Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[Ridox2JZGTE]

No. They aren't real. Nothing that happens on the panel in front of me is real.

The purpose of playing an anything game is recreation - fun. If it's stressing you out, it's not fun.

Then I guess everyone feels differently towards the game that they play, I've been enjoying playing games since the days of Nintendo. Frustration, excitement, joy, anger, tension, anxiety, fear, madness and so many other feelings that I have felt, I loved playing games, any genre, racing, flight sim- Jane's comes to mind, RPG, survival, horror, war, FPS, puzzle etc. Anything that can be enjoyed from a game is fun.

I don't mind the stress and anxiety when waiting for my tangos to come up when I am a sniper in a war game, the tension and excitement of dropping my JDAM payload on ground targets from my F15E sim, the fear for the those lurkers in the dark in a survival game like Dead Space, the tension and excitement when driving side by side at the Ring without any assists in a RUF Yellow Bird with comfort medium, the stress and frustration of playing mind breaking puzzles like echochrome.

Those games I played are virtual reality, they may not real as they only appear on screen, but my experience of playing them are ... and that's what counts. When I am playing GT5, I always drive like I would in real life, clean, fair, cautious, caring for my car, others, and have fun at the same time. It would be fun if we can race someday Famine

 

[Samus]

Like I said earlier it's not just about straight up fear, it's about confidence in your car as well. Take Eau Rouge at Spa for example, many drivers can attack it without fear but without total confidence in the car they'll lift or slow down more than they might need to.

In a game that doesn't exist, at least in time trial/time attack mode. You can attack the corner as hard as you like, if you have given it too much you might miss the corner, spin or crash. But no matter, you just drive off. Real drivers don't have that luxury so have to back off.

 

[Famine]

I think you can considering the level of fear factor is very little in both cases

No. It's none at all in one case.

The Mercedes Live race was recently a comparison, reality was faster (Even on damp track which was sort of equalised with small corner cuts by DC ) but in hands of a top GT5 driver, virtual would have been faster due to being set on ideal conditions and being able to set more laps in them conditions. If DC did a lap in more ideal conditions without corner cutting then, he might be within the +-1% of lap time of the fastest GT5 driver in the same period of time and it will be a more like for like comparison then.

Reality was faster after they nerfed the tyres. The SH tyres supposed to be used for the event were proving 5s a lap faster than Coulthard, even though the gamers were limited by a cone alley and red times for taking his lines...

Then I guess everyone feels differently towards the game that they play, I've been enjoying playing games since the days of Nintendo. Frustration, excitement, joy, anger, tension, anxiety, fear, madness and so many other feelings that I have felt, I loved playing games, any genre, racing, flight sim- Jane's comes to mind, RPG, survival, horror, war, FPS, puzzle etc. Anything that can be enjoyed from a game is fun.

I don't mind the stress and anxiety when waiting for my tangos to come up when I am a sniper in a war game, the tension and excitement of dropping my JDAM payload on ground targets from my F15E sim, the fear for the those lurkers in the dark in a survival game like Dead Space, the tension and excitement when driving side by side at the Ring without any assists in a RUF Yellow Bird with comfort medium, the stress and frustration of playing mind breaking puzzles like echochrome.

Those games I played are virtual reality, they may not real as they only appear on screen, but my experience of playing them are ... and that's what counts. When I am playing GT5, I always drive like I would in real life, clean, fair, cautious, caring for my car, others, and have fun at the same time. It would be fun if we can race someday Famine

Since the days of the ZX Spectrum here. But ultimately nothing on that screen matters - it shouldn't be capable of causing you fear.

Games are meant to be fun. I don't drive like a nob online because no-one else will have fun if I do and then I'll have no-one to race - which isn't fun either.

Like I said earlier it's not just about straight up fear, it's about confidence in your car as well. Take Eau Rouge at Spa for example, many drivers can attack it without fear but without total confidence in the car they'll lift or slow down more than they might need to.

In a game that doesn't exist, at least in time trial/time attack mode. You can attack the corner as hard as you like, if you have given it too much you might miss the corner, spin or crash. But no matter, you just drive off. Real drivers don't have that luxury so have to back off.

This.

 

[Zer0]

You are right, but for example when im racing in the VLN at the Nurburgring GP and Nordschleife, around the GP circuit everyones pushing 105% but as soon as we enter the nordschleife is down to 95% since one mistake will cost your entire race on the Ring.

