Forza 5 Is A Major Dissapointment, Will DLC Save It?

[chromatic9]

The words of critics should always be welcome. If people don't like what's going on here, they should say so. Maybe it will prevent it from happening again.

I'm ready to vote down any attempt at Autovista from ever showing up again because it's a waste of resources as far as I'm concerned, even if I understand why they'd put it in the game.

I wouldn't really compare GT HD or GT5P to FM5 though. The first was very clearly a demo and was even free. 5P was never meant to be a full game, and even full GT5, while it took a while doesn't seem to by a "typical" case.

Sure. I'm not against complaining or people being critical.

You have to understand there's a line where your complaints can't be addressed, the expectations can't be met. T10 nor PD can't magic out a game fully featured or close to that at launch. T10 already have hundreds working on the game. The GT examples highlight how content is slow to turn around. T10 has shown they produce more and FM5 has quite a lot.

As McLaren said, Autovista has made T10 update their models to higher detail. We could even say that if T10 didn't bother with it in FM4 they might even be behind for the FM5 and could have less content up to scratch. I like autovista and detailed car models. It will help each successive game and keep T10 up there as one of the best.

Ultimately FM5 compares well to other games and for a laucnh title its impressive. It was never going to compare to FM4. I doubt FM6 has been delayed that much. T10 will continue to update all the tracks and cars much quicker than anyone else has shown so far. FM5 missing a lot of function shows the time spent on it wasn't that great and they put out most of what they had. PD did the same with GT5P. Some people thought GT5P was poor value, that PD had much more but if you followed GT5P and GT5 you'll know that sadly PD weren't lying and really couldv'e done with T10s output from day one.

I think the emphasis on paying to unlock cars or a grindfest is more valid. It's old school game design that people don't like with tacked on pay unlock. People without time to grind shouldn't have very expensive unlocks as the only option. Allowing people short on time to access the cars would be simple to allow.

 

[Imari]

The lack of cars and tracks does bother me, but it can be overlooked due to the AI being a lot more fun and realistic and the graphics being a lot better. The only reason I have for not getting Forza 5 and for having an opinion of it being a much worse game than GT6 is the following fact:

- To play GT6: I already have a PS3 and racing rig with a Fanatec GT3 RS V2 wheel and Clubsport pedals, all I have to do is buy the GT6 game.

- To play Forza 5: I have to buy a Xbone, a Thrustmaster Ferrari wheel and pedals that are inferior to my current Fanatec wheel, Forza 5 game and still buy 12 month Xbox Live on top of that!

Hummm let me think: option one will cost me in Australian Dollars about $120 (for GT6 Anniversary edition) and option two will cost me $599 (for Xbone), $89.95 for Forza 5, $89 for Xbox live 12 month membership and about $450 for the Thrustmaster Ferrari wheel! That's a massive total of around $1227.95!!!!

Are you taking the price of your PS3 and current wheel into account in your evaluation of these prices?

PS3: $178(12gb) / $338(500gb)
GT6: $120
GT3 RS: $250
Clubsports: $330
Total: $878(12gb) / $1038(500gb)

Would you pay $878 to play GT6? I doubt it, and I doubt many people would just to play one game.

No game is ever worth the price of the console it's on by itself. Likewise wheel hardware isn't worth it just for one game, unless it's something silly cheap like a DFGT, or you have Scrooge McDuck money.

The games are the same price. Whether a new console and/or wheel is worth it is an entirely different kettle of fish, but there's a whole different set of value that comes into play then. Otherwise we'd all be buying $10 Gamecubes.

The price to play FM5 is not $1227.95. It's about $80, depending on where you buy it from, more or less the same as what GT6 will cost.

 

[eran0004]

That's not how it works.
The ultimate flaw in your reasoning is that you don't really know what you're talking about. Halving the price doesn't assure maximum profits.
The reason they can charge what they are charging is because they have data showing this many people are willing to spend this much money delivering this much profit.

Sending the token prices up the ceiling certainly doesn't assure maximum profit, which is my point. Unless you want to argue that the current price is at the point of unit elasticity, which I doubt because the public reactions has not been of the kind "what a great deal this is".



