Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)
- Thread starter Nicholas9889
- 2,140 comments
- 238,473 views
- 117
- JoshVdk
After playing GT5 right through, I have put in a decent effort in F4 over the last 2 weeks.
In my unknowledged opinion, it feels like GT5 has the better of the physics. and it is the one reason I have kept playing it.
F4 has more consistant graphics and is much more accessible both online and offline. And someone mentioned that the braking was better in F4, I disagree. I think the main difference between the 2 games are the cars handling and braking seems more realistic in GT5.
I haven't driven these cars in real life, at least not on a track, so I can't tell you which is more life like, but GT5 seems to be more accurate in its physics. Just my opinion. And this debate is really just one opinion vs another. There is no better game.
Oh and if you can't get a wheel for F4, check out the Microsoft wireless wheel that looks like a horse shoe. Its sooo much better than the controller.
In my unknowledged opinion, it feels like GT5 has the better of the physics. and it is the one reason I have kept playing it.
F4 has more consistant graphics and is much more accessible both online and offline. And someone mentioned that the braking was better in F4, I disagree. I think the main difference between the 2 games are the cars handling and braking seems more realistic in GT5.
I haven't driven these cars in real life, at least not on a track, so I can't tell you which is more life like, but GT5 seems to be more accurate in its physics. Just my opinion. And this debate is really just one opinion vs another. There is no better game.
Oh and if you can't get a wheel for F4, check out the Microsoft wireless wheel that looks like a horse shoe. Its sooo much better than the controller.
mykem
Premium
- 1,260
After spending another afternoon at my friend's place comparing the two games- unlike me he has the Fanatec PWTS and both consoles- I discover a few things about Forza 4/GT5 driving feel/FFB.
In GT5 when you're ascending or descending, you feel the increased and reduced weight (respectively) in the FFB. In Forza 4, I'm not feeling it as much or none at all which is a bit sad especially on track like the Fujimi Kaido.
One interesting thing I found is that in GT5 even when you park on an incline (for example, the last climb at Nurburgring GP track), let off your gas and let the car roll backward, you feel the sensation of the car falling back in the FFB. At first I thought it's because of the visual cue I'm getting but I tried it with my eyes closed and the sensation is still there.
Another thing related to weight is the height you feel when you drive a car with lower centre of gravity. In GT5, I can feel the lower (vertical) weight distribution when driving race cars. Not so much with Forza although I can still feel the more rigid chassis but mostly via the more precise tracking of the front tires. With GT5, the stiff chassis is felt through the more controlled weight shift- unlike road cars where the shifting weight can feel a bit unruly and can sometimes move outside of the four axis, with race cars it feels that its within the four corners of the car and seldom venturing past them. An interesting result and finding.
In GT5 when you're ascending or descending, you feel the increased and reduced weight (respectively) in the FFB. In Forza 4, I'm not feeling it as much or none at all which is a bit sad especially on track like the Fujimi Kaido.
One interesting thing I found is that in GT5 even when you park on an incline (for example, the last climb at Nurburgring GP track), let off your gas and let the car roll backward, you feel the sensation of the car falling back in the FFB. At first I thought it's because of the visual cue I'm getting but I tried it with my eyes closed and the sensation is still there.
Another thing related to weight is the height you feel when you drive a car with lower centre of gravity. In GT5, I can feel the lower (vertical) weight distribution when driving race cars. Not so much with Forza although I can still feel the more rigid chassis but mostly via the more precise tracking of the front tires. With GT5, the stiff chassis is felt through the more controlled weight shift- unlike road cars where the shifting weight can feel a bit unruly and can sometimes move outside of the four axis, with race cars it feels that its within the four corners of the car and seldom venturing past them. An interesting result and finding.
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- 187
- fet_thunderdome
- fetthunderdome
Let's begin saying i'm a big fan of both gt and forza, just to clarify that i'm no fanboy. That said i have to say that forza 4 was a little disappontment just when gt5 renew itself. I find that forza 4 is fun, yes, but is not a great step forward from its great predecessor. No weather and time changes. And for the audio, forza 4, just like the previous ones, has a great roar of engine but the sound pattern is a little too similar and recognisable. And simple city cars sound like a v8 with race exhaust and the same in every view. Gt 5 has GREAT engine sounds but there's a tweak: try to use a mark iv or a 787b with a home theater and dynamic audio set to advance mode, then use a chase cam and try to listen to the engine growls..
And on conclusion, gt 5 has some of the best moments like the sun rising on lemans or rome circuit. I'm from rome and i can assure that is REAL! even bis stops have the right bus on it. Nothing short of spectacular.. Forza will never reach that level..
And on conclusion, gt 5 has some of the best moments like the sun rising on lemans or rome circuit. I'm from rome and i can assure that is REAL! even bis stops have the right bus on it. Nothing short of spectacular.. Forza will never reach that level..
Dmarc_Atl
(Banned)
- 1,463
Thats not understeer. Or atleast it dont look it.
It looks like you tried to overtake him in the turn while going too fast.
At the very beginning its pretty obvious you turned your wheel right on a left hand turn,you can see your wheel turn right and your car body roll as if you made a quick right then left.
If that was understeer you wouldve slid out the corner at a different spot and hit the wall at a different angle.
- 3,232
- Wales
Its driving into a wall after getting overly excited about passing round the outside, he launched himself towards the wall before trying to correct it and not having enough grip therefor sliding into the wall. You could call it understeer, because that is what it is, but it doesn't show anything that you could not reproduce in any old arcade racer.
Essencially what he did was drove into the wall, it isnt exactly an example you could use to show understeer, because it was the result of blatant driver error. You could compare it to GT5 and pulling the handbrake to show it has oversteer.