When Im racing in the carrera cup on "regular" tracks such as hockenheim or magny cours, its always a 105 % pushing.

Great info 👍

I think that this pretty much confirms that a lap made with a record in mind by a very top driver could be made with a fear factor very close to what you can theorically achieve in GT5 playing with damage on, tyre wear, steering wheel, etc.. to equal things the most possible. So the top virtual and real laps could be one of the valid points comparisons of the accuracy of that simulation.

For example, how much far can you go than this is in a realistic sim? whatch till the end.




This is another example of pushing the car over its limits, no record intended but a great example of no fear.

 

[Spagetti69]

Since the days of the ZX Spectrum here.

HO HO, some frustration there. 7 minutes for the hobbit to load and "read poke error goto print $.

C64 for me BTW.

 

[TakumiFuji01]

After reading about fear in driving on real life and sim ... in my view, everybody have one, we always feel the fear, no matter how tiny or big ... what matters most is what aspect of driving that contributes to the fear itself. We can't just limit that fear predominantly happened in the track, most of us drove our cars on the road, fear does also occur there as well as in virtual environments.

From my experience of driving more than 15 years in real life, what we fear most is the unknown factors, the unknown characteristic of the car we never driven before, the unknown corners that we never encounter, the unknown hazard that lies ahead in the middle of the foggy night, the unthinkable that might happen to our car when its driven to its limit in the heavy rain on a bumpy road, the lack of confidence when driving on a unfamiliar track or road, and so many more factor that might contributes to our feeling of fear and uncertainty.

Most of us get used to it, adapt, learn and overcome those feelings. Some crazy enough to ignore it, and drive like a mad man bat out of hell. Sometimes I tempted the fate itself, this happened to me once, driving on speed limited highway at more than 200km/h in the rain, granted I was scared driving on the limit at such weather, but I was so excited with the booming sounds of my exhaust and engine revving to the limit, I was intoxicated ... I did not know I got over the 200 km/h on the speedo until the car aquaplaned and the rear tires lost traction and I almost lost it before I eased on the gas, corrected the car and my friend sitting next to me said, that was scary as hell to have the back end slides in the rain.

One thing I learned that day, we can always overcome our fear, it depends on each person, while surviving driving on the limits in any car or road or track is another matter, so many factors involved there, driving skills, reflexes, car condition, road condition, luck, even what pushes me that moment to drive faster also a factor. If it was a race where it's do or die, I would give everything in my self and my car, forget everything else Maybe that's how some insanely fast driver do, motivate themselves with such mindset, who knows ...forget the fear if that's even possible.

To this day, I am still amazed by this man, The Drift King, how can he drive like that ....

The very first video of the Drift King Keiichi Tsuchiya back in 1987
Filmed on an open mountain road at Usui, this video is a perfect demo of his drifting skills on his AE86 and maybe lack of fear.
After this video,the Drift King had his racing licence retired by the JAF (Japan Automobile Federation) because of this dangerous driving on the road.



this ..



and the race ... much more exciting than F1



Maybe we should ask Dori Dori himself, did he felt any fear when driving like that on the video ? does fear affect his lap times ? if so how much, a tenth, a second ?...

Haha who wouldn't forget about Dori Dori's driving?? The Streets that what makes Keiichi become the best race we know today

 

[BlisteredHand]

I think although rare, ultimately a real car and driver can be faster than a sim driver. Down to emotions, and adrenaline etc. But it would have to be a perfect storm of factors. And the driver would have to be in such a zone of emotion, perhaps even suicidal and wanting to kill him/herself, the rage of existence and of not wanting anything other than to be faster and faster until death. The times would show themselves and compare faster to anything a sim driver could ever achieve?
Maybe, just an idea.
Fear of death is not a factor when you would welcome it or not care due to rage.
We know this can happen to emotions as people murder each other using emotion even if they have the knowledge that they themselves will die because of it, due to scenario or state capital punishment etc.
The extreme emotion in this sense would create a zone of focus, ability and processing powers beyond normal. Which I suggest a more calmer sim driver could not access perhaps.
The fastest way around a track can be found mathematically by a computer, the fastest processing computer wins. This is the same as human drivers.
I suppose you could make a sim driver faster by injecting them with various chemicals to replicate an extreme heightened state in order to function better. This way they could keep performing for faster times longer as they would not have died..

