- 9,589
- GTP_DelphicR
- Esoterik1
Forza Motorsport 3
- Thread starter RedOak
- 3,944 comments
- 291,783 views
Which has a lot to do with the tire physics.
Sorry, but tire physics, accurately modeled, is very important to a "simulation" game.
You are confusing two subjects here. Its not the physics that is important; its that the player understands and feels the tire's change in behavior. Feedback is key, from full sim to the most arcade-like game.
Physics is just relevant to people who care or knows about it. Feedback makes everyone understand the said information (physics).
- 9,589
- GTP_DelphicR
- Esoterik1
I am certainly not confusing anything. To say the physics aren't important, is asinine. Yes, feedback is very important, but without the proper physics, you end up with something like PGR4. Great feedback, horrible physics.
Both are important, but the tire physics are something that I think more games do wrong.
horrible physics, but good and fun racing game... See the point i'm trying to make here, is that physics is just a level of complexity which is not required in a racing game. Its certainly desired, it most certainly enhances the game experience of some, but why do you think the best selling games ratio on the market is still the arcade-like Need For Speeds and PGRs... ? Because of its simplicity, but most importantly, because of its communication with the audience. Which brings me back to GT5p, which is terrible at communicating with the player. Games like PGR4, GRID, NFSx all have a better understanding of what the player needs to understand in order to race better, while GTx always try to push a physics engine which is all broken and weak because they try to make better graphics, better view distance, better lighting to make everything more "realistic"... and the processing power required is bottlenecked that there are an amazing number of compromised made during production.
No wonder everyone praises iracing.com... its certainly supposed to be the best physics of the lot... but its graphics are ugly, the game is certainly not accessible and there is next to zero customization available to the player. All these things going in complete contradiction to what the current market wants. Which brings me back to Forza2/3... which makes an extremely good compromise between "realism" and "fun". It does physics good enough to convince sunday racers its worthy of their time, and certain sells a ******** of copies while offering all forementionned features the "sim world" lacks. Plus, they offer a lot of support for their community...
Overall, physics, be it the best in the world, won't make a good racing game all by itself. I for one, will always accept the tradeoff of "uber physics" for credibility and fun. Which Forza brought to me in 2 games, which GT failed to do in 8.
Just to close this argument here... I'm sure, if PD weren't so stuck in their old ways and would accept change, they could easily beat FM... but instead, they stick to old things and refuse to change their behavior... SOny's doing the same... look at the PS3... total disaster. Its a better machine than the 360, yet, all the good and better games are on the 360 and no one wants anything to do witht he PS3 because its complicated and too moody to work on... sim vs credibilty reinvented.
Physics only makes physics. It doesn't make fun.
- 5,611
- Gabkicks
- GabkicksX
If you want to play a good simulation, if you want cars to behave as they do in real life and have fun from that, then tire physics are crucial and one of the most difficult things to get even partially right.
Setting a fast lap that required a lot of skill and technique is more rewarding than doing one in a arcade game that took almost no effort for me. What games have incredible physics, but are crappy to play?
Setting a fast lap that required a lot of skill and technique is more rewarding than doing one in a arcade game that took almost no effort for me. What games have incredible physics, but are crappy to play?
- 21,192
- United States
- nk4e
I wonder what you think of Enthusia?
http://www.gameplaymonthly.com/games/enthusia/2.jpg
At best, it was far better than GT4 and Forza 2 ( or 1 ). Though it didn't have the hype of GT or FM. But think the group of gamers that each company targets while making the game.
McLaren
Premium
- 45,551
- Texas
The physics are pretty much done. As Dan & Che have been saying for the past few weeks, all they're really doing now is touching up areas & preparing to do bug testing. Since the E3 build, their main focus has been finishing those things many people pointed out "missing"; damage, driver animations, etc.
- 818
Only fanboys judge a game before they've actually played it 
KSaiyu
(Banned)
- 2,822
It shouldn't matter either way - the physics enable such unrealistic driving. I'm just saying, take a look at the top times in Forza 2 and then GT5
under pro physics.Delphic ReasonDefinitely not perfect. FM2's tire physics were not good at all. That's right, I said it. GT5
When it comes to consoles, I still think GT5
Exactly my feelings. I always knew Forza 2's traction modelling was terrible, which combined with billiard smooth tracks cut down on it's replayability but coming back to the two in preparation for F3's release makes you wonder how anyone can justify the grip feel in Forza 2.