Essencially what he did was drove into the wall, it isnt exactly an example you could use to show understeer, because it was the result of blatant driver error. You could compare it to GT5 and pulling the handbrake to show it has oversteer.
killerjimbag
(Banned)
- 4,018
- The Great White North
- abetterplaya
I'm not trying to sound like an idiot here.Having raced all the sims for many many years including Nascar 2003 for PC,iRacing,GT5,FM4 and having raced a few 100 real life races in Super Modified,you my friend lost the car because you were going to fast.Nothing to do with under steer over steer or push or what ever you want to call it.It is what it is,you lost it in that video.To sum up this endless debate that will go on until the cows come home.
#1 iRacing
GT5 and FM4 are both equal in my eyes as they both have good point's and bad point's.Go play iRacing and then you can debate what is the real driving simulator.
#1 iRacing
GT5 and FM4 are both equal in my eyes as they both have good point's and bad point's.Go play iRacing and then you can debate what is the real driving simulator.
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- 7,601
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
I got to do two laps in a 458 in the Forza 4 demo. It's the best simulator on a console at the moment. I'm rather shocked at the poll results. Either it's extreme bias for GT, or I really need to take a second try at Forza.
In Forza, the 458 didn't seem to have any artificial stability like it does in GT5. You really need to watch what you're doing because getting careless will send the car out of control, yet at the same time, as long as you're mindful of what you're doing controlling the car is pretty easy. Being careless with the throttle carries heavier consequences in Forza than in GT. In GT, just jump off the pedal to tighten your turns a little. Try that in Forza and the rear end becomes unsettled. You can catch it, but it's just better to use the throttle properly.
I didn't vote as I've only tried Forza once, but it really does seem to outclass Gran Turismo completely. I will be trying it again when I get a chance. What a bad time to not have an Xbox.
In Forza, the 458 didn't seem to have any artificial stability like it does in GT5. You really need to watch what you're doing because getting careless will send the car out of control, yet at the same time, as long as you're mindful of what you're doing controlling the car is pretty easy. Being careless with the throttle carries heavier consequences in Forza than in GT. In GT, just jump off the pedal to tighten your turns a little. Try that in Forza and the rear end becomes unsettled. You can catch it, but it's just better to use the throttle properly.
I didn't vote as I've only tried Forza once, but it really does seem to outclass Gran Turismo completely. I will be trying it again when I get a chance. What a bad time to not have an Xbox.
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- 465
- actionjeans
Hmm, well I bought a PS3 for GT5, guess I'll buy an XBOX for Forza 4 then. Anywhere I can actually play Forza 4 with a real wheel before slapping down $400 (Kinect and all that)?
edit: obviously not a fanboy. I just want the most realistic experience possible, and it's true, the engine sounds on GT5 have been in my top 3 complaint list since the game came out.
Now to convince my girlfriend this is a good idea... oh yeah Dance Party something or other. Cool.
edit: obviously not a fanboy. I just want the most realistic experience possible, and it's true, the engine sounds on GT5 have been in my top 3 complaint list since the game came out.
Now to convince my girlfriend this is a good idea... oh yeah Dance Party something or other. Cool.
- 2,504
- Upstate NY
- BWX232
Turn off aids and don't use race tires in GT5.
That car is a real handful in GT5 if you push it and you sound like you are describing exactly how it handles with some sort of driving aid on, or when using RS tires, or both.
Take all aids off including ABS, put on sport hard or comfort soft (or medium) and go online for a spin around the ring with bone stock car and come back. Even try it in arcade, the physics are similar now.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
Having spent almost three weeks solid with Forza 4, I have my own perspective to offer on all this, and the quality of the two games.
After racing in F4 and going back to GT5, the game feels much "safer." The cars don't feel quite as alive. There is also kind of a "sameness" with many of the cars in the same class: sport sedans, small mid-engined, AWD, etc, but more on that presently. They're more sure footed, more solid, more in contact with the road, especially with ABS at 1, which seems to give you all the aids on at one or two ticks, curiously. Disable ABS, set the Brake Balance lower front and rear, add one or two ticks of Stability, maybe the same of Anti-skid and or Traction Control, and now the cars are more of a challenge, and you can spin out without really braking or pushing the car hard around a turn. Set everything off, and you'd better have a firm grip on the wheel.
In may ways, Forza 4 is exceptional, and has physics on par with a racing sim. But in others, it's like some hobby build that's just not right somehow. When the game first starts for you, like Toca, it throws you into a race out of the blue with a Ferrari 458 I think, an automatic with all the aids on. It's quite an eye popping experience, giving you such a powerful car and in such a scenic setting as the winter Alps and a nicely curving course, and most decent racers shouldn't have any trouble winning. It even lets you start over if you mess up. But then the real game begins.
While F4 feels more alive, and the cars have a discernable mass to them, this isn't necessarily a good thing. Real cars just aren't quite this wobbly, especially on racing suspension. They all feel like they're on springs of various stiffness, and is no doubt the source of complaints that the cars feel floaty. Also, the cars are all ridiculously LOUD! even with the audio balance set to favor tires. Every car you race whether stock or not sounds as if it at least has a V8 and a racing muffler - or no muffler. While others have no problem with it, communication to me through the MS FFB Wheel is poor. Often it feels like a big hand controller. The tires aren't communicating how well they're gripping until they're about to lose it, or overload in turns without much warning, and then they squall loudly. What's more, I experience an annoying tendency of oversteer in every car, in which it wants to keep turning around curves above some certain speed, 50mph or so. It's as if every car has a large mass in the rear, and I have to jerk the wheel or stab the brakes to make it stop. Even the 3D perspective is a little confusing - I race in chase view, the only one that works well for me. So between that, the wobbly suspension, oversteer tendency and the reluctant tires, taking turns is a bit too experimental. If that wasn't bad enough, the bots are terrible, often as bad as GT5's bots in braking too early and hard approaching turns, but then they also drive recklessly, late braking to get ahead of you, and able to succeed (cheat) where you might not, and they will intentionally ram you, bashing you off the track in some cases.
