Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[DaveS1138]

I can't really agree that "lack of fear" would swing lap times either way and I'm not aware of any studies or experiments that would allow for drawing such a conclusion.

If you watch the comparisson that Top Gear did with Jerremy Clarckson racing a NSX in GT4 vs real life at Leguna Seca he does list one of the big reasons he couldn't match his in game time in real life being the fear factor. In the game he could brake at the last second heading up the hill to the corckscrew whilst in real life no matter how hard he tried the fear of not being able to see the turn would always make him lift off.

Maybe not a perfect example and there were certainly other reasons he couldn't match the time in game but he specifically mentions fear as being a factor.

 

[Exorcet]

If you watch the comparisson that Top Gear did with Jerremy Clarckson racing a NSX in GT4 vs real life at Leguna Seca he does list one of the big reasons he couldn't match his in game time in real life being the fear factor. In the game he could brake at the last second heading up the hill to the corckscrew whilst in real life no matter how hard he tried the fear of not being able to see the turn would always make him lift off.

Maybe not a perfect example and there were certainly other reasons he couldn't match the time in game but he specifically mentions fear as being a factor.

Not to sound harsh or anything, but I hate that comparison. From what I remember, Clarkson didn't have much criticism of GT4, yet the game had some serious flaws. Certainly, it was less realistic than GT5.

A lot of the game vs reality reviews that I've read/watch don't strike me as being truly objective and scientific. They're either marketing hype, or seem to be aimed at less knowledgeable players or potential players.

Anyway, I've never liked the "lack of fear" explanation. Personally, I don't drive virtually without fear. Sure, I know I can't die, but I still worry about damage to my car (if damage is present) or just going off track or crashing into others. Maybe it's me, but I can't go 110% in a sim without worrying a bit.

Using my limited FSAE autocross outings as a reference, the difference in fear between reality and virtual reality doesn't seem to be there. I think I might have actually felt more confident in the real car because I could feel what was going on, but admittedly, there are a lot of variables at work in this comparison.

I won't dismiss the fear factor outright, just as I've never seen it proven I can't disprove it without significant effort. However, I don't like to take it into consideration when comparing game to real life. All of that said though, lap times are only so helpful in evaluating sims. Lap times can even be troublesome when comparing two real cars.

 

[ItsHim]

Well scientific study of sim racing is not exactly prolific however numerous articles on comparisons mention it, in fact its the single most common trend in them.

So it's an assumption. I do not dispute RL temperature changes and general limitations of physics engines in sims making lap times comparisons potentially flawed, as this can be proven by scientific means. But until someone doesn't do any scientific research, the "fear of death" factor remains an assumption.

The Simraceway piece in a recent copy of Evo (mentioned above) covers it consistently, describing braking later in the sim, taking corners flat out rather than lifting, etc. All because the consequences for failure in a sim are nothing more than a restart, in reality its at best damage to a car and at worst damage to a car and yourself.

Yet, there are still individuals who put these concerns aside because winning means so much to them. Thankfully, fatal accidents have become less and less in motorsport.

Now this is going to make me unpopular with some, and while I can't remember the F1 driver who said this, he was of the opinion that Senna could have lifted and maybe avoided the fatal crash. But Senna wasn't really that kind of person, but was constantly stepping over the line, no matter how gifted he was.

Martin Brundle mentioned in a piece he did with Chris Harris that in rain, he was afraid to lift off even if he could barely see a thing, because he was afraid others might crash into the back of him so he kept going.

Now take that to its logical next step and compare a track to a sim. If you feel more comfortable on a track in comparison to the public road woudl you not then logically feel even more comfortable to push a car when no risk at all was involved (a sim)?

I'm not quite sure that's the way it goes.

Maybe I'm ignorant as to what can go wrong on a rather safe track like the Nürburgring GP or indeed an airfield in the UK, but if I chose to track a car I imagine I better be prepared to pay the expenses. This is including tyres, brake pads and discs, petrol, fees, insurances and recovery. Otherwise it probably isn't a good idea to track a car in the first place.

You seem to be saying that you would take exactly the same level of risk on the real 'ring as you would on a virtual 'ring, and that to be blunt I do not believe for a second.

You don't have to as I was referring to the GP course of the Nürburgring, not the Nordschleife.

