Forza 4 vs GT5 physics

[saskman1950]

I find it interesting with all the misunderstanding..And we all speak English.
What would it be like if everyone spoke a different language? This thread would be 100 pages long..

 

[hennessey86]

I find it interesting with all the misunderstanding..And we all speak English.
What would it be like if everyone spoke a different language? This thread would be 100 pages long..

People do tend to interpret things differently though, its human nature.

 

[imported_RPM Bibblefish]

Can anyone answer a question for me about GT5's physics after update 2.10?

I haven't played GT5 for a while, played it for a few hours a couple of nights back offline then updated the game to 2.10 and as far as i can tell nothing has changed. The physics feel exactly the same as they did before the update and cars seem to handle the same.

I thought it must be me so i checked the notes released along with the update and there's nothing in there (as far as i can tell) about the physics being updated, yet i keep seeing posts in various threads about how much better the physics are post 2.10...........am i missing something here, what exactly have they done and if it's as big a change as some people make out why aren't PD shouting it from the roof tops?

 

[hennessey86]

They haven't changed in my opinion either, I think they have tweaked a few of the cars thought. But you no what gt fans are like ha

 

[mikecustom]

Can anyone answer a question for me about GT5's physics after update 2.10?

I haven't played GT5 for a while, played it for a few hours a couple of nights back offline then updated the game to 2.10 and as far as i can tell nothing has changed. The physics feel exactly the same as they did before the update and cars seem to handle the same.

I thought it must be me so i checked the notes released along with the update and there's nothing in there (as far as i can tell) about the physics being updated, yet i keep seeing posts in various threads about how much better the physics are post 2.10...........am i missing something here, what exactly have they done and if it's as big a change as some people make out why aren't PD shouting it from the roof tops?

The patch that did change the physics was 2.08 I believe, every new patch has felt a bit better since then, probably staying the same as a whole but improving on specific cars but 2.08 was definitely a step forward. The problem is that Gt fans over react, it's like they are so desperate for changes that their minds make them believe it. I did notice really, really subtle changes but so small that aren't really worth anouncing on the patch notes.


On another note and to all who discussed with me in the past about FM's physics and other topics such as graphics and sound, I've got to say I get it now, FM4 has finally won me over, it is definitely a much more polished product. ''Consistency'' describes FM4 perfectly, It's still not what I wanted it to be but it is making me feel that it was worth the money.

 

[HAL20XX]

I recently played GT5 again for the first time in over a year, and I think I understand why some people think it offers a better experience and feels more natural. It's the way the cars "wobble" and bounce and bite into the corners, much moreso than FM4. I could hardly make a successful lap because the physics are just so awful and I'm not used to them anymore. But it is more "lively" than FM4.

I'm a little late to the party, but THIS exactly! This is only my opinion, but in GT5 you feel more connected to the car. In FM4, the car feels more connected to the road. Combine the two and you've got a winner.

 

[Wolfe]

^ That's a good way to put it. Illustrates how people can be so adamant on either side.

 

[Speedster911]

Yeap, a marriage of GT5 and FM4 physics would have been perfect! Agreed!

 

[FormulaKimball]

I agree as well - I just made the switch to FM4 after 2+ years of solid daily GT5 play. At the moment I think FM4 is fantastic for all the usual reasons (particularly cars, sound, graphics, and even the physics). GT5 has great feeling of "bite" most of the time (depending on what you are driving) and with any Logitech wheel it was easy to feel what both ends of the car were doing and recover your balance, however the physics are definitely arcadey, oversimplified, and exaggerated in a lot of ways (500hp GT cars doing 6-minute laps of Nordschleife, LOL). FM4 doesn't let you get away with sloppy or ambitious corner approaches or mashing the throttle on exits as much as you can do in GT5. And FM4's downshifting, OMG OMG OMG so nice.

