Forza 4 vs GT5 physics

Which game do you find has superior physics?

  • Gran Turismo 5

    Votes: 68 31.5%
  • Forza 4

    Votes: 103 47.7%
  • They are equal

    Votes: 45 20.8%

  • Total voters
    216
Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh right, well ill think you will find we are more level headed over here. I would definitely recommend normal steering for a pad as sim steering is for 900 degree wheels.

Normal steering is what I've been using with the pad
 
You dont like FM4's physics, sounds, car lists, visuals, etc?! Nothing at all it seems...
What wheel did you use and what game/wheel settings did you select?

You just ended up ranting off against MS with the typical dribble I read from brand loyalists of a single platform.. really?! You mentioned paying for online and even brought up HDMI cable (last I checked no single electronic hardware today that I know of has an HDMI cable packed in, not even the PS3) and even brought up battery packs... hdd and wifi as well!!! lolz... smh


Edit: saw you said CSR-Elite, then the typical 'it was a friend's/at a friend's house.' So... what wheel and in game settings did you use? Any assists? Game and wheel fully patched to latest firmware?
Sorry but I am having a really hard time believing you had such a horrid experience with 1 game and not the other while using one of the best wheels on the market for both. Both gt5 and fm4 are phenomenal games especially with a wheel as good as a csr-e (I have the normal csr wheel with csr-e pedals) even though neither are perfect. I think just about everyone on here has fully acknowledged faults with both games. Go to fm.net or gtp and you will see mostly extreme defense of the preferred game with a ton of 'experience' at kiosks, friend's houses or what they have read online as fact. If I am wrong I apologize but the interwebs doesnt need more of this.
 
You dont like FM4's physics, sounds, car lists, visuals, etc?! Nothing at all it seems...
What wheel did you use and what game/wheel settings did you select?

You just ended up ranting off against MS with the typical dribble I read from brand loyalists of a single platform.. really?! You mentioned paying for online and even brought up HDMI cable (last I checked no single electronic hardware today that I know of has an HDMI cable packed in, not even the PS3) and even brought up battery packs... hdd and wifi as well!!! lolz... smh


Edit: saw you said CSR-Elite, then the typical 'it was a friend's/at a friend's house.' So... what wheel and in game settings did you use? Any assists? Game and wheel fully patched to latest firmware?
Sorry but I am having a really hard time believing you had such a horrid experience with 1 game and not the other while using one of the best wheels on the market for both. Both gt5 and fm4 are phenomenal games especially with a wheel as good as a csr-e (I have the normal csr wheel with csr-e pedals) even though neither are perfect. I think just about everyone on here has fully acknowledged faults with both games. Go to fm.net or gtp and you will see mostly extreme defense of the preferred game with a ton of 'experience' at kiosks, friend's houses or what they have read online as fact. If I am wrong I apologize but the interwebs doesnt need more of this.

No, it wasn't at a friends house, I told him I was going to buy a xbox 360 on christmas and he was kind enough to lend me his wheel for over a month, I already have a DFGT for GT5 but with the CSR being multiplatform compatible I was able to experience both with a really high end wheel, my friend is into PC sim racing so he wanted his wheel back, I did tests on the gamepad too, DS3 vs Xbox 360 gamepad and in both cases, GT5 felt more realistic to me, it's not that Forza felt bad or anything, its just that there were things that go against common sense and real life track experience, of course I'm not a track expert but I've been to some and driven on some others and FM4 just isn't there.

For the ''in game'' settings I went with 900 degrees rotation, simulation steering, I took all deadzones (inside) to 0 and played with no assists, ABS included and tried a lot of stock cars. The same for GT5. With the gamepad, I have it with zero deadzones (inside) and maxed out on the ''outside'' settings, using normal steering and no assists inlcuding ABS, like I said it's not a thing like Shift's where the steering was odd and twitchy, it's a going against laws of physics thing because the game is playable, there's no doibt about that.

As for other things, yeah, I really don't like the graphics, I've been having technical problems and I have a decent TV with a decent HDMI cable (which btw my old FAT PS3 did come with one included 6 years ago) and visually I don't like it, I managed to get rid of the extreme track brightness and cartoon-like colors but the textures are really bad. Interiors look like the
default render from a random 3D modeling software, you know, when you haven't assigned any materials to the model or any kind of lightning, you just get a light grey 3D model with basic shadows. I swear I'm not trolling, this is how it looks to me.

Sounds, much better than GT5 but what was T10 thinking when they assigned the same engine note for all cars? the only thing that makes them different is the exhaust note, tire sounds are fine but the sound they make when you lock up your wheels is horrible, comparable to GT 1 tire sounds.

Track list, lacks variety and a lot of real world circuits.

Car list, good but flashy, too many supercars and still missing the really good ones, it's like a game made by Top Gear, you only get cars that are driven on the show or are talked about on the show. I hate this word but it describes it perfectly, ''mainstream'' car list.

With that being said, the one thing that I find really good in FM4 is the Livery Editor and in GT5, the Nordschleife and Photo Mode, thats really it.
 
Sounds, much better than GT5 but what was T10 thinking when they assigned the same engine note for all cars? the only thing that makes them different is the exhaust note, tire sounds are fine but the sound they make when you lock up your wheels is horrible, comparable to GT 1 tire sounds.

