Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[BWX]

Neither 458 is particularly hard to drive, and that's not really the issue. Realism is what we're after, and that has nothing to do with difficulty.

You're quote below, where you bring up difficulty, is what I was referring to.

In Forza, the 458 didn't seem to have any artificial stability like it does in GT5. You really need to watch what you're doing because getting careless will send the car out of control, yet at the same time, as long as you're mindful of what you're doing controlling the car is pretty easy. Being careless with the throttle carries heavier consequences in Forza than in GT.

I do notice ''ABS 1'' affecting what you're talking about in GT5 and you said you tested that car in GT5 with ABS set to 1. It's hard to proclaim one having more realism than the other based on subjective feel anyway. But yes ABS affecting more than just the brakes in GT5 is definitely a flaw. You have to turn it off to get around it unfortunately.
http://ww.youtube.com/?v=KMRmLDZXRRI

Pobst mentioned something about ''putting the power down well'' twice. Maybe it isn't supposed to be a twitchy car? Not sure what tires he's on. Anyway it's a cool vid.

 

[barny0111]

Interesting thread. I am at the point in F4 were the AI is extremely frustrating, bumping me and spinning me at every turn. And the faster race cars are really hard to control, making it a frustrating experience.

I was going to sell the game, but after reading some of the posts, I am not ready to right it off yet. I am very used to GT5, so maybe it will take time to adjust to F4 physics.

I would love a proper wheel, I have been playing with the wireless wheel, the new one shaped like a horse shoe. Much better than the controller. I guess i'll keep investigating some different driving styles and setups. But if I still don't get the satisfaction payoff, I'll be palming this one off and sticking with GT5.

And yes even though F4 may have superior physics, as posted. The physics are reminding me slightly of Shift 2.

 

[Exorcet]

Well again, I didn't say it was hard. I even described the 458 as being easy to drive, as long as you're not careless. This makes perfect sense to me; you can take the best car there is out for a lap, but it you drive like a drunk you're not going to stay on the track for long.

I think Forza and Pobst agree pretty well. I actually went back to the demo, this time trying all three cars. I got a bit of a surprise out of the Subaru because I managed to lose it in a couple of turns where the Ferrari had little issue getting by when I drove it the first time. The differences between cars in Forza (or at least the three cars in the demo) are much bigger than in GT5. The Mercury actually felt like a muscle car, instead of a slow car that just has low grip and mega understeer.

I think at this point, it's pretty clear to me. Forza is just better at modeling driving.

 

[Tenacious D]

I was going to sell the game, but after reading some of the posts, I am not ready to right it off yet. I am very used to GT5, so maybe it will take time to adjust to F4 physics.

Forza is just one of those odd games you just have to try first. If you've never tried the series before, you can't tackle racing like you do in GT5, or your favorite sim, or even real life, or it's going to frustrate you. You have to practice it more than any racer I've ever encountered, because it's just it's own creature. In some ways it's very realistic, but in others it's just weird, and you have to adjust to what it demands. According to Scaff, the MS FFB wheel is dandy, so I'd suggest finding one if buying a Fanatec is out of the question for a while. I can't enjoy racers without a wheel controller of some kind anymore, and it is a big help with a game as finicky as Forza.

I was wondering if someone would bring up Shift. One of the mods over at Forzacentral told me where the team had come from, and they mentioned several game companies such as Crystal Dynamics. But a core group had been hired away from EA's Need For Speed team, and Forza has always had some of that flavor in it.

If you have it, I'd suggest you keep at it for a couple of weeks or so, and try different things, even different views. I've gone back to my "hang gliding" view and this has helped quite a bit with the R Class cars. The bots are annoying as hell sometimes. They brake like GT5's bots do, and ram you like GT4's bots do, and will throw you off the road like Forza 1's bots do. And I'd mentioned that some of them drive like Jeremy Clarkson after he's had a few, which is rather unnerving when you're in a "professional" race with high powered race cars, and some bots are driving like stoned teenagers!