I still don't feel "risk of death" is a valid variable to differing laptimes. I'm no racing driver. There are tracks I don't need to be one and thus I should be able to replicate my laptimes in the game and in reality within reasonable boundaries. I can't drive an LMP in the game, thus I never would attempt to do this in reality.

 

[Scaff]

So it's an assumption. I do not dispute RL temperature changes and general limitations of physics engines in sims making lap times comparisons potentially flawed, as this can be proven by scientific means. But until someone doesn't do any scientific research, the "fear of death" factor remains an assumption.

No its not an assumption, its an observation based on both every comparison I have read in regard to sim vs real laps, and my own experience in that regard.

Yet, there are still individuals who put these concerns aside because winning means so much to them. Thankfully, fatal accidents have become less and less in motorsport.

Now this is going to make me unpopular with some, and while I can't remember the F1 driver who said this, he was of the opinion that Senna could have lifted and maybe avoided the fatal crash. But Senna wasn't really that kind of person, but was constantly stepping over the line, no matter how gifted he was.

Martin Brundle mentioned in a piece he did with Chris Harris that in rain, he was afraid to lift off even if he could barely see a thing, because he was afraid others might crash into the back of him so he kept going.

Fatal and serious accidents still occur and the reduction in them is mainly down to improved safety standards more than anything, however 'fear' of an incident and throwing away a race does most certainly exist and I don't personally think you can simply dismiss it in the manner you are.

I'm not quite sure that's the way it goes.

Why?

Maybe I'm ignorant as to what can go wrong on a rather safe track like the Nürburgring GP or indeed an airfield in the UK, but if I chose to track a car I imagine I better be prepared to pay the expenses. This is including tyres, brake pads and discs, petrol, fees, insurances and recovery. Otherwise it probably isn't a good idea to track a car in the first place.

Even the safest of tracks still poses a risk, you can minimise it all you want it still happens. I wrote a car off following an incident at a proving ground. Huge grass run-off areas, which were more than enough to destroy the suspension (and would have had almost zero effect in either GT5 or FM4).

You also seem to be hugely unaware of the forces acting on a real car that we don't have to worry about in a sim, I've pulled a tyre off the rim of a Clio at a proving ground and my old boss rolled a 406 after the wheel dug into the grass run-off following a very minor incident at speed (that soon got far from minor).

You don't have to as I was referring to the GP course of the Nürburgring, not the Nordschleife.

And? The point you are making is that 'fear' is not a valid variable, a point that you are applying globally, as such I would like you to answer the question.

Would you take the exact same risks at the real 'ring that you would on the virtual one?

As while it will of course vary from circuit to circuit to dismiss it out of hand as you are doing is simply not realistic.

I still don't feel "risk of death" is a valid variable to differing laptimes. I'm no racing driver. There are tracks I don't need to be one and thus I should be able to replicate my laptimes in the game and in reality within reasonable boundaries. I can't drive an LMP in the game, thus I never would attempt to do this in reality.

I believe I mentioned 'fear' as a factor, that encompass a range of things, not just death.

Can I ask have you driven on a track?

 

[Kamdoon]

ItsHim, I don't think the phrase was "fear of death," rather, "fear factor," and honestly I can't believe that anyone could discount or disagree with the difference between driving a real car vs. sim. in this respect. One would have to be phenomenologically abtuse to the nth degree to imagine that one experiences the same fear (or lack thereof) on any real track vs. sim., and that it doesn't make a real difference; and I think to argue otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

What times would Senna have driven in a Sim., he being (I think we all agree) "fearless" in real life? My guess is faster laps.

As an aside -- does anyone know how Vettal's times compare in the actual Red Bull X1 (or whatever it was called when they first fabricated it) vs. the simulator? He would be a good person to ask this question!

 

[Zer0]

The fear factor is there with not enought experienced drivers but instead good sim players. Anyway I consider the fear line in an exceptional pro driver very close from what any pro sim player could achieve with "legal" driving. Specially after a track learning and practice period.

I mean this guy know what is doing and can risk his life more than I will ever do or any of you.



Those skills, lack of fear and confidence translated to a pro driver are what make them success in their camp. If the sim is accurate I doubt that the limits could be reached much more with the same car specs anyway always there is an small gap to improve depending of the track and car configuration.

