Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[Saidur_Ali]

Are you actually aware of how much down-force that thing generates? It can produce up to 750kgs of downforce and corner at around 1.45g!!! That's over half the cars curb weight and as a result it will corner like that at speed. Have you ever actually driven a car that generates true downforce at speed?

You keep going back to basing your opinions on trying a very small selection of the cars in a demo, and comments such as "RWD cars with high horsepower have the traction and understeer behaviour of a low BHP FWD hatchback" are simply inaccurate.

Do you know anyone with a 360 and a copy of FM4 (or rent a copy) get hold of a Morgan in it and let me know if that behaves like a low BHP FWD hatch, because right now you comments are starting to look more and more ridiculous.


Scaff

That goes for the Ferrari 458, Mercury Cougar and the M5 in the demo too. There is a small selection of cars in the demo though and the findings are similar to FM3 in this regard. It is not downforce in high speed corners we are really talking about but it is low speed stuff, 2nd and 3rd gear stuff, exits off corners. Never have but I understand how downforce should work, Ferrari Virtual Academy is the best I've experienced for modern F1 cars. I actually drove the F10 in GT5 today around the Nurburgring GP to test out the slightly improved GT5 physics and you wouldn't believe the lap time I did. I did the exact same time Alonso did in qualifying this year in the 150° Italia after setting two valid laps. Thought I'd share that, imagine the chances. I think the Formula physics in GT5 is too forgiving but it is getting there. Needs to add a bit more loose feel to it.

The cars slide about like the Cougar, but it is constant correcting in the same motion, it is like fooling people to think it is realistic, but really all you are doing is going back and fourth with the steering wheel / analog stick without requiring that much precision at all as the car will stick. I expect traction like in 2nd gear out of exits in the Morgan to behave like a low BHP FWD car going by my experience of FM3 and FM4 demo. Obviously I expect it to exit corners quicker though . My friends are mainly PS3 or PC gamers so definately won't be able to borrow FM4. I will most likely just wait to get a copy of FM4 LCE edition like I did with FM3 LCE edition quite cheaply. Usually drops down by quite a bit in a few months and I'm in no rush as the physics have left me disappointed.

 

[Scaff]

I expect traction like in 2nd gear out of exits in the Morgan to behave like a low BHP FWD car going by my experience of FM3 and FM4 demo.

Then you are in for a very big surprise indeed.

However don't take my word for it, have a read of a couple of posts that link to articles and videos of someone who has driven an F10 M5 (pre-production, production and in FM4)...

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6053212#post6053212


and a WRX STi

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6052598#post6052598

.....given his background its pretty hard to dismiss his depth of knowledge when it comes to how a car should and does handle, be sure to follow the links to the videos as well.


Scaff



Scaff

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Then you are in for a very big surprise indeed.


Scaff

I doubt it as my experience seems different to some of the Forza guys in the Forza section even with FM3 and also with FM4 demo. I just happen to get the grippier version of the game / demo all the time when it comes to anything related to Forza . What was your experience of the cars in the demo regards to traction out of exits of low speed corners, did you go 100% throttle straight away or did your experience vary and was like the Morgan?

About the Evo article. I can fully understand why Chris feels like that in regards to FM4. FM4 does a good job of fooling people and the way he is driving on the pad he has very little smoothness, it will further enhance the look of sliding is real. It is like throwing a car full lock in and powering then putting full opposite lock. Basics are there but when you go to drive on the edge, there really isn't an edge to the physics. Driving in virtual and real is a lot different due to the physical experience. You drive through what your eyes and body feels IRL while in games you go on just visual and force feedback. That is why some drivers will not get on with simulators too easily, Forza is very forgiving to drive so it will knock down that barrier so inexperienced virtual drivers driving on no assists could drive if they grasp the basic concepts of no ABS driving and smooth steering and apply it to the game. With a pad this is harder to do. Chris was impressed with the Nurburgring GP track in Forza, and considering the GT5 version of that track looks a lot better then you can see, he is in the state of "Wow, cars look like they are real, cars oversteer like they are real and the track looks like real. Amazing that a video game can do this."

A person like Chris using a pad, maybe he is inexperienced on it too will find it hard to find the subtleties of the physics and he is using aids and such like normal steering. I think that goes for about 98-99% of Forza players who played the demo too. I try and relate the game physics to actual car reviews and onboards to see where the game is going wrong and right. I think I should be better than most of these car journalists at virtual simulation driving and grasping what the car is doing quicker. They will obviously be better in real life due to more experience .

