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what do you mean by "tweak" concerning braking?
Forza 4 vs GT5 physics
- Thread starter Nicholas9889
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You brake to the point of locking the breaks in the middle of a turn... nothing happens, the car just goes straight without the balance being upset. Maybe I should have said "twitch".
Which is really exaggerated on GT5, btw.
On second thoughts, let alone in the middle of a turn, not even while entering the corner, which really bothers me.
- 330
it depends how your brake balance is setup, and how much weight transfer you allow with your suspension. I just spun this morning in my league race because I locked up my rear slightly before the front, and it wasn't a total lock up either.
If the front locks up first and rear isn't unsettled by engine braking, weight transfer etc, you naturally just plough forward. for the front wheel locking up actually discourage rotation compare to not locking up since the front tire is less of an effect to the overall balance in a locked state. sometimes a light touch on the brake just as the rear weight start to shift gives you the most dramatic oversteer effect, most apparent in the 500 abarth.
the balance of the car before you step on the brakes matters too, if it's in a stable understeering state you are most likely continue to have more understeer, go try the rossion q1 if you want to experience what you expected.
If the front locks up first and rear isn't unsettled by engine braking, weight transfer etc, you naturally just plough forward. for the front wheel locking up actually discourage rotation compare to not locking up since the front tire is less of an effect to the overall balance in a locked state. sometimes a light touch on the brake just as the rear weight start to shift gives you the most dramatic oversteer effect, most apparent in the 500 abarth.
the balance of the car before you step on the brakes matters too, if it's in a stable understeering state you are most likely continue to have more understeer, go try the rossion q1 if you want to experience what you expected.
it depends how your brake balance is setup, and how much weight transfer you allow with your suspension. I just spun this morning in my league race because I locked up my rear slightly before the front, and it wasn't a total lock up either.
If the front locks up first and rear isn't unsettled by engine braking, weight transfer etc, you naturally just plough forward. for the front wheel locking up actually discourage rotation compare to not locking up since the front tire is less of an effect to the overall balance in a locked state.
the balance of the car before you step on the brakes matters too, if it's in a stable understeering state you are most likely continue to have more understeer, go try the rossion q1 if you want to experience what you expected.
Thanks JJ72, you just gave me one more reason to keep on playing more and more
- 2,218
- Manchester
- toyotsupra
- Jame3sBoy
Just got my game today i must say the autovista mode looks stunning on my big TV. The cars look so good very realistic. 
- 362
- London
- MadHax
- M8DH8X
I think to everyone that has voted should vote fairly as possible and not biased towards any game just give an honest opinion.
I have played both games with all aids off and FM4 feels better to me, also note the tyre's in both games. In FM4 the tyre's flex under presure and expand when they are heating up and even show where on the tyre is getting worn. GT5 does not have realistic tyres compared to FM4 there is no flex or expanding also after the recent update i'm not so sure racing soft tyre's should wear out so quickly. Also while driving because of the way the tyre's work in FM4 you can gradually feel the loss of grip, the physics of driving in both games are very good i just feel that FM4 is slightly ahead so Forza get's my vote.
I have played both games with all aids off and FM4 feels better to me, also note the tyre's in both games. In FM4 the tyre's flex under presure and expand when they are heating up and even show where on the tyre is getting worn. GT5 does not have realistic tyres compared to FM4 there is no flex or expanding also after the recent update i'm not so sure racing soft tyre's should wear out so quickly. Also while driving because of the way the tyre's work in FM4 you can gradually feel the loss of grip, the physics of driving in both games are very good i just feel that FM4 is slightly ahead so Forza get's my vote.
Crisp
Premium
- 1,636
- Pittsburgh, PA
- CrispWheels
Just got my game today i must say the autovista mode looks stunning on my big TV. The cars look so good very realistic.
For sure! I love the sounds and how much you can customize in forza but using a fanatec wheel to compare both game's "feel" I gotta say GT games have the feel down and forza is more or less on its way. They need to get the 900 degree steering rotation in there.