And using a gamepad and a good writer invalidates his view how?

Usually the gamepad controls being the more popular are coded with assists and buffers to ease the gameplay. More noticeable in some games than others and FM4 is not an exception.



In the other side 900º steering wheel controls are the least assisted and the best option to experience a game as a simulator.

 

[DaveS1138]

Not to sound harsh or anything, but I hate that comparison. From what I remember, Clarkson didn't have much criticism of GT4, yet the game had some serious flaws. Certainly, it was less realistic than GT5.

A lot of the game vs reality reviews that I've read/watch don't strike me as being truly objective and scientific. They're either marketing hype, or seem to be aimed at less knowledgeable players or potential players.

Anyway, I've never liked the "lack of fear" explanation. Personally, I don't drive virtually without fear. Sure, I know I can't die, but I still worry about damage to my car (if damage is present) or just going off track or crashing into others. Maybe it's me, but I can't go 110% in a sim without worrying a bit.

Using my limited FSAE autocross outings as a reference, the difference in fear between reality and virtual reality doesn't seem to be there. I think I might have actually felt more confident in the real car because I could feel what was going on, but admittedly, there are a lot of variables at work in this comparison.

I won't dismiss the fear factor outright, just as I've never seen it proven I can't disprove it without significant effort. However, I don't like to take it into consideration when comparing game to real life. All of that said though, lap times are only so helpful in evaluating sims. Lap times can even be troublesome when comparing two real cars.

I wasn't really posting that as a comment on a comprehensive comparissons of real life vs sim (as you say there are too many factors to consider) just to answer Itshim's comment that there have been no studies or experiments to show that "fear factor" has any effect. Here is an example where Jeremy Clarkson was not able to match his in game time and specifically said that one reason for that was that he could not get over the "fear factor" when racing in real life.

Obviously it will effect different people in different ways.....personally I dont think I would be able to race in real life the way I do in GT5 without a heck of a lot of practice in a real car to build up my confidence first.

I have the trophy for matching the real world Nurburgring time in the Nissan GT-R in GT5 but one look at the replay is enough to know that I would never ever have driven the car like that in real life.

 

[Exorcet]

Usually the gamepad controls being the more popular are coded with assists and buffers to ease the gameplay. More noticeable in some games than others and FM4 is not an exception.

But the physics are still the same if the assist is just an assist. It's intrusive and it has an impact on the gameplay, but unless the assist is basically driving the car for you, it won't totally mask the physics. I don't think the steering assist in Forza or GT are all that significant.

Obviously it will effect different people in different ways.....personally I dont think I would be able to race in real life the way I do in GT5 without a heck of a lot of practice in a real car to build up my confidence first.

I have the trophy for matching the real world Nurburgring time in the Nissan GT-R in GT5 but one look at the replay is enough to know that I would never ever have driven the car like that in real life.

I wouldn't drive close to how I drive in GT/Forza on a real track without practice either, but it's more about respecting the fact that the sim is a sim than fear (at least looking at it while sitting in front of my computer). I'm not going to risk betting that the braking point for whatever turn in the sim is the same as it is on the real track. I also wouldn't want to find that the bump before the apex is actually a lot bigger on the real track than in the sim. No matter how many hours I have logged into a sim, I am going to make a point of distinguishing real from fake. Should I ever go to the Nurburgring, my first lap there will be my first lap no matter how many times I've lapped the track virtually.

On Clarkson's GT4 comparison, I think that ItsHim was looking for looking for some kind of test that really looked into the fear factor specifically, which the NSX Laguna Seca run did not. Clarkson said that fear factor was a contributor, and I think that's fair, but there wasn't really an indication of how much fear contributed. If you wanted to get an idea of that, you would probably need a more realistic simulator to at least take the difference in physics out of the equation, or almost out.

 

[Scaff]

Usually the gamepad controls being the more popular are coded with assists and buffers to ease the gameplay. More noticeable in some games than others and FM4 is not an exception.



In the other side 900º steering wheel controls are the least assisted and the best option to experience a game as a simulator.

Yes they are, however they are minimal for both GT5 and FM4 and I agree that a good wheel is a better option (but is still not without its own issues - assist or not), however I still fail to see how that invalidates his opinion and I understand even less why his ability to write well (while always worth praise) is a negative? Yet both were painted that way by mykem.