If we are going to go on physics by a persons opinion on saying it is realistic by trying to relate everything from real to the game even if it is vague, then I guess if you ask these people they would say the same about GT5.

List of names include:

Sebastian Vettel
Sebastian Loeb
Jeff Gordon
Bernd Schneider
Tony Brakohiapa
Kaz Yamauchi
Lucas Ordoñez

and I'm sure there are many others.

Like this for example (This is for the FM3 game and I'm sure you will disagree with his comments regards to FM3 physics engine):

I’m impressed with the overall level of detail in Forza, with the tracks and scenery as well as with the cars. Forza is slightly more interesting visually than GT5 and easier to see all the details inside the cockpits. The vehicle graphics are at least equal to GT5’s.

Forza’s physics engine, however, doesn’t feel as comprehensive, as if it were using the one that was employed in Gran Turismo 3 A-spec or GT4 (10 or so years ago!). The experience, to me, is more of an arcade game. It’s easier to jump in and start playing with less of a learning curve. With the GTI, you simply get somewhere close to your braking marks and turn in, and the car zips around the corner under throttle. GT5’s GTI is far touchier, with the front end washing out more dramatically if you carry too much speed. You must be much more precise and have greater finesse to master GT5. I noticed several corners that were particularly tricky in GT5 were surprisingly easy to ace in Forza.

This is answer from Kaz talking about the dynamics of racing cars in GT:

How closely do you believe the dynamics of these racing cars can be recreated in a game like Gran Turismo?

From my own racing experience, I don't think there is any discrepancy between the two. It's very good learning material! Jordan and Luca are proof of that. And I know that Sebatian Vettel and Lewis Hamilton play Gran Turismo all the time.

Kaz please tell me their PSN ID's I will be forever grateful .

Kaz haas a good idea as he is good at both and he could tell that FM3 was not quite a sim (Maybe bias or the feel of the steering assist). I noticed the steering aid in something like the first 15 minutes playing FM3, I didn't know how to check telemetry though but I could feel something defiantely was not right. Went on YouTube and saw someone else with the same problem and called it active steering. Seeing how much it took control explained why it was so hard to lose control of a car in FM3. It is gone to an extent in FM4 this but the high traction is there and still drives very similar to FM3. You can still pull of incredible saves without trying in FM4 still but it is getting there hopefully. I think the physics need to be built up again from the base again as when you drive the game it feels like the old physics engine with different data. The brunt of the active steering is removed so cars should feel more alive in FM4 but all the underlying stuff in FM3 is still there. New tyre data does not solve this as how the game interprets this data is the same, or very similar. Maybe I will have to wait for next-generation of Xbox for T10 to rewrite the physics engine so the code which affects traction gets changed. They can refine this physics engine for this generation but I think they need a rework to make the handling more natural and traction grip more progressive. Braking seems to quite a change in FM4 though.

 

[Bereaver]

@Scaff you go by posts for superiority?

I suggest you use your own judgement as a single in my situation and stop trying to be the king of GTPlanet. Just because I don't have many posts doesn't mean I haven't been around a while. Not to mention my first email account was lost and is unrecoverable due to it being a work email and a job change.

I wasn't insulting anyone in mass. It was for who fit the category.

On the other hand, you directly insulted me. Way to push someone away that isn't commenting enough already.

But then again, you did answer to my call, I just wish so it would have been without direct confrontation.

So, I thank you for answering me.....

I think I get agitated a little to fast... I've been in China too long lol.

 

[pjs123456789]

I manage to get around the same tracks times for more than one car in gt5 to it real life car. Also you can correct cars in gt5 with throttle and steering precision, I have done it more than once.

 

[BroncosXR8]

I have recently got myself an Xbox just to play Forza 4 (the XB GT Hardtop was to big of a drawcard!)

Unfortunately because Xbox wont work with Logitech👎👎👎 I have to use the contoller for F4 and my DFPro with GT5.

I have logged WAY to many hours hot lapping in GT5 haha.

However on topic: Forza 4 has much better braking 'feel' and that's about the only time I rate it over GT5.
It also seems as if my little Ford Ka has the torque of a V8 from a standstill as it will whip up the tyres in 2nd gear no problem my V8 falcon XR8 wont even do that!

