Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[Bereaver]

I would like to see a poll showing people who actually race, real cars in real life.
Then see how the poll turns out. Unfortunately there would be too many liars, but if only right?

I've played both Forza and GT.

And there's only one game that made me feel like I was actually in the car, making me feel those G's.

GT5

I just couldn't believe the feeling, I literally busted out laughing making my GF think I was crazy. You see, I've been living in China for about 4 years... and it's been a long time since I've been able to race. So when I got behind the wheel and felt it.... my heart just went crazy. On the other hand... I just didn't feel that with Forza....

Anyway, I just wished we could get real professionals in on an argument like this.

*EDIT*

And for those that aren't too bright or understanding.

We don't mean physics that are easier to control or makes it feel funner. We mean down to the grit realistic precision.

 

[MM1000]

Forza 4 physics seem slightly too smoothed out to me.

It's hard to describe. It's like that juddering you get as you find bits of grip and loose them again. In Forza the process seems a bit too rounded off.

I admire the game and it's achievements as I've said before, but having owned a racing license in real life - I just can't get quite as lost in the experience of driving on the edge in Forza 4 as I can in GT5. To me that comes down to physics.

It's those little bits in-between corner entry and corner exit that feel more 'realistic' to me in GT5.

It's given my XBOX a new lease of life though. That's for sure.

It's definitely better, but those saying it's better than GT5 often rely on marketing BS like the tire stuff, as though GT5 doesn't have awesome tire simulation too.

Laying out goobledeegook comments about how Forza has this and that doesn't change the fact that Forza has a simpler simulation that is easier and less realistic.

Forza is indeed a great game, but it's also somewhat overhyped, in my opinion, and I think far too concerned with GT5. That's the reason the devs gave so much prerendered stuff to hype the game.

It's not like Forza 4 doesn't look great, but it doesn't look like the graphics we saw prior to release and that was a bit disappointing. GT5 was promoted with videos of racing in the game. Forza didn't need to act like it was that concerned about its graphics. It's got nothing to be ashamed of there.

It's just too much emphasis on marketing.

 

[CC570]

I find this thread interesting and perplexing at the same time. Just the question as to how to quantify what makes the physics of a driving sim/game good or bad really should be specified before making any conclusions. Each particular aspect of the physics of driving; grip, tire deformation,suspension loading, aerodynamics etc are quite complex problems in their own right. I seriously doubt that any real time driving simulation models any of these problems using accurate physical models. I don't believe there is the computing power available to solve the systems of partial differential equations in real time. Not even close. So saying a simulators physics are accurate or realistic is more a statement of how real we perceive them than how accurate they really are. That is unless you can compare the simulation directly with real world experimentation.
So with the above in mind I have a couple of question and comments.
@Scaff

The tyre modelling alone is superior to GT5's and as a result the loading of grip, slip limits and breakaway is much, much more accurate. Load transfer and how differing suspension types manage said transfer is more realistically done.

Do you have knowledge of how either platform actually models tyre's?
When you say that something is done more accurately is that a subjective conclusion or is it based on objective/quantifiable evidence?
Similarly when you use say "more realistically done" is this a statement of fact based on knowledge of the models used and the actual physics of the process or is it based on personal experience and perception.
From my experience, which is quite limited, I believe that what makes me perceive a simulation as realistic has more to do with the tactile and sensory than it does with the actual physics of the model. A couple of examples.
The Ford Mark IV in GT5: If I drive this car with no sound, bumper cam and automatic it feels like a game. I drive fast and crash often. Ho hum.
If I use cockpit view, 3D mode, use the gated shifter, and turn the sound up. I perceive it as much more real. My heartbeat spikes, my hands sweat. I tend to drive slower but don't crash as often. The "physics" are the same in both instances but one experience is much more realistic than the other.
As to accuracy; I bought my real life car in GT5. The transmission ratios were not correct. Once I put a the custom transmission in and set the gear ratios so that speed and rpm was correct then I think that the simulation was fairly accurate. The GT5 car felt reasonably similar to my real car.
I have no experience with Forza so I have no comments on it.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Forza 4.

The tyre modelling alone is superior to GT5's and as a result the loading of grip, slip limits and breakaway is much, much more accurate. Load transfer and how differing suspension types manage said transfer is more realistically done.

Overall the differences between FM3 and FM4's physics are significant and even with the Spec 2.0 update on GT5, FM4 still manages to nudge ahead.