In lower powered F and E Class cars, the kinds of sports cars we mortals tend to own, I could manage okay with all the aids off, but as I went up in classes, the cars just got to be too unstable, and I began to think of quitting entirely after just a few days. But that opening race suggested I try it with aids on, and it was somewhat better after that. Unfortunately, brake assist does little more than slow you down when you're trying to race aggressively, and ABS barely works at all. The suspensions are still too wobbly and the tires still don't communicate until the last minute, so you have to do a lot of racing to really get a feel for what the game demands of you. Doing some time runs with the dynamic racing line on with all the tracks isn't a bad idea, which is something I intend to do over my vacation.
And this all culminates in the big difference between these two games. While the Forza fans no doubt adore F4, and you'd be well advised to not be very critical in that other section if you want a pleasant visit, it's just strange to me. It doesn't feel or the cars handle like any game or racing sim I've ever experienced, other than Ferrari Challenge. Racing in anything above F Class just isn't intuitive. You have to fight the game as much as the race, at least many of us outsiders do, and between the wobbly cars and bashy bots, you will bang up your car in every race and get to enjoy the marvelous damage modeling, unless you happen to be out front way early.
Contrast this with GT5, or just about any racing sim you care to name, and there's a huge difference, though I'm going to stick to Gran Turismo. Cars tend to behave the way you expect them to. You aren't fighting the game as much as the car. You can hear the tires and juge their mood pretty well, and because of this, you "feel" the car much better around turns, and feel more in control and connected to the vehicle. The 3D perspective looks more real to me. You can attack turns without feeling lost or numb, you can hit apexes more reliably, you can aim for bumper strips, you can exit turns with authority. The cars speak to me more clearly, and I can just darn well race.
While cars in similar classes and builds feel similar, I think this is proper. Considering that most of the differences in real world car feel comes down to... well, the feel, when you have no direct sensory experience of a vehicle, you can't expect vast differences between all the cars. While it can be debated how well Gran Turismo models proper variations in different cars, I think they do a reasonably good job. Forza 4 doesn't get carried away with differences to me, which I appreciate. And frankly, I'm growing to loathe the engine racket in F4, prefering the "vacuum cleaner" sounds in GT5. Which if you listen to replays with all but the hottest supercars or race cars, the bot cars all sound like vacuums themselves.
I also have to comment on how much I've grown to despize the Top Gear license in F4. I couldn't believe it when "race events" ammounted to a stint of bowling on the Top Gear Test Track! And I haven't gone anywhere near Autovista yet, because I'm just not very fond of Jerry, and I've seen YouTubes of it, not all that impressive to me, and not too many cars either.
Still, both games have their appeal for me right now. I enjoy how viscerally alive the cars feel in Forza, even as they vex me to no end on how badly they misbehave, or how extremely hard it is to get them to do what I want. I have a few replay examples in my Storefront of the trouble I have with the oversteer factor rearing up in turns. I would have a fourth, in which my F430 politely tries to steer itself off the road, but evidently "F430 03" gets blocked by a decency filter, "bo ob" I suppose. It is the new game, and I do want to complete it, which I didn't do in F3, in order to collect some nice rides and race mod them with custom liveries.
However, GT5 is my dessert. While safer, it's such a relief to not find myself fighting the freaking universe. It's nice to feel like I'm in control of a car that makes sense, that more or less does what I want, as my PC sims and real cars do. The bots don't pick fights with me, they race, and in Arcade Mode, the higher difficulty bots are fun to race with. I don't need to face tard kids online for a good race with a full field of cars. And there are TONS of cars to choose from! Sorry Standard haters, I love them. I haven't had time to play with the DLC yet, having been sidetracked by my MMO time in Anarchy Online, as well as Battlefield 3, way too short a game. But this friday, I intend to spend some quality time with it.
Sure, I'd love for GT5 to feel more daring, challenging and lively as Forza 4, and have that marvelous selection of bodykits and that delicious Livery Editor. But I'm just not groking that other game compared to "The Real Driving Simulator."
After racing in F4 and going back to GT5, the game feels much "safer." The cars don't feel quite as alive. There is also kind of a "sameness" with many of the cars in the same class: sport sedans, small mid-engined, AWD, etc, but more on that presently. They're more sure footed, more solid, more in contact with the road, especially with ABS at 1, which seems to give you all the aids on at one or two ticks, curiously. Disable ABS, set the Brake Balance lower front and rear, add one or two ticks of Stability, maybe the same of Anti-skid and or Traction Control, and now the cars are more of a challenge, and you can spin out without really braking or pushing the car hard around a turn. Set everything off, and you'd better have a firm grip on the wheel.
In may ways, Forza 4 is exceptional, and has physics on par with a racing sim. But in others, it's like some hobby build that's just not right somehow. When the game first starts for you, like Toca, it throws you into a race out of the blue with a Ferrari 458 I think, an automatic with all the aids on. It's quite an eye popping experience, giving you such a powerful car and in such a scenic setting as the winter Alps and a nicely curving course, and most decent racers shouldn't have any trouble winning. It even lets you start over if you mess up. But then the real game begins.