Data that we know they have is from FM4, and shows how it was too easy to buy the cars with tokens, which devalued the efforts taken to buy the cars with credits.

Increasing token price as a way of balancing the two different ways of obtaining cars sounds a lot more plausible than increasing token price because of sheer greed.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

Well for me it is a major disappointment in that I can't use my Fanatec wheels, they removed 3 of my favorite tracks and I'm not happy about that whole Kinect thing nor the price of the XB1, add to that the fact that only one person on my friends list even owns an XB1 makes my decision not to buy one very easy.

I enjoyed Forza 2-4, I still believe 2 was the best of the bunch but all had their upside and gave me many hours of entertainment.

I also do not like the thought that over the next year they will likely be releasing several cars and tracks that were already in previous versions but will be in the form of paid DLC.

The Autovista thing is useless, in FM4 I spent most of my time in auto vista trying to find a way out of it and only entered it by accident. Game would have been better without it, total waste of resources.

 

[20B_4ME]

Are you taking the price of your PS3 and current wheel into account in your evaluation of these prices?

PS3: $178(12gb) / $338(500gb)
GT6: $120
GT3 RS: $250
Clubsports: $330
Total: $878(12gb) / $1038(500gb)

Would you pay $878 to play GT6? I doubt it, and I doubt many people would just to play one game.

No game is ever worth the price of the console it's on by itself. Likewise wheel hardware isn't worth it just for one game, unless it's something silly cheap like a DFGT, or you have Scrooge McDuck money.

The games are the same price. Whether a new console and/or wheel is worth it is an entirely different kettle of fish, but there's a whole different set of value that comes into play then. Otherwise we'd all be buying $10 Gamecubes.

The price to play FM5 is not $1227.95. It's about $80, depending on where you buy it from, more or less the same as what GT6 will cost.

My calculations were based on the fact that I had already a PS3 and an Xbox 360. I was saving up to buy an Xbox 360 compatible Fanatec wheel but then heard Forza 5 was coming out on the Xbone and the 360 wheels weren't going to be compatible with the Xbone. So to me, buying a new Xbone+wheel+Forza 5 was going to be a much dearer way to go, even if I traded the 360 in for the Xbone, but that means I would only get $60 for the console and Forza 4... So I swapped the 360 and Forza 4 for a nitro 1/8th R/C truggy and decided that keeping the PS3 and getting GT6 is the better way to go

 

[Tornado]

Thanks.

So Dapper-like it's kind of scary.

Sending the token prices up the ceiling certainly doesn't assure maximum profit, which is my point. Unless you want to argue that the current price is at the point of unit elasticity, which I doubt because the public reactions has not been of the kind "what a great deal this is".

Of course, you're still ignoring the fact that the DLC being almost double the price and some of it being Day One haven't exactly fueled the good PR train particularly well. And while I know you have difficulty understanding the difference between new content and microtransactions, by your logic they still must not want as many profits as FM4 to have raised the prices so dramatically for the new content. Unless... *gasp* The same company who designed the Xbone as it originally was, killed wheel compatibility to sell new wheels, and created a virtual black market on hard drives when they sold flashed laptop drives for 3 times the regular retail price doesn't always make the big picture decisions when it comes to chasing profit.

Data that we know they have is from FM4, and shows how it was too easy to buy the cars with tokens, which devalued the efforts taken to buy the cars with credits

Nope. That'd be your assumption of what the data that you know they have but haven't actually seen says.

 

[I'm Motarded]

Surely the paltry car list in NFS is the bare minimum?

Rivals has under 30 cars doesn't it?
I remember the days when games had three cars and they were still fun.

 

[The Stig Farmer]

Wait, you can put an LS into an MX5?

 

[Brend]

Are people seriously comparing Rivals? An arcade racing game to a simulation game?

That's kind of daft. Arcade racing game may have different intricate handing models but the truth is that you don't play the game for the cars. But with Forza, the main selling point for me is how each of the cars handle different and great. Which is why 30 cars in NFS Rivals won't affect it, but 200 in Forza 5 affects Forza.

I'd like to know if even one person has said the sentence: "I buy NFS because of the way the cars handle so realistically."

