Forza 4 details: Tyre simulation, Kinect head-tracking

[Delphic Reason]

I have the Fanatec wheel, and the assistance is pretty much not there, unless I switch to the controller, then it's there.

But I agree, give us the option to remove it in all scenarios.

The assist and buffer is NOT there with a fanatec

Sorry, but you're both wrong. (I use a Fanatec Turbo S UE)

The "steering buffer" as it's often called, is impossible to turn off, and does a certain amount of steering for you whether you're sliding, or just taking a normal corner.

If you use a 900 degree wheel it's incredibly obvious. Turn on the telemetry and you'll see what I mean.

You can have the wheel set to 900, yet you only need to use the first 270 degrees 90% of the time, even when drifting.

Next to the awful floaty physics, the steering buffer was the biggest drawback of the game, especially for wheel owners.

 

[Dopplegagger]

I think FM3 made MS a tidy amount of money and as a reward, T10 are being given time to do this properly.

I hope so... But if they were to take "too long" you can bet that Microsoft would tell them to release it in an acceptable form, so they can get sales. Still, without their main competition releasing a title this year, they problably have more elbow room and they do not have to rush to the market this time around.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Sorry, but you're both wrong. (I use a Fanatec Turbo S UE)

The "steering buffer" as it's often called, is impossible to turn off, and does a certain amount of steering for you whether you're sliding, or just taking a normal corner.

If you use a 900 degree wheel it's incredibly obvious. Turn on the telemetry and you'll see what I mean.

You can have the wheel set to 900, yet you only need to use the first 270 degrees 90% of the time, even when drifting.

Next to the awful floaty physics, the steering buffer was the biggest drawback of the game, especially for wheel owners.

I will have to say you are wrong. I have the Fanatec Porsche Turbo S wheel, and that is not the experience that I and others have had. The 900 degrees is indeed supported. I do agree that the 900 degree does seem off with drifting though.

But as already been stated before, this is with the controller that has the steering assist.

 

[Dopplegagger]

Sorry, but you're both wrong. (I use a Fanatec Turbo S UE)

The "steering buffer" as it's often called, is impossible to turn off, and does a certain amount of steering for you whether you're sliding, or just taking a normal corner.

If you use a 900 degree wheel it's incredibly obvious. Turn on the telemetry and you'll see what I mean.

You can have the wheel set to 900, yet you only need to use the first 270 degrees 90% of the time, even when drifting.

Next to the awful floaty physics, the steering buffer was the biggest drawback of the game, especially for wheel owners.

I dont have a Fanatec but I did notice the inconsistent rate that the telemetry wheel moves when you turn from lock to lock while sitting still when using the MS WRW. The wheel has a large dead zone at center. The on screen steering wheel doesnt move for the first 1 1/2" of travel, then as you continue turning it responds at a 1:1 raito then it speeds up towards the outter limits of travel. Also the physical wheel has quite a bit of travel left over even though the on screen wheel is at full lock.

I understand why Turn 10 made a one size fits all setting for the streering wheels, but I hope they don't do this in the next game. The Fanatic wheels should have no buffering what so ever in 900° mode, because you have 100% of the physical travel needed to accurately control a car. The WRW's and lesser wheels should still have that buffer to some degree to keep the cars controlable. With only 30% of the required degrees needed to accurately control the cars in game, the WRW would feel over boosted and uncontrolable.

 

[Delphic Reason]

I dont have a Fanatec but I did notice the inconsistent rate that the telemetry wheel moves when you turn from lock to lock while sitting still when using the MS WRW. The wheel has a large dead zone at center. The on screen steering wheel doesnt move for the first 1 1/2" of travel, then as you continue turning it responds at a 1:1 raito then it speeds up towards the outter limits of travel. Also the physical wheel has quite a bit of travel left over even though the on screen wheel is at full lock.