 

[Tornado]

So the top virtual and real laps could be one of the valid points comparisons of the accuracy of that simulation.

No, even if the fear aspect was somehow invalidated like you are acting it is, lap times as a means of comparison still assume so many things that they are pretty much meaningless. Considering you brought up the ability to match lap times in GT4 on the last page despite the massive and at times obvious problems with that game's physics, one would assume you would already know this (because that alone tells you that using such a tool as a measurement is useless).

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Like I said earlier it's not just about straight up fear, it's about confidence in your car as well. Take Eau Rouge at Spa for example, many drivers can attack it without fear but without total confidence in the car they'll lift or slow down more than they might need to.

In a game that doesn't exist, at least in time trial/time attack mode. You can attack the corner as hard as you like, if you have given it too much you might miss the corner, spin or crash. But no matter, you just drive off. Real drivers don't have that luxury so have to back off.

GT5 no doubt, you can build up confidence quicker, but we are comparing when confidence is built up, fastest qualifying style laps done by the best drivers in the world.

Race pace wise, techniques to be consistent in real world translates to virtual world. You don't 100% risk on every corner, you just drive within the safe and fast limit.

No. It's none at all in one case.



Reality was faster after they nerfed the tyres. The SH tyres supposed to be used for the event were proving 5s a lap faster than Coulthard, even though the gamers were limited by a cone alley and red times for taking his lines...

Generally the fear is messing up your lap. Something like the Mercedes Live race, you have pressure also to not mess up in same period of time as real world driver.

I think biggest fear for top racing drivers is driving over the limit and losing time, not really too worried about going into a wall as the approach to corners is such that with exits you have that fine margin to play with. This approach I also use in virtual world and is generally the most fastest and consistent way of driving.

If fear was much of a factor, do you think here Vettel will activate DRS so early after driving so close to the wall and still attacking the race track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6jxsXr-oqU&t=1m33s

He stays on it as he knows its an all out qualifying lap and has confidence in the car.

About that tyres, they just went from SH to CS to try and equalize grip levels as much as possible, DC was sandbagging a bit I reckon but anyway it is fair in that DC was on a damp track in the end. I doubt 5 seconds or more is the gap between the tyres if that is what you are suggesting in GT5. Online at the time was over a second faster in the same period of time from what I remember.

 

[Famine]

Generally the fear is messing up your lap.

How scary. Why does it matter again?

If fear was much of a factor, do you think here Vettel will activate DRS so early after driving so close to the wall and still attacking the race track.

Okay... you're still on some bizarre alternate track... no-one's saying racing drivers are scared of crashing. In fact everyone is saying they're less scared of crashing than less able drivers, but virtual drives are not scared of crashing because there is no physical consequence for doing so.

Real racing drivers have very little fear.
Virtual racing drivers have no fear.

They aren't comparable things because one has a small fear component and one has absolutely no fear component at all.

About that tyres, they just went from SH to CS to try and equalize grip levels as much as possible

No, it was for times. The gamers were unexpectedly fast - they would have all caned Coulthard.

DC was sandbagging a bit I reckon

Hardly. His laptime (1'16.3) is within sensible margins of The Stig's time (1'19.6) once the standing start is taken into account - and the Stig was using a dry track, but in the slightly slower Roadster.

And then he span.

but anyway it is fair in that DC was on a damp track in the end. I doubt 5 seconds or more is the gap between the tyres if that is what you are suggesting in GT5. Online at the time was over a second faster in the same period of time from what I remember.

The gamers were doing 1'12s the previous day.

 

[Samus]

GT5 no doubt, you can build up confidence quicker, but we are comparing when confidence is built up, fastest qualifying style laps done by the best drivers in the world.

Yes, F1 drivers still have confidence lifts in ultimate qualifying laps.

 

[Famine]

Especially if they're Marussia drivers

 

[Samus]

Here is one example I found but there are plenty of others:



He has a little lift in turn 8, 50 second mark. In a game you would go full throttle without a care in the world.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

How scary. Why does it matter again?

It matters as its costs you positions.

That is why it is good to have a banker lap and on an all out lap, if you nail it, you don't usually gain that much, a few tenths at best unless your banker lap was very poor.