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

I don't have F5 and wont have it until sometime in Spring 2014 when I get the X1. However I do have a list of disappointments so far that prevented me from buying the X1 and F5 at launch.

1. No weather
2. No day night cycle no night racing at all
3. Only 200 cars from a list of almost 700 cars in F4.
4. Only 14 tracks.

Usually I follow up negative feedback with positive feedback but unfortunately there is much positive about F5 imo at this point. Well besides Bathurst and Yas Marina. I love those tracks. They took a massive step backward trying to meet a deadline for the X1 launch and put WAY too much focus on graphics. Its the same mistake PD made which shocks me T10 would follow the same mistake. The 200 cars in F5 truly reminds me of PD only having 200 premium cars in GT5.

I am hoping T10 will start pumping out a lot of free cars and free tracks to get back on track toward the content in F4. Maybe in 6 months or so when I pick up the X1, F5 will be a much better game. But as of right now it is indeed a massive disappoint especially as a huge fan of the Forza series.

As for the microtransactions, I hate them and never contribute to microtransactions in any game. Also before you bash F5, keep in mind many other games have this including GT6. EA games have been doing this for MANY years.

 

[PzR Slim]

I don't have F5 and wont have it until sometime in Spring 2014 when I get the X1. However I do have a list of disappointments so far that prevented me from buying the X1 and F5 at launch.

1. No weather
2. No day night cycle no night racing at all
3. Only 200 cars from a list of almost 700 cars in F4.
4. Only 14 tracks.

Usually I follow up negative feedback with positive feedback but unfortunately there is much positive about F5 imo at this point. They took a massive step backward trying to meet a deadline for the X1 launch and put WAY too much focus on graphics. Its the same mistake PD made which shocks me T10 would follow the same mistake.

I am hoping T10 will start pumping out a lot of free cars and free tracks to get back on track toward the content in F4. Maybe in 6 months or so when I pick up the X1, F5 will be a much better game. But as of right now it is indeed a massive disappoint especially as a huge fan of the Forza series.

As for the microtransactions, I hate them and never contribute to microtransactions in any game. Also before you bash F5, keep in mind many other games have this including GT6. EA games have been doing this for MANY years.

You might change your mind when you play it

 

[eran0004]

Of course, you're still ignoring the fact that the DLC being almost double the price and some of it being Day One haven't exactly fueled the good PR train particularly well.

The price of the DLC is irrelevant and so is the PR train. A bunch of angry gamers is not an indicator of greed on the behalf of the publisher or the studio.

And while I know you have difficulty understanding the difference between new content and microtransactions,

by your logic they still must not want as many profits as FM4 to have raised the prices so dramatically for the new content.

FM5 cars are a lot more detailed than FM4 cars. More work put on making the cars = higher price.

Unless... *gasp* The same company who designed the Xbone as it originally was, killed wheel compatibility to sell new wheels, and created a virtual black market on hard drives when they sold flashed laptop drives for 3 times the regular retail price doesn't always make the big picture decisions when it comes to chasing profit.

Guilt by association, is that the best argument you can come up with?

Nope. That'd be your assumption of what the data that you know they have but haven't actually seen says.

I haven't seen it, but I've read what they say it says.
But of course, all businesses are evil organizations and you can't trust a single word they say

 

[VXR]

It seems a lot of the complaints have come from people who either haven't tried it or only for a quick moment. Ignoring the bare numbers, the way the cars drive is on another level to 4 and to bemoan the car count when it spans from the Kia Cee'd to the P1 with all sorts in between seems silly to me. Sure, if you can't justify the cost, but if it's just because you think the numbers are stingy, then you are doing yourself a disservice by missing out on a deep, fun handling model. That's the absolute important factor to start with, surely?

NFS gives you a rubbish arcade approach and 40 high end supercars that show no imagination whatsoever and costs the same as Forza. That's the rip off here.

 

[Speedster911]

Well, I didn't go through everybody's feedback. But judging from the first few, it looks like they're off to a not so stellar start. It's going to sell no doubt, but it can only keep folks interested for so long.

Maybe a GT game on the PS4 isn't such a bad alternative, provided Kaz comes to his senses, and gives the community everything they want, unlike Dan.