You also should look at the Livery Editor, which is the big reason I keep coming back to Forza. Being able to race mod any car in the game, even to swapping drive trains on many cars, as well as being able to paint all the race cars, is simply too awesome for a car artist like me. And there are a few very nice artists who make incredible designs for sale if you just can't get a handle on it, but want a different look for your car. And there are decals for sale, many great ones for free, so you aren't stuck with the skimpy list T10 gives you. I especially like the wealth of real racing plaques and league badges offered in the Storefront. Of course this means you need Live Gold, but you should be able to find some deals on Live subscription cards online.

I'm getting back to GT5 today because I need a break from tense, belligerent, uncertain racing. Besides, I've been caught up too much in getting through Forza's seasons and haven't even tried GT5's marvelous DLC yet!

 

[BWX]

Actually I hope Forza 4 IS better than GT5 in the physics department. The way Kaz has been going lately, that will just give him more incentive to further improve the physics in GT5. The improvements they already made are impressive to me.. especially this last upgrade in Spec II.

If F4's physics totally sucked, maybe PD wouldn't have quite the fire under their butts to keep on improving GT5 (or maybe they would, we'll never know).

 

[Scaff]

On that point, that all my cars oversteer in every turn, yes, I stand by that. Edit: with a caveat. After some 50-odd races, I've stopped a few dozen events ago from racing in the way I approach every other racing game, and have migrated back to my old Forza style. So now, every turn doesn't suffer this tendency to keep steering, since I'm watching the way the nose points and how the wheel behaves much more closely, and more twitch-ily. But the tendency for the car to keep wanting to turn on its own is still ever present, and manifests in a good deal of my turns. I guess I'll do some replays of some practice laps in a few cars and just not fight the oversteer, and see how it goes.

I look forward to seeing them as I find it very strange that you are having such a different experience to the majority of people.

Then I have to wonder if Toca and the GTRs can be said to be any more realistic than Gran Turismo in that regard, because 60+ is what my friends and I have done at that point in those games, and I did note how similar the racing games performed versus each other which featured Silverstone. I assumed that was some sort of benchmark.

The physics of the real world are not going to be worng, so that then comes down to the car and the sim.

Now 60-ish mph is pretty much into the territory of pure mechanical grip (almost no aero), so it would depend on the car in question being able to pull 1.8g in a 140ft radius (which is F1 figures), quite possible for some pure race cars.

Forza is just one of those odd games you just have to try first. If you've never tried the series before, you can't tackle racing like you do in GT5, or your favorite sim, or even real life, or it's going to frustrate you.

Not sure what you are saying with this, but if its that you have to approach the driving and how the cars react in FM4 in a different way to real life (or even GT5) then I couldn't disagree more.

I've found that the same techniques I would expect to use on the road or track work just as well in FM4 or GT5, however in FM4 I'm getting a lot more feedback from the cars, particularly in regard to what the tyres are doing and the feeling of mass and its movement.


Scaff

 

[barny0111]

Not sure what you are saying with this, but if its that you have to approach the driving and how the cars react in FM4 in a different way to real life (or even GT5) then I couldn't disagree more.

Scaff

These posts are really interesting. I've never driven such a high powered car, so I can't say if F4 physics are real life.

Is F4 being a purest this time round? Because with aids off, at high speed these race cars are a unrelenting.

If this is true, then its a case of the physics being too real. And not very accessible unless you fully understand the tuning variables.

I just can't make up my mind whether this game is genius or lazy.