However, FM4 also does a few things that are pretty annoying, like many situations where in GT5 the rear would let go first, in FM4 it's almost always understeer. Mind you, I've changed my driving style to accommodate FM4, back to what I used in racing school with Formula 2000 cars. But it's strange - you brake, downshift, turn in letting some rev drop help you toward the apex, then the front just breaks loose and won't turn through the exit... so you try to add power and if you're lucky you snap into oversteer, which you can control if you're really concentrating. Or you just keep sliding off into the grass. Funny thing is, this lift-off-understeer happened a lot in GT4 too. I've never, ever experienced the same lift-off-understeer in any car in real life regardless of powertrain, and certainly if you lift off too long or too forcefully in a rear drive car it will always try to spin. Have to wonder if it's something games put in the physics to make it "safer" or "easier" for casual players.

I'm also suffering from the CSR wheel I'm using which has what I consider terrible feedback (especially around center or anytime the tires start sliding), which at first was easy to blame on FM4's physics. But I had a 911 GT3 wheel that I used in GT5 which had the same problem - too much time intellectualizing on what is happening in low traction situations and not enough feedback to allow me to feel and react quickly. Lots of times the CSR wheel's reactions or lack of feedback just make even small oscillations turn into unrecoverable tankslappers. And that sense of feeling where the neutral point is, just isn't there most of the time. Anyone else have the same impressions from the lower cost Fanatec wheels, and any advice on what wheels are better?

 

[hennessey86]

I'm also suffering from the CSR wheel I'm using which has what I consider terrible feedback (especially around center or anytime the tires start sliding), which at first was easy to blame on FM4's physics. But I had a 911 GT3 wheel that I used in GT5 which had the same problem - too much time intellectualizing on what is happening in low traction situations and not enough feedback to allow me to feel and react quickly. Lots of times the CSR wheel's reactions or lack of feedback just make even small oscillations turn into unrecoverable tankslappers. And that sense of feeling where the neutral point is, just isn't there most of the time. Anyone else have the same impressions from the lower cost Fanatec wheels, and any advice on what wheels are better?

Its the games not the wheel, I have a GT2 and both games have lacklustre force feed back. I have tried my wheel on a few PC sims and it was so much better, it seems console decs don't no how to program good force feed back with maybe code masters being the exception.

 

[VXR]

I now have both FM4 and GT5 and all I can say is that I'm really pleased I bought GT5 now after a physics change, because it and Forza don't differ too greatly in the fun stakes, whereas when I had a go on GT5 when it launched, it felt like the same old stale GT.

Some cars still don't want to push their tails out wide, though on GT5, without some serious bunging.

 

[Wolfe]

...many situations where in GT5 the rear would let go first, in FM4 it's almost always understeer. Mind you, I've changed my driving style to accommodate FM4, back to what I used in racing school with Formula 2000 cars. But it's strange - you brake, downshift, turn in letting some rev drop help you toward the apex, then the front just breaks loose and won't turn through the exit... so you try to add power and if you're lucky you snap into oversteer, which you can control if you're really concentrating. Or you just keep sliding off into the grass. Funny thing is, this lift-off-understeer happened a lot in GT4 too. I've never, ever experienced the same lift-off-understeer in any car in real life regardless of powertrain, and certainly if you lift off too long or too forcefully in a rear drive car it will always try to spin. Have to wonder if it's something games put in the physics to make it "safer" or "easier" for casual players.

I made a thread about exactly this back in 2011. It tagged along into Forza Horizon too (obviously). It's frustrating because I'll take a line into a corner that I know should work, but I end up pushing wide because I get no response from the rear end. It's just planted, unless you get ON the throttle. It's given me the bad habit of using the handbrake to compensate, just to get the turn-in I was expecting all along. Both FM4 and Horizon are fantastic games, but until T10/PG address this issue they'll never deliver a truly intuitive and natural driving experience. It's a bit difficult to feel relaxed or confident when I'm really pushing the limit, because I can't lean back on my ~10 years of simulator and driving experience. I have to drive "the Forza way."

I made a name for myself complaining about this and more in GT4, over on GTPlanet. Polyphony clearly worked on this particular problem with GT5, although the result seems awfully exaggerated and "canned." Maybe they've improved it with patches since I've played the game, but you'd get the same violent swinging in MR/MAWD/RR cars, no matter how you drive or what car it is.