I understand why Turn 10 made a one size fits all setting for the streering wheels, but I hope they don't do this in the next game. The Fanatic wheels should have no buffering what so ever in 900° mode, because you have 100% of the physical travel needed to accurately control a car. The WRW's and lesser wheels should still have that buffer to some degree to keep the cars controlable. With only 30% of the required degrees needed to accurately control the cars in game, the WRW would feel over boosted and uncontrolable.

Well said.

It has nothing to do with the wheel (Fanatec or MS wheel). The steering buffer is part of the games physics (hence why it cannot be turned off). The issues the steering buffer creates are further exaggerated when using a 900 degree wheel. This is not up for debate. This a widely documented phenomena regarding FM3's physics system. There are tons of videos out there showing the wheel telemetry, along with a Fanatec (or MS) wheel, clearly detailing what the game is doing in response to the actual wheel movement. The first 270 degrees take care of a large percentage of the vehicles steering, and then as you get outside of that area (watch the telemetry) you see the on screen wheel slow down in relation to your Fanatec's movement. This makes it much easier to steer a car, using 900 degrees, and is much better for driving game novices (or Arcade-Only fans), as Turn 10 openly acknowledges was their goal, but it's hardly realistic, or accurate.

I'm telling you. Go turn on Forza 3, Fanatec users. Grab any car, and drive around a track (drifting will especially show this flaw) with the telemetry on. You can clearly see the on screen wheel jitter and jump around, not relative to your actual wheel movement (also obvious on replays if you watch the front wheels). This is the steering buffer trying to steer for you to varying degrees.

Myself (I've tested every Fanatec wheel out there, due to being a tester for them) and many others HAVE had this experience, and it is well documented on many forums.

The only thing I can think of (to explain why some of you either aren't having this experience, or don't notice it) is that maybe there has been an update since I last played Forza 3 (about a month and a half) that adjusted, or removed the steering buffer.

Beyond that, your guess is as good as mine...

 

[Spagetti69]

I think it was done for pad users, who make up 99% of users.
It found itself staying in the wheel configurations and here we are.

I really hope they sort it out.

Anyone tried a fanatec on Forza 2? Any better?

 

[-=DV=-]

I dont know mate I was testing with both live telemetry and replays like 6 months ago and I have never been able to recreate what is seen on some of the vids. I wasted days of my life trying to recreate it and was never able to. Thats how I came to the decision that it is easier to be quick on a pad than on a wheel. Because the assists are so pronounced on a pad and I could never find any trace of any while using my wheel.

 

[Dan_]

Advance tyre simulation would make this game a lot better than the competition, hopefully it will be launched soon.

 

[Dopplegagger]

I think it was done for pad users, who make up 99% of users.
It found itself staying in the wheel configurations and here we are.

I really hope they sort it out.

Anyone tried a fanatec on Forza 2? Any better?

There is a buffer for controllers. There is no doubt about that. But a while ago (Forza 2 was in development), Dan Greenawalt talked about how those buffers were removed when you are playing with a wheel due to the wheel having more control over the smallest adjustments. I believe his words were "with the wheel, those buffers are removed".

Apparently that is not the case. But here is something intresting...
Using the WRW with out any buffers what so ever would make the game just as frustrating. Take Race Pro for example. You can completely turn of all steering assists and reduce the dead zone to 0%. Try running a fast car using the WRW with the steering assists completely off. Forza with out those steering buffers would be the exact same way. It would be impossible to keep the car on center and while turning, the slightest movement would send your car spinning off into the weeds.

With the WRW, you need the assists. FWIU the Fanatec probably wasn't ready in time for Turn 10 to fully implement it, so it is restricted to the same restrictions that the MS wheel had.

 

[Lucas]

Fall 2011? A little soon, in my opinion. But I like what I'm hearing. 👍

 

[Delphic Reason]

Fall 2011? A little soon, in my opinion. But I like what I'm hearing. 👍

It does seem a bit soon, doesn't it?