The same engine note for all cars.......what. I'm no sound expert but to me each and every car sounds different. The tire sounds when you lock up your wheels is realistic, screeching tires is not a nice sound. When you say things like comparable to gt1 tire sounds it makes me think you are the typical GT5 player who never really gave forza a chance. Like I said I've put atleast a hundred hours into both, I like both games but you just seem to want to bad mouth forza.

EDIT: I wouldn't exactly call Morgan, Hennessey, Mosler, Devon etc mainstream car manufacturers would you.
 
No, it wasn't at a friends house, I told him I was going to buy a xbox 360 on christmas and he was kind enough to lend me his wheel for over a month, I already have a DFGT for GT5 but with the CSR being multiplatform compatible I was able to experience both with a really high end wheel, my friend is into PC sim racing so he wanted his wheel back, I did tests on the gamepad too, DS3 vs Xbox 360 gamepad and in both cases, GT5 felt more realistic to me, it's not that Forza felt bad or anything, its just that there were things that go against common sense and real life track experience, of course I'm not a track expert but I've been to some and driven on some others and FM4 just isn't there.

For the ''in game'' settings I went with 900 degrees rotation, simulation steering, I took all deadzones (inside) to 0 and played with no assists, ABS included and tried a lot of stock cars. The same for GT5. With the gamepad, I have it with zero deadzones (inside) and maxed out on the ''outside'' settings, using normal steering and no assists inlcuding ABS, like I said it's not a thing like Shift's where the steering was odd and twitchy, it's a going against laws of physics thing because the game is playable, there's no doibt about that.

As for other things, yeah, I really don't like the graphics, I've been having technical problems and I have a decent TV with a decent HDMI cable (which btw my old FAT PS3 did come with one included 6 years ago) and visually I don't like it, I managed to get rid of the extreme track brightness and cartoon-like colors but the textures are really bad. Interiors look like the
default render from a random 3D modeling software, you know, when you haven't assigned any materials to the model or any kind of lightning, you just get a light grey 3D model with basic shadows. I swear I'm not trolling, this is how it looks to me.

Sounds, much better than GT5 but what was T10 thinking when they assigned the same engine note for all cars? the only thing that makes them different is the exhaust note, tire sounds are fine but the sound they make when you lock up your wheels is horrible, comparable to GT 1 tire sounds.

Track list, lacks variety and a lot of real world circuits.

Car list, good but flashy, too many supercars and still missing the really good ones, it's like a game made by Top Gear, you only get cars that are driven on the show or are talked about on the show. I hate this word but it describes it perfectly, ''mainstream'' car list.

With that being said, the one thing that I find really good in FM4 is the Livery Editor and in GT5, the Nordschleife and Photo Mode, thats really it.

Most of this should be in a normal vs thread as this is more for physics. I will however disagree with your opinion using wheel and pad. To me both are very close and feel real but FM4 edges out GT5 regardless of user input method. There are many times that to me, GT5 feels too easy especially compared to FM4 but neither are as realistic than most core sims I have tried out. FM and GT are my favorite franchises so I love the direct competition they have. They both have pros and cons and both could do well by copying highlights of the competing game.

To me the graphics are fine and I think look great in fm4. The lighting engine, although improved, is still not comparable to gt5s. The cockpits are hit and miss as some look great but some not so much. Problem is that gt5 is such an inconsistent game that the moments it shines on premium tracks in premium cars are overshadowed by the standards. PD have patched many standards to look good but the disparity is still obvious. The standards ARE that bad, blacked out cockpits are a joke, and sadly make up the majority of the game as 80% are in fact standards. Personally I would rather have all cars and tracks and features the same level because you judge things by the norm, and in gt the norm is sadly standards.

Sounds I first ask you 2 questions. What sound setup did you hear them from and no offense but are you deaf?! Not a dig attempt. It is laughable how poor the sounds are in gt5 especially when you hear them from a proper audio setup. The only advantage that gt5 has is how it handles the sound in the digital space but due to crap audio source it gets lost completely. VR6 equipped VWs in forza 4 sound like the infamous vr snarl it has, you know when VTEC kicks in, so many more examples of accurate engine sounds.. then you have better tire sounds as well and just through the sounds you can tell when you are in grip and when in slip. Crash and bump sounds, turbos and supercharger spooling sounds, exhaust notes... so many examples I can give. There just isnt a comparison. Gt5 sounds are crap in comparison but I will say that T10 did turn the volume up a tad overall than they probably should have but id rather have that than vacuum sounds for engines and the exact same thud regardless if in a kart at 10mph or heavy pickup truck at 110mph.. and dont get me started on the tires again. PD need a complete audio overhaul, it is embarrassing when I read Yamauchi's blind audio defense. Sorry man, but its that far apart in quality.

Regarding track lists, there are more track locations (real world tracks) in forza4 than in gt5. Toss in fictional and forza4 has it as well. I am disappointed in gt5 track creator because i expected more but i hope PD expands this really good idea. Nordschliefe is by far superior in gt5 but that is beyond obvious. Compare the Laguna Secas in both and it leans heavy in favor for fm4 (and by no means as much a difference in quality that nord is in both. T10 need to redo nord from scratch although NurburgringGP I think is done really well.