 

[pjs123456789]

I am reading the post and I get the impression that many feel forza have better physic by the was the car driving in forza. Have anyone notice that gt5 has steering assist, I mostly drive premium cars and cockpit view and I always notice at lower speeds the steering turns more and at high speeds the steering don't turn much no matter how much you turn the joystick on the ds3 so it is clear gt5 has steering assist. It is my opinion that the steering assist make the cars much easier to control. The tire purchasing screen in gt5 give you a short description on the tires. It is stated that most cars come equip with the different comfort tires. When using the comfort tires the cars produces g's on the gforce meter comparable to the corresponding real car according to the real car grip specs. Also I was testing a viper srt10 with 1000 hp close to stock weight, racing soft tires, no traction control, I did a drag, 0 to 220mph in 25 secs, the henessy viper with a 1000 hp did 0 to 220mph in 24. 1 or .2 seconds which means gt5 is almost perfectly recreating acceleration, the same can be said about the top speeds and the cornering speeds depending on the tire compound. Also the areo in gt5 is affected by the car speeds so if a group c will pull 1.5g's at 40mph at 100 it may pull 2g's and at 150 it may pull 3g's. I have tested all these areas. So with these basic areas for the gt5 physics it is more than reasonable to call it the real driving similar.

 

[Scaff]

I also did finally post some videos of my own in my storefront a few days ago, which will of course have all the views and telemetry for you to cross examine at your pleasure if you download them into your 360. The nick is Nigel Fox. Unfortunately the official Forza site is so mucked up, I'll have to have a mod sort out giving me access to my old account.

I've had a look at the replays you have posted, and given that the cars in question are an LFA, DBR9 and Falcon, I've not seen anything like them oversteering all the time and nor does the telemetry seem to back that up.

All three are extremely powerful RWD cars and even on racing slicks are going to oversteer on slower corner exits (which is just about the only time I've seen oversteer on the replays) if you open the throttle too quickly.

I would ask that others take a look at these replays and let me know what their thoughts are, because these haven't helped me at all.

TD - would it be possible for you to pop up a replay of the TT at Luffield as this the same one you will find on my storefront (ScaffGTP will find it for you), as I think a comparison is needed of the same car and corner combo.


Scaff

 

[Skython]

I can't vote because I haven't played Forza 4. But I've played 3. I enjoyed it very much, but it felt quite arcadey to me. But.

Forza has a lot more fun extras, livery editors, engine swaps, body kits, some cool fake? tracks, like Fujimi Kaido I think it's called. Some cooler cars too, more orientated to the cars people want to drive. Porsche was in there excluding 4, Turn 10 chose the big supercars. GT went for variation between all cars.

GT5 has better physics (than Forza 3, I haven't played 4 so I can't say) I'd say GT has better graphics but they're almost even now. FM4 looks pretty good, but I do prefer GT5's graphics. GT5 is the creator, and Forza copies. Photomode is a good example, but then again I think they both learn off each other. Forza is the one night stand sort of game, but GT5 is the lifetime partner (sorry for weird example).

 

[azrael1965]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENmnEd7EZd4
Short Autoweek FM4 Reality check with LFA on Nordschleife. 'There is too much movement in the way the cars goes. In real life a super sports car like this has much more grip, and responds more direct. Therefore it skids very little. When you do lose the grip, you're gone. In automotive terms we call this snappy characteristic. They could recreate that more accuratly in my opinion. You have to steer more in the game, so that's not quite right. Like what you see in the screen when you let off the throttle for a bit. Points where in real life I can go easily go full throttle in fifth gear, like in a faint corner i have to take half throttle in four here. And still the car is skidding a bit. In that sense realism isn't as optimised as it could be. ' I am really wondering what the reviewer thinks of GT5.

 

[Lukeydopeyus]

7:26.70 lap time on Nürburgring Nordschleife set in 23 April 2009 by Nissan test driver Toshio Suzuki driving a Nissan GTR, now matched in a GT5 presented in splitscreen vs real life video 1:1, GT5 Nissan GTR equipped with Sports-Medium tires - different than the default tires in the game, no assists, with steering wheel and a nice large screen. Unbelievable ... I was stunned with this video ...

 

[G24]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNJGcFR3HT4">YouTube Link</a>

7:26.70 lap time&#65279; on Nürburgring Nordschleife set in 23 April 2009 by Nissan test driver Toshio Suzuki driving a Nissan GTR, now matched in a GT5 presented in splitscreen vs real life video 1:1, GT5 Nissan GTR equipped with Sports-Medium tires - different than the default tires in the game, no assists, with steering wheel and a nice large screen.&#65279; Unbelievable ... I was stunned with this video ...

