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http://jalopnik.com/5982998/gt-academy-drivers-cant-race-in-real-life-because-theyre-too-fast
This would not happen for FM4 veterans.
This would not happen for FM4 veterans.
Forza 4 vs GT5 physics
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- Exorcet
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I tried to hint with 'unfortunately' that I was just saying. I wasn't sure if you were trying to use the article to say that GT is more realistic. I think Forza is and was pointing out some of the reasons why.
I've also played both, had good times with both, and have been frustrated by both. For now Forza is more interesting to me though, mainly because of the physics.
I've also played both, had good times with both, and have been frustrated by both. For now Forza is more interesting to me though, mainly because of the physics.
Sorry, not playing favorites, but that's bull. That would not only happen with FM4, but also Forza 1, Gran Turismo 3, Shift 2 Unleashed, whatever. The only thing Gran Turismo really lent those players is an environment that rewards a sense of discipline, something invaluable in racetrack situations. Any pseudo-sim or "serious" racing game offers the same thing, even if it isn't terribly realistic or sophisticated. This isn't so much the mark of a good game as much as an indicator of the type of game they played.
It doesn't matter which game is your favorite, you don't need a high-fidelity physics engine to learn racetracks and racing etiquette. Furthermore, a good simulator won't automatically teach you how to drive, and a good driver won't necessarily pick the best simulator to play in their spare time.
Scaff
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Opinion posted as fact is never a good idea, when it also comes across as flame bait its even more unwise. Please don't do this kind of thing again.
NO this thread is for discussing physics, we have another thread if you wish to discuss both series overall.FM4 does those two better sure but why be bitter about it? I've played (and loved) both games, and we're talking about the game as a whole!
Edit: Not sure if you are being bitter or just saying. It's impossible to gauge online
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=209534
100% agree, the number of people who use the GTA as a reason why they believe GT5 has 'uber' physics is quite frightening. Success in the academy is only a product of GT to a certain point in time (and as you say could be replaced with any sim or semi-sim). Once you get to any of the heats they are looking for far more from you than how quickly you can drive a sim and once it gets down to the final dozen or so, then GT5 leaves the equation all together.
The GTA winners then get the level of coaching and one to one tuition that very, very few could either afford or have access to, and quite frankly Wolfe is 100% right, this could be a FMA and very little would be different at all.
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^ "..."
Wasn't trying to flame! Also, I meant physics as a whole not game, that's my bad (I agree w/ Exorcet's 2 points but imo I feel overall in physics terms GT5 trumps). Also while I certainly hadn[t thought of it the way Wolfe has outlined and is definitely a valid argu,ent I still feel the "simulator level" of the game will determine how accurately they can gauge potential academy students.
Wasn't trying to flame! Also, I meant physics as a whole not game, that's my bad (I agree w/ Exorcet's 2 points but imo I feel overall in physics terms GT5 trumps). Also while I certainly hadn[t thought of it the way Wolfe has outlined and is definitely a valid argu,ent I still feel the "simulator level" of the game will determine how accurately they can gauge potential academy students.
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I disagree, and will explain why, from my perspective:
Let's establish a scale of "racingdriverness" from 1 to 10, where 1 is a soccer mom driving slowly around town in a minivan, and 10 is one of the top three F1 drivers from today's race. I will now fill in the rest of the scale:
1- mom about town in minivan
2- a person without a drives license who plays racing games
3- a person WITH a drivers license AND a car, who plays racing games
4- someone who hoons around town in their >300 HP car such that they have lost traction on their driving wheels on dry pavement not less than 10 times, not counting bald tires
5- someone who puts down top 1% times at the local rent-a-go-cart place
6- someone who wins the local amateur cart races or quarter-midget races
7- a person who takes a >300 HP car to a track day and behaves respectably
8- a amateur race winner, not ovals <-- this is where the GT Academy guys fall, maybe even an 8.2 on the scale
9- a lower tier open wheel or endurance racer
10- the F1 champion
The point being that the GT Academy drivers take a lot of instruction to get from 3-4 to 8-8.2.
Ok, so from my perspective, it doesn't make sense to quibble about whether one video game makes a driver a 3.2 on this scale while another video game makes a driver a 3.3 on this scale.
Scaff
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I wasn't so in tune with the what was going on in the tyres (I want a wheel!), I could tell forza did that better but the other aspects to me seemed to be recreated more authentically. For example in Forza there is less variation in the "poise" of a car. Every car is "hoon-friendly" and the ease of drifting (as in mild powersliding through turns as opposed to full on D1 level) is probably the best example of this. In GT5 you get cars with lots of understeer stock, cars that kick the tail out with the slightest amount of excess throttle, for me it was about perception and the "feel" of the game more than scrutinising what's responsible.
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Funny because the same thread in GTP has more votes for GT5. I have Horizon and GT5 reg. edition and I'd have to say that FMH has NFSU like physics. The screen is all shaky and meh. I love Forza, especially for it's features, but I just can't stand the physics. GT5 is just unexplainable. Absolutely amazing physics. All Forza needs is physics and they are right on target. GT5 is like a pure, real driving experience. Of course, GT5 is a simulator and Forza is a arcade game, but GT5 ATW (All the Way).
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*gets popcorn ready*
McLaren
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There's that stupid excuse GT5 fans always have to post when they can't make any argument to begin with.
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The thread is called Forza 4 vs. GT5 so I don't know why you're bringing Horizon into this.
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- Exorcet
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I don't drift in either game, but weight transfer crushes this argument. FF and AWD are usually super stable in GT. In Forza, get off the gas and turn hard and you'll probably end up spinning.