With car lists, there is more variety than in gt5. This has been shown even with graphs. Forza4 has as many supercars as it does econobox daily drivers we all can afford, even better yet spread from across the globe.
 
The same engine note for all cars.......what. I'm no sound expert but to me each and every car sounds different. The tire sounds when you lock up your wheels is realistic, screeching tires is not a nice sound. When you say things like comparable to gt1 tire sounds it makes me think you are the typical GT5 player who never really gave forza a chance. Like I said I've put atleast a hundred hours into both, I like both games but you just seem to want to bad mouth forza.

EDIT: I wouldn't exactly call Morgan, Hennessey, Mosler, Devon etc mainstream car manufacturers would you.

Those are just as mainstream as Pagani and Koenigsegg and I'm talking about specific cars within the mainstream manufacturers too, for an example, why can't I drive an Alpine A110? it's a pretty well known car too, or a Merc C class Sport Coupe? beautiful car wasn't it? Peugeot 406 coupe? styled by Pininfarina, Jaguar E-type lightweight? I'm stucked with the coupe piece of crap version. The Ferrari 275 GTB? my all time favorite Ferrari, just gorgeous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EpOUSLz8-o

Having RUF over Gemballa? really? Where is my Lamborghini Jalpa? ...anyway...

It's not about the way the tire locking up sounds, it's about the way it loops horribly like in GT 1, it loops at the same rate regardles of the level of friction against the road, listen to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaJMZzAFjbk

It's sounds like ''wind blowing hard'' effect from the early 90s.

Most of this should be in a normal vs thread as this is more for physics. I will however disagree with your opinion using wheel and pad. To me both are very close and feel real but FM4 edges out GT5 regardless of user input method. There are many times that to me, GT5 feels too easy especially compared to FM4 but neither are as realistic than most core sims I have tried out. FM and GT are my favorite franchises so I love the direct competition they have. They both have pros and cons and both could do well by copying highlights of the competing game.

To me the graphics are fine and I think look great in fm4. The lighting engine, although improved, is still not comparable to gt5s. The cockpits are hit and miss as some look great but some not so much. Problem is that gt5 is such an inconsistent game that the moments it shines on premium tracks in premium cars are overshadowed by the standards. PD have patched many standards to look good but the disparity is still obvious. The standards ARE that bad, blacked out cockpits are a joke, and sadly make up the majority of the game as 80% are in fact standards. Personally I would rather have all cars and tracks and features the same level because you judge things by the norm, and in gt the norm is sadly standards.

Sounds I first ask you 2 questions. What sound setup did you hear them from and no offense but are you deaf?! Not a dig attempt. It is laughable how poor the sounds are in gt5 especially when you hear them from a proper audio setup. The only advantage that gt5 has is how it handles the sound in the digital space but due to crap audio source it gets lost completely. VR6 equipped VWs in forza 4 sound like the infamous vr snarl it has, you know when VTEC kicks in, so many more examples of accurate engine sounds.. then you have better tire sounds as well and just through the sounds you can tell when you are in grip and when in slip. Crash and bump sounds, turbos and supercharger spooling sounds, exhaust notes... so many examples I can give. There just isnt a comparison. Gt5 sounds are crap in comparison but I will say that T10 did turn the volume up a tad overall than they probably should have but id rather have that than vacuum sounds for engines and the exact same thud regardless if in a kart at 10mph or heavy pickup truck at 110mph.. and dont get me started on the tires again. PD need a complete audio overhaul, it is embarrassing when I read Yamauchi's blind audio defense. Sorry man, but its that far apart in quality.

Regarding track lists, there are more track locations (real world tracks) in forza4 than in gt5. Toss in fictional and forza4 has it as well. I am disappointed in gt5 track creator because i expected more but i hope PD expands this really good idea. Nordschliefe is by far superior in gt5 but that is beyond obvious. Compare the Laguna Secas in both and it leans heavy in favor for fm4 (and by no means as much a difference in quality that nord is in both. T10 need to redo nord from scratch although NurburgringGP I think is done really well.

With car lists, there is more variety than in gt5. This has been shown even with graphs. Forza4 has as many supercars as it does econobox daily drivers we all can afford, even better yet spread from across the globe.

Lol, I'm not deaf, I'm a serious car sound guy, so I won't tolerate anything that is not spot on, I never said GT5 sounded great, honestly is the worst sounding game ever and I mean sound sample wise because the sound design and the way the envirorment affects the perception like in replays and such is really high quality, FM4 has good sound design too but my god, did they really need to put v12 sound samples on little hatchbacks? I think FM4's problem is that it has no personality, it tries to copy GT too much but tries to appeal NFS players at the same time giving them over the top arcade style engine sounds, over cooked lightning effects and contrast and like I said earlier, ''mainstream'' cars
 
Most people buy the xbox to play games of all sorts.
So with that aside, except for you guys who bought the wheel as an add on and made an investment..to me I look at it from a simple approach...it's $40 to buy FM4 and if the sound is a little off, the graphics are not as good as GT5...debatable........it's $40....$40...

When I listen to races I recorded the sound through the sound system is still pretty darn good. IMHO....$40
 
Most people buy the xbox to play games of all sorts.
So with that aside, except for you guys who bought the wheel as an add on and made an investment..to me I look at it from a simple approach...it's $40 to buy FM4 and if the sound is a little off, the graphics are not as good as GT5...debatable........it's $40....$40...