Oh and those who have not played FM4 would do well to refrain from the nonsense comments I am seeing on here, as getting through a hairpin without hitting the brakes either shows the member in question has no idea what a hairpin is or the are in violation of the AUP...




...as an emotive topic such as this is not place for flamebait.


Scaff

Scaff, can you explain why Forza 4 has really high traction? I always wondered why this game allows perfect traction, say in 2nd or 3rd gear in a supercar and you always get perfect traction going straight to full throttle coming out of a corner. All the sports cars and supercars seem to have ridiculously high mechanical grip overall.

 

[CDJW]

It's amazing how many people can't read a question. It didn't ask for a Forza 3 or Forza 4demo comparison. No wonder the poll is so out of whack. The demo drives NOTHING like the actual game. I didn't like the demo at all. If anybody is honest about it with a mature opinion, both games are just as good and have their own set of faults and good points with regards to physics. GT5 five is highly unrealistic when cornering and Forza 4 is unrealistic with braking for the most part. In truth nobody in here is qualified to give any kind of opinion on realistic racing physics because unless you've driven every race car in these games you can't know what "real" actually means. Silly question that is only meant as an excuse to game bash. Forza 4 also has an awesome tire physics model that you really feel which is a big plus. As far as I know, only R Factor has tire deformation besides Forza 4.

saider: Try playing without kiddie assists if you want to see how uncontrollable cars are when cornering in Forza 4 because I find that the cars have way too little traction (which I think is pretty unrealistic).

 

[Perti78]

I respect both games, but got to say gt5 is more realistic than forza. Driving forza makes me feel like I'm using one of the need for speed series. When u change cars from the dealer is like ur changing a photo, it looked like a scraped photo. I played thinking it was awesome, but it didnt fill my expectations, so with all due respect, my humble opinion, gt5 it's a better simulator than forza 4.

 

[CDJW]

Perti: So you base how well a "simulator" is by what the car selection screen looks like. Wow. That makes NO sense. Does that make GT "the real 3d menu simulator" now?

 

[Perti78]

Perti: So you base how well a "simulator" is by what the car selection screen looks like. Wow. That makes NO sense. Does that make GT "the real 3d menu simulator" now?

If u read what I write I'd said, "driving forza makes me feel like I'm using one of the need for speed series". The dealer is other thing i didnt like. It's my opinion, don't take it personal.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

It's amazing how many people can't read a question. It didn't ask for a Forza 3 or Forza 4demo comparison. No wonder the poll is so out of whack. The demo drives NOTHING like the actual game. I didn't like the demo at all. If anybody is honest about it with a mature opinion, both games are just as good and have their own set of faults and good points with regards to physics. GT5 five is highly unrealistic when cornering and Forza 4 is unrealistic with braking for the most part. In truth nobody in here is qualified to give any kind of opinion on realistic racing physics because unless you've driven every race car in these games you can't know what "real" actually means. Silly question that is only meant as an excuse to game bash. Forza 4 also has an awesome tire physics model that you really feel which is a big plus. As far as I know, only R Factor has tire deformation besides Forza 4.

saider: Try playing without kiddie assists if you want to see how uncontrollable cars are when cornering in Forza 4 because I find that the cars have way too little traction (which I think is pretty unrealistic).

I have only played the demo of FM4, all the cars in it with no assists apart from not using clutch. I have got the full game of FM3 and plan to get FM4 when it drops down in price in a few months time. Anyway I know FM3 had a "kiddie" assist permanently enabled and FM4 to an extent but they should not really affect traction. The traction is way too high I find, and requires next to no throttle control which is surprising. You would have thought you would be able to spin the wheels with a RWD car with a lot of horsepower coming out of a low speed corner but the tyres just grip so the quickest way around the track seems to be full throttle straight out of corners.

This really kills the driving experience for me as well as the way the physics work make it hard to lose a car on purpose. You can correct high speed moments by lifting off and putting opposite lock which makes the car point the right way. I don't think that is the correct behaviour in that situation. Maybe like when using brakes in F1 2010 corrects the car when having moments, in FM4 lift off and opposite lock seems the substitute to that.

However, if they have drastically changed the physics over the demo then I guess I will look forward to FM4 full game driving physics. Anyone confirm on here that the bolded part in the quote is slightly true?

 

[thechosenwonton]

Haven't played Forza 4, and I took a break from GT5 until this update - so I didn't vote - but I can say that the new physics for GT5 are a massive improvement - the vehicle weight transfer is now a serious issue in chicanes and quick left/right, right/left corners - FWD vehicles may be faster in some areas that they weren't before due to this change.

