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Forza Motorsport 4 Review: How about a little comparison?
- Thread starter Crispy
- 97 comments
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Tire wear is in the game as always. "Problem" is it's realistic so being that the tires don't wear out in 3 laps people think it's a problem. Again, I ask, I wonder if people really watch racing as every race I've watched I've NEVER seen cars pit and take tires in the same time frame that a typical online race lasts.
Nothing and everyone knows this but it sounds good when you say it
I would have liked they gave the option of artificially increasing the rate of wear so that people could have that option.
- 4,440
- zr1chris
- zr1chris
I agree.
I feel exactly the opposite. I played GT5 after about a week of FM4 and felt totally disconnected in GT5. Is it gripping? Is it not? I had a hard time telling the difference. I have zero problem with that in FM4. I can feel the edge of traction at every moment it's approached.
You forgot Infineon. I hated this track at first but I'm developing a liking for it. With GT5 getting Spa I would have to call the track list a tie.
The most important part of a sim is the physics and I think FM4 has better physics than GT5. Is it a sim like IRacing and other PC sims? I haven't played any but from what I have seen and heard it's most likely not, but when compared to other console games FM4 (with all aids off) is definitely a sim.
- 104
- dumponyou
- Vital1
I like your review but there are a couple of things that I can comment on.
I never got the feeling the cars are floaty in Forza, and to be honest, I never got that feeling in GT5 either. I think they just handle a tad bit differently. Besides, floaty to me equals the Dirt racing games.
99.9% of us will never play the real life tracks so we'll never know the difference. However, I wish T10 had done a better job with their made-up tracks. GT5 beats the crap out of them in that department. (Where the hell is the New York track T10?)
You should be able to map your controller in every game. No excuse in racing games where it is most important.
No circuit racing or endurance sort of sucks, but there are so many races right now in world tour that adding endurance and circuit racing would be such a grueling challenge. (Unless they added more tracks)
Forza beats GT5 in the extra-non driving stuff by a wide margin because of the livery alone.
Also, T10/Forza pretty much did everything they said they would do and brought most of what they promised to the the table. And they did it in two years. (I do have a weird feeling that they left some things out just add it later under the guise of "new" DLC
)GT5 had around 3 times as long and I don't think it shows.
Really, there's a lot for everyone in both games. I'm not mad at anyone for liking one above the other. I just prefer Forza.
- 825
- Charlotte, NC
- CosmicMS3
- I2valve
After playing FM4 for a bit, I didn't realize how much I missed night racing, weather effects and City circuits.
Still, for me each game has its moments of greatness. I have both, still play both, and like that the both offer something different.
Still, for me each game has its moments of greatness. I have both, still play both, and like that the both offer something different.
CAMAROBOY69
Premium
- 18,567
- Michigan
- CAMAROBOY69
That is an excellent review crispychicken49. I agree with pretty much every single thing you said. You had me a little confused when you said the GT5 graphics were better but I realized you were talking about when GT5 is at its best, which isnt very often due to standard cars being 80% of the game.
I noticed the audio is not on the list but that isnt even worth comparing. We already know F4 dominates in that category.
I noticed the audio is not on the list but that isnt even worth comparing. We already know F4 dominates in that category.
UKMikey
Premium
- 18,318
- Grea'er Laandan
- UKMikeyA
- UKMikeyA
I'd guess that it's easier to "fix" track layouts than driving feel (albeit via DLC). I too miss the city tracks and racing series.
I'm sorry I bought a wheel for that other gathering-dust game since I was convinced it would fix the lack of involvement I got with a controller compared to F3.
I'm sorry I bought a wheel for that other gathering-dust game since I was convinced it would fix the lack of involvement I got with a controller compared to F3.
ShylockHolmes
(Banned)
- 591
- ShylockHolmes
- ShylockHolmes
- 1,214
So you think it's realistic to burn my tires for a long period of time with little tire wear.
I put like this "(Kinect)" as it's only a guess and not being dogmatic about it. In case you didn't know in Gt5 you had to disable tire wear to use head tracking because of the console limited ram.Nothing and everyone knows this but it sounds good when you say it
In World Tour I can't change the difficulty while elsewhere "Pro", even though not very hard, is the highest it will go.