- 803
- Waco, TX
- GTP_Goshin2568
- Goshin2568
Coming from GT5 and PC sims, forza feels strange to me. I only have ~10 hours of driving time, so I wouldn't say I'm an expert on FM4 yet, but there are some really annoying things, and also some really good things. I love the FF of understeer. I've never felt that on a console game before. I also am a fan of the tire physics.
There are a few annoying things though. I HATE the grass that pulls you off the track. I can't tell you how many times I've taken a corner a bit too fast and go deep into the rumble strip, and get completely sucked off the track. I'm pretty much screwed at that point, because it is slowing you down all the time, and getting back on the track without spinning requires some serious concentration.
Second annoying thing is the oversteer. It just doesn't feel natural. In GT5, iRacing, simbin, etc. There is a pull in the wheel when the car starts to get twitchy, to the point that sometimes I could countersteer with my eyes closed (Logitech G27). In FM4, with my fanatec gt2, there isn't very much of that pull. I pretty much have to just watch on screen for the car to start moving. I mean, there is a little wheel feedback but not near as much as I like.
Third and most annoying thing is the sense of speed. It feels so unreal. In the 5 or so sims I've played, the first time I played them I could get in a drive reasonably well. Not really any crashes or anything. In Forza, it felt like my first 50 laps I understeered into a tree purely because looking at the screen it looked like I was doing maybe 30, and I looked at the speedo and I was doing like 55! At first I couldn't stand the game because I thought every car was just an understeering mess. I am starting to get used to it, but it feels so unrealistic that it's hard for it to be intuitive. I hope I get used to it enough soon, because it's making this game really annoying. I practically have to stare at the speedo at the entrance to every corner, and then my brain tells me to give it gas because it feels as if the car is crawling. Ridiculous.
All in all it's great though. I just need more time with it. Not bashing the game, it's more realistic physics-wise than gt5 I think.
There are a few annoying things though. I HATE the grass that pulls you off the track. I can't tell you how many times I've taken a corner a bit too fast and go deep into the rumble strip, and get completely sucked off the track. I'm pretty much screwed at that point, because it is slowing you down all the time, and getting back on the track without spinning requires some serious concentration.
Second annoying thing is the oversteer. It just doesn't feel natural. In GT5, iRacing, simbin, etc. There is a pull in the wheel when the car starts to get twitchy, to the point that sometimes I could countersteer with my eyes closed (Logitech G27). In FM4, with my fanatec gt2, there isn't very much of that pull. I pretty much have to just watch on screen for the car to start moving. I mean, there is a little wheel feedback but not near as much as I like.
Third and most annoying thing is the sense of speed. It feels so unreal. In the 5 or so sims I've played, the first time I played them I could get in a drive reasonably well. Not really any crashes or anything. In Forza, it felt like my first 50 laps I understeered into a tree purely because looking at the screen it looked like I was doing maybe 30, and I looked at the speedo and I was doing like 55! At first I couldn't stand the game because I thought every car was just an understeering mess. I am starting to get used to it, but it feels so unrealistic that it's hard for it to be intuitive. I hope I get used to it enough soon, because it's making this game really annoying. I practically have to stare at the speedo at the entrance to every corner, and then my brain tells me to give it gas because it feels as if the car is crawling. Ridiculous.
All in all it's great though. I just need more time with it. Not bashing the game, it's more realistic physics-wise than gt5 I think.
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- Kaaosherra
GT5 is still the better drive. It's a more playable game. But I think that's exactly because the physics are a bit unrealistic. Playability trumps realism in GT5.
I have a feeling that Forza has a more realistic physics model. Sadly, this leads to worse playability. Forza 4 is still a big improvement over Forza 3, though.
I have a feeling that Forza has a more realistic physics model. Sadly, this leads to worse playability. Forza 4 is still a big improvement over Forza 3, though.