 

[sandboxgod]

I voted gt5. Not my fault my wheel (t500rs) doesnt work on the xbox. I blame microsoft's stinky XID technology for that. Maybe later one of these days I will get a Fanatec csr to give them both an equal shake. But for now my heavily biased vote goes to gt5 👍

 

[thechosenwonton]

Forza 4 doesn't have really high traction at all, nor does it have anything close to prefect traction in any way. In fact the traction budget for tyres in both is fairly close, the difference is that tyres in GT5 have almost zero progression (the go from grip to no grip very, very quickly) which is fairly accurate for a racing tyre but not for a road tyre. The tyre modelling in Forza 4, particularly for road spec tyres, behaves in a much more realistic manner.


Scaff

I'd of agreed with you before 2.0 Scaff, but seriously, if you're basing this off of the older model, try it again. As I mentioned I haven't driven Forza4, but I can say that the new physics model have had a noticeable affect in comfort and sport tires in the exact regard you're speaking off; I noticed it after about a month break straight away - I was able to hold slides (and recover some that got a bit too far out of hand) with throttle much, much easier than before - not sure if what they changed; but it's obvious to me mass direction change, and tire envelopes have certainly been updated.
Also noticed that the tires don't just SPIN UP to max revs if you nail it like they used too - they spin up much slower, as would be in real life, so you are able to on/off/on/off the throttle to adjust your line with much more confidence than before.

 

[maxpontiac]

GT vs Forza in physics? Well if someone such Kaz states that GT5's physics are on par with reality, that's good enough for me.

Afterall, he has a class win at the 'Ring, which is more than any self-proclaimed "expert" here at GTPlanet can state.

 

[Raitziger]

Forza completely failed the fanatec wheel support. 900 steering bug, steering aids and now people are reporting they do not get winning prices with fanatec wheels.
I only played forza 4 demo and that was enough for me.

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff you go by posts for superiority?

No I mainly go by the quality of the posts, adherence to the AUP, the duration someone has been a member and the content of posts.

I suggest you use your own judgement as a single in my situation and stop trying to be the king of GTPlanet. Just because I don't have many posts doesn't mean I haven't been around a while. Not to mention my first email account was lost and is unrecoverable due to it being a work email and a job change.

I'm not trying to be king of GT Planet, I am however a member of staff and should a member be in risk of violating the AUP then I am bound to highlight that and ensure the do not do so again (using the tool I have available to me).

I wasn't insulting anyone in mass. It was for who fit the category.

This...

"And for those that aren't too bright or understanding."

...breaks this part of the AUP

You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack any individual or any group

So yes you were insulting people and the AUP is not optional.

On the other hand, you directly insulted me. Way to push someone away that isn't commenting enough already.

No I did not insult you at all.

But then again, you did answer to my call, I just wish so it would have been without direct confrontation.

So, I thank you for answering me.....

I think I get agitated a little to fast... I've been in China too long lol.

Exactly, all I did was answer your request, far from an insult.

I'd of agreed with you before 2.0 Scaff, but seriously, if you're basing this off of the older model, try it again. As I mentioned I haven't driven Forza4, but I can say that the new physics model have had a noticeable affect in comfort and sport tires in the exact regard you're speaking off; I noticed it after about a month break straight away - I was able to hold slides (and recover some that got a bit too far out of hand) with throttle much, much easier than before - not sure if what they changed; but it's obvious to me mass direction change, and tire envelopes have certainly been updated.
Also noticed that the tires don't just SPIN UP to max revs if you nail it like they used too - they spin up much slower, as would be in real life, so you are able to on/off/on/off the throttle to adjust your line with much more confidence than before.

Oh I am referring to Spec 2.0, I played it solidly from release to FM4's release and had done back to back since then as well.

Spec 2.0 improved GT5 noticeable, but FM4's tyre modelling is still in my opinion better.


Scaff

 

[d24689]

So for the sum up which game would You rather play? Just type forza or gt5.

 

[Scaff]

So for the sum up which game would You rather play? Just type forza or gt5.

Forza 4 (and the 4 is important)

I doubt it as my experience seems different to some of the Forza guys in the Forza section even with FM3 and also with FM4 demo. I just happen to get the grippier version of the game / demo all the time when it comes to anything related to Forza . What was your experience of the cars in the demo regards to traction out of exits of low speed corners, did you go 100% throttle straight away or did your experience vary and was like the Morgan?

The experience varies massively depending on the car in question, exactly as it should. You seem to be implying that all cars should behave in a similar way and that's simply not the case.

The F10 M5 has a definite feeling of weight about it that cars do not seem to have in GT5 and it has a noticeable effect ion how the tyres react (and I said as much from my first day with the demo), the Zonda reacts as a car that exhibits high levels of downforce should react both at low and high speed (my own experience is with a Radical SR3).