While F4 feels more alive, and the cars have a discernable mass to them, this isn't necessarily a good thing. Real cars just aren't quite this wobbly, especially on racing suspension. They all feel like they're on springs of various stiffness, and is no doubt the source of complaints that the cars feel floaty. Also, the cars are all ridiculously LOUD! even with the audio balance set to favor tires. Every car you race whether stock or not sounds as if it at least has a V8 and a racing muffler - or no muffler. While others have no problem with it, communication to me through the MS FFB Wheel is poor. Often it feels like a big hand controller. The tires aren't communicating how well they're gripping until they're about to lose it, or overload in turns without much warning, and then they squall loudly. What's more, I experience an annoying tendency of oversteer in every car, in which it wants to keep turning around curves above some certain speed, 50mph or so. It's as if every car has a large mass in the rear, and I have to jerk the wheel or stab the brakes to make it stop. Even the 3D perspective is a little confusing - I race in chase view, the only one that works well for me. So between that, the wobbly suspension, oversteer tendency and the reluctant tires, taking turns is a bit too experimental. If that wasn't bad enough, the bots are terrible, often as bad as GT5's bots in braking too early and hard approaching turns, but then they also drive recklessly, late braking to get ahead of you, and able to succeed (cheat) where you might not, and they will intentionally ram you, bashing you off the track in some cases.
In lower powered F and E Class cars, the kinds of sports cars we mortals tend to own, I could manage okay with all the aids off, but as I went up in classes, the cars just got to be too unstable, and I began to think of quitting entirely after just a few days. But that opening race suggested I try it with aids on, and it was somewhat better after that. Unfortunately, brake assist does little more than slow you down when you're trying to race aggressively, and ABS barely works at all. The suspensions are still too wobbly and the tires still don't communicate until the last minute, so you have to do a lot of racing to really get a feel for what the game demands of you. Doing some time runs with the dynamic racing line on with all the tracks isn't a bad idea, which is something I intend to do over my vacation.
And this all culminates in the big difference between these two games. While the Forza fans no doubt adore F4, and you'd be well advised to not be very critical in that other section if you want a pleasant visit, it's just strange to me. It doesn't feel or the cars handle like any game or racing sim I've ever experienced, other than Ferrari Challenge. Racing in anything above F Class just isn't intuitive. You have to fight the game as much as the race, at least many of us outsiders do, and between the wobbly cars and bashy bots, you will bang up your car in every race and get to enjoy the marvelous damage modeling, unless you happen to be out front way early.
Contrast this with GT5, or just about any racing sim you care to name, and there's a huge difference, though I'm going to stick to Gran Turismo. Cars tend to behave the way you expect them to. You aren't fighting the game as much as the car. You can hear the tires and juge their mood pretty well, and because of this, you "feel" the car much better around turns, and feel more in control and connected to the vehicle. The 3D perspective looks more real to me. You can attack turns without feeling lost or numb, you can hit apexes more reliably, you can aim for bumper strips, you can exit turns with authority. The cars speak to me more clearly, and I can just darn well race.
While cars in similar classes and builds feel similar, I think this is proper. Considering that most of the differences in real world car feel comes down to... well, the feel, when you have no direct sensory experience of a vehicle, you can't expect vast differences between all the cars. While it can be debated how well Gran Turismo models proper variations in different cars, I think they do a reasonably good job. Forza 4 doesn't get carried away with differences to me, which I appreciate. And frankly, I'm growing to loathe the engine racket in F4, prefering the "vacuum cleaner" sounds in GT5. Which if you listen to replays with all but the hottest supercars or race cars, the bot cars all sound like vacuums themselves.
I also have to comment on how much I've grown to despize the Top Gear license in F4. I couldn't believe it when "race events" ammounted to a stint of bowling on the Top Gear Test Track! And I haven't gone anywhere near Autovista yet, because I'm just not very fond of Jerry, and I've seen YouTubes of it, not all that impressive to me, and not too many cars either.
Still, both games have their appeal for me right now. I enjoy how viscerally alive the cars feel in Forza, even as they vex me to no end on how badly they misbehave, or how extremely hard it is to get them to do what I want. I have a few replay examples in my Storefront of the trouble I have with the oversteer factor rearing up in turns. I would have a fourth, in which my F430 politely tries to steer itself off the road, but evidently "F430 03" gets blocked by a decency filter, "bo ob" I suppose. It is the new game, and I do want to complete it, which I didn't do in F3, in order to collect some nice rides and race mod them with custom liveries.
However, GT5 is my dessert. While safer, it's such a relief to not find myself fighting the freaking universe. It's nice to feel like I'm in control of a car that makes sense, that more or less does what I want, as my PC sims and real cars do. The bots don't pick fights with me, they race, and in Arcade Mode, the higher difficulty bots are fun to race with. I don't need to face tard kids online for a good race with a full field of cars. And there are TONS of cars to choose from! Sorry Standard haters, I love them. I haven't had time to play with the DLC yet, having been sidetracked by my MMO time in Anarchy Online, as well as Battlefield 3, way too short a game. But this friday, I intend to spend some quality time with it.
Sure, I'd love for GT5 to feel more daring, challenging and lively as Forza 4, and have that marvelous selection of bodykits and that delicious Livery Editor. But I'm just not groking that other game compared to "The Real Driving Simulator."
- 465
- actionjeans
Well great. Now I'm totally on the fence. I say again, does anyone know where I can try out Forza 4 with a wheel without dropping $400, and ending up hating it?
Some of what TenD says he finds a negative, I might find a positive. All the reviews I have read have not done a specific physic comparison, and those that have are siding with GT5 as having better physics, but fail to reason why.
