Forza 5 physics vs GT6 аnd other sims

[Siren]

Are you saying your opinion matters more than every opinion on this forum and is the truth?

I think he's talking about the fanboys on each console. I have both GT6 and forza 5 (although I only play forza 5 with controller ) I agree with most of what he's saying. Its not the matter of his opinion being better than others. That's not what he conveyed. Its more about how the fanboys defend they're games without giving thought about the other. "GT is the best because I've been playing since birth so clearly its the best and Forza sucks because its not GT." I think that's what he was getting at.

 

[Speedster911]

In any event, he should do real life tests to get to the point. Both games are an extension of what the devs claim as realistic.

 

[fifomaniak]

Hello, I have very recently bought an Xbox One and Forza 5. I've only played Forza games a few times before and I'm very surprised by the physics. Most of the cars have huge tendency to oversteer, even front heavy.

I own a 1998 MX-5 in real life and it feels nicely balanced, I've been on track with it more than few times and I know how it handles. It can oversteer if I'm very aggressive with the steering or the throttle on low-grip surface or if I unsettle it with left foot braking while turinng in, but if there is a long corner and I'm smooth with my inputs , it'll understeer. In Forza 5 I took the 2013 MX-5 out and it oversteers like a pig no matter what I do, I have to be very cautios not to slide it. While it might seem fun, for me it's completely unrealistic. Especially that the newer cars are set even more to understeer, cause they have been designed to hit obstacles with the front.

Going into the car settings I saw that cars have more negative camber at front than at rear, which maybe could explain that behaviour (in real cars there more camber is at the real axis usually). But you can't change it unless you buy racing springs and dampers. And even after that, the car still seemed too oversteery.

I've only had the game for two days but that are my concerns for now. I didn't go into very fast cars yet, tried Infiniti Q50 and it also feels too oversteery for a saloon car.

Is it normal for Forza or am I doing something wrong here?

 

[Speedster911]

They definitely added more bite to the front wheels in FM5, after folks complaining about cars feeling like driving on ice and too understeery. I don't completely agree with that, it was fine where it was in FM4.

So they catered to the fans and changed the handling model a bit.

Though to really test the game's physics I highly recommend using a wheel because 1. The X1's controller doesn't have the same range of freedom as the analog sticks and triggers did on the X360 and; 2. The deadzone settings are not the best out of the box, this goes for ALL Forza games, so do yourself a huge favor mate, and set them all to inside 0 outside 100.

I haven't played FM5 myself, but I think for a console game FM4 achieved a lot, in it's attempt at chasing the realism you see in PC sims. It could have been much much more, but then again it's a console title geared towards certain audiences, and hardcore simmers ain't one of them.

Enjoy FM5 - as far as I know, it's the most realistic driving game you're going to find on a console at the moment. Get FM4 too though... it's a classic, there's a LOT more stuff to do online and offline, and you're going to simply love the car collection.

 

[Pseudopod]

Its really an issue if you want to exaggerate colors, or bring out really dark spots. Say turn this picture

To this

If the original was shot with only 8 bit color, that would be a very good trick.

Also most TN based LCD/LED panels are 6bit+dithering. which is too bad. These are used in most laptops and low cost displays. Also used in high refresh rate displays (120hz gaming monitors.)

Most (all?) PS4, X1, and PC games are 32bit (8bits for red, green, blue, and 8bit for alpha) I don't know of any 30bit (10bit for each color) native games. But I'd love to be corrected.

Internal rendering and the final image output aren't the same. You don't need 8 bits for alpha in the final rendering of the frame, because the image you see on your TV/monitor isn't going to be partially transparent. a 30-bit display will be able to recreate all the colors of the 32bit internal rendering.

Anyway, i'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I can create a picture with as much dynamic range as in that picture even if my camera's sensor only has 8 bits per channel. Lightroom is an amazing tool.

 

[VXR]

I really wouldn't recommend going back to FM4 once you.ve played 5. It's just too forgiving.