About the Evo article. I can fully understand why Chris feels like that in regards to FM4. FM4 does a good job of fooling people and the way he is driving on the pad he has very little smoothness, it will further enhance the look of sliding is real. It is like throwing a car full lock in and powering then putting full opposite lock. Basics are there but when you go to drive on the edge, there really isn't an edge to the physics. Driving in virtual and real is a lot different due to the physical experience. You drive through what your eyes and body feels IRL while in games you go on just visual and force feedback. That is why some drivers will not get on with simulators too easily, Forza is very forgiving to drive so it will knock down that barrier so inexperienced virtual drivers driving on no assists could drive if they grasp the basic concepts of no ABS driving and smooth steering and apply it to the game. With a pad this is harder to do. Chris was impressed with the Nurburgring GP track in Forza, and considering the GT5 version of that track looks a lot better then you can see, he is in the state of "Wow, cars look like they are real, cars oversteer like they are real and the track looks like real. Amazing that a video game can do this."

A person like Chris using a pad, maybe he is inexperienced on it too will find it hard to find the subtleties of the physics and he is using aids and such like normal steering. I think that goes for about 98-99% of Forza players who played the demo too. I try and relate the game physics to actual car reviews and onboards to see where the game is going wrong and right. I think I should be better than most of these car journalists at virtual simulation driving and grasping what the car is doing quicker. They will obviously be better in real life due to more experience .

Let me just be 100% clear about this, what you are saying is that you are better able to judge how accurate FM4s physics are based on your expreince with just the demo and that carries more weight than someone who has experience driving these cars (and in the case of the F10 M5 that includes the development phase of the car) in reality (and at speed) and on the full game?

That's quite a bold claim!

If we are going to go on physics by a persons opinion on saying it is realistic by trying to relate everything from real to the game even if it is vague, then I guess if you ask these people they would say the same about GT5.

List of names include:

Sebastian Vettel
Sebastian Loeb
Jeff Gordon
Bernd Schneider
Tony Brakohiapa
Kaz Yamauchi
Lucas Ordoñez

and I'm sure there are many others.

Please point out when I have said that GT5 is not realistic?

The point I have made is that FM4 has a more realistic tyre model and suspension model than GT5 and that gives it the edge for me. That's quite different to saying that its unrealistic (unless you believe that GT5 is flawless).

Its also quite possible to put together lists of drivers who will say the same thing about any sim

Like this for example (This is for the FM3 game and I'm sure you will disagree with his comments regards to FM3 physics engine):

First this is a thread about FM4's physics, so unless you are happy to start discussing issues with GT4s physics I woudl suggest you get back on topic.

You would also do well to take a look at my posting issue, as I have gone on the record a number of times regarding issues with the physics in just about every sim around, and that includes FM3.

This is answer from Kaz talking about the dynamics of racing cars in GT:

He's not exactly going to say its rubbish now is he?

Kaz haas a good idea as he is good at both and he could tell that FM3 was not quite a sim (Maybe bias or the feel of the steering assist). I noticed the steering aid in something like the first 15 minutes playing FM3, I didn't know how to check telemetry though but I could feel something defiantely was not right. Went on YouTube and saw someone else with the same problem and called it active steering. Seeing how much it took control explained why it was so hard to lose control of a car in FM3. It is gone to an extent in FM4 this but the high traction is there and still drives very similar to FM3. You can still pull of incredible saves without trying in FM4 still but it is getting there hopefully. I think the physics need to be built up again from the base again as when you drive the game it feels like the old physics engine with different data. The brunt of the active steering is removed so cars should feel more alive in FM4 but all the underlying stuff in FM3 is still there. New tyre data does not solve this as how the game interprets this data is the same, or very similar. Maybe I will have to wait for next-generation of Xbox for T10 to rewrite the physics engine so the code which affects traction gets changed. They can refine this physics engine for this generation but I think they need a rework to make the handling more natural and traction grip more progressive. Braking seems to quite a change in FM4 though.

Once again back with FM3.

Kaz also said that GT4 was accurate and I think most would freely acknowledge that it was not.

As for FM4s physics engine feeling like FM3 with new data, I do have to wonder if you have even played the demo with an open mind because quite frankly that's not even remotely close.


Scaff

 

[Arwin]

I've just got Forza 4 last night but got a decent time in and had tried the demo before as well. There are definitely some nice improvements here versus Forza 3 in terms of physics, but one major question I have is can we switch of the assist in Forza 4? In GT5 you have spin recovery assist, and you can set it to High, Low or Realistic. Forza 4's Simulation setting is basically Low in GT5 as far as I can tell, but it doesn't seem there is a realistic setting? That makes serious physics comparisons almost impossible, imho. I'm driving with the original MS Wheel.