- 298
Forza probably has the best tire/friction physics around, but the general mechanical physics (suspension, objects moving around in general) seem fakey, glitchy, and unnatural, which brings the whole experience down a bit. For an example of great, visceral suspension physics, try Shift 2 (which is also an example of abysmal tire physics, unfortunately)
Scaff
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- ScaffUK
What view do you use? As I find that FM4's sense of speed is pretty good in cockpit view, certainly better that GT5 which always seems too slow to me. However both titles could learn a lot from S2U's helmet cam in that regard.
Not quite sure what you are looking for in a sim title if better physics = worse playability?
Don't agree at all that the suspension physics are poor, while they still need a good degree of work (and amazingly Enthusia is still better in a few areas for this) they are far from as poorly modelled as you are implying.
Try taking any car in FM4 and setting the front spring and damper rates as low as they can go (both bound and rebound on the dampers) and take it for a drive. Notice that they have actually modelled the spring rate becoming stupidly high as the bump stops are hit. The car starts with a good degree of grip from the soft front end and then rapidly turns into an understeering nightmare.
As for how the suspension and body movements react with each other:
Not perfect, but "fakey, glitchy, and unnatural"? Nope can't agree.
Scaff
- 55
I think one of the comment's of the author of the video on youtube, explains why this is happening:
Someone has asked the author of the video (on the youtube comments):
"Why are the skidmarks already on the track???"
And his reply:
"before you make a video*, I spent the car back and forth. In fm4 tracks are never in the past tense"
*(Probably he wanted to say "before I made the video" here)
- 8
For me, it's all down to the way the cars handle at high speeds. I don't have a wheel for my 360 so my preference is restricted to the conditions that the game is played with a controller. Because the DS3's analog sticks have a smaller deadzone, it should theoretically promote more precise steering at higher speeds, but I felt just the opposite. The cars don't lurch left or right realistically when I just flick it in the desired direction. However, I felt in FM4 that the cars actually respond to precise movements at high speed realistically. Just my point of view though, feel free to disagree.
- 803
- Waco, TX
- GTP_Goshin2568
- Goshin2568
- 8
At least it's an improvement over FM3's cockpit view.
- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
60/70 Mph isn't really all that fast IMHO.
Next time your on a motorway/freeway, take a look at the sign posts coming towards you. Hardly eye stretching. A bit pedestrian really.
Do the same speed in a country lane and it seems as if you are going faster. It's the scope of your peripheral vision. Objects nearer to you tend to blur as you go past.
Look at a bridge on the horizon and you wouldn't think you were moving.
Next time your on a motorway/freeway, take a look at the sign posts coming towards you. Hardly eye stretching. A bit pedestrian really.
Do the same speed in a country lane and it seems as if you are going faster. It's the scope of your peripheral vision. Objects nearer to you tend to blur as you go past.
Look at a bridge on the horizon and you wouldn't think you were moving.
- 298
Forza suspension physics just feel too "easy." Cars in Forza do not get unsettled over bumps as easily as they would in real life. They absorb bumps too effectively and there's never any bounce when landing a jump or hitting a large bump like you'd find in a real car. There's almost no reaction force transferred from the suspension to the car. Any street car in real life with stock suspension will bounce in the air a little bit after landing a jump like that. Not in Forza.
You can see the glitchiness of the physics when you set extreme suspension values and the vehicle starts doing ridiculous bounces and wheelies that look unnatural and seem to violate the laws of physics. I'm pretty sure Forza physics take the "sliding brick" approach rather than actually simulating a car being held up by 4 wheels, and it shows. I'm not saying the suspension physics are poor, but a lot of sims do a way better job.
Scaff
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- ScaffUK
I quite agree with this, neither GT5 nor FM4 get this 100% right. The main point of the video is to counter the nonsense that GM4 suspension is doing nothing and has no effect on the car body itself rather than to state its 100% right.
Annoyingly both RBR and Enthusia back on the PS2 does a better job in that regard than either GT5 or FM4.
Given that we are talking about FM4 and GT5 here, from my won testing I would have to say that at the extreme end of thing FM4 does a lot better job of this. As an example FM4 does at the very least simulate a very soft front suspension going stiff once the bump stops are hit. Its not perfect but it was a nice find, as is its modelling of under damped suspension being unable to control spring oscillation.
