Forza Motorsport 3

[Stevisiov]

Forza 2 had some great fantasy tracks so I am kind of more looking forward to them than the tracks I have driven to death already. I am so tired of all these GP tracks it´s ridiculous. Not nordschleife though I wonder if you ever can get enough of that

Le Mans is really not that great of a track either. I am sure it´s amazing IRL due to the speed though

The track felt alive with a wheel though In GT4, the bumpy road with Group C cars shook increadibly violently down the Mulsanne. In slower cars, the long straights and fast corners aren't particularly engaging. I do love the track though.

 

[Gabkicks]

the bumps felt so generic. I'd prefer a laser scanned tracks :/ so that the bumps are where they're supposed to be, and not just some coding that causes the steering wheel to rumble when driven on certain areas.

 

[oqvist]

I think the bumps are "real" in Forza 3 look at the suspension working in the Le Mans videos.

 

[Biggles]

This mindless fanboy war is getting kinda pathetic, why do people on both sides feel the need to hate on one of these games ?

Both offer features the other one doesnt, Forza has its strong points, GT has its strong points, neither game is perfect and one can easliy pick faults with both games.

another thing that seems off to me, is just how much emphasis some people seem to be placeing on graphics, last i checked gameplay was the most important factor, and by the looks of thing both games have insanely good graphics, the differance between them is marginal at best, i really dont see the average player who isnt a total graphics wh*re choosing FM3 or GT5 simply based on with game has the shinyest graphics, their not so anally retentive as to spend hours of there time analizing Alpha build screenshots to decide which game is better.

Enjoy both games, each has something the other doesnt.

Amen to that!

There's no game that has delivered the complete package yet. Here's hoping that both FM3 and GT5 come up with the goods.

On the graphics front, GT5 still looks more "realistic", but FM3 looks very nice in a more "game-environment" way. I've always felt that in GT you feel like you're actually on the RL track, whereas in Forza it looks more like an "artificial" environment. However, FM3 looks like a big step up from FM2 , & either way, BOTH FM3 & GT5 look more than adequate.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I like the mountain tracks because it's the virtual equivalent of taking a car up on a nice, twisty mountain road. I like how the cars reacted to the weight transfer and changes in road camber.

 

[Clark]

I like how the cars reacted to the weight transfer and changes in road camber.

These types of tracks are enjoyable with a good physics engine, but will be a bit sterile in FM3 as all the cars have unrealistic amounts of grip.

As I've always thought, FM games are perfect apart from the actual driving itself.

I do agree with the bumps on Forza 2 though, the tracks are all smooth as silk. And it looks that way at Le Mans in FM3 aswell.

 

[WolfRacer543]

These types of tracks are enjoyable with a good physics engine, but will be a bit sterile in FM3 as all the cars have unrealistic amounts of grip.

So you've played the final build in full simulation mode then?

We dont know until its come out. Dan in one of his many interviews said it was a completely new game engine, which is what's allowing them to use high res textures on the cars and longer draw distances on the track. They've also said they are doing tire deformation which will actually affect physics, which they haven't done before. So we can't assume how its gonna drive. When you assume you make an ass out of u and... well, just you...

 

[bevo]

So you've played the final build in full simulation mode then?

We dont know until its come out. Dan in one of his many interviews said it was a completely new game engine, which is what's allowing them to use high res textures on the cars and longer draw distances on the track. They've also said they are doing tire deformation which will actually affect physics, which they haven't done before. So we can't assume how its gonna drive. When you assume you make an ass out of u and... well, just you...

Exactly.
Did you see the guys from the E3 video from sim central. They were speechless, and that wasn't even on the sim mode. I think Forza 3 looks like the real deal, and once again the ps3 is taking it's good old time, letting the 360 get the jump on it.

Hopefully GT5 really is all that we have been waiting for. I have friends that ride me all the time about how the ps3 never delivers, and I hate to say it, but most of the time they are right. I love my ps3, I use it way more then the 360, but it's mostly for music, movies, and socom. Everything else is the 360. It's just so much easier to get together with friends, and get in games together. I turn it on, and game invites are waiting on me. Hit 3 buttons and your on your way to their game.