I think M$ is pulling the reigns pretty hard. Hopefully the game doesn't suffer too much. Although, Forza 3 had quite a lot of bugs, so it's hard to get too excited.

If they fixed the online (more like Forza 2), and tightened up the physics (no more floaty sim-cade physics), then they'll have a winner.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Forza 3 bugs were actually pretty minimal. However, they still failed to add working dashboards to all the R series cars.

Forza can push forward faster because during the 2 year development time, they outsource some work as well.

Physics in any racer could always use work, but Forza 3 has them pretty dang good for a sim.

 

[Lucas]

It does seem a bit soon, doesn't it?

I think M$ is pulling the reigns pretty hard. Hopefully the game doesn't suffer too much. Although, Forza 3 had quite a lot of bugs, so it's hard to get too excited.

Agree. I'd rather have them work on the game for another year, making sure everything works how it is supposed to. A game free of bugs is a hard task, but as long as there are few bugs and absolutely no annoying/gamebreaker ones, I'm okay with it.

 

[Dopplegagger]

Forza 3 bugs were actually pretty minimal. However, they still failed to add working dashboards to all the R series cars.

Forza can push forward faster because during the 2 year development time, they outsource some work as well.

Physics in any racer could always use work, but Forza 3 has them pretty dang good for a sim.

Yes but, we really don't know how far Turn 10 had FM3 and what had to be removed in order for the game to make the ship date. Hell, they could have had the lighting system completely finished a few weeks after the paired down game went gold.

 

[Northstar]

Fall 2011? A little soon, in my opinion. But I like what I'm hearing. 👍

It's been every 2 years for a new one so Forza 4 is right on schedule to continue that trend.

 

[Imari]

Disclaimer: I have played FM3 once, with a pad, so I'm not speaking from experience here.

The first 270 degrees take care of a large percentage of the vehicles steering, and then as you get outside of that area (watch the telemetry) you see the on screen wheel slow down in relation to your Fanatec's movement.

This doesn't sound like a steering assist. This sounds like a non-linear steering response. Still annoying. Some people prefer the non-linearity, a lot don't.

I'm telling you. Go turn on Forza 3, Fanatec users. Grab any car, and drive around a track (drifting will especially show this flaw) with the telemetry on. You can clearly see the on screen wheel jitter and jump around, not relative to your actual wheel movement (also obvious on replays if you watch the front wheels).

That sounds like a steering assist. Chuck your car sideways and hold your wheel steady. If the telemetry shows substantial wheel jitter it's *probably* steering assist. I say probably because even when you're holding the wheel of a real car rock steady you expect some amount of jitter from the road surface.

 

[TRC GeorgiaDawg]

It does seem a bit soon, doesn't it?

I think M$ is pulling the reigns pretty hard. Hopefully the game doesn't suffer too much. Although, Forza 3 had quite a lot of bugs, so it's hard to get too excited.

If they fixed the online (more like Forza 2), and tightened up the physics (no more floaty sim-cade physics), then they'll have a winner.

Agreed, that if they tighten up the physics to more resemble RP or GT then they'll have a winner. Problem is, that's not going to happen. They're again going to talk the talk about being a serious sim. But history tells me that when the game actually comes out, it'll again be a game more focused on casual appeasing gimmicks like driving with Kinect, autobrake and thousands more layers so people's anime boobies can be more accurately done.

 

[Lain]

Agreed, that if they tighten up the physics to more resemble RP or GT then they'll have a winner. Problem is, that's not going to happen. They're again going to talk the talk about being a serious sim. But history tells me that when the game actually comes out, it'll again be a game more focused on casual appeasing gimmicks like driving with Kinect, autobrake and thousands more layers so people's anime boobies can be more accurately done.

Nothing wrong with anime boobies.

 

[infamousDee]

Agreed, that if they tighten up the physics to more resemble RP or GT then they'll have a winner. Problem is, that's not going to happen. They're again going to talk the talk about being a serious sim. But history tells me that when the game actually comes out, it'll again be a game more focused on casual appeasing gimmicks like driving with Kinect, autobrake and thousands more layers so people's anime boobies can be more accurately done.