Cars with undersized tires suffer a lot more in Forza too. In GT, overpower a regular commuter car and all that really happens is you run into the lazy longitudinal grip limit and it takes 50 days to accelerate. Sometimes even with high end tires. In Forza, my highly tuned SRT-4 with AWD was literally all over the place before I upped the tire width. It couldn't turn, stop, go, or remain steady at all. The Z4 GT3 car is similar.
Well, that's not physics then. I'd also have to disagree with your opinion on feel. GT5 feels a lot less varied. Some types of cars especially (low powered FF and old muscle cars) feel dead in GT. At the other end, the difference between GT's Super GT cars and Forza's are pretty big. GT's versions have seemingly infinite grip by comparison, even if you drive like an ape.
If it was you wouldn't have been corrected.
McLaren
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Maybe you should come back into this thread when you've had some actual time playing FM4.
Horizon's physics are not the same.
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Scaff
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What your describing in FM4 as unrealistic is the progression you actually get from tyres, as you move through understeer to mild oversteer (which is not drifting). This is more controllable in FM4 because the tyre model is actually progressive in how it moves from grip to loss of grip, rather than acting in an almost digital manner.
Yes you get understeer in both (too much in GT5) which in FM4 you can control via the throttle and/or steering input and even transition into lift off oversteer, in GT5 understeer is pretty much terminal and once it goes past a certain point is unrecoverable (and not realistic).
It sounds I must confess as if you feel GT5 is more realistic, but without using the real world as your benchmark, rather just going by difficult = real (from GT5s snap oversteer and overly heavy understeer).
Now both titles need a lot more to be 'realistic', but a lot of what is going on in GT5 is quite a way behind FM4 in that regard (and don't get me started on the RR models in GT5 - so wrong its not even funny).
So the title that actually simulates less and has a significantly more basic tyre and suspension model is a sim, but the one that does cover these areas is an arcade game?
Take a Shelby Cobra in GT5 and do a full throttle launch from standstill, once done come back and let us know what it did and why is a realistic simulation of how a car handles.
McLaren
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How do you know? You've never played FM4.
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McLaren
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If you have, you wouldn't have made the comments you did.Um I actually have. And if I haven't how would you know? Do you stalk me at night?
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I'd hate to burst your bubble, ye GT5 lovers...
But FM4 has an edge when it comes to physics. Based on what you might wonder?
I'll say it again: in comparison and based on actual high speed driving, NOT other driving games or sims.
Please go ahead and drive any high powered AWD or RWD car, push it to the limits, then post an educated comment, thank you!
Scaff's explanations are spot on.
I switched to FM permanently, a while after FM4 was released, for this very reason: the sheer depth of the driving experience.
Somebody once said, I believe it was this very forum: FM4 is a GREAT game with minor flaws, whereas with GT5, unfortunately (boo hooo, end of the world), it's the other way around.
The cold truth... is usually a bitter pill to swallow.
But FM4 has an edge when it comes to physics. Based on what you might wonder?
I'll say it again: in comparison and based on actual high speed driving, NOT other driving games or sims.
Please go ahead and drive any high powered AWD or RWD car, push it to the limits, then post an educated comment, thank you!
Scaff's explanations are spot on.
I switched to FM permanently, a while after FM4 was released, for this very reason: the sheer depth of the driving experience.
Somebody once said, I believe it was this very forum: FM4 is a GREAT game with minor flaws, whereas with GT5, unfortunately (boo hooo, end of the world), it's the other way around.
The cold truth... is usually a bitter pill to swallow.
I know it feels like you "probably" will, but if you wait for it you'll never get it. I've tried. That hint of liftoff oversteer is still better than nothing -- and many of the cars in GT5 will give you precisely nothing -- but it's not enough, certainly not to cause a spin by the sort of driver error you described. That's more Enthusia and PC sim territory.
In GT5, the violent lift-throttle heave of the mid- and rear-engined cars is way excessive, but ultimately closer to reality, IMO. It's nice that they actually bite, although I still think the effect seems awfully "canned" or scripted.
The physics are almost exactly the same, and anyone here who disagrees hasn't given Horizon a fair shake (and neither have you if you consider it "arcade" or remotely similar to NFSU)...but it's a different tire model. You might as well be comparing GT5 to FM3. Thank you for throwing Horizon under the bus to take an underhanded jab at the Forza series and give GT5 a leg up, though. Those wounds needed some fresh air.
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- Exorcet
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I'd say it's car/situation dependent. It's not a guaranteed thing for sure, which is why I included that word, and in some cases it might take a bit more rough treatment to get it to show, but to say it never happens in Forza is unfair.
Off the top of my head, the Ford Ka starter was easy enough to find lift off oversteer on, and the WRX from demo could lose it pretty far in the S turns, I don't think I've tried to replicate that in the full game though.
^ I've spun from the confluence of extreme weight shifting and track conditions (grass under the wheels or camber/elevation changes), and more often in Horizon than FM4, but in a "controlled" environment like the Top Gear Test Track, Benchmark, etc., it seems impossible to generate a spin.
Even Gran Turismo 4 could whip a 180 with assistance like that, so it doesn't amount to much, IMO.
Even Gran Turismo 4 could whip a 180 with assistance like that, so it doesn't amount to much, IMO.
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- Exorcet
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You don't need track assistance. The Ford Ka example specifically refers to my first time driving it and oversteering through one of the corners on a fairly flat track (forgot the name, a short version of the track with the extra grippy yellow pavement on the sides).
The Elise I was driving a little while ago would oversteer just from general driving if I let the gas all the way off.
The Elise I was driving a little while ago would oversteer just from general driving if I let the gas all the way off.
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