I don't use ABS on GT5. My laptimes are better, as you can indeed brake later, and you can modulate the brakes to pivot the car on turn-in. I would just say screw it and move to iRacing, but I don't have a 55" TV I can play that on, and with GT5 (or potentially Forza4), I do. I say this just to point out that I don't like ANY sort of dumbed down physics model that is designed for people that, well, can't drive, and I have seen a recurring theme with F4 reviews mentioning that it's noob friendly. This is not a plus for me, but again, they fail to go in depth and mention what it's like to drive with no physics.
I find that with the 2.0 update, GT5 has moved back into permanent residency in my PS3, and I am enjoying the added control/feedback I can feel. I still hate the engine noise, don't see how F4 having loud engines can be seen as a negative, but I do use tire noise, particularly with braking, to gauge if I'm about to lock them up or not.
Needlessly sloppy handing would be a minus, but saying the cars feel more alive sounds like a plus to me; I've also read on other reviews that trucks handle like trucks on F4, whereas GT5 they do NOT. At ALL. Same thing with muscle cars, you can tune the 70' Chevelle to handle close to a Lotus Elise, which has always bothered me.
And I LIKE Jeremy Clarkson, Top Gear is my favorite show, period. And to TenD - the Microsoft Wheel is a piece of crap, so much of what you are saying could be directly linked to that.
So I now have no idea what I'm going to do.
Some of what TenD says he finds a negative, I might find a positive. All the reviews I have read have not done a specific physic comparison, and those that have are siding with GT5 as having better physics, but fail to reason why.
I don't use ABS on GT5. My laptimes are better, as you can indeed brake later, and you can modulate the brakes to pivot the car on turn-in. I would just say screw it and move to iRacing, but I don't have a 55" TV I can play that on, and with GT5 (or potentially Forza4), I do. I say this just to point out that I don't like ANY sort of dumbed down physics model that is designed for people that, well, can't drive, and I have seen a recurring theme with F4 reviews mentioning that it's noob friendly. This is not a plus for me, but again, they fail to go in depth and mention what it's like to drive with no physics.
I find that with the 2.0 update, GT5 has moved back into permanent residency in my PS3, and I am enjoying the added control/feedback I can feel. I still hate the engine noise, don't see how F4 having loud engines can be seen as a negative, but I do use tire noise, particularly with braking, to gauge if I'm about to lock them up or not.
Needlessly sloppy handing would be a minus, but saying the cars feel more alive sounds like a plus to me; I've also read on other reviews that trucks handle like trucks on F4, whereas GT5 they do NOT. At ALL. Same thing with muscle cars, you can tune the 70' Chevelle to handle close to a Lotus Elise, which has always bothered me.
And I LIKE Jeremy Clarkson, Top Gear is my favorite show, period. And to TenD - the Microsoft Wheel is a piece of crap, so much of what you are saying could be directly linked to that.
So I now have no idea what I'm going to do.
- 7,601
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
Who says I did?
Of course I'm describing the 458 on CS with aids off, except ABS1 since the car comes with it.
The demo I tried had a wheel, though it was the awful wireless wheel that was as unintuitive as Forza 4 was intuitive. The demo was set up at a local Best Buy.
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- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
Voted.
Forza.
Forza.
- 7,601
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
I agree on ABS, I drive with it off when I feel like it though it's not as hard as everyone makes it out to be either, but back to the subject at hand: here's the thing. It's not like cars don't have ABS. ABS being more than ABS is a flaw/omission in the physics itself. The Forza demo I tried had ABS too, yet it still felt better. The same goes for RS tires. You shouldn't count driving on RS against the player, but against the physics. I honestly think even FM3 had better racing tires than GT5, or at least the race cars felt more race car like.
And ABS doesn't have anything to do with the weight shifting off the rear wheels when you're driving via throttle which is what stuck out the most in the FM4 demo. Take brakes out of the equation completely and Forza is still clearly in the lead.
Neither 458 is particularly hard to drive, and that's not really the issue. Realism is what we're after, and that has nothing to do with difficulty. What I was saying was that the 458 in Forza was a lot more complex and detailed than it is in GT5.
NFS Shift made cars much more challenging to drive than either GT or Forza, but that did not make it more realistic.
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,463
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
I've replied to your issue with oversteer with this video before but you seem to have missed it, so I will try again.
I asked for an example of a car that suffered badly and you stated the '04 TT with racing suspension, full aero and racing slicks; when combined with the last tight turn at Silverstone would do nothing but oversteer and couldn't be gotten around above 50mph.
To be honest as this video shows....
...my experience could not be more different. All driver aids bar ABS off and not a hint of oversteer, in fact the telemetry shows understeer from mid corner onward and a cornering speed of 55mph.
I also can't agree about the 'wobble' with all suspension, here's the same TT and the same corner, this time with the race suspension springs and dampers set as stiff as they can go. Oh and I set the ride high up as well to maximise load transfer.
Lower cornering speed and more understeer (as you would expect), but no 'wobble' in fact a visibly stiff car is the result.
For me what we have in these two videos is the physics in FM4 reacting exactly as I would expect for the car, corner and set-up (and I've driven that corner a few time in the real world as well).
I have no issue with regard to you preferring the sound, race events, etc in GT5, those are opinions and while I disagree that doesn't make you wrong.
However in regard to the 'every car does nothing but oversteer and wobble' claims, I've simply not been able to replicate these in any way.
Even when you do get a car that has a natural tendency to oversteer, its no more excessive than it should be...
....when compared to the real thing.
Scaff
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This sound issue i dont get. PD has got different sounds relative to the view used. They have also put in external wind noise plus each car has got different acoustic shielding as would IRL. So race cars due to a lack of sound proofing engines are louder. A v6 merc thats better sound proofed will not produce much roar from cockpit. I also think the tyre squeal has been recreated very well to help you decide what your wheels are doing. I do not get such levels of refinement from forzas soundscape. I prefer gt approach more realistic...