- 4,038
- United States
Tire wear is realistic wear in this game. Most races in the World Tour are not even long enough to wear the little tire nubs off the side.
If you want to see tire wear, you will have to wait until the later part of the tour with the longer races, or race online with 25 laps +.
If you want to see tire wear, you will have to wait until the later part of the tour with the longer races, or race online with 25 laps +.
- 1,214
I'm in the ninth season (Championship) and still the races are pretty short.
3 laps driving hard at Nurburgring GP and just a little over 1% tire wear.
- 6,293
- Canada
So I reread my blurb today, and felt I came across a bit whiny. I should clarify that I wasn't trying to be a negative Nancy. I'm thoroughly enoying the crap out of F4 so far. I wrote that late last night when I was half asleep, and realize I started rambling a bit (can ya tell lol?)
In reference to all the stuff I said about 'sim this, sim that', I should clarify a little. To me (just a personal opinion), a sim tries to recreate real life as accurately as possible...with all it's grime, grit, faded colours and tight corners (sry little joke). I realize using the word 'arcade' brings about negative conitations, which is not what I intended. For me though, GT offers more ability to recreate (i.e. Simulate) real world events.
@Zr1chris
-first off, I agree with you 100% when you say the physics are the most important part. I suppose it's more fair to say that both games have great physics, but they just feel different. After giving it more thought, I think I (and perhaps all of us) just need more seat time with Forza. I'd been playing GT so much that feeling the physics of the game became almost second nature. I'm hoping for my own sake that after a few months that floaty feeling will go away... 'floaty' was just the simplest way to verbalize the difference in feel of the two games.
-The one sensation I'm having trouble getting to grips with is the snap back oversteer in some of the more powerful RWD cars. Perhaps that can be fixed with tuning.
-You're right, I did kind of forget Infineon. It's funny, I feel very similar in regards to not liking it, but having it grow on me (hated it in GT4). I spent some time lapping it today, and my opinion of it is becoming more positive. I still think that a few of the corners (namely the esses going up the hill, and the long left handed coming down the hill) are a little off. They somehow seem just a little too easy. That being said, I still give GT the win in terms of tracks.
@Vital1
-I agree most of us will never see most of these tracks irl. For myself though, the very fact that I will never see them makes me want their representations to be as accurate as possible. To a certain extent, I would like to be able to lap these tracks in the game, and compare my times to real one (especially on the 'ring). Also, some of the nurfs, such as the double hairpins on the Indy road course are so blatantly obvious, and in that specific case, destroyed one o the signature sections of that track.
-Yes there are tons of events under the event list, but so many of them seem redundant, and are something most people will do once just to get the checkbox, never to return to again. For example, having Integra, Integra type R, Civic, Mugen, NSX, Honda/Acura 4-cylinder and Honda/Acura production events seems like a bit of overkill. I'd much rather have a few 5 to 10 race per series events for some of the GT cars. I think there is far more re-playability with something like that. I remember how much complaining there was about the length of some of the events in GT4. People said that the long events like (24 hr enduros and the F1 GT series) prevented them from achieving 100%. I think this may be part of the reason we didn't get enduros and lengthy series, but instead got 'do a few laps in an old camaro, now a few in an old mustang, now a few in a new camaro, now a few in a new mustang'
-Your last point about T10 delivering more of what it promised as opposed to talking a crap load of good game before the release and then failing to deliver on so many fronts is bang on.
In reference to all the stuff I said about 'sim this, sim that', I should clarify a little. To me (just a personal opinion), a sim tries to recreate real life as accurately as possible...with all it's grime, grit, faded colours and tight corners (sry little joke). I realize using the word 'arcade' brings about negative conitations, which is not what I intended. For me though, GT offers more ability to recreate (i.e. Simulate) real world events.
@Zr1chris
-first off, I agree with you 100% when you say the physics are the most important part. I suppose it's more fair to say that both games have great physics, but they just feel different. After giving it more thought, I think I (and perhaps all of us) just need more seat time with Forza. I'd been playing GT so much that feeling the physics of the game became almost second nature. I'm hoping for my own sake that after a few months that floaty feeling will go away... 'floaty' was just the simplest way to verbalize the difference in feel of the two games.