Unfortunately, you could be right.

 

[deftonesmx17]

Agree. I'd rather have them work on the game for another year, making sure everything works how it is supposed to. A game free of bugs is a hard task, but as long as there are few bugs and absolutely no annoying/gamebreaker ones, I'm okay with it.

GT5 is proof that extra development time does not equate to a product where everything works how it is supposed to.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Agreed, that if they tighten up the physics to more resemble RP or GT then they'll have a winner. Problem is, that's not going to happen. They're again going to talk the talk about being a serious sim. But history tells me that when the game actually comes out, it'll again be a game more focused on casual appeasing gimmicks like driving with Kinect, autobrake and thousands more layers so people's anime boobies can be more accurately done.

Well hopefully they can match RP. I wouldn't want it to be like the GT5 physics though.

Luckily we don't have to worry about it being dumbed down casual, as every release has always continued to cater to the hardcore first, which is great. Not to mention, I would give my and your left nut to have a livery editor in every racing game. If they ever do RP2, I hope they add it.

Based on this, they clearly are focused on the sim fans, so that is pretty exciting.

 

[ChadSpeed]

The best part is Turn 10 communicates with us the whole way up to release. No deaf dumb and blind act like PD. I am really looking forward to Fm4, GT5 is getting boring quick, but it does keep getting better with every update, and should keep me busy until release.

 

[deftonesmx17]

^
Fully agree; I love developers who communicate to us about their upcoming product.

 

[Lucas]

GT5 is proof that extra development time does not equate to a product where everything works how it is supposed to.

Very true. But consider we are comparing Forza 4 (two years? one year?) to GT5 (5 years after the last game). GT5 failed pretty hard when it came to doing things the right way (IMO). It was its time to be released. One year can't really hurt Forza 4, I believe.

 

[cuco33]

GT5 is proof that extra development time does not equate to a product where everything works how it is supposed to.

Sorry but I disagree. Had PD stuck to only GT development, GT5 would be a better game (likewise GT PSP). Had they outsourced work, it would also be a better game. Had they not had Sony's influence (i.e. 3D) as much as they did, it would be a better game. PD/Kaz were side tracked with a lot of projects not directly related to GT5 development and they never grew their team nor outsourced work. Things like 4K tech demos, numerous body kit designs (Opera Z, Nismo Z), GT-R HUD design, prototype car designs (X1, Citroen GT), auto demo vids (Mazda/Nissan, Merc Benz), etc.. even Kaz's 24hr 'ring endeavor during 'critical debug time' had to have impacted the end product in a more negative way than positive. That's my opinion though. Many have disagreed but the writing is on the wall.

 

[cuco33]

The best part is Turn 10 communicates with us the whole way up to release. No deaf dumb and blind act like PD. I am really looking forward to Fm4, GT5 is getting boring quick, but it does keep getting better with every update, and should keep me busy until release.

I love that about T10. But I have to admit I really don't like some of their promo guys, like Che. They post on NeoGAF forums far more than they do on their own official website. That right there is blasphemy. It's one thing to be super quiet like PD but it's another to actively be part of online communities where the biggest emphasis is a fanboiz site like the 'gaf and neglecting your own community.

Landin posted on a car forum I'm on during FM3 development and a lot of people were excited since they were asking us, the car guys who are also gamers, what things they'd like. He barely replied after and their main focus then turned to NeoGAF forums.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Fall 2011? A little soon, in my opinion. But I like what I'm hearing. 👍

I hope they take their time and delay it until 2012. There is no reason to be in a hurry with Forza 4.

I posted my list of wants for F4 but I really want to at least see the weather from PGR4 in Forza 4. Water running and dripping off the cars was amazing. Plus the water puddles and snow drifts truly effected the physics. Nothing touches the weather effects in PGR4. Thats one thing that game perfected. I want that in F4.