 

[Speedster911]

I think the only kind of simulators that truly *nail it* are the industry grade ones, that are not held back by budgets or deadlines.

I'm sure FM5's bringing a nice bunch of overhauls to the table.

On top of that list should be suspension modelling.

Personally speaking, I'd rather they overhaul the entire physics model. While it IS the best on current consoles, it would be nice to see it approach the levels seen in commercial/industry grade sims, or PC sims for that matter. It's doable, and T10 should be bold enough to jump into the void.

 

[Wolfe]

I think Live for Speed "nails it," but it has no budget and no deadline either.

 

[FormulaKimball]

Wolfe & Speedster - yes, yes yes I'm trying to resist adding the handbrake to get cars to turn properly in FM4, basically just push brakes more to the rear and put the diff deceleration at 15 or so. The only car that responds how I would expect is the Bentley Speed 8, seems to have the most nervous rear end of the race cars I've tried. Which is sort of a good thing in FM4.

Definitely got weary of trying to dial out the reverse problem in GT5, that violent heave sideways as you come off the brakes to turn in... Seems like they overcompensated.

I'm still really enjoying FM4's interpretation of everything, the physics plus the nice hood cam perspective (and its consistency across different cars) really make the driving look and feel authentic. But it sounds like if I want everything to be "nailed" I'll just have to try some PC sims this year...

 

[Wolfe]

If you haven't before, FNG71, try out the free demo for Live for Speed. LFS with a 900-degree wheel, 3-pedal set, and 6-speed shifter is sublime. 👍 And yeah, that "violent heave" is what I got out of my experience with GT5, apart from the GT4-like understeery FR/FF Standard cars.

The RR cars in Horizon remain among my top favorites -- CTR/RGT8, 595 esseesse, Beetle -- because they won't hesitate to kick out on you. They manage to go above and beyond what I'd expect from an FR, but thanks to the countersteer "bug" I've mentioned before in FM4/FH, they're still a bit easy to drive compared to the real thing, I'm sure. I can't say I've had the opportunity to drive a VR6 turbo Bug capable of 200mph.

 

[VXR]

I honestly never find the cars to be too planted in Forza. If anything I prefer this series as the cars are more happy to turn in. Must be driving styles, surely.

 

[FormulaKimball]

I honestly never find the cars to be too planted in Forza. If anything I prefer this series as the cars are more happy to turn in. Must be driving styles, surely.

Might also be what cars, tuning settings and what wheel?

Speaking of which, I applied the firmware 756 update to my CSR and combined with cranking up the spring and damper settings (around 3 or 4 I think), I no longer have a dead around center feeling, actually it feels pretty much like the 911 GT3 wheel did in GT5. Thus, it is an improvement but the wheel is still notchy with reversing directions and doesn't communicate where the neutral point is when the car starts sliding, not very well anyway. My 911 GT3 wheel tended to have the same problem in GT5 (while any of my logitech wheels would let me feel enough so I could even countersteer with my left hand with right hand on the shifter, and not even have to think about it and hardly ever lose the car). I really wonder what FM4 would be like if only I could play it with a DFGT or G27.

 

[Wolfe]

I honestly never find the cars to be too planted in Forza. If anything I prefer this series as the cars are more happy to turn in. Must be driving styles, surely.

I suppose it depends on how much you like to "steer with the throttle." Forza is very competent at providing power-on oversteer, nothing wrong there. However, if you're the type to frequently utilize off-throttle weight shifting to angle your way into a corner, or initiate a drift, Forza just shrugs it off and serves up some understeer instead.

My driving style involves a lot of "lift & tuck" for corners that require little to no braking, particularly a string of corners. Forza just feels brutish and uncooperative in those situations.

...it is an improvement but the wheel is still notchy with reversing directions and doesn't communicate where the neutral point is when the car starts sliding, not very well anyway. My 911 GT3 wheel tended to have the same problem in GT5 (while any of my logitech wheels would let me feel enough so I could even countersteer with my left hand with right hand on the shifter, and not even have to think about it and hardly ever lose the car). I really wonder what FM4 would be like if only I could play it with a DFGT or G27.