Okay... you're still on some bizarre alternate track... no-one's saying racing drivers are scared of crashing. In fact everyone is saying they're less scared of crashing than less able drivers, but virtual drives are not scared of crashing because there is no physical consequence for doing so.

Real racing drivers have very little fear.
Virtual racing drivers have no fear.

They aren't comparable things because one has a small fear component and one has absolutely no fear component at all.

We are comparing lap times of virtual and real. The difference in fear levels are negligible I would say in terms of how much it affects the driver to go fast. Other factors such as the setup of the car and track condition are more important when trying to compare as well as driver level. You can get good comparisons if you take these factors into account.

Anyway GT5 as a simulation is close on this but also very far out at the same time as there is still a lot to improve to detail the real time physics to make subtleties of a car’s handling more accurate and also to model active aero and other stuff better. There won’t be huge differences between GT5 and future iterations of GT games in 10-15 years time regarding ideal conditions lap time but in variable conditions it will be more life like and things like brake fade might help realism and also getting things like tyres and brakes up to temperature which would make something like the Mercedes Live race much more realistic for gamers about what real world drivers have to deal with.

No, it was for times. The gamers were unexpectedly fast - they would have all caned Coulthard.

Obviously it is for times. Times are affected by grip levels. Gamers had too much grip compared to DC.

Hardly. His laptime (1'16.3) is within sensible margins of The Stig's time (1'19.6) once the standing start is taken into account - and the Stig was using a dry track, but in the slightly slower Roadster.

And then he span.

When I mean sandbagging, I mean the laps in practice he did were off the pace by quite a bit from what I remember. He only really did one lap which was quite a bit quicker than his rest and not in the best conditions as he probably hoped Sony to do an offset more in his favour earlier in the day.

The gamers were doing 1'12s the previous day.

I don't think any of the gamers were allowed to use the racing pods on the previous day. I think it was all hearsay the 1’12s and the fastest lap on SH was in the high 1’14s from what I remember. Synwraith will probably know exact details.

Yes, F1 drivers still have confidence lifts in ultimate qualifying laps.

Confidence lifts like the example you showed is done all the time in GT5, letting the car roll is quite a fast way, using momentum is rewarded quite heavily and I think this is one thing they have to try and reduce in future iterations. Massa lifting is normal as they struggling with understeer through that corner, if he tried it flat he would go off the track. Simple as that. F2007 with race fuel onboard going flat in turn 8 is very optimistic if confidence is the only thing lacking. Only the RB6 has gone flat there I think without race fuel. Driving to the car limits is not really confidence lifting as they would have tried it beforehand the limits, it is lifting to drive to car limits.

 

[Famine]

It matters as its costs you positions.

Oh no. Imagine losing positions! In a game! I'm so frightened my hair might fall out.

Sorry, it matters why? Why is losing positions something to be scared of to generate fear?

The difference in fear levels are negligible I would say in terms of how much it affects the driver to go fast.

I'm going to try this again in different terms...

The difference between a small amount of something and another small amount of something is negligible. The difference between a small amount of something and nothing at all is colossal. It's so big as to render any comparison using that thing irrelevant.

Other factors such as the setup of the car and track condition are more important when trying to compare as well as driver level. You can get good comparisons if you take these factors into account.

All irrelevant. In a driving game you can set your track condition however you like it and your car condition is always brand new, unless you choose otherwise. If you have the same driver on the same track in the same car, even with a 100% faithful to reality simulator, the virtual driver will be faster because he will not die or destroy hundreds of thousands of pounds of someone else's car if he overcooks it.

Obviously it is for times. Times are affected by grip levels. Gamers had too much grip compared to DC.

And now we're back to what tyres simulate and how.

Of course what you haven't noted is that when switched to CSs, the gamers had too little grip compared to DC and, well would you look at that, the fastest virtual guy with no racing experience whatsoever was a half a second slower than the professional DTM and ex-F1 driver was in a grippier car.

You should be wondering why a racing nobody (no offence, Jason) can do that in a fifteen minute head-to-head (he may have gone better without Legard distracting him). Was it ability? Was it that Mercedes sent over a ropey car? Was it the track conditions (Coulthard's fastest was in fact his first full speed run in the dry)? Or was it some other factor that meant a real driver at real risk with more grip was barely faster than a guy driving a screen indoors?