-The one sensation I'm having trouble getting to grips with is the snap back oversteer in some of the more powerful RWD cars. Perhaps that can be fixed with tuning.
-You're right, I did kind of forget Infineon. It's funny, I feel very similar in regards to not liking it, but having it grow on me (hated it in GT4). I spent some time lapping it today, and my opinion of it is becoming more positive. I still think that a few of the corners (namely the esses going up the hill, and the long left handed coming down the hill) are a little off. They somehow seem just a little too easy. That being said, I still give GT the win in terms of tracks.
@Vital1
-I agree most of us will never see most of these tracks irl. For myself though, the very fact that I will never see them makes me want their representations to be as accurate as possible. To a certain extent, I would like to be able to lap these tracks in the game, and compare my times to real one (especially on the 'ring). Also, some of the nurfs, such as the double hairpins on the Indy road course are so blatantly obvious, and in that specific case, destroyed one o the signature sections of that track.
-Yes there are tons of events under the event list, but so many of them seem redundant, and are something most people will do once just to get the checkbox, never to return to again. For example, having Integra, Integra type R, Civic, Mugen, NSX, Honda/Acura 4-cylinder and Honda/Acura production events seems like a bit of overkill. I'd much rather have a few 5 to 10 race per series events for some of the GT cars. I think there is far more re-playability with something like that. I remember how much complaining there was about the length of some of the events in GT4. People said that the long events like (24 hr enduros and the F1 GT series) prevented them from achieving 100%. I think this may be part of the reason we didn't get enduros and lengthy series, but instead got 'do a few laps in an old camaro, now a few in an old mustang, now a few in a new camaro, now a few in a new mustang'
-Your last point about T10 delivering more of what it promised as opposed to talking a crap load of good game before the release and then failing to deliver on so many fronts is bang on.
- 330
I wonder what does floaty means, cos this word pops up quite a lot when regarding other games (Shift 2, FM4 mostly)
Looking at the comparison video it reminds me how GT5 felt to me, it is very sharp but also very rigid, it feels like driving a car with very hard bumpstop, hard sidewall and very firm bushings, it makes road car feels as sharp as track prepped cars.
Maybe because of this perception that term floatly appears when discussing other games, while the fact is simply road cars shouldn't be that responsive or stiff, there's play in the suspension and softness in the tires, most of your input are dampened in a factory stock street car because of those reasons. But if you lower the tire profile and stiffen up the suspension the reaction quickens. The suzuka esses is a great place to test different settings and get a feel of the difference.
Looking at the comparison video it reminds me how GT5 felt to me, it is very sharp but also very rigid, it feels like driving a car with very hard bumpstop, hard sidewall and very firm bushings, it makes road car feels as sharp as track prepped cars.
Maybe because of this perception that term floatly appears when discussing other games, while the fact is simply road cars shouldn't be that responsive or stiff, there's play in the suspension and softness in the tires, most of your input are dampened in a factory stock street car because of those reasons. But if you lower the tire profile and stiffen up the suspension the reaction quickens. The suzuka esses is a great place to test different settings and get a feel of the difference.
- 1,732
- cuco33
Previous Forza games didn't have that much noticeable bumpiness when driving the cars so some reviewers or GT fans dubbed Forza as having a floating, magic carpet feeling to it. This unfortunately carried over through each iteration. What's funny is that many proGT folks actually still call FM4 a magic carpet simulator on some boards I'm on but it's clear as day that they've never played the game, ever.
Turn off simulation steering (set it to "normal"). I tried it the other night and found the only difference between the two is simulation steering is quicker and sharper. The game still assists you either way, and so far normal steering hasn't felt intrusive. The quicker response of simulation steering is nice at times, so I might use it for autocross and such.
A feeling of floatiness generally stems from a game's tire model, and the way it calculates kinetics. If a tire model offers an overly vague and/or gradual transition between grip and slip, and if a car appears to pivot around a central axis in a way independent of the paths the tires should trace along the pavement, a game will feel "floaty." Arcade racing games typically avoid this by tightening up the handling into a tightly sprung understeer-fest, with scripted drift input to swap the handling model for an equally tight drift version.