Interesting. I've long suspected that FM4/Horizon with a wheel just isn't for me, because I'm terribly spoiled on FFB from playing Live for Speed with my G25. That combo is as natural and communicative as you've described. I enjoy FM4/Horizon perfectly well with a controller, so I was never going to drop the cash on an extra wheel anyway, but based on what you've said, my assumption is probably a safe one.

 

[YakieS1]

...and doesn't communicate where the neutral point is when the car starts sliding, not very well anyway.

This answers the main question that I had about how well the existing wheels replicate the driving and drifting experience. I figured that the power and bandwith required to really give good "neutral point feedback" during slides and the dropoff in centering force on understeer would be beyond the capability of anything that you can plug into your wall. Oh, well, maybe someday.

 

[Wolfe]

What do you mean? FFB implementation varies, and I doubt Forza is the #1 choice to get the most out of a Fanatec wheel. I've never used a 911 GT3 or RSR, but I can agree with FNG71 on Logitechs; in LFS you can countersteer with the palm of your hand. The cars practically drift themselves. I've also never been left wanting more in terms of that understeer dropoff.

I wouldn't write off all gaming wheels just because of Forza.

 

[FormulaKimball]

I wouldn't write off all gaming wheels just because of Forza.

Or even, write off Forza ... last night I finally had somewhat of a breakthrough with a combination of wheel settings and the right car and track. I'd heard it takes time to get used to it and get it dialed in right...

My CSR is now using firmware 756, but also these settings - sen 810, ff 80, sho 100, dri 5, lin 0, spr 2, dam 3. Simulation steering. As for the car, the Lexus Petronas GT500 SC430 (with slight tuning tweaks, mainly more front df and less diff decel), on the Nordschleife. And finally, I was able to get lap after lap of pushing the car to "my limit" and even getting a few clean laps

I was actually getting some sense of the wheel tugging to let me know the movement of the rear end, but also the car is just so civilized, it doesn't give you excessive understeer or oversteer, it actually goes where you want in the sense that I've usually felt in GT5. Except the hood camera and sound of that car are much better in FM4 than in GT5.

I do have a G27 coming so that I can continue my GT5 play now and then, or go toward the PC sims... but finally I feel like the CSR and FM4 gives quite a bit of the same enjoyment. Can't wait to try the GT500 NSX or GT-R....

 

[hennessey86]

Or even, write off Forza ... last night I finally had somewhat of a breakthrough with a combination of wheel settings and the right car and track. I'd heard it takes time to get used to it and get it dialed in right...

My CSR is now using firmware 756, but also these settings - sen 810, ff 80, sho 100, dri 5, lin 0, spr 2, dam 3. Simulation steering. As for the car, the Lexus Petronas GT500 SC430 (with slight tuning tweaks, mainly more front df and less diff decel), on the Nordschleife. And finally, I was able to get lap after lap of pushing the car to "my limit" and even getting a few clean laps

I was actually getting some sense of the wheel tugging to let me know the movement of the rear end, but also the car is just so civilized, it doesn't give you excessive understeer or oversteer, it actually goes where you want in the sense that I've usually felt in GT5. Except the hood camera and sound of that car are much better in FM4 than in GT5.

I do have a G27 coming so that I can continue my GT5 play now and then, or go toward the PC sims... but finally I feel like the CSR and FM4 gives quite a bit of the same enjoyment. Can't wait to try the GT500 NSX or GT-R....

Why would you get a G27 when you have a CSR?

 

[FormulaKimball]

Why would you get a G27 when you have a CSR?

I'm not entirely thrilled with my Fanatec wheels, and I think the CSR isn't compatible with PS3 anyway. I guess I'm also in a collecting mode, want to have a G27 before Logitech stops making them, got it for a price I couldn't pass up.

 

[hennessey86]

I'm not entirely thrilled with my Fanatec wheels, and I think the CSR isn't compatible with PS3 anyway. I guess I'm also in a collecting mode, want to have a G27 before Logitech stops making them, got it for a price I couldn't pass up.