Either way, I bet both games are going to be great, and I'm glad I own both systems, and have the turbo s wheel on it's way. Forza 3, and then GT5, probably about the time forza is starting to get a little old will be perfect for me.

 

[RedOak]

i really think this "not realistic physics" stuff is a bit off to be honest... I've just recently been in a street car (stock) with Slick tires, and surprisingly, from first hand experience, i find that little car to stick a ******** to the track; bumps, cracks, dirt, gravel and all that **** combined. Since FM3's announcement, i've been returning to the racing world through GT5p and FM2, and frankly, i think FM2's a lot better than GT5p; not only as a game, but as a racer as well. Cars feel a lot more in control in the corners and the "tires" feel way more realistic to me. Again, i'm talking from first hand experience on the track. Now its not that i'm not liking GT5p, god knows i've been a big fan of the series... but i truly believe that, although GT5's a good step up from GT4, its not a real advancement in racing... not like FM2 was to FM1. Ultimately, i don't know what FM3 will be to FM2, but unless they ****up what they already have in FM2, its gonna be a hell of an experience to race.

My only big concerns at the moment, are Multiplayer options (which were seriously lacking in FM2) and the so famous and desired Cockpit view. For all its worth, GT5p's was beautiful, but a big failure (imho) because it makes the game seem even more static than it already is, with its little flimsy hands barely touching the wheel and turning at such a slow pace which doesn't follow the player's actual wheel (if he so uses one)... very annoying and rather distracting. Here's hoping FM3's is better.

 

[KSaiyu]

i really think this "not realistic physics" stuff is a bit off to be honest... I've just recently been in a street car (stock) with Slick tires, and surprisingly, from first hand experience, i find that little car to stick a ******** to the track; bumps, cracks, dirt, gravel and all that **** combined. Since FM3's announcement, i've been returning to the racing world through GT5p and FM2, and frankly, i think FM2's a lot better than GT5p; not only as a game, but as a racer as well. Cars feel a lot more in control in the corners and the "tires" feel way more realistic to me. Again, i'm talking from first hand experience on the track. Now its not that i'm not liking GT5p, god knows i've been a big fan of the series... but i truly believe that, although GT5's a good step up from GT4, its not a real advancement in racing... not like FM2 was to FM1. Ultimately, i don't know what FM3 will be to FM2, but unless they ****up what they already have in FM2, its gonna be a hell of an experience to race.

My only big concerns at the moment, are Multiplayer options (which were seriously lacking in FM2) and the so famous and desired Cockpit view. For all its worth, GT5p's was beautiful, but a big failure (imho) because it makes the game seem even more static than it already is, with its little flimsy hands barely touching the wheel and turning at such a slow pace which doesn't follow the player's actual wheel (if he so uses one)... very annoying and rather distracting. Here's hoping FM3's is better.

Really? Are you using N spec tyres on GT5 plus Professional mode? I used to be really into hotlapping and tournaments in Forza 2 and vividly remember Lotus Elans being driven in one gear and muscle cars beating all others in class due to Forza's physics.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I used to be really into hotlapping and tournaments in Forza 2 and vividly remember Lotus Elans being driven in one gear and muscle cars beating all others in class due to Forza's physics.

That was because of some bugs, which I think they never fixed. I think they might have banned the Elan, but I'm not sure. But they did delete a large portion of my times after their "fix". Either way, I think it was more of a problem with their class system than the physics.

 

[McLaren]

Yep, I think instead looking to fix the Elan through updates, they just banned it & wiped the boards. A lot of lap times on this game are still fairly questionable though.

 

[WolfRacer543]

i really think this "not realistic physics" stuff is a bit off to be honest... I've just recently been in a street car (stock) with Slick tires, and surprisingly, from first hand experience, i find that little car to stick a ******** to the track; bumps, cracks, dirt, gravel and all that **** combined.

Well, of course its gonna grip better, you wouldn't put "race" tires on a car that make it slower The thing about racing slicks on racing suspension, though, is most of them have a "knife edge" effect when you get closer to the limit. The rise up to maximum grip is a sharp rise, then the fall away from maximum grip is often quite sharp, making it harder to hold at the edge of its limit.