The piece in question was not a paid advertisement, certainly not that I can recall and I would not have normally provided them as a source had that been the case, yet mykem seemed to make every attempt to portray it as such and the cynic in me has to wonder if it would have been an issue had they been discussing GT5.

 

[Zer0]

But the physics are still the same if the assist is just an assist. It's intrusive and it has an impact on the gameplay, but unless the assist is basically driving the car for you, it won't totally mask the physics. I don't think the steering assist in Forza or GT are all that significant.

Depends of your driving style, drifting is night and day and requires much more skills and precission with a wheel. In GT the pad assist are not close to how traditionally have been in Forza games. Now with FM4 seems that they are leaving the user the option but still somewhere remains. GT is more discrete helping the player.

How the car react or move are physics, all of what computes inside means nothing but the result.

If you wanted to get an idea of that, you would probably need a more realistic simulator to at least take the difference in physics out of the equation, or almost out.

I would change the more realistic simulator for a real experienced Laguna Seca pilot. GT4 driven with the right tyres have been proven very accurate at matching real times, even with an outdated physic model. Would be interesting to see the performance differences between a real pilot and JC.

========

Scaff, I don't know if it was payed or not but in today press, a campaign advert means a positive review and EVO has even a FM4 dedicated section with news, competitions, etc..

http://www.evo.co.uk/forza4/

Even got a cover!
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31636859&postcount=665

I don't remember that sort of promotion with GT5 and I'm sure that don't come free but the last that I would expect is a bad FM4 review or appointment in EVO magazine.

For the rest I was not defending mykem just wanted to clear the gamepad point as I agree that a sim review with a gamepad is not what I would expect as a conclusive point between two sims.

 

[Scaff]

Depends of your driving style, drifting is night and day and requires much more skills and precission with a wheel. In GT the pad assist are not close to how traditionally have been in Forza games. Now with FM4 seems that they are leaving the user the option but still somewhere remains. GT is more discrete helping the player.

How the car react or move are physics, all of what computes inside means nothing but the result.

Sorry can I just clarify how much time you have spent with FM4 as you seem to be referring to it in a manner that would suggest its not a lot?

I would change the more realistic simulator for a real experienced Laguna Seca pilot. GT4 driven with the right tyres have been proven very accurate at matching real times, even with an outdated physic model. Would be interesting to see the performance differences between a real pilot and JC.

I've done plenty of testing on GT4 on a huge range of tyres and am quite happy to categorically state that it has some huge holes in its physics model and that you would use it to back up the validity of lap times just goes to show how misleading they can be.

The Simraceway piece I mentioned took a driver who had never been to Infineon and let him run it in the sim first (a Sim far more advanced that either GT5 or FM4) and then the track (identical car). The result was over a second different and the exact issues I've mentioned were given as the reasons. The adjustment between the two took a significant amount of switched between the two and adaptation.

So given that, no I don't believe that matching lap times in GT4, 5 or FM4 means a damn thing.

Scaff, I don't know if it was payed or not but in today press, a campaign advert means a positive review and EVO has even a FM4 dedicated section with news, competitions, etc..

http://www.evo.co.uk/forza4/

Paid for press features in the UK have to be clearly shown as such, the FM4 pieces were not marked as such. You are however quite right that Evo did review FM4....

http://www.evo.co.uk/features/features/277024/review_forza_motorsport_4_on_xbox_360.html

...that's right they got the 14 year old son of one of the staff to review it. MS must be over the moon.

Campaign adverts don't mean an automatic positive review nor fawning praise and I wouldn't consider a review by a kid to be a sound investment if that was what I was after.

Even got a cover!
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31636859&postcount=665

Have you read it?

I have and the cover related indirectly to the FM4 pieces (which had around two pages of print) and directly to the BMW F10 M5 review (which had in excess of five).

Now lets look at it with the print in place....

...Forza gets a mention you are right, but it most certainly is not the focus of the cover at all. The M5 on road and track is.

I don't remember that sort of promotion with GT5 and I'm sure that don't come free but the last that I would expect is a bad FM4 review or appointment in EVO magazine.

The last GT promotion they did was for GT4 and it covered three pages and had as much prominence in terms of magazine placement.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=56281

What I didn't scan, but did run for weeks was a competition around lap times with lots of Sony and GT based prizes.