 

[Tenacious D]

I have experience with all four Forzas now, having skipped the demo, so here it goes, based on the MS FFB Wheel unfortunately, but oh well.

To start with, GT5 both pre and post update is very good, though Spec II brings some marvelous improvements which I'm still discovering, having to share time with Forza 4. In my limited real world sports car experience on non-racing tires, I would defer to Scaff in most respects in regard tire modeling in both games. However, depending on the model and compound in GT5, I feel traction breaking is very close to my real world experience. You need a lot of power to overwhelm the tires at low speed in GT5 in cars with moderate power or less, somewhere around 250hp, as tromping the gas mostly causes a lethargic acceleration. Collisions with other cars look fairly realistic, though there isn't quite as much body roll and reaction. You'll notice this if you run your car into a wall at low to moderate speeds, less than 50 mph. Taking off from a standing start in GT5 is easy, because the car launches smoothly in all but very high HP cars, requiring no real finesse. Using ABS even at 1 is rather strange, as there seems to be some stability management and traction control coming along for the ride. Disable ABS completely, along with all other aids, and most cars from 200hp on up suddenly become a handful, and you have to be very careful how you take turns in cars with more power in anything less than racing tires, and brakes lock up with ease. With ABS at 1, most cars are well mannered and fun to throw around curves in almost wild abandon.

But in other ways, GT5 feels fantastic, and it helps if you have a good wheel, at least a DFGT which is very close in feel to a G25, just missing a clutch and H-shifter. Not using a clutch, I don't know how well that's modeled, but given that you can only discern so much in a video game car, most of the dynamics are well represented in GT5. Communication through the feel of the wheel and tire noise is good, and if you have any real car experience, you should feel competent with most cars. Understeer and oversteer are fairly close to what you'd expect, with a few exceptions. I know there is a raging debate on how close, but compared to my PC sims GTR Evo and 2, and Live For Speed, GT5 is remarkably similar in feel, given my passive-aggressive seat of the pants racing style.

Forza 4 has some interesting contrasts to offer. The tire modeling is focused on Pirelli, which Turn 10 partnered with to design the tire physics, so there are some interesting dynamics going on. Body roll is obvious, even on stiff racing suspensions, and cars now clearly lean on them in turns in contrast to previous Forzas. F1 and 2 in particular were ruler flat. Cars feel a little more lively in F4, and collisions are much more realistic. If you bang into a wall, your car rocks around in a lifelike way on its suspension. If you tromp the gas in even a pedestrian car, you have a good chance of breaking traction, so you have to watch your steering in a strong launch.

The more you get into it though, the more it feels like a typical Forza. In particular, the old predominant oversteer in all cars from Forza 1 and 2 is back. Why T10 did this, who knows, unless the drift community clamored for it. I don't like any racing game's cockpit view, so I use roof view if available, or chase cam, and this is a problem in F4 because communication between car and myself is very strange. For one thing, every car sounds like a roaring V8 with a semi-racing muffler, even if balanced in favor of tires in the Audio setup. It's very obnoxious, and covers what whispering the tires are doing. And the tires don't start complaining much until you're pushing the grip envelope hard. The tires begin bogging down without much warning, as if every turn is suddenly a decreasing radius affair. Combine all this together, and taking turns with authority is a chore, even on racing tires and suspension, and with the assists on.

Taking a turn aggressively in F4 is a matter of trial and error, and any experience I've had between real life car behavior and my sims has little or no bearing with this, and the wheel often feels more like a big hand controller. Driving assists don't seem to tame this behavior much. If it's any different with a Fanatec wheel, I'd like to know why, because the MS Wheel should be sufficient to steer a car around a turn. Turn the assists off, even leaving ABS on, and the car becomes very unstable, even moderately potent sports cars. Locking up brakes is way too easy, even with ABS on. Everything in Forza 4 seems to be exaggerated, from car behavior to tire squeal to the overbearing engine roar.

And get ready to restart many races or use that dreaded Rewind function, because these bots make GT5's bots look stellar. They all seem to be a bunch of Jeremy Clarksons in different moods, from drunk to angry, and you will get banged around, even if it's just trying to get around one of the knot-heads.

While all this makes Forza 4 a hoot to race in, the whole feel of the car in the game is just weird to me, and I have to leave most of the assists on to have a reasonable chance of racing a car in a remotely intuitive way. Forza 4 is likely going to be my car painting simulator, and GT5 is what I'm going to race in.