 

[SlyNine]

Internal rendering and the final image output aren't the same. You don't need 8 bits for alpha in the final rendering of the frame, because the image you see on your TV/monitor isn't going to be partially transparent. a 30-bit display will be able to recreate all the colors of the 32bit internal rendering.

Anyway, i'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I can create a picture with as much dynamic range as in that picture even if my camera's sensor only has 8 bits per channel. Lightroom is an amazing tool.

The original picture in that was stored as a 10bit image (actually I believe it was a 12 or 14bit), because of that they were able to pull out details that would otherwise cause banding (unless software compensates), be to dark, or washed out. You will not manage as much dynamic range with a 8bit sensor or recover the lost information once compressed to 8bit (0-255<0-1023). How could you?

The 32 bit standard came about because it was easier and more efficient to toss around 32bit information (in a 32-bit CPU) than 24bit, however 24bit can obtain the same image quality. (8x8x8).

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Hello, I have very recently bought an Xbox One and Forza 5. I've only played Forza games a few times before and I'm very surprised by the physics. Most of the cars have huge tendency to oversteer, even front heavy.

I own a 1998 MX-5 in real life and it feels nicely balanced, I've been on track with it more than few times and I know how it handles. It can oversteer if I'm very aggressive with the steering or the throttle on low-grip surface or if I unsettle it with left foot braking while turinng in, but if there is a long corner and I'm smooth with my inputs , it'll understeer. In Forza 5 I took the 2013 MX-5 out and it oversteers like a pig no matter what I do, I have to be very cautios not to slide it. While it might seem fun, for me it's completely unrealistic. Especially that the newer cars are set even more to understeer, cause they have been designed to hit obstacles with the front.

Going into the car settings I saw that cars have more negative camber at front than at rear, which maybe could explain that behaviour (in real cars there more camber is at the real axis usually). But you can't change it unless you buy racing springs and dampers. And even after that, the car still seemed too oversteery.

I've only had the game for two days but that are my concerns for now. I didn't go into very fast cars yet, tried Infiniti Q50 and it also feels too oversteery for a saloon car.

Is it normal for Forza or am I doing something wrong here?

Yep that is how the game is to drive, cars feel very poorly / strangely balanced. This is link to my first impression of it before game got released: Link Still have similar opinion even with retail released game fully updated.

 

[SlyNine]

Yep that is how the game is to drive, cars feel very poorly / strangely balanced. This is link to my first impression of it before game got released: Link Still have similar opinion even with retail released game fully updated.

Funny thing is. most PC sims reflect this tendency.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Funny thing is. most PC sims reflect this tendency.

Which ones?

 

[Speedster911]

The original picture in that was stored as a 10bit image (actually I believe it was a 12 or 14bit), because of that they were able to pull out details that would otherwise cause banding (unless software compensates), be to dark, or washed out. You will not manage as much dynamic range with a 8bit sensor or recover the lost information once compressed to 8bit (0-255<0-1023). How could you?

The 32 bit standard came about because it was easier and more efficient to toss around 32bit information (in a 32-bit CPU) than 24bit, however 24bit can obtain the same image quality. (8x8x8).

Right. As far as console gaming goes, an 8-bit panel HD screen is good enough, right? 8 * 3 = 24 bits of color.

Yep that is how the game is to drive, cars feel very poorly / strangely balanced. This is link to my first impression of it before game got released: Link Still have similar opinion even with retail released game fully updated.

So the question is, does FM4 do physics better than FM5? *Jeremy Clarkson voice*

 

[SlyNine]

Which ones?

From my experience assetto corsa and Iracing tend to oversteer. Especially throttle off oversteer, Forza 4 was very forgiving in that area.

Really all sims are going to be strange, none of their physics are correct. Its all about what compromises you are able to live with.

I wonder how it would feel to drive a real car remotely threw a FFB wheel and monitor, I have a hunch that it would feel/seem strange even tho it's exactly right.