For the rest I was not defending mykem just wanted to clear the gamepad point as I agree that a sim review with a gamepad is not what I would expect as a conclusive point between two sims.

I didn't post it as a conclusive point between two sims, I posted it originally (over at Forza Planet as I knew the likely response from some of the crowd here) as simply a couple of interesting articles, the thread in question was not even dedicated to it, rather it was a collection of interesting articles.

www.forzaplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=112

I'm not responsible for how others present them, I was simply interested to know why the use of a pad and someones ability to write well invalidates the opinion they hold. Re-read my post and you will see the point I raised was just that.

 

[TakumiFuji01]

NOTE: This is just a opinion of what I think! Please don't take it offence, I don't want any problems or troubles

I have played both (Got FM4 for my B-Day in 2011 and got GT5 after the day it debuted).
For the exterior designing and tuning specific detailing, I go with FM4. For the physics and car models, I go with GT5 since the physics in FM4 feel a little sloppy(No offence); and it just doesn't seem the driving feel in the game doesn't match well and the cars are detailed nicely rather then using the same model from previous prequel(other then the Standards), there has been some mis-modelling designs on one of the cars in Forza like the S2000; look behind the hardtop near the end of the trunk,.

I tested both games on Tsukuba with Stock NA2 C32B Powered NSX-R. It got familiar times but the NSX-R in Forza kept oversteering a bit, but had some good stability; while the NSX-R in GT5 seem really stable and had great stability(maybe 5% better).

What game would I choose??
I will go with GT5 since I was born with GT but Forza is a great game too but you can't help it sometimes, once you like something for a long time, can't get rid of it.

 

[ItsHim]

No its not an assumption, its an observation based on both every comparison I have read in regard to sim vs real laps, and my own experience in that regard.

Still it's down to personal experience, which isn't exactly on the same level as the other points you raised as variation in environmental variables. I do qualify this as personal opinion or anecdotal.

I simply do not want to go round this in endless circles.

I gave two examples where I'm quite certain that lack of "fear (of death)" affecting lap times for the better does not fit.

And thus I don't think it should be presented as fact, but as opinion. Which is fine by me of course, because I'm always happy to listen to other's thoughts.

 

[Scaff]

Still it's down to personal experience, which isn't exactly on the same level as the other points you raised as variation in environmental variables. I do qualify this as personal opinion or anecdotal.

I simply do not want to go round this in endless circles.

I gave two examples where I'm quite certain that lack of "fear (of death)" affecting lap times for the better does not fit.

And thus I don't think it should be presented as fact, but as opinion. Which is fine by me of course, because I'm always happy to listen to other's thoughts.

Not a problem at all and depending on the track in question it may well be a lower factor in lap time differences than the other factors I mentioned (which is why I didn't rank them in any way), however I would still be interested to know you answers to the two questions I asked:

Would you take the exact same risks at the real 'ring that you would on the virtual one?

and

Have you ever driven on a track?

 

[ItsHim]

When the Nordschleife is open to the public, by default German road and traffic law is in effect. Thats because said law covers every piece of land, privately owned too, any random member of the public has access to. Thus one is requested to drive by the same rules one does on every other (back) road: no tailgating, no speeding and no approaching blind corners at high speeds.

So no, I wouldnt try a time attack on the real Nordschleife as this is the same foolish nonsense that gets people hurt everywhere else too. Besides I'm no licensed DMSB racing car driver so I would not be allowed to take my SuperGT 500 GT-R out for a spin anyway.

I attended 2 driver safety programs, courtesy of my former employer and was driven round the Norisring in a Porsche Cup car.

I did 40000 km in the past 2 years alone, thanks to my new workplace, and successfully dodged both lorries and mad BMW test drivers at speeds beyond 160 km/h. I do not take any chances at all, but even the most considerate driver finds himself in an awkward position once in a while.

 

[Scaff]

When the Nordschleife is open to the public, by default German road and traffic law is in effect. Thats because said law covers every piece of land, privately owned too, any random member of the public has access to. Thus one is requested to drive by the same rules one does on every other (back) road: no tailgating, no speeding and no approaching blind corners at high speeds.

I know. I've been and you are avoiding the question.