Thanks for the link, that was amazing

 

[Scaff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENmnEd7EZd4
Short Autoweek FM4 Reality check with LFA on Nordschleife. 'There is too much movement in the way the cars goes. In real life a super sports car like this has much more grip, and responds more direct. Therefore it skids very little. When you do lose the grip, you're gone. In automotive terms we call this snappy characteristic. They could recreate that more accuratly in my opinion. You have to steer more in the game, so that's not quite right. Like what you see in the screen when you let off the throttle for a bit. Points where in real life I can go easily go full throttle in fifth gear, like in a faint corner i have to take half throttle in four here. And still the car is skidding a bit. In that sense realism isn't as optimised as it could be. ' I am really wondering what the reviewer thinks of GT5.

What strikes me as strange actually has nothing to do with the FM4 bits, but rather the deascription of the LFA as having snappy characteristics!

That's totally at odds with every review I've seen of the car, including Autoweek's own.

You drive through the bluster, realise it’s not the prelude to a clash of wills, discover a supercar more forgiving than you would ever have guessed. Let the tail move out, then lean hard on it, applying more and more power as any residual nose-drift ebbs away and the trajectory becomes throttle-variable in the most fantastically positive, connected way.

Source - http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/244753/lexus_lfa.html

Through the back section of the Nordschleife where a few off-camber turns can upset the car, the LFA pulls through with minimal drama. The car feels lively as it dances through the corners, the Torsen limited-slip differential helping the car blast out of the turns. Even with the yaw control completely deactivated, the Lexus behaves predictably with mild understeer.

Source - http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/impressions/2011-lexus-lfa

"A bit of oversteer but its easy to correct that" and "Again slightly oversteered, but a small correction with the steering wheel is enough to get it straightened out"

Source - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR66D4BsMMc


None of those suggest a snappy car at all, rather one that easy to drive at pace, these are all from track reviews and the first two at the Nurburgring and the Autoweek one was when they broke the production car lap record at Goodwood.

The impression I get from them is of a car that has a mobile but easily controlled tail, not something that will try and take you head off the second you get over the limit.


Scaff

 

[azrael1965]

I don't speak dutch , so i can rely only on the english translation of the youtube video. But from my understanding he meant that the real life car is easier to drive and doesn't skid as much as its FM4 counterpart. This would actually in accordance with the other reviews you posted, which describe the LFA as a predictable and easy to correct car. I believe as a former dutch touring car champion, Autoweek testdriver and having driven a real LFA at the Nürburgring just recently( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvL4aubO6yY ), the guy should know what he is talking about.

http://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?showtopic=236434&st=2200
On this website is stated that he prefers GT5s handling. ( 'He just noted the handling in Gran Turismo 5 felt better overall, as the cars feels more nervous when driving on the limit - like real high-performance and race cars do, apparantly' ) If true or not , i cannot tell. But if it's true i believe his opinion. At least i haven't found a opinion from someone better qualified. (At least regarding to LFA and Nordschleife)

 

[Scaff]

I don't speak dutch , so i can rely only on the english translation of the youtube video. But from my understanding he meant that the real life car is easier to drive and doesn't skid as much as its FM4 counterpart. This would actually in accordance with the other reviews you posted, which describe the LFA as a predictable and easy to correct car. I believe as a former touring car champion, Autoweek testdriver and having driven a real LFA at the Nürburgring just recently( http://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?showtopic=236434&st=2200 ), the guy should know what he is talking about.

http://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?showtopic=236434&st=2200
On this website is stated that he prefers GT5s handling. ( 'He just noted the handling in Gran Turismo 5 felt better overall, as the cars feels more nervous when driving on the limit - like real high-performance and race cars do, apparantly' ) If true or not , i cannot tell. But if it's true i believe his opinion. At least i haven't found a opinion from someone better qualified. (At least regarding to LFA and Nordschleife)

It may well be down to the translation, but "When you do lose the grip, you're gone" doesn't come even close to "predictable and easy to correct", quite the opposite.