If you look at a graph of slip angle vs. cornering force for a street tire its much flatter and comes up to and drops away more gradually from its maximum (its maximum still being far from the racing slick's maximum).

Most PC racing sims I've played simulate that well, where racing cars can corner a hell of a lot faster, but to get the most out of them takes a lot more patience and skill. Where as the street cars, they can't corner as fast, but its easier to get close to their limit without losing it.

Also because racing slicks are extremely soft, they pick up gravel which affects their performance. When we take our car with soft racing slicks out to the track we often put tire covers on it if we have to push it over stones. You can actually get a puncture if a particularly long and sharp stone gets itself wedged in the tire (doesn't happen often, but it can happen, where as it basically never happens on street tires). The worst is when the car comes back in after a few laps, the tires are hot and extremely soft and tacky (they even feel tacky if you just touch them), if the driver decides to drive through some stones the wheels pick up every damn one of them and they get stuck in really deep.

 

[KSaiyu]

That was because of some bugs, which I think they never fixed. I think they might have banned the Elan, but I'm not sure. But they did delete a large portion of my times after their "fix". Either way, I think it was more of a problem with their class system than the physics.

As Reventon said, they adjusted the class exploit but the physics remain for some weird loopholes (look at class B and A). Still I could understand a preference over GT4 but coming straight to Forza 2 from GT5 feels wildy different and kind of last-gen.

 

[oqvist]

You mean GT 5 Prologue feels last gen? That is what I feel anyway in term of tire physics

 

[WolfRacer543]

You mean GT 5 Prologue feels last gen? That is what I feel anyway in term of tire physics

Well Live for Speed has been around for a few years and its still got the best tire physics I've seen

 

[oqvist]

Yes LFS is not last gen though it´s getting continuously updated. GT 5 Prologue tire physics is very much last gen

 

[RedOak]

Explaning how compound tires behave in real life with gravel and stuff doesn't have anything to do with a videogame. That's never gonna happen in games, and even if it did, it would be a simulated setting like (grip = -10% for X=time) like any RPG would do if you drink a potion of some sort.

Feeling wise, I think Forza's got better control over the subtle art of grip and having the player feel the difference. In GT5p, my only cue as to grip is the generic (and quite bad) tire squeel sound. Too much and i start loosing control, plain and simple.

Also, i play GT5p with a Wheel (DFP) and FM2 with the controller, and i get better results with FM2, because i have more control over the feel of the tires on the track. I'm less accurate to the apex, but it doesn't matter because i'm smooth enough with the thumbstick and i get enough feedback to know when i'm at the limit, just like in a real car. While in GT5p, i'm always struggling to find that limit and usually lose control.

Overall, the peripheral is not the key to the experience... and the experience is, imho, better delievered in FM2 than in GT5p. So here's hoping FM3 builds up on an excellent quality game... and perhaps PD can pull their heads out of there asses and start focusing on what really matters and stop adding stupid polygones to cars and create entire city scenes with poorly animated people...

 

[Clark]

So you've played the final build in full simulation mode then?

No but you can tell with the ingame footage of the Le Mans that the car is carrying way too much speed through the corners compared to real life. The physics look the same as in FM2. The same physics which allowed an uncompetitive (in it's day, let alone now) 1998 LMP car to almost do F1 lap times. And the same physics which cars with softer suspension were faster.

The cars also accelerate too quickly, te cars no time at all to reach their top speed(GT does this aswell, but not quite as bad) and still thinks that just because a car is four wheel drive it can do 0-30mph in 0.0000000000001s.

It just looks like it has the same physics as FM2, in which all the cars had way too much grip.

The proof will be in the pudding.

 

[Joey D]

You are looking at pre-production in game footage, Forza isn't even complete yet. You can't even begin to comment on the physics yet until the actual game has been released.

 

[Kryz11]

You are looking at pre-production in game footage, Forza isn't even complete yet. You can't even begin to comment on the physics yet until the actual game has been released.