When I listen to races I recorded the sound through the sound system is still pretty darn good. IMHO....$40

Absolutely, I bought the Xbox just for Forza but I've been playing Skyrim a lot more, in my opinion a much better experience and game than the other two but I could have got Skyrim for PS3 anyway so I pretty much wasted my money and in FM4's case, you need Xbox Live Gold to be able to create custom races against the AI and almost half of the game requires a Gold memebership, I present to you..... :tup:Microsoft:tup: :banghead:
 
I think people here are confused because you seem to expect everything and a half from FM4, mike, but when it comes to GT5 all you have to say is "yeah it sucks." It could be considered a testament to FM4's quality that you have such high expectations.

As for Morgan, Mosler, and Devon being mainstream...I think Inigo Montoya would have something to say about that. Companies like Hennessey, Pagani, and Koenigsegg are certainly popular among enthusiasts, but I've never seen one of their cars on the street, have you? The C-class is a pretty typical M-B, and the Alpine A110 is a bit "unusual" but it has also appeared in more games than I can recall off the top of my head.

It's clear you'd like fewer contemporary exotics/supercars, and I agree with that, but I don't know how you could classify your other choices. You seem to have simply picked a few that you think look pretty.
 
I think people here are confused because you seem to expect everything and a half from FM4, mike, but when it comes to GT5 all you have to say is "yeah it sucks." It could be considered a testament to FM4's quality that you have such high expectations.

As for Morgan, Mosler, and Devon being mainstream...I think Inigo Montoya would have something to say about that. Companies like Hennessey, Pagani, and Koenigsegg are certainly popular among enthusiasts, but I've never seen one of their cars on the street, have you? The C-class is a pretty typical M-B, and the Alpine A110 is a bit "unusual" but it has also appeared in more games than I can recall off the top of my head.

It's clear you'd like fewer contemporary exotics/supercars, and I agree with that, but I don't know how you could classify your other choices. You seem to have simply picked a few that you think look pretty.

I know my choices weren't that ''unusual'' I was just giving an example but yes I do like the looks of a car, I'm an automotive designer, go figure, not yet cause I'm still in college but I've had some interesting projects with NISSAN. If I had a serious whishlist for FM4, there would be much more Super GT cars, Group C cars and maybe early GT1 cars in there.

Also, what do you want me to expect from FM4 if everyone promotes it as the best and most realistic game on consoles to date, it was too good to be true so I had to see it with my own eyes and now I'm dissapointed beyond repair because now I know there's nothing for me on consoles because these two games together are supposed to be the greatest experience yet so I should be happy now that I own both but in the end I just found another GT5 with a different name on it, different flaws but just as broken. I honestly think I could do a better job than these studios, if I had the resources of course.
 
Like Yoda once said " There is no complaining there is Play or Play not.."

I for one play FM4...even if I suck.
 
Those are just as mainstream as Pagani and Koenigsegg and I'm talking about specific cars within the mainstream manufacturers too, for an example, why can't I drive an Alpine A110? it's a pretty well known car too, or a Merc C class Sport Coupe? beautiful car wasn't it? Peugeot 406 coupe? styled by Pininfarina, Jaguar E-type lightweight? I'm stucked with the coupe piece of crap version. The Ferrari 275 GTB? my all time favorite Ferrari, just gorgeous.
No car list is going to be perfect and while I can think of a few cars I would want to add to the FM4 car list, with the DLC I can honestly not think of another title that covers the range of cars as well as FM4 does.

I do find it a bit of a strange thing to make such a deal of given that this was one of the areas that was totally transparent to you well before buying into the game.


Having RUF over Gemballa? really?
In a heartbeat, as far as contribution to the Automotive world I would rate RUF well above Gemballa.


It's not about the way the tire locking up sounds, it's about the way it loops horribly like in GT 1, it loops at the same rate regardles of the level of friction against the road, listen to it

It's sounds like ''wind blowing hard'' effect from the early 90s.
FM4 sounds like tyre locking up to me, again not exact but perfectly function and close enough to the large amount of rubber I've personally destroyed.



FM4 has good sound design too but my god, did they really need to put v12 sound samples on little hatchbacks?
Now you see its hyperbole like this that does you no favours at all in the way you come across. FM4 does not put a V12 sound sample in a single "little hatchback", so why say it?


I think FM4's problem is that it has no personality, it tries to copy GT too much but tries to appeal NFS players at the same time giving them over the top arcade style engine sounds, over cooked lightning effects and contrast and like I said earlier, ''mainstream'' cars
Well given that Forza was a direct response by MS to the GT series its no wonder that it has similar areas, but it certainly does have a personality and feel of its own. That it may not appeal to you is a different matter. As for arcade sound and overcooked graphics, again yes it is a bit strong on some tracks, but certainly not all of them and all of this was quite clearly in the public arena.