So no, I wouldnt try a time attack on the real Nordschleife as this is the same foolish nonsense that gets people hurt everywhere else too. Besides I'm no licensed DMSB racing car driver so I would not be allowed to take my SuperGT 500 GT-R out for a spin anyway.

So you acknowledge that you would not take the same risks on the real 'ring as you would on the virtual one.

I attended 2 driver safety programs, courtesy of my former employer and was driven round the Norisring in a Porsche Cup car.

So that would be minimal track experiences at best and by the sounds of it very little time spent on an open grid to push a car to the limit.

I did 40000 km in the past 2 years alone, thanks to my new workplace, and successfully dodged both lorries and mad BMW test drivers at speeds beyond 160 km/h. I do not take any chances at all, but even the most considerate driver finds himself in an awkward position once in a while.

OK, and...............

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

After reading about fear in driving on real life and sim ... in my view, everybody have one, we always feel the fear, no matter how tiny or big ... what matters most is what aspect of driving that contributes to the fear itself. We can't just limit that fear predominantly happened in the track, most of us drove our cars on the road, fear does also occur there as well as in virtual environments.

From my experience of driving more than 15 years in real life, what we fear most is the unknown factors, the unknown characteristic of the car we never driven before, the unknown corners that we never encounter, the unknown hazard that lies ahead in the middle of the foggy night, the unthinkable that might happen to our car when its driven to its limit in the heavy rain on a bumpy road, the lack of confidence when driving on a unfamiliar track or road, and so many more factor that might contributes to our feeling of fear and uncertainty.

Most of us get used to it, adapt, learn and overcome those feelings. Some crazy enough to ignore it, and drive like a mad man bat out of hell. Sometimes I tempted the fate itself, this happened to me once, driving on speed limited highway at more than 200km/h in the rain, granted I was scared driving on the limit at such weather, but I was so excited with the booming sounds of my exhaust and engine revving to the limit, I was intoxicated ... I did not know I got over the 200 km/h on the speedo until the car aquaplaned and the rear tires lost traction and I almost lost it before I eased on the gas, corrected the car and my friend sitting next to me said, that was scary as hell to have the back end slides in the rain.

One thing I learned that day, we can always overcome our fear, it depends on each person, while surviving driving on the limits in any car or road or track is another matter, so many factors involved there, driving skills, reflexes, car condition, road condition, luck, even what pushes me that moment to drive faster also a factor. If it was a race where it's do or die, I would give everything in my self and my car, forget everything else Maybe that's how some insanely fast driver do, motivate themselves with such mindset, who knows ...forget the fear if that's even possible.

To this day, I am still amazed by this man, The Drift King, how can he drive like that ....

The very first video of the Drift King Keiichi Tsuchiya back in 1987
Filmed on an open mountain road at Usui, this video is a perfect demo of his drifting skills on his AE86 and maybe lack of fear.
After this video,the Drift King had his racing licence retired by the JAF (Japan Automobile Federation) because of this dangerous driving on the road.




this ..



and the race ... much more exciting than F1



Maybe we should ask Dori Dori himself, did he felt any fear when driving like that on the video ? does fear affect his lap times ? if so how much, a tenth, a second ?...

 

[phil_75]

I don't think fear has anything to do with most pro drivers, watch this, its not fear stopping him going faster, it's the limit of the car! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jcvxKMHN6w&feature=related




Their point at which fear starts is much higher than the average Joe.

 

[Famine]

Their point at which fear starts is much higher than the average Joe.

Yes. But in a game it doesn't start at all - there is no fear when there is no damage, no injury and two button presses between anything and the beginning again.

 

[Exorcet]

Yes. But in a game it doesn't start at all - there is no fear when there is no damage, no injury and two button presses between anything and the beginning again.

I can't agree that there is no fear in a sim. There is no fear of death, but it's not like you'll never have a nagging feeling to back off a little or to brake a bit earlier. At least that's how it is for me. Conversely, in real life fear might not stop you from reaching or exceeding the limit of the car.

 

[Famine]

Really? I only experience annoyance and frustration when I've gone well past the limits, rather than "Ohcrapohcrapohcrap"...