Game is coming out in 3-4 months. They made game in 2 years. What they got now, it will be in full game. They might change few things, lil things, but I bet Physics will be very simular. I was waching the LAMBO videos, aids seems to be off ecept ABS, and it seem like it was a FR car not MR .. Sure they improved it over FM2 so it seems, but it really still looks like they did not do the MR cars right yeat.

But heck, it still a great sim, but I bet I will be playing the game since day one and complaining about physics myself.

 

[Joey D]

It's really hard to make an accurate judgment from a video, and I'm willing to bet there will be changes made to the game. They really just let people start playing it and I'm sure they are going to change things based on what initial reviews have said...although most reviews have been extremely positive. The average consumer still doesn't know enough about the game to really assume anything, all we really got to go on is a few reports from some game review sites.

I don't expect the physics to be perfect in the game because no game has ever been perfect. I still think GT5 missed the mark with physics. They are still video games and nothing will ever compare to the real thing.

 

[Dave A]

GT5 misses the mark a bit like every other game as you just said. But to me GT5 is the best console sim I've played. I haven't played SHIFT of Forza 3 same as most if not all of us here, but regardless of where thoes end up GT5 is still a very good attempt and GT5 will be no worse that's pretty mch a given. I still feel that the transition from full grip to no grip is too vague in GT5 but it's a big improvment over GT4.

 

[Joey D]

I don't disagree, GT5 is very good in terms of it's physics, I just don't think it's the be all and end all like so many people make it out to be. But I guess you can't ever get a fair assessment on a game specific website.

 

[Delphic Reason]

GT5 is very good in terms of it's physics, I just don't think it's the be all and end all

Nope, that's iRacing.

 

[KSaiyu]

You are looking at pre-production in game footage, Forza isn't even complete yet. You can't even begin to comment on the physics yet until the actual game has been released.

While that's true, we can make educated guesses. I don't know if you were around the Race Pro forums when the first wet weather videos came out but most of us could tell something was wrong and, sure enough come release the wet tracks had the same grip as the dry.

As for Forza 3, the only gameplay we can go on doesn't look appealing to my tastes, and with the news that the R8 V10 managed a 4:05 around Le Mans in the Audi event seems to confirm some of our suspicions (The LMGT2s in the real race were doing around those times).

I'm still anticipating it's release, but if it's only a small improvement in physics ala GT3 -> GT4 I'm going to be slightly disappointed.

Regarding GT5, I echo Dave A's comments. My acid test is how MR cars react and how a RWD car accelerates out of slow corners, once a thorny issue in GT4. Try back to back Forza 2 and GT5 to see where I'm coming from 👍

 

[RedOak]

I still feel that the transition from full grip to no grip is too vague in GT5 but it's a big improvment over GT4.

Totally agree here. And that's why i appreciate FM2 so much. There is more transition time, thus more time to feel the change in grip level. Not saying its perfect, but i think its a lot better than GT5p's, better physics or not.

 

[Delphic Reason]

Totally agree here. And that's why i appreciate FM2 so much. There is more transition time, thus more time to feel the change in grip level. Not saying its perfect, but i think its a lot better than GT5p's, better physics or not.

Definitely not perfect. FM2's tire physics were not good at all. That's right, I said it. GT5's tire physics aren't perfect either, but FM2 has serious problems with the tire code. I have been racing/drifting IRL for years. The way FM2 codes their traction physics is way off. Very floaty, and wayyyy too easy to drift. Although, once you're in said drift, the front wheels have much less control then they would have IRL. In this respect, GT5 is much better. Probably my biggest problem with FM2 (other than the horrible replay camera angles) was the floaty unrealistic traction physics.

When it comes to consoles, I still think GT5 has the edge (physics), but no console game can touch the likes of RBR, iRacing, and LFS, in my opinion.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

As Reventon said, they adjusted the class exploit but the physics remain for some weird loopholes (look at class B and A). Still I could understand a preference over GT4 but coming straight to Forza 2 from GT5 feels wildy different and kind of last-gen.

But how do you know it's the physics and not the way the performance index/class is calculated?

 

[RedOak]

I don't think the perfect simulation of tire physics is the key to a better racing game tho... the better game is the one that communicates controls and car behavior better.