Absolutely, I bought the Xbox just for Forza but I've been playing Skyrim a lot more, in my opinion a much better experience and game than the other two but I could have got Skyrim for PS3 anyway so I pretty much wasted my money and in FM4's case, you need Xbox Live Gold to be able to create custom races against the AI and almost half of the game requires a Gold memebership, I present to you..... :tup:Microsoft:tup: :banghead:
No you do not need Gold to get access to almost half of the game and to spend on a console for a single title is always going to be a major risk. However a lot of your comments in this area are getting well off topic and come across simple as an attempt to have a go at MS (however for the record Sony have never supplied a HDMI cable with a PS3 in Europe - no idea about other markets, but in Europe MS and Sony are identical).


I know my choices weren't that ''unusual'' I was just giving an example but yes I do like the looks of a car, I'm an automotive designer, go figure, not yet cause I'm still in college but I've had some interesting projects with NISSAN. If I had a serious whishlist for FM4, there would be much more Super GT cars, Group C cars and maybe early GT1 cars in there.
So by less mainstream cars what you actually mean is more racecars?


Also, what do you want me to expect from FM4 if everyone promotes it as the best and most realistic game on consoles to date, it was too good to be true so I had to see it with my own eyes and now I'm dissapointed beyond repair because now I know there's nothing for me on consoles because these two games together are supposed to be the greatest experience yet so I should be happy now that I own both but in the end I just found another GT5 with a different name on it, different flaws but just as broken.
I'm going to be a bit blunt here, but who do you actually believe is at fault for this?

You seem to want to blame (and I'm talking about both GT5 and FM4 here) everyone on the planet(s) for this, yet these were buying choices that you entered into willingly. The information about car lists, track lists and features was all available to you in advance; the internet is awash with videos of both that show exactly what they look and sound like.

Now that does leave the physics side of things (bloody hell I managed to get it back on topic), but did you honestly not have a single friend that had a PS3/GT5 and/or 360/FM4 that you could have had a go on? They are after all not exactly niche titles that only a handful of people own are they. Even if you are utterly bereft of friends (and you have already said you are not) you could have given these a go in a shop, after all with the degree of issues both titles have you would surely have been able to rule out buying them from that alone.

Personally I think that in terms of best and most realistic sim on a console its a toss-up between RacePro and FM4, the difference I suspect is that I was realistic about what the 'best and most realistic' was going to entail. I have played just about every console sim (and a good number of PC ones) and knew the limitations the hardware and marketing demands placed on the likely high-point.


I honestly think I could do a better job than these studios, if I had the resources of course.
Your a design student with I suspect a very limited amount of real world project and product management skills and experience, however please don't that this the wrong way, but I do not honestly believe you could do a better job at all, even with the same resources these companies have to hand.
 
Thing is, FM4 looks better on YT than it does Live. Sounds, I knew how they they were going to be, I just thought I would find something that didn't sound the same. In the end, FM4 is not what people say it is and most of my friends are non-gamers and if they are, they are into actual games, not ''sims'' or any kind of racing game. At school though, almost everybody has tried different sims since we are all car lovers, but we never really talk about it much because we all know they are just games.

My complaint isn't against the game itself, I know how it is, you don't need to defend it, my complaint is against the biased community and what these studios do is nothing special, nothing anybody with the necesary resources and a bit of training could do. Look at all the ideas posted on forums to make these games better. Some are unreal but some are pure gold, if a ''nobody'' can come up with ideas like that, why is it so hard for the ''experts''? They have the time, the money and the knowledge yet they deliver half assed games with a bunch of excuses. We all know that a lot flaws are not even hardware related, they are bad decisions after all. Wierd, you would think that with the time they have been around they would know how to make a good game but they love to brag about their games don't they? Dan Greenwalt says ''we are the best'' and Kazunori says ''we are just too real'' somebody need to give these guys a reality check.

Enough ranting, I promise I won't take this off-topic again.
 
To bring the thread back on topic :D I had a very long session on GT5 the other day in a series I race in and while you can see the tire improvements you still can't feel them through the wheel. The ffb is non existent, I just don't get it. While es there has been an improvement it is still like you have polished a turd really because the basic tire model that was already there can only be improved to a certain extent. Forzas is still the more advanced model and you no it will be improved upon in forza 5 because turn 10 have improved the physics with every game they have released. I also hope PD dump GTs tire model for a new one and dump all the unnecessary cars that don't need to be there.
 
Now that does leave the physics side of things (bloody hell I managed to get it back on topic)...
That made me :lol:
Personally I think that in terms of best and most realistic sim on a console its a toss-up between RacePro and FM4
I still think FM4 needs work on the fundamentals to match the intuitive feeling of EPR. It clearly has more details, but some, like fuel usage and tire wear, are beyond useless in the context of FM4's sprint races. Tire wear doesn't even seem to accumulate as quickly as it should.

Also, what do you want me to expect from FM4 if everyone promotes it as the best and most realistic game on consoles to date, it was too good to be true...
Is it really "too good to be true" if it's more-or-less correct? Like Scaff said, if you're familiar with what consoles have to offer, you'll recognize that GT5 and FM4 are two of the best. And in spite of our complaints, their "simplified" gameplay is essentially the only reason they're still around. Any game that tops them in realism is either a niche title or a commercial flop.

It bothers me when zealous forum members place Forza or Gran Turismo on a pedestal above everything -- either because they've never played a PC sim or won't acknowledge them -- but what can you do.
 