I also having looked at the video think I know why and am more than a bit disappointed in Autoweek.

From the video:





The car he was driving on the 'ring (as in the real car) is the LFA Nurburgring, a special edition that is 100 kilos lighter, has an extra 10bhp (which translates to 407bhp/tonne vs 372bhp/tonne), rides 10mm lower, has a totally different aero package (with increased downforce), a revised suspension set-up and runs on totally different tyres (Bridgestone RE 070 track tyres) to the standard LFA.

You can see the LFA Nurburgring here:

http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/supercarvideos/273850/lexus_lfa_nurburgring_edition_video_review.html

Notice the exact same registration plate.


To compare the LFA Nur to the standard car is absurd, of course they will handle differently, its a significantly different set-up and explains why it doesn't match the reviews for the standard car.

Sorry but for me that pretty much invalidates the comparison, particularly if you read the Evo review of the LFA Nurburgring, which is more akin to a race car than a road car (and that includes the standard LFA).


Scaff

 

[azrael1965]

It may well be down to the translation, but "When you do lose the grip, you're gone" doesn't come even close to "predictable and easy to correct", quite the opposite.
The car he was driving on the 'ring (as in the real car) is the LFA Nurburgring, a special edition that is 100 kilos lighter, has an extra 10bhp (which translates to 407bhp/tonne vs 372bhp/tonne), rides 10mm lower, has a totally different aero package (with increased downforce) and runs on totally different tyres (Bridgestone RE 070 track tyres) to the standard LFA.

I don't know dutch, so i can't tell what he means exactly. For me it's still the most relevant opinion in the GT5 vs Forza4 physics discussion, LFA Nürburgring or not. I am pretty sure the guy as a autoweek testdriver he can distinguish pretty well between a Nürburgring Edition and a normal LFA, between a GT3 and a normal 911, A M3 GTS and a normal M3. This guy has plenty of experience with race & normal cars. Toyota will not give a 1 of 50 440000$ LFA Nürburgring Edition to anybody to drive on the Nordschleife. So for me its still the most valid expert opinion. Doesn't matter to me to say the truth, Forza 4 is still fun as before. I will stop posting for tonight and play some Forza.

 

[Scaff]

I don't know dutch, so i can't tell what he means exactly. For me it's still the most relevant opinion in the GT5 vs Forza4 physics discussion, LFA Nürburgring or not. I am pretty sure the guy as a autoweek testdriver can distinguish pretty well between a Nürburgring Edition and a normal LFA, between a GT3 and a normal 911, A M3 GTS and a normal M3. Toyota will not give a LFA Nürburgring Edition to anybody to drive on the Nordschleife. So for me its still the most valid expert opnion. Doesn't matter to me to say the truth, Forza 4 is still fun as before. I will stop posting for tonight and play some Forza.

Sorry but you can't just ignore the differences between the two cars and still say its a valid comparison, have a read of this....

The LFA Nurburgring leaps over the crest at 170mph, then uses that extra downforce to carry noticeably more speed through the fifth gear left hander than we had managed in the base LFA an hour earlier

Source - Evo issue 163, page 120

...sounds remarkable similar to one of the 'differences' described in the Autoweek comparison, yet this is a real difference between the LFA and the LFA Nurburgring.

They are two significantly different beasts and more than enough to raise serious issues with the comparison.

Scaff

 

[azrael1965]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR66D4BsMMc
Here is the guy sitting in a normal LFA. So he should have experience with the standard version as well. I think you posted this video already. But even if he didn't, his opinion would still be valid for me as well. As a professional car reviewer and race driver I have confidence in his skill to adapt and of his knowledge as how a car should feel like in a simulation. And he broke the Goodwill lap record with the car, so his skill shouldn't be that shabby.
To sum this up: This guy is a professional car tester, a former race driver, he has driven LFA and LFA Nürburgring Edition. He knows the Nordschleife very well. He played both FM4 and GT5. He has connections to a professional dutch game magazine. So why should his opinion be invalid for me?