 

[fifomaniak]

Playing a bit more, my opinion is RWD cars feel like they lack differential at the back axle or at least it is set very tightly. It's very hard to drive an RWD car smoothly even at moderate pace, not to mention pushing it hard. You'll find yourself very often fighting with oversteer either on exit of lower speed corners even if you try to be gentle on the throttle. And in fast corners either lifting off the throttle or giving it a bit of gas produces oversteer hard to catch. 4WD cars I tried feel much better, Evo X feels actually pretty good and gives me confidence in the corners, cause it doesn't oversteer all the time, Audi RS4 2006 feels maybe a bit too oversteery still, cause Audi are known for their understeer, but it still feels more predictable than for example Infiniti I mentioned earlier. I also think grip of the tires in straight line is too high, braking distances and burnouts at start seem very short.

These are my feelings for now, having spent 5h purely on driving and done over 600 kms in few different cars.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Playing a bit more, my opinion is RWD cars feel like they lack differential at the back axle or at least it is set very tightly. It's very hard to drive an RWD car smoothly even at moderate pace, not to mention pushing it hard. You'll find yourself very often fighting with oversteer either on exit of lower speed corners even if you try to be gentle on the throttle. And in fast corners either lifting off the throttle or giving it a bit of gas produces oversteer hard to catch. 4WD cars I tried feel much better, Evo X feels actually pretty good and gives me confidence in the corners, cause it doesn't oversteer all the time, Audi RS4 2006 feels maybe a bit too oversteery still, cause Audi are known for their understeer, but it still feels more predictable than for example Infiniti I mentioned earlier. I also think grip of the tires in straight line is too high, braking distances and burnouts at start seem very short.

These are my feelings for now, having spent 5h purely on driving and done over 600 kms in few different cars.

Does Forza 5 have Corvette C5 Z06 ? I'm really interested to know if a replica tune would work on FM5 and compare both GT6 and FM5 version. For the RWD car issue, have you tuned the suspension, in particular toe and camber ? how does LSD setup in FM5 ? Similar to GT6 with initial, accel and brake ?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

So the question is, does FM4 do physics better than FM5? *Jeremy Clarkson voice*

It may well be better.

From my experience assetto corsa and Iracing tend to oversteer. Especially throttle off oversteer, Forza 4 was very forgiving in that area.

Really all sims are going to be strange, none of their physics are correct. Its all about what compromises you are able to live with.

I wonder how it would feel to drive a real car remotely threw a FFB wheel and monitor, I have a hunch that it would feel/seem strange even tho it's exactly right.

Assetto Corsa is relatively easy to drive like pCARS and Raceroom Racing Experience compared to iRacing and especially Forza 5.

 

[Speedster911]

From my experience assetto corsa and Iracing tend to oversteer. Especially throttle off oversteer, Forza 4 was very forgiving in that area.

Really all sims are going to be strange, none of their physics are correct. Its all about what compromises you are able to live with.

I wonder how it would feel to drive a real car remotely threw a FFB wheel and monitor, I have a hunch that it would feel/seem strange even tho it's exactly right.

You're right there mate.

While Forza 4 is forgiving, it tends to simulate proper off-throttle oversteer for some cars, and then for others (where it should), it doesn't. Part of this could be due to limited wheel rotation on controllers. I still wonder today what it would feel like playing FM4 on a souped up PC. You must have read @TheCrazySwede's story on talking to one of the T10 officials - how they had to dumb down the physics slightly to get the locked 60 fps on the X360. We might have had more unforgiving suspension physics if it were a PC game. Oh well...they somewhat improved suspension physics in Horizon 1, but only slightly.

None of these sims, even PC sims, get it completely right. Making a game is easy. Making simulators of any kind, is TOUGH business. Putting that down on code for a console - compromises have to be made.

IMO, a lot of these games have come close to the real thing, Forza's among them. But not quite match up to real-world nuances of pushing a high-powered car over the edge.

Plus, driving on public roads is different; cars behave slightly differently on track from what I understand.