Those are just as mainstream as Pagani and Koenigsegg and I'm talking about specific cars within the mainstream manufacturers too, for an example, why can't I drive an Alpine A110? it's a pretty well known car too, or a Merc C class Sport Coupe? beautiful car wasn't it? Peugeot 406 coupe? styled by Pininfarina, Jaguar E-type lightweight? I'm stucked with the coupe piece of crap version. The Ferrari 275 GTB? my all time favorite Ferrari, just gorgeous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EpOUSLz8-o

Having RUF over Gemballa? really? Where is my Lamborghini Jalpa? ...anyway...

It's not about the way the tire locking up sounds, it's about the way it loops horribly like in GT 1, it loops at the same rate regardles of the level of friction against the road, listen to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaJMZzAFjbk

It's sounds like ''wind blowing hard'' effect from the early 90s.

We can all be here dissecting car lists and wondering why car x instead of car y, and why no car z. So really you are rambling away more than anything.
I for sure would not consider Mosler or Devon or Morgan as being mainstream by any means.

Lol, I'm not deaf, I'm a serious car sound guy, so I won't tolerate anything that is not spot on, I never said GT5 sounded great, honestly is the worst sounding game ever and I mean sound sample wise because the sound design and the way the envirorment affects the perception like in replays and such is really high quality, FM4 has good sound design too but my god, did they really need to put v12 sound samples on little hatchbacks? I think FM4's problem is that it has no personality, it tries to copy GT too much but tries to appeal NFS players at the same time giving them over the top arcade style engine sounds, over cooked lightning effects and contrast and like I said earlier, ''mainstream'' cars

I too am a serious car guy especially with sounds and I find it extremely hard to understand how you hate on forza 4 engine sounds and not so much about the horrible gt5 engine sounds (and almost all gt5 sounds in general really). No hatchback in fm4 is sampled with a v12, so more fabrications and assumptions. What you hear is t10's decision to turn the volume up on all cars so a Toyota Vitz in stock form is much louder than it probably should be. Who is guilty here is PD for reusing the same audio samples for the bulk of cars and tossing in some bad digitized form of an already bad audio source to which still to this day gt gets criticized and laughed at. Like I said, who needs the complete audio overhaul across the board is PD for GT series, NOT t10 for FM series. If anything, t10 should just turn down the engine sounds a bit on smaller stock cars cuz they shouldn't be as loud as they are especially in stock form. Between both games, forza is what sounds closest to the real thing, and it didn't start with fm4. It got better with each iteration and improved even more thanks to them now having the main pgr audio guru. GT has never sounded good nor realistic. Hoovers and Dysons is what still comes to mind, as sad as that is.


To be on topic, I put some time with a pad in gt5 in one of the latest seasonals using a cappuccino. No abs (I usually do 1 with pad). Game is patched to the latest. Certainly feels better now than what i recall. Will try with my wheel this weekend.
 
We can all be here dissecting car lists and wondering why car x instead of car y, and why no car z. So really you are rambling away more than anything.
I for sure would not consider Mosler or Devon or Morgan as being mainstream by any means.



I too am a serious car guy especially with sounds and I find it extremely hard to understand how you hate on forza 4 engine sounds and not so much about the horrible gt5 engine sounds (and almost all gt5 sounds in general really). No hatchback in fm4 is sampled with a v12, so more fabrications and assumptions. What you hear is t10's decision to turn the volume up on all cars so a Toyota Vitz in stock form is much louder than it probably should be. Who is guilty here is PD for reusing the same audio samples for the bulk of cars and tossing in some bad digitized form of an already bad audio source to which still to this day gt gets criticized and laughed at. Like I said, who needs the complete audio overhaul across the board is PD for GT series, NOT t10 for FM series. If anything, t10 should just turn down the engine sounds a bit on smaller stock cars cuz they shouldn't be as loud as they are especially in stock form. Between both games, forza is what sounds closest to the real thing, and it didn't start with fm4. It got better with each iteration and improved even more thanks to them now having the main pgr audio guru. GT has never sounded good nor realistic. Hoovers and Dysons is what still comes to mind, as sad as that is.


To be on topic, I put some time with a pad in gt5 in one of the latest seasonals using a cappuccino. No abs (I usually do 1 with pad). Game is patched to the latest. Certainly feels better now than what i recall. Will try with my wheel this weekend.

I've just said that GT5 is the worst sounding game ever, did you not read my post? I'm not talking too much about the source, we know GT5's samples are **** but they did a great job making the overall sound realistic, the dynamic range for sound in GT5 is much more complex than in FM4. I did a test once, I went online with a friend to Circuit de la Sarthe, I grabbed a Mini and he grabbed the mighty Mazda 787B (probably the best sounding car in GT5 and it's still half decent) I parked at the end of Mulsanne meanwhile he stayed at the finish line, once I was parked, he began driving, I could hear his car coming from miles away (just like in real life) he parked on the first chicane of Mulsanne and I could hear his car's idle. I saved the replay, watched it again and the same happened. I was amazed by that, only PD would put so much effort in such a small thing like that, something that 99.99% of players won't ever notice.