 

[Scaff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR66D4BsMMc
Here is the guy sitting in a normal LFA. So he should have experience with the standard version as well. I think you posted this video alreadyl. But even if he didn't, his opinion would still be valid for me as well. As a professional car reviewer and race driver I have confidence in his skill to adapt and of his knowledge as how a car should feel like in a simulation. And he broke the Goodwill lap record with the car, so his skill shouldn't be that shabby.

I didn't question his skill or his ability, however that doesn't change the quite clear fact that a supposed comparison of 'identical' cars was no such thing. For all we know the driver in question may not have been made aware of the FM4 car being the standard car. He does after all quite clearly state that he is not much of a gamer.

That no mention at all is made during the video that we are looking at two significantly different versions of the car doesn't help matters either, in fact quite the opposite impression is given. Hell I've been reading about the LFA Nur today and it wasn't until the third time I watched the video that I noticed.

I also think that its rather telling that the entire Evo article describes many of the difference between the two version is remarkably similar terms to that of the comparison video.

That said its not exactly difficult to find videos or articles of either game in which people (with significant experience) describe the accuracy of the physics and how similar they are to the real deal.



Scaff

 

[azrael1965]

I didn't question his skill or his ability, however that doesn't change the quite clear fact that a supposed comparison of 'identical' cars was no such thing. For all we know the driver in question may not have been made aware of the FM4 car being the standard car. He does after all quite clearly state that he is not much of a gamer.

That no mention at all is made during the video that we are looking at two significantly different versions of the car doesn't help matters either, in fact quite the opposite impression is given. Hell I've been reading about the LFA Nur today and it wasn't until the third time I watched the video that I noticed.

I also think that its rather telling that the entire Evo article describes many of the difference between the two version is remarkably similar terms to that of the comparison video.

That said its not exactly difficult to find videos of either game in which people (with significant experience) describe the accuracy of the physics and how similar they are to the real deal.

I also haven't said his opinion should be invalid for you, but it certainly makes the comparison invalid for me.


Scaff

It's true that he might not have been aware of know that it was the standard edition he was driving in the game. After all it must have been the fault of the game magazine guys, as the are likely responsible for the setup of the gaming system. But it still doesn't make his opinion of the handling invalid for me as he had driving experience with a normal LFA as well. He even said in one of the videos that the LFA Nürburgring is 7 second faster, which is a lot at Nordschleife. But i don't think that the seven seconds during a over 7 Minute laptime change the character of the car completly. Anyway if it makes his opinion in your as eyes invalid, it's your right to do so. For my part, I trust him.

 

[Scaff]

It's true that hemight not have been aware of know that it was the standard edition he was driving in the game. After all it must have been the fault of the game magazine guys, as the are likely responsible for the setup of the gaming system. But it still doesn't make his opinion of the handling invalid as he had driving experience with a normal LFA as well. Anyway if it makes his opinion in your as eyes invalid, it's your right to do so. For my part, I trust him.

Of course it doesn't make his opinion invalid, but it puts it in a totally different light, he drove the standard car at Goodwood over a year ago and would have driven the Nurburgring version less than a month ago (because that's when it was launched at the 'ring).

If he's sat down and asked to compare the FM4 car against the one he drove a month ago (which it appears he was given the two comparison videos) then the differences he is noting are of course valid. Mainly because they are two different versions, and that's reinforced by the Evo comparison being an almost identical match.

He's not making a comparison of a real LFA vs a FM4 LFA and its doesn't matter which way you try and cut it, that's not what's happening here.

If he was (as you seem to be asserting) actually comparing the FM4 LFA to the Standard LFA then how do you explain the differences Evo found between the standard LFA and the LFA Nurburgring? Because they shouldn't have found any (and as a result anyone buying one of the 50 Nur versions is throwing away the extra 85k it costs).