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Maybe when you have too much pride, and can't afford to lose to others, then you might feel slight hint of fear of losing. What motivates us to drive faster, push harder on the limit in sims ? that motivation alone could be the true reason we might feel fear, a fear of losing, fear of inability to measure up to our own words, fear of crashing the car in a race event where pride and something valuable are at stake.

I did race my friend once on GT5 online, we put a side bet, whoever loses, gets to pay the next dinner with our friends, I felt the fear, losing that is ... because if I lose, I have to pay my friends dinner , and I did lose

One thing that is certain, sometimes when we have a heated race in the game so close to other drivers, we get to feel the rush, faster heart beats, that tremble on our sweaty twitchy hands, the heart stopping moments of going too hot, crashing or clean overtake, we felt certain kind of fear, fear of the unknown ... will we make it to the finish line ... as a winner or loser. I guess that's fear when we play sims

 

[Exorcet]

Really? I only experience annoyance and frustration when I've gone well past the limits, rather than "Ohcrapohcrapohcrap"...

Does going past the limit have any effect on the next few corners for you? If I get into a nasty slide (virtual) and recover, it could make me a bit more cautious coming into the next corner. I don't think I would consider it "Oh crap", but I don't just go on driving like nothing happened.

Granted, there are times where I do take advantage of sims being sims, most specifically when trying to practice a specific corner. In that case I usually don't care if my car winds up upside down, at least initially. In a race or time trial, I hate crashing and really do try to avoid it, or even going off track.

 

[Famine]

Does going past the limit have any effect on the next few corners for you? If I get into a nasty slide (virtual) and recover, it could make me a bit more cautious coming into the next corner. I don't think I would consider it "Oh crap", but I don't just go on driving like nothing happened.

Granted, there are times where I do take advantage of sims being sims, most specifically when trying to practice a specific corner. In that case I usually don't care if my car winds up upside down, at least initially. In a race or time trial, I hate crashing and really do try to avoid it, or even going off track.

The question is if it matters. I guess I'm just too old and too not-give-a-crap, because stuffing a representation of a car into a representation of a wall with absolute no detriment to my existence just doesn't matter. Hating crashing is normal, but being afraid of it..? If it doesn't matter and causes you no harm, where's the fear coming from?

I'd say video game fear is more phobia than fear - a phobia by definition being an irrational fear of something that cannot possibly cause you any harm. I'm simply not afraid of crashing in a driving game.

 

[Christhedude]

I don't think fear has anything to do with most pro drivers, watch this, its not fear stopping him going faster, it's the limit of the car![/url]

Their point at which fear starts is much higher than the average Joe.

You are right, but for example when im racing in the VLN at the Nurburgring GP and Nordschleife, around the GP circuit everyones pushing 105% but as soon as we enter the nordschleife is down to 95% since one mistake will cost your entire race on the Ring.

When Im racing in the carrera cup on "regular" tracks such as hockenheim or magny cours, its always a 105 % pushing.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

The question is if it matters. I guess I'm just too old and too not-give-a-crap, because stuffing a representation of a car into a representation of a wall with absolute no detriment to my existence just doesn't matter. Hating crashing is normal, but being afraid of it..? If it doesn't matter and causes you no harm, where's the fear coming from?

I'd say video game fear is more phobia than fear - a phobia by definition being an irrational fear of something that cannot possibly cause you any harm. I'm simply not afraid of crashing in a driving game.

Do you ever feel any stress, anxiety, tension or worry when playing video games of any kind ?

Stress, tension, anxiety and worry are definite symptoms of fear. I played many survival horror games, Dead Space, Silent Hill, Cold Fear, etc, they gave me tension, anxiety and many other feelings. I also do feel the stress and tension when driving in GT5, no matter how little they are, they exist, I do believe that no man could have no negative emotional response at all when driving both real life or virtual. They should feel something, excitement, joy, anger, stress, tension, anxiety, worry ... when playing. Because if not, then whats the purpose of playing a driving game..

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Yes. But in a game it doesn't start at all - there is no fear when there is no damage, no injury and two button presses between anything and the beginning again.

The discussion seems to be about comparing lap times in game to real world times so comparing a no fear in-game lap to a driver with very little to no fear on there fastest qualifying lap is quite plausible thing I would say if you try and factor difference of grip conditions with the tyres and the setup of the car. If the handling looks similar to real life and cornering speeds are close then the simulation is doing a decent job. GT5 tries to capture the raw feeling of the car before any electronic aid comes into play, the MP4-12C for example drives similar to real life with the electronic aids turned off. If you drive slowly in GT5, everything looks tame just like in real life but only when you start pushing the car near its limits, the car starts showing its handling characteristics.