It wasn't just a low volume sound looping, it came with echos and doppler effects, I could hear it downshifting and accelerating and becoming louder as he got closer to me until my car was completely muted and I saw him fly by me, go around that tight corner at the end of Mulsanne and then go away and like in real life, the range was shortened once he was in front of me, this doesn't happen in FM4 but you still get nice doppler effects. However, any serious car sound guy would know that FM4 isn't any closer than GT5 from the real thing, it sounds better but not closer.

I think we should take this to the normal FM4 vs GT5 thread, I still have that replay but I don't have a recording device and recording it off-screen would destroy the quality of the video.
 
OK, I don't understand why controller user can't enjoy the benefits of SIM steering.

NORMAL just feels dull and numb.. just too easy. I love the constant adjustments and intricate inputs you need on SIM steering, to catch that perfect line, and exit corners with speed.

Wolfe said: Enthusia allows tank-slappers to swing out of control, too, something that FM4 seldom does. We both know EPR is somewhat forgiving compared to real life, but you can still end up backing into a spin at full-lock countersteer. In FM4, you can save damn near anything. The Shelby Cobra, for example, is an unflappable drift-master, always firmly under your control.

Boy, that's a BIG disagree from my end! You get any funny ideas, and the car bites and can often react violently depending on how much you've goofed. Are you sure you got your dead zones set right? And no assists?
 
OK, I don't understand why controller user can't enjoy the benefits of SIM steering.

NORMAL just feels dull and numb.. just too easy. I love the constant adjustments and intricate inputs you need on SIM steering, to catch that perfect line, and exit corners with speed.

Wolfe said: Enthusia allows tank-slappers to swing out of control, too, something that FM4 seldom does. We both know EPR is somewhat forgiving compared to real life, but you can still end up backing into a spin at full-lock countersteer. In FM4, you can save damn near anything. The Shelby Cobra, for example, is an unflappable drift-master, always firmly under your control.

Boy, that's a BIG disagree from my end! You get any funny ideas, and the car bites and can often react violently depending on how much you've goofed. Are you sure you got your dead zones set right? And no assists?

With a control pad maybe, with 900 degree sim steering if the back end goes you rarely get it back.
 
Wolfe said: Enthusia allows tank-slappers to swing out of control, too, something that FM4 seldom does. We both know EPR is somewhat forgiving compared to real life, but you can still end up backing into a spin at full-lock countersteer. In FM4, you can save damn near anything. The Shelby Cobra, for example, is an unflappable drift-master, always firmly under your control.

Boy, that's a BIG disagree from my end! You get any funny ideas, and the car bites and can often react violently depending on how much you've goofed. Are you sure you got your dead zones set right? And no assists?
No assists for this one -- just Manual without Clutch --and honestly dead zones are irrelevant, because I'm talking about something that occurs at full lock. Your car can "pull" itself out of most drifts with ease, whether you use Sim steering or not.

It's true that you can overcorrect and swing off into the grass, but it's the grass (or the wall) that gets you; in an open area like the Top Gear Test Track, that overcorrection simply becomes a new drift, just as easily controlled as ever. You can swing back and forth and drift up and down the runway as much as you please, and a car like the Shelby Cobra will hardly put up a fight. The problem can be most easily observed if you stop and perform a standing burnout in an FR (like the Cobra). If you whip the steering from side to side as you roll forward, your car will shake its booty like a wet dog. It never seems to build any momentum from the swings, it just tosses that force away into thin air. You'll keep snaking forward quickly and confidently. Another example: you can hold the handbrake and crabwalk down the track until you bleed away all of your speed. That's totally not right.

The reason I compare Enthusia Professional Racing favorably is because when you perform the same test, each swing of the rear end carries more and more momentum as you accelerate. After only a few swings like this, the rear end throws itself too far for countersteer to be able to compensate, and you skid to a halt. The same thing can happen in a normal drift at speed, or if you yank and hold the handbrake; the rear end can swing too far to be saved by any amount of countersteer, leading to either a spin in reverse or an out-of-control sideways skid.

You can't just race laps to figure out the physics of a game. You need to stop and goof around too. :)

With a control pad maybe, with 900 degree sim steering if the back end goes you rarely get it back.
If you can manage to steer as quickly as the joystick, you'll get the same results. Just because a certain control type doesn't allow you to probe the engine the same way, that doesn't mean the problems aren't there.
 
Ok, Simulation steering on the pad feels better to me than Normal steering, I did the ''deadzones'' thing Speedster said and he is right. If yout try simulation steering with the default settings on the pad it's gonna feel twitchy. With the deadzones off, this game is finally starting to feel better than GT5 physics wise, gamepad level at least.
 
Although I can't for the life of me see what you and Speedster911 see in Simulation steering with a gamepad, I'm glad you found a solution that seems to work for you. 👍
 
If you can manage to steer as quickly as the joystick, you'll get the same results. Just because a certain control type doesn't allow you to probe the engine the same way, that doesn't mean the problems aren't there.

I would say its physically impossible to steer as quickly as you can flick you thumb left or right, all I am saying is that every one saying forza is easy to control when they are using a pad is wrong, its like me saying its easy to be a sniper because I can do it on call of duty. Wheels are the closest thing to real life driving when it comes to sims. Of course it's going to be easy to catch a slide when you only have to move your finger to do so.
 