 

[Brend]

NFS gives you a rubbish arcade approach and 40 high end supercars that show no imagination whatsoever and costs the same as Forza. That's the rip off here.

A rubbish arcade approach? Since when do people who like sims have to look down on arcade games? There's plenty of arcade racers who are on the same level on excitement and fun as Simulators, not everything has to be over-technical. There's no rip-off involved either because you don't expect arcade racers to have 400 cars, why would they if they all use the same handling with small tweaks to increase competitive gameplay, the clue is in the name 'Arcade'.

 

[VXR]

I look down on NFS after they followed up the best arcade racer Hot Pursuit with the God awful The Run and the bland driving in Most Wanted. I don't hate arcade racers that embrace that choice, it's when they try to add more SIM leanings to an arcade handling model and then it's not intuitive as it's neither fish nor fowl.

 

[HAL20XX]

It seems a lot of the complaints have come from people who either haven't tried it or only for a quick moment. Ignoring the bare numbers, the way the cars drive is on another level to 4 and to bemoan the car count when it spans from the Kia Cee'd to the P1 with all sorts in between seems silly to me. Sure, if you can't justify the cost, but if it's just because you think the numbers are stingy, then you are doing yourself a disservice by missing out on a deep, fun handling model. That's the absolute important factor to start with, surely?

This exactly. Cost of entry concerns I get, but since when did the sim crowd become more concerned with quantity over physics? FM5 absolutely excels when it comes to physics yet it's being completely ignored by all the naysayers.

 

[TRC GeorgiaDawg]

Whatever it is I'm sure it can't make any less sense than trying to earn more by selling less.
One possible reason is that they might want the more exclusive cars to feel expensive. The price adds to the feeling of driving them.

You don't get it. They have already gotten their sales of the game. That money is in their pocket. They are pricing the cars the way they are because they know they can squeeze more.....

Different game but sadly it could be confused for same developer, but on Tiger Woods 14 where you had 70 dollars of day one DLC and a boost pin system that required their use to be competitive. AFter dropping more than the cost of the game on DLC just so you could actually play the game when they made sure they set most of the daily tournaments as DLC courses. For the pins, sure you could have grinded away for months on end and maybe gotten them. Or you could do as many did.....which is drop HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS into the token machine so they could have their boost pins and have a shot in the tournaments.

EA and now evidently Turn 10 aren't making games to be making the best game possible. They are only interested in providing a platform that will drive DLC and microtransaction sales. Which would be fine if it were F2P app for the phone. But it' not, it's a AAA title at a premium price on a 500 dollar console.

 

[PzR Slim]

This exactly. Cost of entry concerns I get, but since when did the sim crowd become more concerned with quantity over physics? FM5 absolutely excels when it comes to physics yet it's being completely ignored by all the naysayers.

As has the AI. For me the huge improvement in AI and physics more than makes up for lack of content. Give me a choice, of FM4 content in FM5 but with FM4 physics and AI and I'd say, 'no thanks'.

 

[TRC GeorgiaDawg]

This exactly. Cost of entry concerns I get, but since when did the sim crowd become more concerned with quantity over physics? FM5 absolutely excels when it comes to physics yet it's being completely ignored by all the naysayers.

I read people talking up the physics. But my long time friends, those that I trust are pretty much saying they're Forza physics...meaning they haven't changed that much and aren't that much better. And even if they're great. Just physics alone do not make a great racing game.

 

[PzR Slim]

I read people talking up the physics. But my long time friends, those that I trust are pretty much saying they're Forza physics...meaning they haven't changed that much and aren't that much better. And even if they're great. Just physics alone do not make a great racing game.

I've played every forza game to death, set No. 1's and I've played every PC sim in the past 15 years. And the physics in FM5 are a significantly better than those in FM4 or any console game I have played and approach a lot of PC dedicated sims I have played.

 

[Brend]

I look down on NFS after they followed up the best arcade racer Hot Pursuit with the God awful The Run and the bland driving in Most Wanted. I don't hate arcade racers that embrace that choice, it's when they try to add more SIM leanings to an arcade handling model and then it's not intuitive as it's neither fish nor fowl.