Conclusive proof that Forza beats GT5 even when going backwards
http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/top-gear-forza-4-dunsfold-audi-rs4-video-2011-10-27
http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/top-gear-forza-4-dunsfold-audi-rs4-video-2011-10-27
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
That's a bit overcondensed from what I posted. To be more specific, I'd say that the Forza 4 cars have ballistic properties in line with what I find in a superb racing sim like Live For Speed. If you jam on the gas or brakes, the car will lurch and lean quite realistically. If you collide with another car or one of the immobile trackside objects, the car will bounce around on its suspension in a very lifelike way. Violent wrecks and pileups look amazing, and I wish the stupid replays wouldn't stop at the finish line so I could save more of them.
In contrast, GT5 is more sedate. If you collide with another car and both of you go spinning, it looks marvelous. But in other respects, the suspension and car are dialed back a bit. They don't lurch, lean or kneel quite as much. If you run into a wall, sometimes it will bounce around fairly realistically, but at other times the car will simply come to a stop with hardly a shudder.
The feedback in Forza with the admittedly substandard MS FFB Wheel is tolerable, but very basic. I'm still wondering if the Fanatec wheel makes all the difference in the world, as some people swear by it, but I have to question the wisdom of leaving a decent wheel to a boutique German export company which sells the thing with pedals and shifter as expensive options. Anyway, tires are basically either silent or drowned out by the ridiculous engine sound of your car unless you're threatening the grip envelope quite hard. And with my experience of the car dancing along an uncertain line between being in control and oversteering without much warning whatsoever, or overloading the tires, this makes driving aggressively a chore. This uncertain feel unless you have the Fanatec wheel is probably why so many consider Forza 4's cars to feel floaty.
While GT5's cars feel more sedate in contrast, they also won't wig out on you unless you have all aids off including ABS. In that case, even with some Stability Control and Traction Control, perhaps some Anti-skid, the cars can still be a handful. With no ABS, the cars can lock up with a light touch on the brake, so it's wise to dial back the Brake Balance (pressure) front and back to lower values, and this will depend on your driving style what works best.
Forza is one of those games you simply have to experience yourself, because obviously from a number of posts, you either love the thing or it gives you headaches. Some people flat out hate the series. For this reason, I recommend everyone at least try it and see how it hits them, because in this game, personal taste is everything.
I'll have to take your word for it, unless the vid is on your storefront, because I can see nothing of telemetry, HUD or anything.
First, I think you might be overstating my post a bit.
Watching the speedo closely as I dare, I can see it getting up to 52mph or so in my cars lately, various rides such as a late model Mustang, Corvette, Audi R8, Gallardo, Ferrari F430, mostly with racing tires and suspension.In particular, the final tight turn on Silverstone before the sweeping curve into the straight in most games I've played, you attack it at between 55 and 65 mph depending on tire compound and suspension. With an Audi TT on racing suspension and Pirelli racing tires
However, I did say that other than a slight camber, my suspensions are stock. I have no doubt that if you make the suspensions as stiff as can be, they might feel like they've been replaced by steel rods.
I did say that I would appreciate any setting suggestions, but either you missed that or forgot about it, because I haven't heard back on that.
I did say that I use the MS FFB wheel, and that may be a big factor because no one can go to the local cheap store and pick up a Fanatec in the Americas. Or the accessories to properly use it. And it's definitely not a bargain to say the least, nor to mention how long it can take to ship.
I also did finally post some videos of my own in my storefront a few days ago, which will of course have all the views and telemetry for you to cross examine at your pleasure if you download them into your 360. The nick is Nigel Fox. Unfortunately the official Forza site is so mucked up, I'll have to have a mod sort out giving me access to my old account.
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,463
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
If it was that single post, then maybe. However you 've posted numerous times on this topic, for example...
I'm afraid a video wouldn't reveal much, other than my turns looking a little twitchy and nervous.
The only adjustments I made were suspension camber increased slightly, like 0.9- front and 0.7- rear, and brakes were adjusted to 65% pressure to allow me to disable ABS. Tracks are... well, every track, every type of turn except the very tightest. If you have any advice, I'm open.
- 2011 VW Fox, with sports tires
- '73 BMW 2002 Turbo, stock
- '09 SEAT Ibiza Cupra, street brakes
- '85 Toyota Trueno, racing brakes, suspension and tires, Forza aero kit front and back
- '94 NISSAN 240SX SE, racing brakes, suspension and tires, Forza aero front, something stylish rear
- '09 VW Scirocco GT, street brakes and tires
- '08 Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X, street tires
- '97 Mitsubishi GTO, sports brakes, street tires
- '10 VW Golf R street brakes and tires
- '08 BMW Z4, racing brakes, suspension and tires
- '90 Mercedes-Benz 190 E 2.5, racing brakes, suspension and tires
- '02 Chevy Corvette C5, racing suspension and brakes, street tires, Forza aero kit front and back
- '06 Chevy Corvette C6, racing suspension and brakes, Forza aero kit front and back
- '04 Audi TT, racing brakes, suspension and tires, Forza aero kit front and back
...and with comments such as the ones in bold I'm sure you can understand why people are under the impression that its every car and every corner.
So taking your posting history on the subject into account (rather than just one post) I don't think I'm overstating it at all.
Given that a F1 car generates 1.8 g and does 62mph through Luffield I think speeds in the region of 50mph - 55mph are more than realistic for a car with racing suspension and slicks.
