penalty for crashing in the first place.

You wouldn't expect a car to be leaving the circuit under safety car conditions if it's travelling at a slow enough pace. That suggests Hamilton was driving too fast for the conditions, in his case being on slicks on a wet track. Remarkably, in the link I posted above, Michael Masi was unconcerned about Hamilton losing control under double yellows, which personally I find worrying; it should at least be a point raised in the next driver's briefing at the absolute minimum.

I need to check, but I have a vague recollection that the safety car was called after the leader - Lewis - had passed the pit entry on the previous lap, but most of the rest of the field got the opportunity to dive in and change to intermediates. How many drivers were still on slicks on the lap Hamilton went off may explain why noone else followed him off the road; it's possible most, if not all, of the rest of the field were already on inters. I'll need to look into that.

 

[baldgye]

He's talking about how Hamilton avoided a penalty for crashing in the first place.

I'm aware, but I don't think what happened was worthy of a penalty (for crashing).

You wouldn't expect a car to be leaving the circuit under safety car conditions if it's travelling at a slow enough pace. That suggests Hamilton was driving too fast for the conditions, in his case being on slicks on a wet track. Remarkably, in the link I posted above, Michael Masi was unconcerned about Hamilton losing control under double yellows, which personally I find worrying; it should at least be a point raised in the next driver's briefing at the absolute minimum.

Or suggests that he was driving slowly and that he simply aquaplaned.


Edit: footage of the crash;



You can see Lewis places part of his rear of line and on the slightly wet patch (same thing he and Bottas did at T1) and gets a twitch of the rear, suggesting his speed wasn't actually the issue. And who knows, if he drove slower maybe he'd loose temps in his cold slicks, which I guess would be even more dangerous?

 

[Barra333]

Not due to his crash, due to an anomaly in the FIA's systems. (Also @Barra333 , that should answer your question.)

Thanks. I'm going to take a partial credit on my recollection - the 'investigation' was triggered by a weird scenario brought about by the misadventure.

 

[Jimlaad43]

I'm aware, but I don't think what happened was worthy of a penalty (for crashing).

Did he break this rule? Yes or no?

No car may be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the safety car is deployed. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.

Ok, but that was due to the conditions, the ones that caught out Leclerc and Max...

They caught out a lot of drivers, but all of these were under Green Flag conditions, when it is OK to crash. Under Safety Car and yellow flags, drivers are Instructed by the flags to not crash, whether intentional or not. Lewis did not have a mechanical failure and no other drivers crashed on the same lap. This is the point you are missing. A yellow flag is designed to protect people and drivers are expected to keep control of the car during this time.

I am not debating anything to do with the SC timing, nothing to do with the pit bollard, just purely the Fact that he crashed at the most dangerous part of the circuit, was the only one to crash there after being given the instruction to slow down and, crucially, not drive in any way that is dangerous to drivers or other people - to which Leclerc and marshals likely to be in the area count as.

No need to be rude is there, I never claimed to be an expert (unlike yourself), just someone having a conversation.
You referenced a race that I've not seen and didn't link to any footage of it, is that really 'evidence' or an anecdote? I've never doubted you're understanding of the rules or your ability to marshal, that's why I asked to confirm my understanding of the rules I linked and quoted was correct...

Any rudeness here is unintentional, so I'm sorry if anything has offended you, but I am merely trying to validate my claims with personal experience, required knowledge and relevant examples. If you read the rest of the responses, you'll see that my points seem to be resonating with everyone else because they are correct...

 

[baldgye]

Did he break this rule? Yes or no?

No.
The stewards decide how the rules are interpenetrated and implemented and they didn't penalise Lewis for crashing.

They caught out a lot of drivers, but all of these were under Green Flag conditions, when it is OK to crash. Under Safety Car and yellow flags, drivers are Instructed by the flags to not crash, whether intentional or not. Lewis did not have a mechanical failure and no other drivers crashed on the same lap. This is the point you are missing. A yellow flag is designed to protect people and drivers are expected to keep control of the car during this time.

I'm not missing what you are saying, I'm fundamentally disagreeing with the notion that its 'ok' and 'not ok' to crash. There isn't anywhere I've seen in the rules any mention of 'do not crash', only; do not drive to slowly or dangerously, Lewis didn't do either in my opinion and the stewards opinion.

Any rudeness here is unintentional, so I'm sorry if anything has offended you, but I am merely trying to validate my claims with personal experience, required knowledge and relevant examples. If you read the rest of the responses, you'll see that my points seem to be resonating with everyone else because they are correct...

Other people on the internet agreeing with you doesn't make you more right, especially when the actual people's opinion that matters (and the actual experts) disagree with your claim that he should have been penalised for crashing under the SC.
This is why I said this was a discussion, because we're talking about and explaining our opinions on an event that officials and stewards have already adjudicated over. Which is why I was asking you not to be unnecessarily rude. 👍

 

[Jimlaad43]

No.
The stewards decide how the rules are interpenetrated and implemented and they didn't penalise Lewis for crashing.

Because that went well in Canada...

 

[DesertPenguin]

Other people on the internet agreeing with you doesn't make you more right,

No, but trends do tend to point things out.

 

[baldgye]

No, but trends do tend to point things out.

 

[DesertPenguin]

What? He's not wrong.

 

[baldgye]

What? He's not wrong.

Ok mate, I'm done this is utterly pointless.