Guess it's personal opinion. Hot Pursuit was the worst arcade game outside of Undercover I played this generation.

And eh, rivals has power ups like Emps not exactly realistic.

 

[TRC GeorgiaDawg]

I've played every forza game to death, set No. 1's and I've played every PC sim in the past 15 years. And the physics in FM5 are a significantly better than those in FM4 or any console game I have played and approach a lot of PC dedicated sims I have played.

Yes, I recognize your gamertag. And that seems to be the divide. Some people think they're some amazing new physics, others are saying it's just the same old Forza physics that might be a little better. T10 has always had pretty good physics. But physics without a proper racing game built around it are useless. I was over at a couple of the league racing sites the other day which is where all the real hardcore "sim" racers hang out and they're basically saying they're going to have to continue on with FM4 as the game they use for their leagues. That to me tells me it's useless as a sim racer. As a rivals only hotlapper it might be sort of fun, but beyond that there's just not much there.

Edit - If physics alone could sustain a racing game then everyone would still be playing Race Pro.

 

[eran0004]

You don't get it. They have already gotten their sales of the game. That money is in their pocket. They are pricing the cars the way they are because they know they can squeeze more.....

No, YOU don't get it! I'm not talking about the sales of the game, I'm talking about the sales of the tokens. The issue we're discussing here is wether or not the increase in token price required to buy a car is because of greed or because of balancing the two different ways of obtaining cars.

If they wanted to squeeze as much money as possible from the customers, it wouldn't make sense to make the cars more expensive to buy, as that would kill off more demand than what the higher price can compensate for. This move is not motivated by greed, it's motivated by game design matters.

Different game

And thus irrelevant.

EA and now evidently Turn 10 aren't making games to be making the best game possible. They are only interested in providing a platform that will drive DLC and microtransaction sales. Which would be fine if it were F2P app for the phone. But it' not, it's a AAA title at a premium price on a 500 dollar console.

Let's assume you're right about that. How does that make raising token costs through the ceiling a profitable deal for Turn 10?

Exactly, it doesn't.
The only thing it manages to do is making the purchase of tokens less attractive, and as a result more people will earn credits through playing the game instead.

 

[Joey D]

I get that people don't like the token system, but it's not like you have to use them to progress through the game. Also I'm not sure how people are having a hard time getting credits. I've only been able to play maybe an hour a day and I'm almost at 500,000 without too much trouble.

 

[I'm Motarded]

Edit - If physics alone could sustain a racing game then everyone would still be playing Race Pro.

Except all the physics in that game apart from tyres and suspension is garbage.

That's not the reason why I have an issue with this. They purposely screwed up FM5's game design so they can pressure people into buying tokens for cars.

FM3 was equally screwed up if all you did was race offline.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

My brother has the game and I was talking with him over the weekend. He is reduced to using a controller for now since his GT2 wheel will not work on it so he could not really tell a lot about the way it drives. He said from what he can tell it feels like Forza. The auto vista of course does not interest him at all so he did not even bother to look at it yet. The track list is not very impressive but he said that he did like the new Prague track but of course no Nurburgring is a huge disappointment as is the absence of Maple Valley. I would not be surprised to see Nurburgring come up as a $10 DLC which is just sad.

 

[Joey D]

I think I'm the only person who isn't disappointed that the Nurburgring isn't in the game. I think it's an awful track and way to over rated. Not having Maple Valley though is a big disappointment.

 

[HAL20XX]

But physics without a proper racing game built around it are useless.

That's reaching right there. I do agree that as far as true-to-life racing goes, Forza and GT are both severely lacking.

 

[Terronium-12]

I get that people don't like the token system, but it's not like you have to use them to progress through the game. Also I'm not sure how people are having a hard time getting credits. I've only been able to play maybe an hour a day and I'm almost at 500,000 without too much trouble.

The problem isn't having or not having to use them, it's the fact that everywhere you look there's a prompt for acceleration or buying any and everything with tokens - the monetization is outright discouraging and doesn't leave me very hopeful for whatever becomes of Forza's future design choices.

More and more it's beginning to look as if Horizon wasn't a temporary slip up.

As far as ridiculous choices go it's literally one step below NFS World.