For those bothered, the 02 RX-7 is in both games - take it out on Suzuka and tell me which feels most like a RWD car. My own car only puts out 120bhp and there is no way it won't brake into a slide when you full throttle out of a second gear corner, yet try this with the RX-7 in both games and see which will leave you facing the wrong way.
Like I said, there's a reason people are already setting the same times as GT2 cars around Le Mans in an stock R8.
- 9,589
- GTP_DelphicR
- Esoterik1
You're entire argument is based off fun, which is hugely subjective I might add. I wasn't referring to anything as subjective as "fun". You said the tire physics are not an important part of a "simulation" game, and that's just wrong, in my opinion.
I mean, just look at this statement:
Are you serious? It's only the backbone of a "simulation" game. Everything else is just tinsel to make the experience more palatable.
All the games you have listed previously are arcade games, which is not what anyone is talking about in this thread. In fact, I don't find PGR, NFS, or most other games you listed as "fun". I find iRacing, LFS, GTR2, GT Legends, GT3/GT4, and yes, Forza 2, fun.
Yes, they should offer varying degrees of entertainment, but the goal of a "simulation" game is to simulate. Forza in many ways has not done well in that department. Especially the tire physics. Most everything else I have no problem with (besides the aforementioned replay cameras
).
- 6,067
- Simcoeace
Although physics is a primary concern, there are a lot of factors besides physics involved in making a good racing game. I have enjoyed many different console games: PGR2, Forza1, GT4, Enthusia, GT5P, F1CE, FC etc. None of them is perfect, each has its own strengths & weaknesses.
For example: GT4 had way too simplified physics IMO, however, the superb modelling of the Nordeschliefe, complete with graffiti & bumps, made up for that & provided a great driving experience.
Enthusia had much more complex physics than GT4, particularly with regard to tire grip & weight transfer (which I believe remain superior to GT5P in many ways). However, Enthusia fell down on a lot of other fronts, including basic gameplay structure, sound & graphics.
Forza1 had damage & better AI, but was not as good as GT4 in the graphics department. Importantly, it also did not have support for a good wheel.
I hope both PD & Turn 10 come up with greatly improved products: we will all benefit if they do.
For example: GT4 had way too simplified physics IMO, however, the superb modelling of the Nordeschliefe, complete with graffiti & bumps, made up for that & provided a great driving experience.
Enthusia had much more complex physics than GT4, particularly with regard to tire grip & weight transfer (which I believe remain superior to GT5P in many ways). However, Enthusia fell down on a lot of other fronts, including basic gameplay structure, sound & graphics.
Forza1 had damage & better AI, but was not as good as GT4 in the graphics department. Importantly, it also did not have support for a good wheel.
I hope both PD & Turn 10 come up with greatly improved products: we will all benefit if they do.
i do not think this has been posted on this forum.
Now Forza 3, wow what a game, its so much better then I thought. The game is beautiful, everything just looks so much better in every area its a night and day difference. The physics are fantastic, the cars a heavy and you can feel the cars weight play a role in the braking and turning of the cars in all of the turns. The R8 was an absolute blast to drive and the le mans track is by far the best Forza track I have ever driven, by a long shot. I am truly done with forza 2, I really cant see myself playing it after forza 3. As scooty said I just wish I could drive all the cars on all the tracks, I wish I had forza 3 right now because it is incredible. I should say this also, the other 3 tracks in the demo are so much fun and are quite challenging as well. Another big time thing was the penalty time and grass in the game, the grass on the outer edge of the track is now very grippy you get wheels in there and its going to slow you done, much more realistic then forza 2. The penalty time is also much better, no longer can you get 3 quarters of your car inside the curb and get by with no penalty. You get your cars tired inside that curb and you become a bank for penalty time. The racing should be done on the track and unless you want to collect penalty time you gotta keep all wheels on the track. In the end forza 3 is leaps and bounds over forza 2 and will be an instant hit when it is released. I cant wait to see what other tracks, features and cars are in the game as I already know the core structure of the game is what I have always wanted in a racing game.