BTW - a quick bit of maths (MPH2 = 15 * G * R) would have 50mph equating to 1.17g and 55mph 1.42g, which is more than realistic given a car with racing suspension and racing slicks. 52 mph would be 1.25g. (all peak figures)
Keep in mind that the track at Luffield is quite wide so a margin for error does exists, but the maths gives it a radius of approx 142ft
As is the TT in my first video and that doesn't suffer from oversteer or wobble?However, I did say that other than a slight camber, my suspensions are stock. I have no doubt that if you make the suspensions as stiff as can be, they might feel like they've been replaced by steel rods.
My reply was in the form of the video and my opinion is that you don't need to reduce oversteer with the stock settings as I don't get any (quite the opposite).
I use the MS wheel and the controller, so nothing fancy here, nor any problems that you describe.
I will have a look for your videos, in regard to the Forza site I've not had any issues myself, but I do recall that you have mentioned having problems in the past with FM3.
Scaff
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- 465
- actionjeans
Did some maths on this (for me anyway) - new wheel, Fanatec CSR, plus pedals, plus shifter - $460. Xbox w/ Kinect - $400 - Forza 4 - $60. Probably have to make or buy a new cockpit - $30 to $600.
I'm curious about this game, and I've seen some more video reviews that make me want to try it, but $920 minimum to try it, up to $1520 with a decent prebuilt cockpit - I can think of better ways to spend my money, but still curious. It sucks that there is no Logitech support, as my G27 is a decent wheel, but having to buy a $460 wheel (no discount kit with shifter and pedals? How are you supposed to use the CSR wheel without pedals?) to even try this out seriously adds to the money outlay...
I'm curious about this game, and I've seen some more video reviews that make me want to try it, but $920 minimum to try it, up to $1520 with a decent prebuilt cockpit - I can think of better ways to spend my money, but still curious. It sucks that there is no Logitech support, as my G27 is a decent wheel, but having to buy a $460 wheel (no discount kit with shifter and pedals? How are you supposed to use the CSR wheel without pedals?) to even try this out seriously adds to the money outlay...
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
On that point, that all my cars oversteer in every turn, yes, I stand by that. Edit: with a caveat. After some 50-odd races, I've stopped a few dozen events ago from racing in the way I approach every other racing game, and have migrated back to my old Forza style. So now, every turn doesn't suffer this tendency to keep steering, since I'm watching the way the nose points and how the wheel behaves much more closely, and more twitch-ily. But the tendency for the car to keep wanting to turn on its own is still ever present, and manifests in a good deal of my turns. I guess I'll do some replays of some practice laps in a few cars and just not fight the oversteer, and see how it goes.
Then I have to wonder if Toca and the GTRs can be said to be any more realistic than Gran Turismo in that regard, because 60+ is what my friends and I have done at that point in those games, and I did note how similar the racing games performed versus each other which featured Silverstone. I assumed that was some sort of benchmark.
This is just what I did, minus the Kinect, just to play the Forza series. Unless you want to sit there rock steady just to twist your head slightly to look to turns, or want to wave your hands around at the handful of Autovista models, you don't need or want Kinect. If I had to sit still and just nudge my head left or right a bit for turn looking, it would drive me crazy.
But since I don't like any of the 360 library besides Forza, I spent about $770 myself just to play the one series.I also have to question how good the Fanatec is, because that outlay for a wheel is rather nuts. I do have the G25 so I wouldn't have to have pedals, though the shifter would be nice. But that price - $330 plus shipping? - still isn't exactly cheap.
Anyway, back to painting my Ford GT, and then on to my newly downloaded GT5 DLC!
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- 465
- actionjeans
This is just what I did, minus the Kinect, just to play the Forza series. Unless you want to sit there rock steady just to twist your head slightly to look to turns, or want to wave your hands around at the handful of Autovista models, you don't need or want Kinect. If I had to sit still and just nudge my head left or right a bit for turn looking, it would drive me crazy.
I also have to question how good the Fanatec is, because that outlay for a wheel is rather nuts. I do have the G25 so I wouldn't have to have pedals, though the shifter would be nice. But that price - $330 plus shipping? - still isn't exactly cheap.
Anyway, back to painting my Ford GT, and then on to my newly downloaded GT5 DLC!
Well, the Kinect would primarily be a justification tool for my girlfriend who thought some of the workout/dance stuff looked cool. Personally, I'm sure I'd never use it, but if I bought a 360 without it, then she'd be pissed.
I'll wait and see what happens with pricing. I could save money if they bundle the 360 and Forza for xmas, and of course if they sold the Fanatec wheel as a kit. Always the possibility too of a patch being released to support Logitech wheels, which makes pricing moot, and I'd pick it up that weekend. I'm not cheap, but I hate getting a bad deal on something when in 2 months I could have saved $300. Especially since I still dig GT5.
It's looking good for Forza 4 - I've seen some more reviews, and saw a very thoughtful post by someone on some forum somewhere... his statement was something like "Forza 4 physics are better than GT5, but you do have to work a lot more setting the cars up to make them drivable". Which made total sense to me.
So I'll be picking it up at some point, but hopefully they put out a package deal that can save me a bit of $$$'s - it's always going to be the most expensive when it first comes out.
edit: Oh, and the Fanatec CSR wheel is supposedly top notch - here's a good review on it, and how it compares to the GT2 wheel:
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- 27,387
- Toronto
- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
Well, now that I've had a while with FM4 (and this being my first serious stint with the series after only about 2-3 weeks with FM3), I'd like to add my little bit (even though Scaff has covered 90% of what I'd like to say about the series, so I recommend reading his posts).