Another issue was understeer/oversteer being greatly improved; hit the brakes a little later in some corners and turn in, completely off the brakes and use your understeer to slow the car down a bit further, pick up the throttle to point it towards the apex - I used to have to do left foot braking to not over rotate and balance on the gas - not anymore, and this was with the rather ill handling 66' 427 Cobra - it was even better when I tried the 91' NSX, a lot more fun - not easier, but more realistic with the way street cars handle.

I think my next test will be with the Murcialago as that thing stock was an oversteer nightmare off the thottle, so you always had to drive with both feet to keep it from killing you. So dunno about Forza 4, but I am glad to have some new life in GT5.

 

[HAL20XX]

I have only played the demo of FM4...

As it's the demo, we have no idea what tires were equipped on each car. I assure you that the full game does not apply an unrealistic amount of grip on cars. I tried the Ultimate SSC Aero yesterday and was roasting the rears in fifth gear (as one would expect with 1200 hp!). The Australian V8 Supercars are unruly beasts too.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

As it's the demo, we have no idea what tires were equipped on each car. I assure you that the full game does not apply an unrealistic amount of grip on cars. I tried the Ultimate SSC Aero yesterday and was roasting the rears in fifth gear (as one would expect with 1200 hp!). The Australian V8 Supercars are unruly beasts too.

R class cars in Forza 3 you could break traction, however I'm talking about traction of stock sports cars / supercars.

 

[HAL20XX]

R class cars in Forza 3 you could break traction, however I'm talking about traction of stock sports cars / supercars.

Yes, you can easily break traction in stock sports cars/supercars.

 

[Scaff]

I would like to see a poll showing people who actually race, real cars in real life.
Then see how the poll turns out. Unfortunately there would be too many liars, but if only right?

I've played both Forza and GT.

And there's only one game that made me feel like I was actually in the car, making me feel those G's.

GT5

I just couldn't believe the feeling, I literally busted out laughing making my GF think I was crazy. You see, I've been living in China for about 4 years... and it's been a long time since I've been able to race. So when I got behind the wheel and felt it.... my heart just went crazy. On the other hand... I just didn't feel that with Forza....

Anyway, I just wished we could get real professionals in on an argument like this.

*EDIT*

And for those that aren't too bright or understanding.

We don't mean physics that are easier to control or makes it feel funner. We mean down to the grit realistic precision.

I've worked in the motor industry for most of my adult life (a good two decades) and have logged hundreds of hours on track and proving grounds, so I guess I would meet your criteria. I have also taught driving skills and vehicle dynamics as well as managed the product launch for around a dozen different cars.

I would also strongly suggest that you stop insulting members en-mass, as given you are three posts into you GT Planet membership that's not a good move.

Scaff, can you explain why Forza 4 has really high traction? I always wondered why this game allows perfect traction, say in 2nd or 3rd gear in a supercar and you always get perfect traction going straight to full throttle coming out of a corner. All the sports cars and supercars seem to have ridiculously high mechanical grip overall.

Forza 4 doesn't have really high traction at all, nor does it have anything close to prefect traction in any way. In fact the traction budget for tyres in both is fairly close, the difference is that tyres in GT5 have almost zero progression (the go from grip to no grip very, very quickly) which is fairly accurate for a racing tyre but not for a road tyre. The tyre modelling in Forza 4, particularly for road spec tyres, behaves in a much more realistic manner.


Scaff

 

[Robinworldwide]

I own both games and i think gt5 is the more realistic game of the two. Imho Forza 4 is still a bit arcadey (seriously, how can you claim you make a sim and then add in that crazy rewind feature?), but it's a really cool game which has a waaaay more extensive career mode than gt5, so i will keep playing both!

 

[Scaff]

I own both games and i think gt5 is the more realistic game of the two. Imho Forza 4 is still a bit arcadey (seriously, how can you claim you make a sim and then add in that crazy rewind feature?), but it's a really cool game which has a waaaay more extensive career mode than gt5, so i will keep playing both!

What does a rewind feature (that you can turn off) have to do with the physics?


Scaff

 

[Robinworldwide]

What does a rewind feature (that you can turn off) have to do with the physics?


Scaff

Sorry badass, but i didn't state that the rewind feature has anything to do with the physics now did i? I simply just stated that it's weird that a game should be a sim more than a arcade game has such a rewind feature.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Forza 4.