You are right, but for example when im racing in the VLN at the Nurburgring GP and Nordschleife, around the GP circuit everyones pushing 105% but as soon as we enter the nordschleife is down to 95% since one mistake will cost your entire race on the Ring.

When Im racing in the carrera cup on "regular" tracks such as hockenheim or magny cours, its always a 105 % pushing.

Kaz says he also drives 95% in the Nurburgring regarding races. He did a lap time comparison in the game and compared to his real time and it matched up when he drove 95% also in the game from what I remember.

 

[Exorcet]

but being afraid of it..? If it doesn't matter and causes you no harm, where's the fear coming from?

I suppose it would come from competition. Or maybe fear isn't the correct word, but I can't simply jump in a simulated car and drive or attempt to drive at 100% with the same level of concern or concentration as driving at 70%. I might not even be able to go to 100 if I don't think I can handle it. And if the sim in question features damage, there is a pretty solid incentive not to push the risk envelope too far.

 

[Famine]

Do you ever feel any stress, anxiety, tension or worry when playing video games of any kind?

No. They aren't real. Nothing that happens on the panel in front of me is real.

They should feel something, excitement, joy, anger, stress, tension, anxiety, worry ... when playing. Because if not, then whats the purpose of playing a driving game..

Excitement and joy, yes. Anger - occasionally at myself for dumbnosity or at lousy game mechanics.

The purpose of playing an anything game is recreation - fun. If it's stressing you out, it's not fun.

The discussion seems to be about comparing lap times in game to real world times so comparing a no fear in-game lap to a driver with very little to no fear on there fastest qualifying lap is quite plausible thing I would say if you try and factor difference of grip conditions with the tyres and the setup of the car. If the handling looks similar to real life and cornering speeds are close then the simulation is doing a decent job. GT5 tries to capture the raw feeling of the car before any electronic aid comes into play, the MP4-12C for example drives similar to real life with the electronic aids turned off. If you drive slowly in GT5, everything looks tame just like in real life but only when you start pushing the car near its limits, the car starts showing its handling characteristics.

You can't compare any human behaviour in a situation where they have any fear from an activity to one where they have none.

I suppose it would come from competition. Or maybe fear isn't the correct word, but I can't simply jump in a simulated car and drive or attempt to drive at 100% with the same level of concern or concentration as driving at 70%. I might not even be able to go to 100 if I don't think I can handle it. And if the sim in question features damage, there is a pretty solid incentive not to push the risk envelope too far.

In any driving game you can jump in and go straight to any level you wish without detriment - usually too high before you come back down a bit. You can then smack along at 99% lap after lap, occasionally finding an extra couple of tenths you didn't know were there to change the limit.

In a real car you can jump in and go only to your limits first and then, as confidence and familiarity builds, to the car's limits - frequently to a little bit over them, before you learn where the edge is. Then you can smack along at 95% lap after lap to preserve your stamina with a little bit in reserve if you need it.

Professional racing drivers simply have higher limits because their confidence in their abilities overrides their fear of failure and extends those limits nearer the car's limits. Oddly, teenagers have higher limits for exactly the same reasons, just with less reason for it

 

[Saidur_Ali]

You can't compare any human behaviour in a situation where they have any fear from an activity to one where they have none.

I think you can considering the level of fear factor is very little in both cases, say an all out qualifying lap in real life with the best drivers in the world vs the virtual world. +-1% in lap time maybe will help comparisons. If grip levels are close to equal and driver level in respective worlds closely matched, I think it will be a good comparison if video of both laps match up and the way the car handles and goes around the track looks similar.

The Mercedes Live race was recently a comparison, reality was faster (Even on damp track which was sort of equalised with small corner cuts by DC ) but in hands of a top GT5 driver, virtual would have been faster due to being set on ideal conditions and being able to set more laps in them conditions. If DC did a lap in more ideal conditions without corner cutting then, he might be within the +-1% of lap time of the fastest GT5 driver in the same period of time and it will be a more like for like comparison then.