 

[Scaff]

If you are in 2nd or 3rd gear all you get with that car is understeer and perfect traction, it is like it is glued to the ground and will follow only a certain trajectory when you apply power. I think something major is wrong with either the suspension or tyre physics to allow this to happen. Only game sold as a simulation game I've experienced this and this reduces a lot of skill required and the fun factor. RWD cars with high horsepower have the traction and understeer behaviour of a low BHP FWD hatchback. I don't understand why but that is how the physics feel to me. No bias, if I required progression of throttle to gain good traction I would say so. Maybe there is some small hidden TCS assist no one apart from T10 knows about or the physics are just like that, very forgiving to drive.

To come back to this point with regard to 2nd and 3rd gear corners and the Morgan....



...most certainly not understeer and perfect traction (which are mutually exclusive anyway) and most definitely not a case of "RWD cars with high horsepower have the traction and understeer behaviour of a low BHP FWD hatchback".

(My apologies for the driving but it was to illustrate the point, all throttle induced).


Now go here and start from around 5.30





Scaff

 

[bypo]

I dont have time to read all posts int his thread right now, but i have played FM4 30 minutes ago, for the first time, i played it for 1 hour or so.

All i have to say in my opinion is this:

positives
- it has the best cars, lots of them, and dont have 434353535353 skylines!! -.- ;
- good graphics(but gt5 is way way way way way way closer to real life);
- physics are very improved since Forza 3, wich i played a LOT, BUT, they dont reach the deepness of GT5. They are a slight wiff of GT5, although they steel more arcadish... In my point of view, is a nfs shift with less stupidity, and a more cientific aproach to real physics;
- damage is good BUT, read the negatives.
- autovista is just fun when hearing jeremy!
- menus are way better than GT5;
- music and engine sounds, and sound effects are very good;
- and i think, the offline mode is very much all in should have in GT5.. we want to play that game hours and hours because it gives you a lot of things to do, were GT5 just gives you the same and same and the same thing everytime you play it.

negatives
- arcadish physics;
- over damage in cars: if you touch in the real panel of a car thats in front of you, it loses all the paint in that panel!! just becomes stainless steel!
-graphics are inferior to gt5, not as good as the videos from T10 we see on the web, and the modelling of the cars is not that much of a big deal. I think some cars in shift are even better than in forza..
- Interiors dont have nowere near the detail of gt5.
- track selection is poor and the original tracks from t10 are quite a bit boring, and unreal.
- and the LOAD TIMES. they are like gt5 was when it was launched, very very slow!!


this is all i can remember right now, its late and i have to sleep. Ill be playing it in the next 2 days in a friend house, and ill tell you something else.. However i dont really think that there is much to say..

For me, GT5 is better. But it has a lot of problems that have to be really improved. But, for the people who LOVE CARS, who loves to RACE, GT5 is better.
FORZA MOTORSPORT 4 is just more fun. Is like the mp4-12 and the 458 italia to jeremy. One is better than the other, but the other is way better than the other! you know?

 

[kimi123]

Forza4 physics debunked with arcade sticks. Checkout this guys video

 

[Scaff]

I dont have time to read all posts int his thread right now, but i have played FM4 30 minutes ago, for the first time, i played it for 1 hour or so.

Could you have at the very least read the thread title?

This is a discussion about the physics of GT5 and FM4, not the entire contents of the games, please keep on topic in future.

This is the thread you are after.


Thanks

Forza4 physics debunked with arcade sticks. Checkout this guys video

And what of the people who play GT5 and use the D-pad?

I can recall at least one youtube video of someone golding a licence test in that way.

Neither would debunk FM4 or GT5 physics.


Scaff

 

[disinfected]

Totally addicted to Forza 4, but I think to say the physics feel much different than Forza 3 isn't a valid claim.

 

[kimi123]

Could you have at the very least read the thread title?

This is a discussion about the physics of GT5 and FM4, not the entire contents of the games, please keep on topic in future.

This is the thread you are after.


Thanks


And what of the people who play GT5 and use the D-pad?

I can recall at least one youtube video of someone golding a licence test in that way.

Neither would debunk FM4 or GT5 physics.


Scaff

of course they have to make game accessible wiith controller because majority of them are going to use it. However those arcade sticks is digital input device. In that video the guy was in control with no aids. Even with controller you can the get some feel for the car and feedback. Also many people believe that Forza has some pre-computed stuff going on which makes an average joe look good. But in reality it is not proper representation of sim.