Of course after the event was opened, the "aliens" went out straight into 1'14s.

When I mean sandbagging, I mean the laps in practice he did were off the pace by quite a bit from what I remember. He only really did one lap which was quite a bit quicker than his rest and not in the best conditions as he probably hoped Sony to do an offset more in his favour earlier in the day.

He was doing 1'20s in practice the previous day. For the event he did a 1'16.3 on his first flying lap - in the dry - but then either lost the tyres or the brakes and couldn't match that. Then it rained. Then he span it trying too hard.

I don't think any of the gamers were allowed to use the racing pods on the previous day. I think it was all hearsay the 1’12s and the fastest lap on SH was in the high 1’14s from what I remember. Synwraith will probably know exact details.

Alternatively daan will, since he was giving us live reports and was one of the celebrity drivers. And posted this thread.

They raced against each other in the pods the previous day - on Sport Hards - to get down to the final six. The regular 1'14s and better from the lead six - compared to the 1'20s from Coulthard - were what prompted the tyre change to CS, and even then the gamers got to within half a second despite the grip disadvantage.


Why? No consequences.

 

[Zer0]

No, even if the fear aspect was somehow invalidated like you are acting it is, lap times as a means of comparison still assume so many things that they are pretty much meaningless. Considering you brought up the ability to match lap times in GT4 on the last page despite the massive and at times obvious problems with that game's physics, one would assume you would already know this (because that alone tells you that using such a tool as a measurement is useless).

Yes. Your error is to assume that until you have a perfect physical simulation of every minor real-life detail you can't validate a matching lap time, even if the result realized match the performance, driver inputs and car behaviour. A perfect physical model will never happen, you would need a supercomputer just to analize accurately the car aerodynamics in real time, but every good sim needs to match their times with its limited technology as a proof that is doing the things right. The car telemetry is a developers reference. Can be done filling the physics holes with pregrabed data or asuming an artificially value for the rest of the non computed paramethers. Some minnor aspects don't even make great differences in the simulation or lap times so are ignored.

The thing is that the result worked as expected given the inputs and conditions, and that is all what we need to know as a players. Neither you or I know how works the inside physics of GT5.

GT4 had a good car performance simulatión, aside of some weak physics aspects, so with that alone and accurately scaled tracks matching lap times can be realistically achieved. Specially if driving smooth is a must.

 

[Spagetti69]

Needs a title change here.

Forza and GT vs real life. Who will win in this deadly duel off. Real life or games.

Let the battle commence.

 

[Famine]

Needs a title change here.

Forza and GT vs real life. Who will win in this deadly duel off. Real life or games.

Let the battle commence.

Games.

It was a deadly duel, but in the game I had another life left.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

Here is one example I found but there are plenty of others:



He has a little lift in turn 8, 50 second mark. In a game you would go full throttle without a care in the world.

I highly doubt this. Yes, the F2007 and F10 are way to fast (just look at the times from the recent Monaco TT Event) in this game, but taking the T8 at Istanbul full throttle?

Doubt this. Maybe with maxed out downforce (I seriously hope they change this soon) and racing softs it could be possible to take this corner full throttle if you were on the ideal line...

But neither you nor me have a proof for this.

 

[Spagetti69]

That's quite a quote there. Very witty.

 

[Tornado]

Yes. Your error is to assume that until you have a perfect physical simulation of every minor real-life detail you can't validate a matching lap time, even if the result realized match the performance, driver inputs and car behaviour.

No. Your error, that you keep making to the point of outright ignoring problems with it that people point with the measure, is to assume that matching laptimes is in any way indicative of simulation accuracy by itself when the only thing it is indicative of is that you can match lap times. If we had detailed information of the ins and outs of how GT5's physics engine worked, and if we were able to compare them to real life telemetry (inputs, car behavior, etc.) in a matched lap? Sure. We could make a conclusion then. But since we don't, it is completely meaningless. Because, again, if you can match a time in GT4 and then match that time in GT5 (pre-2.0 and post-2.0), the logical conclusion based on that is that GT5's physics are no better now than they were at launch; nor are they any better than they were in GT4. And all of that is ignoring the fear aspect, which is still very much an issue in real life even if you refuse to acknowledge it.





You can match lap times in any game; and it's about as relevant to this thread purview as saying GT5 has better physics because it sold better.