The tyre modelling alone is superior to GT5's and as a result the loading of grip, slip limits and breakaway is much, much more accurate. Load transfer and how differing suspension types manage said transfer is more realistically done.

Overall the differences between FM3 and FM4's physics are significant and even with the Spec 2.0 update on GT5, FM4 still manages to nudge ahead.
Scaff

I have hundreds of hours of real life road track time and have been building vehicles for around 16 years. I also play both games. Sometimes at the same time using the B spec driver in GT5. I agree with you 100%. The GT5 physics are very good but F4 has the superior physics. Driving in F4 using the cockpit view is the closest I have felt to road track racing in real life.

F3 physics were not as good as GT5 but F4 has improved their tire physics by a very impressive amount. Unlike GT5 and F3, you can actually recover from a skid in F4. Each car has its own personality now in F4. It just feels so dang real. 👍

 

[HAL20XX]

Sorry badass, but i didn't state that the rewind feature has anything to do with the physics now did i? I simply just stated that it's weird that a game should be a sim more than a arcade game has such a rewind feature.

By that reasoning, it's weird that GT considers itself a sim when you can upgrade your ECU on a '70's muscle car.

 

[matt-mtb]

Every video I've seen, I think the cars on Forza just understeer and have no grip. But, the graphics do look FAB. But Im still in love with GT5

 

[Robinworldwide]

By that reasoning, it's weird that GT considers itself a sim when you can upgrade your ECU on a '70's muscle car.

Haha fair enough! Never even thought of that!

 

[Greycap]

By that reasoning, it's weird that GT considers itself a sim when you can upgrade your ECU on a '70's muscle car.

Never heard of carburettor engines with computer controlled ignition, or even EFI swaps?

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Sorry badass, but i didn't state that the rewind feature has anything to do with the physics now did i? I simply just stated that it's weird that a game should be a sim more than a arcade game has such a rewind feature.

So according to you then any sim game should not have a "Pause" button.
People that complain about the rewind feature are seriously the biggest idots I have ever seen. If you dont like it dont use it.
Oh also if a game needs to be a sim then it should only have a cockpit view to drive with right? Because sitting on the hood of your car or behind it sure is not simulation. Sheesh these people about the rewind feature. Just way beyond sad. Not only can it be turned off but you get extra money each race for turning it off. If you dont like it dont use it. And you better not ever use the "pause" or "restart race" button because thats sooooo arcade.

 

[Robinworldwide]

So according to you then any sim game should not have a "Pause" button.
People that complain about the rewind feature are seriously the biggest idots I have ever seen. If you dont like it dont use it.
Oh also if a game needs to be a sim then it should only have a cockpit view to drive with right? Because sitting on the hood of your car or behind it sure is not simulation. Sheesh these people about the rewind feature. Just way beyond sad. Not only can it be turned off but you get extra money each race for turning it off. If you dont like it dont use it. And you better not ever use the "pause" or "restart race" button because thats sooooo arcade.

Don't get your panties all up in a bunch dude! I wasn't complaining anywhere, what is it with people like you starting a rant without even reading properly? Comparing the pause with the rewind feature is apples and oranges though. How does the pause feature enable you to correct a screw up? Right, it doesn't! And don't worry, i don't use it, if i screw so be it!

 

[Scaff]

Sorry badass, but i didn't state that the rewind feature has anything to do with the physics now did i? I simply just stated that it's weird that a game should be a sim more than a arcade game has such a rewind feature.

To reply to a perfectly valid question (this is after all a thread about the physics of the two games) with an insult is not a smart move at all. Watch the attitude if you wish to remain posting here.

I would extend that to a good number of members here who seem to be under the impression that insults form a valid part of debate and discussion, they do not and will not be tolerated.



Scaff

 

[HAL20XX]

Never heard of carburettor engines with computer controlled ignition, or even EFI swaps?

I have, but the option in game is to tune the ECU. One must first have an ECU in order to have it tuned.

How does the pause feature enable you to correct a screw up? Right, it doesn't! And don't worry, i don't use it, if i screw so be it!

Though it does allow you to prevent a possible screw up. Have you ever tried to keep racing during a sneeze? Even IF you can keep your eyes open (careful, I've heard your head will explode), your eyes start watering up, you can't see, and now a second sneeze is coming on... by now you've taken out half the field.

All I'm getting at is these are still games at their very core and will always have game like options. It's entirely up to the user to use them and shouldn't take away from the sim-like nature of either game.