I would say its physically impossible to steer as quickly as you can flick you thumb left or right, all I am saying is that every one saying forza is easy to control when they are using a pad is wrong, its like me saying its easy to be a sniper because I can do it on call of duty. Wheels are the closest thing to real life driving when it comes to sims. Of course it's going to be easy to catch a slide when you only have to move your finger to do so.

It could be a little harder though, it's harder on GT5, still catchable if you know what you are doing but I always see people online asking for help to drift, even after 2 years but in Forza 4, not so much. Live for Speed for example is very popular among drifters because of good tire model and drift-friendly physics, even with a wheel.
 
I would say its physically impossible to steer as quickly as you can flick you thumb left or right, all I am saying is that every one saying forza is easy to control when they are using a pad is wrong, its like me saying its easy to be a sniper because I can do it on call of duty. Wheels are the closest thing to real life driving when it comes to sims. Of course it's going to be easy to catch a slide when you only have to move your finger to do so.
You misunderstand what I mean. I have no doubts FM4 can be rather difficult with a wheel, but that doesn't change the fact that it has physics issues that make it easier to hold and recover a drift than in the real world. These are bottom-level things. We all run the same physics engine.

I'm not calling for the next FM game to be "difficult," I'd just like it to be closer to reality. With improvements, it could very well feel easier to drive as it becomes more intuitive and natural...but it should also bite harder when you make a mistake. As mike mentioned, Live for Speed is a great example. A lot of people love drifting in that game, but compared to FM4 you're far more likely to find yourself spinning off backwards when you don't get it right.
 
Wolfe I would strongly recommend you try forza with a 900 degree wheel on sim steering and then I garuntee you won't be saying that. One of Turn 10 strengths has always been making forza highly playable with a pad, I'm not trolling pad players (I used to Be one myself) but forza is far easier on the pad than it is with a wheel. Especially using sim steering, I consider my self to be a decent driver on forza and I very rarely use sim steering because its so hard to catch the car once its gone. As for GT5 mike its exactly the same, I can catch slides all day with the pad, with the wheel however its far more difficult. But to me that's down to the fact that gt5s tire model is on or off with nothing in the middle and a lack of feel through the wheel.
 
Had some play time in gt5 with pad instead of my wheel (short gaming stint). Was doing the world compact event and something felt off. Game says it is an expert level race and then I noticed srf was forced on. Makes sense why it felt strange. The miata race is exactly the same, stated to be an expert level race yet srf is forced on.
I went back to other events in seasonals and its hit or miss. I know what to look after now and just neglect the text explaining the race. Any time srf is forced on should drop the words 'expert level' in my book. That srf to me changes the way a car performs too much.

I was planning to run the same or similar cars on the same tracks in both games but its a no go due to forced srf. Could go back to prior seasonals.

I did this once with same spec-ed chargers at laguna and the difference in physics and feel and track disparities is quite noticeable. Pad and wheel in both, no assists and felt like completely different cars
 
@hennessey86 -- I have a Logitech G25 with 2/3 of another G25 set still in the box, and I'm the most racing-sim-oriented guy I know. We'll be playing FM5/FH2 before that can happen.

Since I can't comment on it, let's assume for a moment that FM4 is just perfect with a wheel; why does that necessarily change the fact that the game has physics issues to be sorted out for gamepad users? It's not simply a control thing, because if it was, you would be able to replicate goofy FM4 maneuvers in a sophisticated sim like Live for Speed, least of all with the gamepad filters turned off and 1-to-1 axis control. But LFS can't do it.

Something is fishy with moment of inertia and angular momentum in FM4, and in my opinion, Simulation steering on a gamepad elucidates these fundamental problems. Normal steering makes FM4/Horizon feel more realistic to me, because the cars have more "weight" and you can't flip-flop-whip them around like a five-ounce dusting broom. If only they weren't so rock-steady on high speed corner entry...
 
@hennessey86 -- I have a Logitech G25 with 2/3 of another G25 set still in the box, and I'm the most racing-sim-oriented guy I know. We'll be playing FM5/FH2 before that can happen.

Since I can't comment on it, let's assume for a moment that FM4 is just perfect with a wheel; why does that necessarily change the fact that the game has physics issues to be sorted out for gamepad users? It's not simply a control thing, because if it was, you would be able to replicate goofy FM4 maneuvers in a sophisticated sim like Live for Speed, least of all with the gamepad filters turned off and 1-to-1 axis control. But LFS can't do it.

Something is fishy with moment of inertia and angular momentum in FM4, and in my opinion, Simulation steering on a gamepad elucidates these fundamental problems. Normal steering makes FM4/Horizon feel more realistic to me, because the cars have more "weight" and you can't flip-flop-whip them around like a five-ounce dusting broom. If only they weren't so rock-steady on high speed corner entry...

You miss understand me, I'm simply saying it isn't easy to control a spin with a wheel on 900 degree settings with sim steering. I'm not saying the physics are perfect :D
 
Agreed, the physics need further improvements, and I'm sure FM5 will bring the kind of changes we witnessed with the FM3 to FM4 transition.

Baby steps though... there is such a thing as overreaching and I think T10's going about their business in a really smart way! ;)

Personally speaking FM4 keeps me full for now, but now I am really hard pressed to borrow a wheel/pedal set up for a mate, and try it out for a few days at least. Doubt if that's happening, but no harm in asking! :D
 
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