You need to read up on the Nur version, because its quite clear from those who have driven it that it is a significantly different car in character, particularly in regard to its handling balance (far more neutral - less oversteer) and the speed it can carry through corners. Its got a totally different aero package, revised suspension, lower ride height and stickier track biased tyres. All of which are more than enough to change the character of any car. Hell when I had my 320 just changing from run-flats to standard tyres totally changed the character of the car (and I do mean totally) and that was just the tyres.


Scaff

 

[azrael1965]

He's not making a comparison of a real LFA vs a FM4 LFA and its doesn't matter which way you try and cut it, that's not what's happening here.

Are you absolutly sure? Because we see a white normal LFA at the start of the video, which he 'changes' into the orange Nürburgring Edition and he states at the end of the lap that the difference between the 2 cars is seven seconds. how can he do that if he never drove the normal LFA at the Nordschleife?
And even the Evo magazine states that the Lexus LFA Nurburgring Edition 'is not significantly altered from the standard Lexus range-topper.' http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/272212/lexus_lfa_laps_the_nurburgring_in_714.html

 

[Scaff]

Are you absolutly sure? Because we see a white normal LFA at the start of the video, which he 'changes' into the orange Nürburgring Edition and he states at the end of the lap that the difference between the 2 cars is seven seconds. how can he do that if he never drove the normal LFA at the Nordschleife?

I didn't say he had never driven the normal LFA at the 'ring, what you have however missed it would seem that you didn't watch the entire video as he quite clearly outlines the difference between the standard LFA and The Nur.

• Really feel the extra downforce
• wow its much harder
• now a race car rather than a road car
• you can really feel teh extra grip of the tyres over those fitted to the standard car

And so it goes on.

Seriously the more I watch, the clearer it seems that the FM4 comparison video is comparing the LFA to the LFA Nur. The differences he outlines in that video match Evo findings and his own findings in his full review of the Nur verison.

And even the Evo magazine states that the Lexus LFA Nurburgring Edition 'is not significantly altered from the standard Lexus range-topper.' http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/272212/lexus_lfa_laps_the_nurburgring_in_714.html

Which is taken from an early news piece on the car, I'm quoting the actual Evo review of the car and have also provided a link to the video review (both of which are more up to date than a news piece that almost certainly comes from a press release from Lexus). The Autoweek video review you provided and I refereed to above clearly outlines the differences, now more a race car than a road car is certainly significant.

Scaff

 

[wallpaper42]

I don't race cars so I'm really not sure.

 

[azrael1965]

• Really feel the extra downforce
• wow its much harder
• now a race car rather than a road car
• you can really feel teh extra grip of the tyres over those fitted to the standard car

I don't doubt that, but that can be said of most lightweight version of cars.
Or at least this is what you read in car magazines. M3 CSL, 911 GT3, 360 Challenge Stradale, 430 Scuderia, M3 GTS , 997 GT2 RS are all said to be like race cars, to be much harder, to have better grip (especially M3 CSL) at least in german car magazines.
But what in the end matters is the laptime difference, 7 seconds faster don't change it to true race car like the bmw Z4 GT3 or 911 GT3 R. Sure the driver can push the car harder but it doesn't change the basic characteristics of the car completly. A 997 GT3 is 17 seconds faster then a 911 S (according to german Sportauto magazine) but someone who is quick with a GT3 should be quick with a 911 S as well. A E46 M3 CSL is even 30 seconds faster then its normal version. But someone who can drive the M3 CSL and its normal version to their limit will still be able to tell if a game simulating the cars feels realistic or not.

I don't race cars so I'm really not sure.

Neither do i , so i have to depend on the opinions of people who do. To say the truth i like the Forza physics very much. The way the cars behave and feel is really enjoyable. So i believed them to be more realistic. But i don't drive supercars or racecars, so i can't tell at all.