 

[Samus]

I highly doubt this. Yes, the F2007 and F10 are way to fast (just look at the times from the recent Monaco TT Event) in this game, but taking the T8 at Istanbul full throttle?

Doubt this. Maybe with maxed out downforce (I seriously hope they change this soon) and racing softs it could be possible to take this corner full throttle if you were on the ideal line...

But neither you nor me have a proof for this.

I'm not saying it would be possible, what I'm saying is you could TRY it in a simulator without a problem, but Massa in this case didn't have the confidence to try because if it didn't work chances are he would have a monumental accident.

Like you say we don't know if it would be possible, Massa might have tried it and spun/crashed. We'll never know because he and the other drivers didn't have the confidence in the car to try. We could find out within five minutes in GT5, if we had that track.

 

[Zer0]

No. Your error, that you keep making to the point of outright ignoring problems with it that people point out, is to assume that matching laptimes is in any way indicative of simulation accuracy by itself when the only thing it is indicative of is that you can match lap times. If we had detailed information of the ins and outs of how GT5's physics engine worked, to compare to real life telemetry (inputs, car behavior, etc.)? Sure. We could make a conclusion then. But since we don't, it is completely meaningless.



You can match lap times in any game. It doesn't mean anything beyond that you can match lap times; and it's about as relevant to this thread purview as saying GT5 has better physics because it sold better.

Matching lap times in a sim is ONE of the points indicative of the simulation accuracy. Lap matching alone don't make simulators. The most precise driving simulator in the world would need to match lap times the close as possible given the same driver inputs.

You are ignoring that fact when in a sim having that accuracy is a must. In an arcade like PGR means nothing because their cars don't are intended to drive like in real life neither can be driven with realistics inputs or have a realistic performance. Also the tracks are unrealistically modeled, distances scaled and speed altered to match the intended fast paced fun gameplay.

I made my conclusión given the game facts, you are entitled to not agree and keep thinking that a lap matching means nothing in a sim. Just don't expect that I agree with that view because as a not conclusive opinion I do not agree.

 

[Samus]

Well GT5 isn't an accurate simulator then, because you can comfortably beat pretty much any real world time in the game.

 

[Zer0]

Well GT5 isn't an accurate simulator then, because you can comfortably beat pretty much any real world time in the game.

Also with any sim if you mount gripy tyres than the ones used in the real life comparisson.

 

[Samus]

Also with any sim if you mount gripy tyres than the ones used in the real life comparisson.

But this comes back around to the other discussion. The tyres in GT5 do not have any relation to the real world, so how do you know if the tyres are too grippy or if there are other reasons people are going faster?

Which all comes full circle to the same underlying point, because of so many anomalies it's not possible to effectively use lap times to accurately measure the quality of a sim.

 

[Zer0]

But this comes back around to the other discussion. The tyres in GT5 do not have any relation to the real world, so how do you know if the tyres are too grippy or if there are other reasons people are going faster?

Which all comes full circle to the same underlying point, because of so many anomalies it's not possible to effectively use lap times to accurately measure the quality of a sim.

Playing the game and comparing lap times with different tyres, reading what PD has said about the subject with previous real life comparisons, looking at the GT Academy tyre selection, looking at tests made by users on this forum, reading opinions from pro drivers that tried the same in the game, etc...

To anyone interested there are many resources to know what tyre performs more accurately with the car, lap time and handling, usually one-two grades below than the game stock tyres.

 

[Samus]

But surely the tyres PD fit to cars as standard are the tyres they believe are closest to the real world standard? How can you know that the simulation is perfect and the tyres are too grippy when it could be that the simulation isn't perfect but the tyres are just right?

Like I said, there are too many anomalies to draw anything at all from lap times.

 

[JDMKING13]

But surely the tyres PD fit to cars as standard are the tyres they believe are closest to the real world standard? How can you know that the simulation is perfect and the tyres are too grippy when it could be that the simulation isn't perfect but the tyres are just right?

Like I said, there are too many anomalies to draw anything at all from lap times.

That's not true dude and if you played GT5P you would know this. The manual gave you the tires to correspond to stock tires on each specific vehicle @ Zero agree with you 100%

 

[Samus]

What about the GTR record trophy then? Does that have the right tyres on? If they are, how come we can beat the official time? If they're not, what should they be and how much slower will that make our lap?