The greatest difference I've found between the two games, physics-wise, has been the tire modelling. T10 made a big song and dance about the Pirelli sponsorship, and people were skeptical prior to release. If there's anything you can take away from my post, please, take this: the tire modelling has transformed this game. It was handy to have Spec 2.0 come out for GT5 when it did; it provides a very handy comparison, and while GT still feels "right", in a hard-to-quantify way, Forza doesn't just squeak past in the tire model department, it feels far better, in my opinion. I unfortunately don't have a wheel yet (baby-steps, as I too made the trek to Xbox 360 land just for the one series), but will be trying a friend's out ASAP, but even on the controller, the game gives out all the right messages to me about what each of the four corners of my car are up to. I've been playing with all aids off from the get-go, other than sans clutch, and the initial learning curve was steep, but I chalked that down to mostly unknown tracks, or for ones I did know from the GT series, different braking points.
Ah, the brakes. I've played both games sans ABS, and I find it much better to hit that sweet spot of maximum braking force in Forza. GT5 had the advantage of my wheel, but when that old thing finally packed it all in about two months ago, I had to resort to just the controller, but even before that, I always approached braking with nervousness, never quite sure at which point the brakes would lock up. In FM4, it's much easier to find that point, for me. Another interesting contrast is that, for the most part, most cars had roughly similar braking zones in GT5. Obviously race cars had shorter distances with their downforce, and comically different-sized opponents like a Fireblade and a Tank Car do have different lengths, but by and large, I found most cars needed roughly the same braking zones (as evidenced by that blinking indicator). Not so in Forza - I find massively different levels, seeming to take in the weight distribution, tire width, pressure, and compound, and even the brake specs into consideration. I'd be very curious to know what sorts of variables both games use for their brake statistics.
Lastly, suspension, and much like above, I'd love to know how far in detail both games go. I know Dan has mentioned they've modelled different suspension setups (double wishbone, live axle, etc), and there is definitely a vast amount of behaviours on display here, with the massive old muscle cars tipping into turns like grandpa after too many whiskeys to the flat-out brutality of the 458 Challenge. I won't pretend to know a whole lot about the myriad variables, but the cars do "feel" right, and to those familiar with GT5, once getting past the differences in controller, HUD, and views, it will eventually feel quite similar. It doesn't hurt that every car has a proper cockpit view to aid in immersion, though there's also a handy base-of-the-windshield view, though it does feel a bit too narrowed, almost slightly fish-eyed. I'm not much of a fan of the chase cams just because they're a bit too loose - GT5's is too tight, so if I were forced back into the chase cam, I'd prefer something in between.
All that said, neither game does physics badly, they both are the pinnacles of their respective systems. But I won't deny that what is tempting me to return to GT5 more isn't the physics anymore - it's some content that FM4 doesn't have (some old favourite cars, Spa and some other tracks, etc etc). Physics-wise, especially in regards to tires, FM4 is just fantastic.
The greatest difference I've found between the two games, physics-wise, has been the tire modelling. T10 made a big song and dance about the Pirelli sponsorship, and people were skeptical prior to release. If there's anything you can take away from my post, please, take this: the tire modelling has transformed this game. It was handy to have Spec 2.0 come out for GT5 when it did; it provides a very handy comparison, and while GT still feels "right", in a hard-to-quantify way, Forza doesn't just squeak past in the tire model department, it feels far better, in my opinion. I unfortunately don't have a wheel yet (baby-steps, as I too made the trek to Xbox 360 land just for the one series), but will be trying a friend's out ASAP, but even on the controller, the game gives out all the right messages to me about what each of the four corners of my car are up to. I've been playing with all aids off from the get-go, other than sans clutch, and the initial learning curve was steep, but I chalked that down to mostly unknown tracks, or for ones I did know from the GT series, different braking points.
Ah, the brakes. I've played both games sans ABS, and I find it much better to hit that sweet spot of maximum braking force in Forza. GT5 had the advantage of my wheel, but when that old thing finally packed it all in about two months ago, I had to resort to just the controller, but even before that, I always approached braking with nervousness, never quite sure at which point the brakes would lock up. In FM4, it's much easier to find that point, for me. Another interesting contrast is that, for the most part, most cars had roughly similar braking zones in GT5. Obviously race cars had shorter distances with their downforce, and comically different-sized opponents like a Fireblade and a Tank Car do have different lengths, but by and large, I found most cars needed roughly the same braking zones (as evidenced by that blinking indicator). Not so in Forza - I find massively different levels, seeming to take in the weight distribution, tire width, pressure, and compound, and even the brake specs into consideration. I'd be very curious to know what sorts of variables both games use for their brake statistics.
Lastly, suspension, and much like above, I'd love to know how far in detail both games go. I know Dan has mentioned they've modelled different suspension setups (double wishbone, live axle, etc), and there is definitely a vast amount of behaviours on display here, with the massive old muscle cars tipping into turns like grandpa after too many whiskeys to the flat-out brutality of the 458 Challenge. I won't pretend to know a whole lot about the myriad variables, but the cars do "feel" right, and to those familiar with GT5, once getting past the differences in controller, HUD, and views, it will eventually feel quite similar. It doesn't hurt that every car has a proper cockpit view to aid in immersion, though there's also a handy base-of-the-windshield view, though it does feel a bit too narrowed, almost slightly fish-eyed. I'm not much of a fan of the chase cams just because they're a bit too loose - GT5's is too tight, so if I were forced back into the chase cam, I'd prefer something in between.
All that said, neither game does physics badly, they both are the pinnacles of their respective systems. But I won't deny that what is tempting me to return to GT5 more isn't the physics anymore - it's some content that FM4 doesn't have (some old favourite cars, Spa and some other tracks, etc etc). Physics-wise, especially in regards to tires, FM4 is just fantastic.
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