 

[BWX]

I'll play FM4 eventually, but could someone here please tell me why a sim would have a ''skid recovery force'' or active steering that can never be turned off like in FM4? If you don't know about it or don't think it does.. go look it up. It does. Why would they do that? And yes I have read every word of every post.

EDIT
I don't remember swearing or trying to get around swear filter?

 

[Scaff]

of course they have to make game accessible wiith controller because majority of them are going to use it. However those arcade sticks is digital input device. In that video the guy was in control with no aids. Even with controller you can the get some feel for the car and feedback. Also many people believe that Forza has some pre-computed stuff going on which makes an average joe look good. But in reality it is not proper representation of sim.

Steering mapping with a pad on GT5 is not 1:1 either and as I've said you can find people driving in GT5 with the D-pad (which is also digital).

The track in question helps here as well, given that its a high speed and very wide road track, with few reducing radius corners or even tight corners.

Its also (and given how funny people get about using GT5P to talk about GT5 quite relevant) from the demo and the final product does differ.

I'll play FM4 eventually, but could someone here please tell me why a sim would have a ''skid recovery force'' or active steering that can never be turned off like in FM4? If you don't know about it or don't think it does.. go look it up. It does. Why would they do that? And yes I have read every word of every post.

Which only affects certain wheels, past certain degrees of rotation, and is going to be patched out. Funny that you didn't mention that at all.


Why not give the actual game a go and see what you think about it, Kimi knows me well enough to know that I am a long term GT advocate, yet the improvements they have made (particularity in terms of physics which are key to me) are more than enough for me to rate it above GT5.


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[Tenacious D]

I have to amend my above post. I noticed that racing suspension is very stiff, and there is almost no bodyroll through turns, as you'd expect with something so firm. I made my above judgment on my 240SX, which I had put sports suspension on, not racing.

But continuing on with it after a few days, racing doesn't feel a bit more comfortable, and I'm constantly twitching around turns to correct the atrocious ever present tendency to oversteer in every car, even with assists on. I also noticed that in replays, you can hear that only your car sounds so overly mean and aggressive, while the others sound like Gran Turismo "vacuum cleaners." I suspect this is a hint that T10 went the Toca route Codemasters used to get so many cars in race at once, by limiting the various attributes of a real car such as complex physics and sound to yours, and scripting much of it for the bots. I think everything but the sound is a good choice, in order to get a full field of cars and such good graphics. Still, overdoing the engine noise SO much for your car is just strange.

 

[Bigbazz]

I seem surprised by this, every forum i've been on has a general consensus that the FM4 physics are not up to scratch of the GT5 physics, generally saying it feels pretty much the same as FM3. Throw in the active steering/SFR type driving aid that can't be turned off..

I have to say I think you're pulling at straws with this one. It could have the best physics in the world underneath, but with that "can't turn off" aid in place it is neutered down to a game where average joe can feel like a pro.

I also completely disagree with your opinions on GT5 tyre modelling being suited to racing tyres, on the contrary I would say that it is only suited to road tyres and as a result the Racing tyres are ridiculously over the top, feeling like super glue grip road tyres with the same slip angles and characteristics, lacking the bite and snapback qualities of a real slick tyre, and generally having too much grip.

I haven't played the full game of FM4.

 

[symustafa1996]

There is a link @ the top for FM4.💡

There wasn't a link before.

 

[BWX]

Which only affects certain wheels, past certain degrees of rotation, and is going to be patched out. Funny that you didn't mention that at all.


Why not give the actual game a go and see what you think about it, Kimi knows me well enough to know that I am a long term GT advocate, yet the improvements they have made (particularity in terms of physics which are key to me) are more than enough for me to rate it above GT5.


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Cause I hadn't heard that before. I saw the issue initially on some random Youtube vid, then heard simracingtonight mention it in a vid. It's good they are fixing it though.

I would already have FM4 if I owned an X-Box, I would already own an X-Box if they supported the G25 (my wheel).

If I ever get a Fanatec wheel or other quality X-Box compatible wheel I'll probably get an X-Box shortly after that day. My G25 still works with a fresh Nixim modded brake though.. so it'll be a while. I only care about sim-type race games or full on sims, so it's a big investment for just one game.

 

[Dmarc_Atl]

I figured which ever one could produce laps closest to real life would be the winner.

 

[avens]

And what of the people who play GT5 and use the D-pad?

I can recall at least one youtube video of someone golding a licence test in that way.

Neither would debunk FM4 or GT5 physics.