- 298
Yeah, it's strange that GT5 and Forza have such issues with suspension/general mechanical physics considering how fundamentally simple they really are. It's high school physics honestly. I think the problem might be that their approach is to put tons of band-aids on a base physics model that's fundamentally incorrect or oversimplified, rather than to simulate it correctly from the ground up. You can stick 4 wheels with some springs on a box in Garry's Mod and get incredibly realistic suspension physics.
Scaff
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Part of the problem I believe is the sheer volume of vehicles they are modelling, as to get each one right in terms of suspension travel they would need to detail the suspension type used, the hard-point locations, etc.
It would stack up given that the newer cars in GT5 and FM4 seem to be a bit better than the older ones in this area and both are bringing over a significant amount of resource from part titles. The two I mentioned that did it well were both built from the ground up and had a much smaller car count.
Certainly in terms of 'more' correct suspension travel FM4 just gets the nod here as I have seen what does appear to be more details geometry changes under load and absence of load on the suspension, including droop when cars are airborne. Its not as good as it should be and both have issues, FM4 does disconnect the car from the suspension to a degree (but I don't agree with those who say that no connection exists). GT5 suffers from the same thing and it also seems to over-damp every car.
Scaff
- 298
Yeah, that's true. Still, it's possible to abstract most of the geometry (as they sort of do already) and have a more correct physics base. Suspension geometry doesn't have that much of an effect on the general suspension physics being correct or not. I'm guessing when they started with Forza 1 they had a very simplistic, fudged physics model that could run well on the Xbox but wasn't particularly accurate or realistic. They've been building on that ever since, rather than starting over.
- 1,732
- cuco33
I disagree with your first paragraph. I did a 'like for like' comparison some time ago with the same FR American car; spec wise I adjusted the GT5 one to be the same exact power, weight and weight distribution as the real car which was what FM4 was (09 spec), and ran a lot of laps on Laguna Seca. The car was the Challenger SRT8, and I ran on default tires the game gives you and then redid the entire test with the most grip tires so racing softs in GT5 and race slicks in FM4. The biggest difference in feel and weight shift for me was the main straight with the slight bend 'turn 1' (I don't really call this a turn though) right after the starting walkway bridge.. in GT5 I could hammer right through no problem. No weight shift issue, no balance issue due to dips, nothing. Just full throttle and a slight tweak to the steering angle and time and time again I was able to go through no problems, on both default and RS tire compounds. In FM4, on both tire compounds, there's a dip that will completely throw the car off balance if you're driving full throttle with minor steering adjustment for the 'turn'. In FM4 it is so obviously there that I needed to let off the throttle a bit and steer the car slightly before heavy braking. This wasn't the only turn on this track though but it was the most obvious one. What I also thought was strange was that FM4 was harder to drive and felt more realistic on racing slicks than GT5 did on default tires (don't remember but sports hards or comfort softs?) and my lap times were not really comparable as they were 4+ seconds apart in each 'like for like' comparison. Maybe Laguna Seca isn't modeled the best in GT5?
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- 5,767
- USA
- TPC_Raccooon23
- CRaccoon23
While I'm not quite ready to decide which game has better physics, I will say one thing. After trying Forza 4 with my new CSR today, I can't take the notion that Forza is arcade seriously at all.
One of the first cars I tried was the BMW 2002 Turbo and I did the spec event for it. I was quite surprised at how much a low RWD car could throw at me when I drove it hard in a race. Whenever I wasn't careful enough and pushed the car past its limits, and as a result, the car started to bite back and I found myself struggling to keep control of its oversteer. My first race with this car and my wheel was definitely a challenge and I didn't feel my experience was "arcadey" at all.
One of the first cars I tried was the BMW 2002 Turbo and I did the spec event for it. I was quite surprised at how much a low RWD car could throw at me when I drove it hard in a race. Whenever I wasn't careful enough and pushed the car past its limits, and as a result, the car started to bite back and I found myself struggling to keep control of its oversteer. My first race with this car and my wheel was definitely a challenge and I didn't feel my experience was "arcadey" at all.