The CSR is fully compatible with the PS3, I suppose its a good idea to pick one up now they have stopped making them.

 

[FormulaKimball]

The CSR is fully compatible with the PS3, I suppose its a good idea to pick one up now they have stopped making them.

Yep and the G27 arrived shockingly fast! I may have to dig the PS3 out of storage so I can test it out soon. My CSR instructions only described how to get it into xbox wireless mode, or PC mode, but not PS3 ... pretty sure I tried it on the PS3 but it wouldn't work. I don't have the elite, just the plain CSR.

Has anyone else noticed some cars seem to respond backwards to tuning changes? I was having a lot of trouble with the A4 touring car because everything I did with the diff made its balance problems worse, so then I tried reversing the settings and all the sudden the car was doing what I expected.

It's really weird to try out cars you've driven in both GT5 and FM4 and they feel a lot different between the two (e.g. the TT touring car is awesome in GT5, not so good in FM4 no matter how you tune it).

 

[hennessey86]

Yep and the G27 arrived shockingly fast! I may have to dig the PS3 out of storage so I can test it out soon. My CSR instructions only described how to get it into xbox wireless mode, or PC mode, but not PS3 ... pretty sure I tried it on the PS3 but it wouldn't work. I don't have the elite, just the plain CSR.

Has anyone else noticed some cars seem to respond backwards to tuning changes? I was having a lot of trouble with the A4 touring car because everything I did with the diff made its balance problems worse, so then I tried reversing the settings and all the sudden the car was doing what I expected.

It's really weird to try out cars you've driven in both GT5 and FM4 and they feel a lot different between the two (e.g. the TT touring car is awesome in GT5, not so good in FM4 no matter how you tune it).

I believe that's one of Forzas week points, to. Me race cars don't have enough grip at the rear. Some cars can be tuned to be better but they still are not quite right. I can assure you the standard CSR is fully compatible with the PS3, just look on fanatecs website for the instructions to get it into PS3 mode.

 

[Speedster911]

There has been much debate about Fantec's wheels not being the best choice for Forza 4.

For a fact, Fanatec also recommends setting steering to "normal".

 

[UKMikey]

What's the latest GT5 Spec - 2.11?

I gave it a try the other night and didn't mind it too much in comparison with previous upgrades. Not sure whether the grip levels have been changed but at least I can get the car around the track now LOL.

 

[FormulaKimball]

There has been much debate about Fantec's wheels not being the best choice for Forza 4.

For a fact, Fanatec also recommends setting steering to "normal".

Wow so I tried "normal" steering and it seems much better on the CSR wheel. I even experienced a moment of the FFB totally going away during a lap, but surprisingly it was fine driving the car that way (Zakspeed Viper around Sebring). It's like a lot of distracting incorrect info was suddenly removed and I could just drive it like I see it. I was actually faster LOL.

The G27 wheel is good, a little rubbery but I got my 'Ring time in the FGT in GT5 2.11 down. But it's nice to be back to Forza now and I can't wait for the actual 12 hours of Sebring this weekend!

EDIT: I've finally uncovered (for myself, others probably know already) the fixes for the two problematic elements of FM4 that I had - on the wheel, I turned spr to OFF to get rid of the notchy center feeling, now the wheel seems to tug the way it should to let me know how the rear is moving (though there is again very little resistance around center). Dri is OFF as well. Dpr on -4, with Sen 810, FF 80, Sho 60. As for the lack of turn-in, once I read the diff description it is indeed backwards from GT5 - to get the decel diff to help turn, you crank it UP (e.g. 95%, as I have it on the Viper or the Panoz LMP). I have to say, I hardly miss GT5 at all now ... once you get Forza dialed in, it's awesome.

I'm definitely getting that joy, that pure driving pleasure sensation, now that I feel like I can push cars like the Zakspeed Viper around the 'Ring and really start getting the most out of it... hitting apexes, the rear is just on the verge of sliding but easy to correct. And that engine, OMG. Bliss.