In any case, this is a good time to be a gamer/sim lover. FM6, GT7, Project Cars.... ah, the anticipation's killing me!

It may well be better.

^^ Don't know why, but I pictured James May replying to that.. !

Assetto Corsa is relatively easy to drive like pCARS and Raceroom Racing Experience compared to iRacing and especially Forza 5.

More difficult does not necessarily mean better physics. Though I've heard people say the opposite: PCARS and AC is very difficult to drive.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

You're right there mate.

While Forza 4 is forgiving, it tends to simulate proper off-throttle oversteer for some cars, and then for others (where it should), it doesn't. Part of this could be due to limited wheel rotation on controllers. I still wonder today what it would feel like playing FM4 on a souped up PC. You must have read @TheCrazySwede's story on talking to one of the T10 officials - how they had to dumb down the physics slightly to get the locked 60 fps on the X360. We might have had more unforgiving suspension physics if it were a PC game. Oh well...they somewhat improved suspension physics in Horizon 1, but only slightly.

None of these sims, even PC sims, get it completely right. Making a game is easy. Making simulators of any kind, is TOUGH business. Putting that down on code for a console - compromises have to be made.

IMO, a lot of these games have come close to the real thing, Forza's among them. But not quite match up to real-world nuances of pushing a high-powered car over the edge.

Plus, driving on public roads is different; cars behave slightly differently on track from what I understand.

In any case, this is a good time to be a gamer/sim lover. FM6, GT7, Project Cars.... ah, the anticipation's killing me!



More difficult does not necessarily mean better physics. Though I've heard people say the opposite: PCARS and AC is very difficult to drive.

Yes this is why I think some people may like physics of FM5 because it is difficult but it is not realistic.

pCARS and AC are very easy to drive in my opinion.

 

[fifomaniak]

Does Forza 5 have Corvette C5 Z06 ? I'm really interested to know if a replica tune would work on FM5 and compare both GT6 and FM5 version. For the RWD car issue, have you tuned the suspension, in particular toe and camber ? how does LSD setup in FM5 ? Similar to GT6 with initial, accel and brake ?

Yes, it does have a C5 Z06 (that one, right? http://www.kudosprime.com/f5/car_sheet.php?id=55). I haven't driven it yet though, and haven't gone into the tuning much, as I like to drive cars stock to get to know their original character. Tuning is always an option, but the game should replicate how car drives in stock form as well. I'll check the LSD tuning options later and tell you what's what

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Yes, it does have a C5 Z06 (that one, right? http://www.kudosprime.com/f5/car_sheet.php?id=55). I haven't driven it yet though, and haven't gone into the tuning much, as I like to drive cars stock to get to know their original character. Tuning is always an option, but the game should replicate how car drives in stock form as well. I'll check the LSD tuning options later and tell you what's what

In GT6, most cars when stock don't even have proper stock setup ( from power, weight, tire, suspension, lsd etc ) , which is why I build so many replicas ( corrections )

I saw FM5 almost got the weight correct I wonder about weight distribution, gearing, suspension spring rate, alignment etc I hope FM5 have Willow Springs.

 

[fifomaniak]

In GT6, most cars when stock don't even have proper stock setup ( from power, weight, tire, suspension, lsd etc ) , which is why I build so many replicas ( corrections )

I saw FM5 almost got the weight correct I wonder about weight distribution, gearing, suspension spring rate, alignment etc I hope FM5 have Willow Springs.

Yeah, I know some parameters are wrong, but so far the cars feel closer to real in GT6 rather than in FM5. Although, I have to admit, I don't have a wheel for Xbox One yet, but I've tried it with a wheel before and it still felt a bit weird (458 more nervous than F40 for example).

FM5 doesn't have Willow Springs, it does have Road America, Road Atlanta, Sebring, Laguna Seca and Long Beach from American tracks. I'll tell you the C5 stats later.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

From my experience assetto corsa and Iracing tend to oversteer. Especially throttle off oversteer, Forza 4 was very forgiving in that area.