- 323
- Finland
I cannot give fair opinion yet about controls since I can drive GT5 with 900 degrees wheel, but unfortunately it won't work with XBox.
GT5 is great fun with sport tyres and wheel.
I have briefly played GT5 with PS3's gamepad but there xbox gamepad with Forza 4 beats GT5 5-3.
GT5 is great fun with sport tyres and wheel.
I have briefly played GT5 with PS3's gamepad but there xbox gamepad with Forza 4 beats GT5 5-3.
I've played GT5 since it's release, and enjoyed the game - I rocked a DFGT 100% of that time, but noticed when I moved up to the CSR-E and pedals, it didn't seem that huge of an upgrade.
In Forza 4 however, it's been amazing (just picked up an Xbox 360 250GB and Kinect bundle over the weekend and Forza 4) - The tire modeling alone makes all the difference in the world as far as realism, and as much as I enjoyed playing GT5, I can't see playing it again - Forza 4 is just that much better. You get a corner wrong in GT5, you can trail brake a bit and get the car to get back to the apex if you know what you're doing without losing to much - Forza 4, you get it wrong, you are losing time, and lots of it - just as it should be. You can feel specifically when the front is about to let go (or has), feel the tires deform when you load the front up under braking - FM4 is harder for me to nail that perfect lap, because there is just so much you can get wrong - which means there is so much to get right as well - makes it more satisfying to me. In GT5, I'd get so tired of even 450 PP rooms running around like slot cars on the silly race softs - you couldn't slide the car unless you really tried, just made it a competition of who could brake latest, and nail lines - there is much more to FM4 when it comes to being fast, and I appreciate the hell out of that.
Honestly, from a realism standpoint, at least with the CSR-E, GT5 isn't better on any aspect - tuning, tires, handling, ffb, vehicle sound, etc... and with Forza putting out actual REGULAR updates and car/track packs (something Polygon Digital seems to have no real interest in), the gap continues to widen. I say this as someone who has played GT5 extensively and considered myself quite fast online - jumping to FM4 I was impressed on the very first lap after turning off all the assists and driving to simulation (still race with the driving line as I don't know many of the tracks yet at all), and I keep being impressed every time I go out.
YMMV depending on the wheel you use (have not tried the T500RS on GT5), but with the CSR-E, there isn't even a contest, FM4 is better by miles.
In Forza 4 however, it's been amazing (just picked up an Xbox 360 250GB and Kinect bundle over the weekend and Forza 4) - The tire modeling alone makes all the difference in the world as far as realism, and as much as I enjoyed playing GT5, I can't see playing it again - Forza 4 is just that much better. You get a corner wrong in GT5, you can trail brake a bit and get the car to get back to the apex if you know what you're doing without losing to much - Forza 4, you get it wrong, you are losing time, and lots of it - just as it should be. You can feel specifically when the front is about to let go (or has), feel the tires deform when you load the front up under braking - FM4 is harder for me to nail that perfect lap, because there is just so much you can get wrong - which means there is so much to get right as well - makes it more satisfying to me. In GT5, I'd get so tired of even 450 PP rooms running around like slot cars on the silly race softs - you couldn't slide the car unless you really tried, just made it a competition of who could brake latest, and nail lines - there is much more to FM4 when it comes to being fast, and I appreciate the hell out of that.
Honestly, from a realism standpoint, at least with the CSR-E, GT5 isn't better on any aspect - tuning, tires, handling, ffb, vehicle sound, etc... and with Forza putting out actual REGULAR updates and car/track packs (something Polygon Digital seems to have no real interest in), the gap continues to widen. I say this as someone who has played GT5 extensively and considered myself quite fast online - jumping to FM4 I was impressed on the very first lap after turning off all the assists and driving to simulation (still race with the driving line as I don't know many of the tracks yet at all), and I keep being impressed every time I go out.
YMMV depending on the wheel you use (have not tried the T500RS on GT5), but with the CSR-E, there isn't even a contest, FM4 is better by miles.
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