http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/995/995416p1.html
Now Forza 3, wow what a game, its so much better then I thought. The game is beautiful, everything just looks so much better in every area its a night and day difference. The physics are fantastic, the cars a heavy and you can feel the cars weight play a role in the braking and turning of the cars in all of the turns. The R8 was an absolute blast to drive and the le mans track is by far the best Forza track I have ever driven, by a long shot. I am truly done with forza 2, I really cant see myself playing it after forza 3. As scooty said I just wish I could drive all the cars on all the tracks, I wish I had forza 3 right now because it is incredible. I should say this also, the other 3 tracks in the demo are so much fun and are quite challenging as well. Another big time thing was the penalty time and grass in the game, the grass on the outer edge of the track is now very grippy you get wheels in there and its going to slow you done, much more realistic then forza 2. The penalty time is also much better, no longer can you get 3 quarters of your car inside the curb and get by with no penalty. You get your cars tired inside that curb and you become a bank for penalty time. The racing should be done on the track and unless you want to collect penalty time you gotta keep all wheels on the track. In the end forza 3 is leaps and bounds over forza 2 and will be an instant hit when it is released. I cant wait to see what other tracks, features and cars are in the game as I already know the core structure of the game is what I have always wanted in a racing game.
http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/995/995416p1.html
In real racing you often have zero wheels on the tarmac. Though I agree at least two wheels on the curbs is a good ground rule for simracing.
He is surely hyping that game. IGN and many international gaming sites is quite good with that though. Often get a feeling like they are bought so it´s a bit hard to trust them. Remember the gamespot affair...
He is surely hyping that game. IGN and many international gaming sites is quite good with that though. Often get a feeling like they are bought so it´s a bit hard to trust them. Remember the gamespot affair...
I liked the gameplay of le mans demonstration, looks good, just need to play it now! I don't like how in Forza you can't see the middle of the steering wheel from cockpit view as you can in GT5P, you miss all the manufacturer logos.
I can't get into the forza motorsport homepage anyone else struggling or is it my computer?...
I can't get into the forza motorsport homepage anyone else struggling or is it my computer?...
Bought!? The only thing I see going on is a site/publishers editors/writers, getting excited about all the new never before done stuff in FM3. You have the complete crash physics with roll over, the new HD upload and download of edited videos right off your 360, and much better graphics than any other racer before on the 360. I'm excited about those new features, why would a game reviewer/previewer not be excited also, unless they worked for a single system publication like PSM.
Now when it comes to GT5 I'm also excited as are many other game publications, except maybe OXM. Rally racing, Nascar, it looks better than any racing game to date. The only real issue I see coming up to it release is a lack of fan interaction and information from the developers. With FM series you get weekly updates, a considerable amount of info, new screens and vids, even sound byte of the cars, along with a vast community driven forum. The forum for GT is here, but the developer is missing.👎
I am talking in general. Forza 3 is an important game for turn10 and microsoft. Gaming sites like IGN, Gamespot are very careful about pleasing the big publishers. If they rant it´s always smaller developers that they can afford ranting on. It´s MS and Sony and the likes that pay gaming sites like IGN with their advertizing money and who knows what freebies they get.
Of course there may be hired shills in here too that actually get payed for marketing products pretending to be helpful forumites. I have no idea if it´s a common problem for computer software but been some at some audio forums that been caught in action.
Of course there may be hired shills in here too that actually get payed for marketing products pretending to be helpful forumites. I have no idea if it´s a common problem for computer software but been some at some audio forums that been caught in action.
- 20,145
- Australia
- VIPERGTS01
Well gamespot ragged on GT5P pretty hard, they even complained about how pointless the interior view was, then in the grid review praised them for having a interior view.
Only good they had to say about GT5P was the visuals (external view and replays). Didn't seem like they went out of the way to please Sony then.
- 12,825
Your point(s) is/are all over the place there. So let me help you out.
What makes racing games essentially fun for me, something I value more than anything, is the level of simulation.
Any concession towards "playability" has no place in a simulation race game.
It's people like you who open up the market for Midnight Club's, NFS:Underground's and all that stupid BS, and that's a bad thing. Developers who choose to create delicate, realistic racing games should be cherised.
I could go on about this for great lengths, but I'll leave with you the suggestion that comparisons made between EA type arcade games and Polyphony Digital games are extremely redundant.