Scaff

ps3's controller d-pad is pressure sensitive actually. It's the only one I know.
On the other hand, an arcade stick always detects 8 directions with a fixed pressure, therefore those are not meant to be used in racing and fps games.


about the game's physics: try rfactor (with mods) or iracing. They are on a whole different level of realism, and its said that even they are no match against the simulators created by racing teams.
Forza4 and GT5 are console games in the end, therefore simplified (tuning for example), made to be appealing (driving line, driving position outside the car) and not viable for proper competition.
No professional driver on his right mind would use them to practice or to learn a new track, whereas they use the said PC games.
What I mean with this is that there's no point in comparing the physics of both games, because, at the end of the day, they are console games still so they don't focus on achieving perfect realism. What matters for them is sales, and forza sold more than 4 times what the gt franchise did in the same period of time, while maintaining a decent amount of simulation.


edit: also consider that the "realistic tyre model" in gt5 is comfort:mediums, which are rarely used.

So your basing your judgement on a missing feature? The question wasn't about what features do you think is missing it was which has the better physics.

If GT5 had tire pressure options it would be a pain in the ass. I find it laughable that they included that feature in Forza given that the physics themselves aren't very realistic in the first place.

tyre model and tyre-related aspects are key elements to this type of game/simulator, most probably the most important ones actually.

 

[Scaff]

I seem surprised by this, every forum i've been on has a general consensus that the FM4 physics are not up to scratch of the GT5 physics, generally saying it feels pretty much the same as FM3. Throw in the active steering/SFR type driving aid that can't be turned off..

Every forum?

I find that quite unlikely (unless you are only looking for forums to support a particular point of view)

I have to say I think you're pulling at straws with this one. It could have the best physics in the world underneath, but with that "can't turn off" aid in place it is neutered down to a game where average joe can feel like a pro.

Except the assist doesn't work all the time (affecting only wheels past a certain degree of lock) and is being patched out.

I also completely disagree with your opinions on GT5 tyre modelling being suited to racing tyres, on the contrary I would say that it is only suited to road tyres and as a result the Racing tyres are ridiculously over the top, feeling like super glue grip road tyres with the same slip angles and characteristics, lacking the bite and snapback qualities of a real slick tyre, and generally having too much grip.

Grip is one thing (and GTs tyres have always had too much), what I am referring to is the Pacejka curves and how they relate to the transition from grip to loss.

Road tyres have a gradual drop off once the slip limit is reached, while racing tyres offer more grip but have a much steeper drop off once the slip limit is reached.


The issue I have with GT5 tyre modelling is that all types of tyres seem to follow the same curve as that with just the peak grip limit changing. FM4's differing tyre tyres actually act as they should in regard to Pacejka curves. With road and semi-slicks having a more gradual load and unload but with less grip.

I haven't played the full game of FM4.

That much is quite clear.

ps3's controller d-pad is pressure sensitive actually. It's the only one I know.
On the other hand, an arcade stick always detects 8 directions with a fixed pressure, therefore those are not meant to be used in racing and fps games.

And if we are using the same level of analysis nor should a d-pad be capable of doing the same. Analog or not the fine level of control could not be achieved without some assistance, GT's pad control is no better or worse than FM's.

about the game's physics: try rfactor (with mods) or iracing. They are on a whole different level of realism, and its said that even they are no match against the simulators created by racing teams.
Forza4 and GT5 are console games in the end, therefore simplified (tuning for example), made to be appealing (driving line, driving position outside the car) and not viable for proper competition.
No professional driver on his right mind would use them to practice or to learn a new track, whereas they use the said PC games.
What I mean with this is that there's no point in comparing the physics of both games, because, at the end of the day, they are console games still so they don't focus on achieving perfect realism. What matters for them is sales, and forza sold more than 4 times what the gt franchise did in the same period of time, while maintaining a decent amount of simulation.

If no point exists in comparing them then why are you posting in this thread?

That they are simplified in comparison to PC sims doesn't mean they can't be discussed and compared.

edit: also consider that the "realistic tyre model" in gt5 is comfort:mediums, which are rarely used.

tyre model and tyre-related aspects are key elements to this type of game/simulator, most probably the most important ones actually.

Differing grip levels =/= a realistic tyre model, as I have explained above.

I quite agree that tyre modelling is critical (I've taught basic vehicle dynamics in the motor industry for a number of manufacturers) and in this regard the manner in which FM4 deals with not just the level of grip, but how differing tyres react to loading is much better modelled and something that can be quite clearly felt when driving.


Scaff