 

[sourman]

your forth options should've been; havent played forza, or even have no xbox

 

[Scaff]

I don't doubt that, but that can be said of most lightweight version of cars.
Or at least this is what you read in car magazines. M3 CSL, 911 GT3, 360 Challenge Stradale, 430 Scuderia, M3 GTS , 997 GT2 RS are all said to be like race cars, to be much harder, to have better grip (especially M3 CSL) at least in german car magazines.
But what in the end matters is the laptime difference, 7 seconds faster don't change it to true race car like the bmw Z4 GT3 or 911 GT3 R. Sure the driver can push the car harder but it doesn't change the basic characteristics of the car completly. A 997 GT3 is 17 seconds faster then a 911 S (according to german Sportauto magazine) but someone who is quick with a GT3 should be quick with a 911 S as well. A E46 M3 CSL is even 30 seconds faster then its normal version.

What matters in this case is not laptime, they are not being compared in the videos and as such we can make no comparison of them at all.

What is being discussed is the handling characteristics of the cars in question, and consistently those who have driven the LFA and LFA Nur have described them as having quite different characters.

That the Nur has a third more downforce than the standard car can just be dismissed, nor can the other changes to teh car, all of which add up to make quite a significant difference.

But someone who can drive the M3 CSL and its normal version to their limit will still be able to tell if a game simulating the cars feels realistic or not.

Yes they can, but what you have still not answered is why the description of the real LFA in the FM4 comparison is nothing like the Standard LFA in the Autoweek review, and almost exactly like the LFA Nur.

Neither do i , so i have to depend on the opinions of people who do. To say the truth i like the Forza physics very much. The way the cars behave and feel is really enjoyable. So i believed them to be more realistic. But i don't drive supercars or racecars, so i can't tell at all.

I've raced carts in my time and in working in the motor industry for two decades have driven pretty much every type of car from small family hatchbacks to race cars.

I can assure you from personal experience that the changes you are trying to pass off as not significant most certainly are.


Scaff

 

[ChrisGT]

GT5 by a pretty good shot. I've now played GT5 with my G25 and Forza 4 with the new CSR wheel. The only thing that GT5 is lacking as far as physics is shifting (without going into ****ing neutral). Everything else is far superior IMO. I was considering buying a 360 and Forza for their cars/upgrading/online, but after playing it I decided it is definitely not worth it.

 

[azrael1965]

What matters in this case is not laptime, they are not being compared in the videos and as such we can make no comparison of them at all.
What is being discussed is the handling characteristics of the cars in question, and consistently those who have driven the LFA and LFA Nur have described them as having quite different characters.
That the Nur has a third more downforce than the standard car can just be dismissed, nor can the other changes to teh car, all of which add up to make quite a significant difference.

Yes they can, but what you have still not answered is why the description of the real LFA in the FM4 comparison is nothing like the Standard LFA in the Autoweek review, and almost exactly like the LFA Nur.
I've raced carts in my time and in working in the motor industry for two decades have driven pretty much every type of car from small family hatchbacks to race cars.

I can assure you from personal experience that the changes you are trying to pass off as not significant most certainly are.

I already knew that you work in the motor industry and to say the truth your opinion (and of others in this threat) was the most significant reason why i believed that Forza 4s physics might be superior. You are certainly much more qualified then me to judge the physics.
But what i do not believe is that i should dismiss this dutch race drivers opinion , just because he didn't drive the LFA Nürburgring Edition instead of the normal version in the game. If Forzas simulation was so good, why didn't he say something like:' No it's not handling like the LFA Nürburgring Edition, more like the normal LFA' but 'In real life a super sports car like this has much more grip, and responds more direct. Therefore it skids very little.'. 'So real life sports car like this' should count for LFA, LFA Nürburgring Edition and some others as well.
I have studied medicine, where expert opinion is all important. If an expertise is needed, you try to get it from the best person available. To me this dutch driver seems to be well qualified to comment on the realism of driving games in relation to real life race cars and super cars. And i might add, that i still value your opinion, but that doesn't mean that i will dismiss others. Maybe FM4 might be better at simulating low powered cars?