- 1,163
- ijp420uk
- martinp1987 (it's my brothers)
Just so you all know, all of these tracks have just been confirmed as being on FM3:
Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca, USA
Mugello Autodromo Internazionale, Italy
Nürburgring Nordschleife, Germany
Road Atlanta, USA
Sebring International Raceway, USA
Silverstone, England
Suzuka Circuit, Japan
Tsukuba Circuit, Japan
Road America, USA
Twin Ring Montegi, Japan
Blue Valley Raceway, TBA
Camino Viejo de Montserrat, TBA
Ladera Test Track, TBA
Maple Valley, TBA
Brands Hatch, England
Monza, Italy
Knockhill, Scotland
Circuit de la Sarthe, France
Nürburgring GP, Germany
Limerock Park, USA
Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps, Belgium
Daytona International Speedway, USA
Virginia International Raceway, USA
Mount Panorama Circuit (Bathurst), Australia
Ebisu Circuit, Japan
Circuit de Monaco, Monaco
Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course, USA
Autódromo José Carlos Pace (Interlagos), Brazil
Mosport, Canada
Toronto Street Circuit, Canada
Irwindale Speedway, USA
Circuit Park Zandvoort, Netherlands
Autodromo Internacional de Curitiba, Brazil
Thruxton, England
Dubai Autodrome, United Arab Emirates
Watkins Glen, USA
Miller Motorsports Park, USA
Homestead-Miami Speedway, USA
New Jersey Motorsports Park, USA
Barber Motorsports Park, USA
Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Canada
Nikkō Circuit, Japan
Meihan Sports Land, Japan
Sportsland SUGO, Japan
Fuji Speedway, Japan
Autopolis, Japan
Okayama International Circuit, Japan
Englishtown Raceway, USA
Infineon Raceway, USA
Autodromo Enzo e Dino Ferrari (Imola), Italy
Masaryk circuit (Brno), Czech Republic
Circuit de Nevers Magny-Cours, France
Hungaroring, Hungary
Donington Park, England
Adelaide Street Circuit, Australia
Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach, USA
Circuit Paul Ricard, France
Phillip Island, Australia
New York, USA
Rio, Brazil
Alpine Ring, TBA
Tokyo Street Circuit, Japan
Original Test Track, TBA
Fujimi Kaido Down Hill/Hill Climb, Japan
Pacific Shipyards TBA
(mumbling) I hate the fact that the xbox 360 have this damn game
Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca, USA
Mugello Autodromo Internazionale, Italy
Nürburgring Nordschleife, Germany
Road Atlanta, USA
Sebring International Raceway, USA
Silverstone, England
Suzuka Circuit, Japan
Tsukuba Circuit, Japan
Road America, USA
Twin Ring Montegi, Japan
Blue Valley Raceway, TBA
Camino Viejo de Montserrat, TBA
Ladera Test Track, TBA
Maple Valley, TBA
Brands Hatch, England
Monza, Italy
Knockhill, Scotland
Circuit de la Sarthe, France
Nürburgring GP, Germany
Limerock Park, USA
Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps, Belgium
Daytona International Speedway, USA
Virginia International Raceway, USA
Mount Panorama Circuit (Bathurst), Australia
Ebisu Circuit, Japan
Circuit de Monaco, Monaco
Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course, USA
Autódromo José Carlos Pace (Interlagos), Brazil
Mosport, Canada
Toronto Street Circuit, Canada
Irwindale Speedway, USA
Circuit Park Zandvoort, Netherlands
Autodromo Internacional de Curitiba, Brazil
Thruxton, England
Dubai Autodrome, United Arab Emirates
Watkins Glen, USA
Miller Motorsports Park, USA
Homestead-Miami Speedway, USA
New Jersey Motorsports Park, USA
Barber Motorsports Park, USA
Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Canada
Nikkō Circuit, Japan
Meihan Sports Land, Japan
Sportsland SUGO, Japan
Fuji Speedway, Japan
Autopolis, Japan
Okayama International Circuit, Japan
Englishtown Raceway, USA
Infineon Raceway, USA
Autodromo Enzo e Dino Ferrari (Imola), Italy
Masaryk circuit (Brno), Czech Republic
Circuit de Nevers Magny-Cours, France
Hungaroring, Hungary
Donington Park, England
Adelaide Street Circuit, Australia
Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach, USA
Circuit Paul Ricard, France
Phillip Island, Australia
New York, USA
Rio, Brazil
Alpine Ring, TBA
Tokyo Street Circuit, Japan
Original Test Track, TBA
Fujimi Kaido Down Hill/Hill Climb, Japan
Pacific Shipyards TBA
(mumbling) I hate the fact that the xbox 360 have this damn game
McLaren
Premium
- 45,551
- Texas
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