 

[Robinworldwide]

To reply to a perfectly valid question (this is after all a thread about the physics of the two games) with an insult is not a smart move at all. Watch the attitude if you wish to remain posting here.

I would extend that to a good number of members here who seem to be under the impression that insults form a valid part of debate and discussion, they do not and will not be tolerated.



Scaff

If it was meant as such i apologise. It just came across as if all you tried to do was playing smart on me rather than posing an actual valid question.

 

[Scaff]

If it was meant as such i apologise. It just came across as if all you tried to do was playing smart on me rather than posing an actual valid question.

Accepted, and I would recommend that you check a persons posting history before jumping to conclusions, I don't play the smart arse.

👍

Scaff

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Forza 4 doesn't have really high traction at all, nor does it have anything close to prefect traction in any way. In fact the traction budget for tyres in both is fairly close, the difference is that tyres in GT5 have almost zero progression (the go from grip to no grip very, very quickly) which is fairly accurate for a racing tyre but not for a road tyre. The tyre modelling in Forza 4, particularly for road spec tyres, behaves in a much more realistic manner.


Scaff

I really don't know then if this is realistic but why can the Zonda Cinque accelerate out of 2nd or 3rd gear, full power applied with no progression in throttle and still accelerate like it is planted like some fan car? It is almost like the physics are scripted somewhat as you can only light up the tyres from standing start in say 1st gear with a sports or supercar and only R class cars can break traction in higher gears. It is like there is a precondition. Also you lose traction on curbs and also going slightly sideways on a bump. It is limited to those situations when you can lose traction but if you are trying to drive fast you will not be doing that by keeping steering smooth which makes the car handle like it is on rails. Traction grip is the same as say racing softs in GT5 in low bhp cars as it is in supercars in FM4 demo stock. Don't think that is realistic myself.

If you are in 2nd or 3rd gear all you get with that car is understeer and perfect traction, it is like it is glued to the ground and will follow only a certain trajectory when you apply power. I think something major is wrong with either the suspension or tyre physics to allow this to happen. Only game sold as a simulation game I've experienced this and this reduces a lot of skill required and the fun factor. RWD cars with high horsepower have the traction and understeer behaviour of a low BHP FWD hatchback. I don't understand why but that is how the physics feel to me. No bias, if I required progression of throttle to gain good traction I would say so. Maybe there is some small hidden TCS assist no one apart from T10 knows about or the physics are just like that, very forgiving to drive.

I think I repeated myself a few times so sorry about that.

 

[Scaff]

I really don't know then if this is realistic but why can the Zonda Cinque accelerate out of 2nd or 3rd gear, full power applied with no progression in throttle and still accelerate like it is planted like some fan car? It is almost like the physics are scripted somewhat as you can only light up the tyres from standing start in say 1st gear with a sports or supercar and only R class cars can break traction in higher gears. It is like there is a precondition. Also you lose traction on curbs and also going slightly sideways on a bump. It is limited to those situations when you can lose traction but if you are trying to drive fast you will not be doing that by keeping steering smooth which makes the car handle like it is on rails. Traction grip is the same as say racing softs in GT5 in low bhp cars as it is in supercars in FM4 demo stock. Don't think that is realistic myself.

If you are in 2nd or 3rd gear all you get with that car is understeer and perfect traction, it is like it is glued to the ground and will follow only a certain trajectory when you apply power. I think something major is wrong with either the suspension or tyre physics to allow this to happen. Only game sold as a simulation game I've experienced this and this reduces a lot of skill required and the fun factor. RWD cars with high horsepower have the traction and understeer behaviour of a low BHP FWD hatchback. I don't understand why but that is how the physics feel to me. No bias, if I required progression of throttle to gain good traction I would say so. Maybe there is some small hidden TCS assist no one apart from T10 knows about or the physics are just like that, very forgiving to drive.

I think I repeated myself a few times so sorry about that.

Are you actually aware of how much down-force that thing generates? It can produce up to 750kgs of downforce and corner at around 1.45g!!! That's over half the cars curb weight and as a result it will corner like that at speed. Have you ever actually driven a car that generates true downforce at speed?

You keep going back to basing your opinions on trying a very small selection of the cars in a demo, and comments such as "RWD cars with high horsepower have the traction and understeer behaviour of a low BHP FWD hatchback" are simply inaccurate.

Do you know anyone with a 360 and a copy of FM4 (or rent a copy) get hold of a Morgan in it and let me know if that behaves like a low BHP FWD hatch, because right now you comments are starting to look more and more ridiculous.


Scaff