 

[deftonesmx17]

I hope they take their time and delay it until 2012. There is no reason to be in a hurry with Forza 4.

I posted my list of wants for F4 but I really want to at least see the weather from PGR4 in Forza 4. Water running and dripping off the cars was amazing. Plus the water puddles and snow drifts truly effected the physics. Nothing touches the weather effects in PGR4. Thats one thing that game perfected. I want that in F4.

I must ask, have you played F1 2010? It surely has better weather effects than PGR.

Sorry but I disagree. Had PD stuck to only GT development, GT5 would be a better game (likewise GT PSP). Had they outsourced work, it would also be a better game. Had they not had Sony's influence (i.e. 3D) as much as they did, it would be a better game. PD/Kaz were side tracked with a lot of projects not directly related to GT5 development and they never grew their team nor outsourced work. Things like 4K tech demos, numerous body kit designs (Opera Z, Nismo Z), GT-R HUD design, prototype car designs (X1, Citroen GT), auto demo vids (Mazda/Nissan, Merc Benz), etc.. even Kaz's 24hr 'ring endeavor during 'critical debug time' had to have impacted the end product in a more negative way than positive. That's my opinion though. Many have disagreed but the writing is on the wall.

The writing on the wall is mismanagement; nothing more, nothing less. If you're a business man and do not devote the proper time to your business, there is no excuse when the end product of your business turns out poorly. Thus I must ask, why do you find it acceptable to give excuses to Kaz (a business man) and PD (a business)?

Blaming GT PSP and 3D is elementary. Blaming Sony is not a good reason either. Microsoft influenced Turn10 in regards to FM3 and pushed for early release. FM3 still felt like a finished product even in light of this and it's short development time.

 

[cuco33]

I
The writing on the wall is mismanagement; nothing more, nothing less. If you're a business man and do not devote the proper time to your business, there is no excuse when the end product of your business turns out poorly. Thus I must ask, why do you find it acceptable to give excuses to Kaz (a business man) and PD (a business)?

Blaming GT PSP and 3D is elementary. Blaming Sony is not a good reason either. Microsoft influenced Turn10 in regards to FM3 and pushed for early release. FM3 still felt like a finished product even in light of this and it's short development time.

Mismanagement is exactly what I'm getting at. Had PD grown their dev team, it's part of managing. Had they outsourced work, it's part of managing.
I'm not giving excuses to either/or. I saw this happening during development with all of what PD was working on outside of GT. A lot of what was hoped and mentioned for GT5P never saw the light of day (damage, online lobbies). Then GT PSP was launched and it's OK but not great (lack of career completely killed it for me). I saw GT5 bound to have some type of issues and it was just a matter of time. Soon as we found out the car disparity existed... it was all the proof I needed. All the bugs/glitches post launch just added to it.

Personally I think Sony pushed 3D onto PD, so they are to blame as well because the same dev team working on GT5 had to implement 3D. I highly doubt it was Kaz who said 'let's put 3D in!' when S3D was still VERY new to the world. I think Sony was the ones who pushed them into 4k tech demos, promoting Sony's hardware with their biggest software franchise. I do agree that MS influenced T10 a bit. I mean FM3 could have had a little more polish had T10 not been bound to a deadline. It would have launched with cockpits already without a patch opening them up. FM4 is set to have Kinect, and I doubt that T10 said 'let's turn our sim into pure arcade mode with Kinect!' There's only so much you can blame the hardware manufacturer though, because PD's own website lists a lot of side projects for the auto industry that isn't related to GT's actual development, and the state of GT5 is thanks to mismanagement.

 

[deftonesmx17]

Glad we can agree:tup:

As for Kinect, I actually bet T10 was excited to do something with it. Look at all the home "hackers" who came out of the woodwork and got excited about it right off the bat. It's been awhile since a piece of gaming hardware was so accepted by home developers, so I would assume professional ones are just as excited to test things out.