FM4 wasn't very good at simulating weight transfer. That was my biggest issue with the game.

 

[SlyNine]

It may well be better.

Assetto Corsa is relatively easy to drive like pCARS and Raceroom Racing Experience compared to iRacing and especially Forza 5.

To me Assetto Corsa is more prone to oversteer than FM5. But different drivers, different inputs, different results.

 

[SlyNine]

Right. As far as console gaming goes, an 8-bit panel HD screen is good enough, right? 8 * 3 = 24 bits of color.



So the question is, does FM4 do physics better than FM5? *Jeremy Clarkson voice*

Anything more would be a waste. 10bit panels are pretty much for professional photographers, would cost thousands, and might not perform well for games.

 

[Speedster911]

Right, so it looks like even this console generation, an 8-bit screen would more than suffice.

Cheers matey!

FM4 wasn't very good at simulating weight transfer. That was my biggest issue with the game.

I think it did an okay job. Far better than FM3. The motion effects in FM4 actually ruined the feeling of proper weight transfer, particularly in the first person views, would youa agree? Cars would feel too twitchy and floaty at the same time. Turn mot. effects off, and they feel more planted.. like the tires are actually getting worn while the suspension's getting a good workout.

Anyway, how much better does FM5 do in the weight transfer and suspension physics scope?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

To me Assetto Corsa is more prone to oversteer than FM5. But different drivers, different inputs, different results.

Oversteer in Assetto Corsa feels very progressive and fun and understandable in situation you experience it in, I can't say the same with FM5 where car behaviour looks very wrong to me.

For example here is a race lap on Assetto Corsa I uploaded, handling doesn't seem much different than the real car below:

 

[SlyNine]

Oversteer in Assetto Corsa feels very progressive and fun and understandable in situation you experience it in, I can't say the same with FM5 where car behaviour looks very wrong to me.

For example here is a race lap on Assetto Corsa I uploaded, handling doesn't seem much different than the real car below:

And yet I doubt the tires, setup, road temps, and/or inputs are the same. So the fact they look the same just means you cannot judge anything from the videos.

 

[Speedster911]

Oversteer in Assetto Corsa feels very progressive and fun and understandable in situation you experience it in, I can't say the same with FM5 where car behaviour looks very wrong to me.

For example here is a race lap on Assetto Corsa I uploaded, handling doesn't seem much different than the real car below:

Love the wheel animation. That should be a standard in ALL racing games!

Suspension feedback looks impressive. But those downshift sounds... those are horrible! I'm offended!

I believe FM5 deliberately puts limits on how believably cars react to your inputs. Is it a hardware issue? Don't think so. Just that crap about making the title more accessible to all audiences. Don't understand why they just can't have full-on sim physics and then offer options and assists to those looking for a more casual experience.

Shame.

And yet I doubt the tires, setup, road temps, and/or inputs are the same. So the fact they look the same just means you cannot judge anything from the videos.

Agreed.

I haven't played FM5.. or Asseto Corsa. But I believe in terms of realism, PC seems are at the top of the food chain.

In terms of most realistic game on a console - the honor goes to Forza.

 

[VXR]

You'd be better off playing FM5 first for yourself, because with all assists off, it's not accessible to just anyone. I assure you.

 

[mister dog]

FM4 wasn't very good at simulating weight transfer. That was my biggest issue with the game.

I put in FM4 again this week and i have to agree, with assists of and sim steering it feels a lot like you are trying to get a tank back on the road after you experience oversteer. It's not very progressive and surprises you a lot.

1. The X1's controller doesn't have the same range of freedom as the analog sticks and triggers did on the X360

I was asking about this in another thread, my main problem with the X360 pad was the lack of vibration and feedback through the controller with FM4 and i was told it's a lot better with 5 and the Xbone pad.
You feel the 360 controller is actually better?

 

[UKMikey]

@mister dog If I were you, I would try and get down to a shop and try out the Xbox One controller and make up your own mind. In my experience the 360 controller feels like a stiff old piece of antiquated crap in comparison.