A proper simulator models the car's motion solely upon its interactions with the pavement (and aerodynamics, barriers, other cars, etc). It should essentially "drop" the car into a persistent virtual environment and let physics sort it all out on its own. From my own observation, GT5 doesn't seem to do this, and I don't think Forza 4 does either. The new tire model is excellent, and really adds an authentic feel to the game, but there's still some quirky stuff going on, particularly with oversteer.
You should try this, 'cause I've only tested it myself: if you turn on simulation steering, pull a burnout in a RWD car, and whip the steering from lock to lock at low speed, you'll get some magical yaw correction pulling you back and forth. If you do it right, it seems to completely negate the rear end's momentum. I did the test back-to-back with the E30 M3 at Tsukuba in FM4 and Enthusia, and Enthusia couldn't match the rapid changes in direction at all. It did what I would expect -- the quicker I spun the car into a slide, the more time and effort I needed to bring it back the other way (ie. newton's first law).
Back when Enthusia was released, its website included this diagram demonstrating the different ways to calculate acceleration, braking, and handling. The game had its own artificial limitations, for example the inability to lift wheels or roll your car, but you could really feel the difference at the core of the handling model:
This is interesting, as my own interpretation of GT5's handling is that it felt "wooden." And I don't mean it handled like a Morgan.
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thanks a lots pal, very detailed explanation indeed. lemme try that burnout test when I have the tine,
- 6,293
- Canada
Great info Wolfe, much appreciated 👍
Any chance you could elaborate on "the game still assist you either way"? I've been using sim steering to this point, and haven't felt as though the game has been assisting me. But if it is, even slightly, I'd like to know when and where, just so I'm more aware of what's going on (or to perhaps take advantage of it if an opportunity presents itself
)
I've started to notice that part of the issue I've been having with the oversteer may be due to the DS3 corrupting my trigger fingers lol. Because the response of R2/L2 was so poor in GT5 compared to the triggers in Forza (also possible my DS3's are getting a little worn out), I found that 'feathering' either the gas or brake in GT5 involved more of a rapid on/off motion as opposed to a nice slow, smooth squeeze or release (also applies to gas...
).
That being said, I do agree with you that there are some quirky characteristics to oversteering. I haven't really spent any time trying to do some serious drifting yet, but I have a feeling that the learning curve, or rather transition from GT5 curve, may be quite steep
Any chance you could elaborate on "the game still assist you either way"? I've been using sim steering to this point, and haven't felt as though the game has been assisting me. But if it is, even slightly, I'd like to know when and where, just so I'm more aware of what's going on (or to perhaps take advantage of it if an opportunity presents itself
)I've started to notice that part of the issue I've been having with the oversteer may be due to the DS3 corrupting my trigger fingers lol. Because the response of R2/L2 was so poor in GT5 compared to the triggers in Forza (also possible my DS3's are getting a little worn out), I found that 'feathering' either the gas or brake in GT5 involved more of a rapid on/off motion as opposed to a nice slow, smooth squeeze or release (also applies to gas...
). That being said, I do agree with you that there are some quirky characteristics to oversteering. I haven't really spent any time trying to do some serious drifting yet, but I have a feeling that the learning curve, or rather transition from GT5 curve, may be quite steep
Nice review OP, but I disagree in few things.
I tried F4 yesterday at my friends place (@Amar212), since my copy didn't arrive yet,and where i disagree mainly is physics. F4 physics (played with the wheel GT2 Fanatec) is not even comparable to gt5. WHY, because, instead of battling the car, I found myself battling the game's wheel assists (even on simulation), and this is the main problem with F4. Physics can't be judged when it's heavily assisted with assists (using the wheel). I truly hope that T10 will update this and then we can compare it properly, cause I am certainly sure that physics will be much better and much more sim like then what it's right now.
Graphics wise, GT5 still beats F4 by a mile, even standard cars have better reflection. Premiums in GT5, in cockpit view, have much better shaders, and all materials look more to life then in F4,. This is while driving a car, not in menus. I don't care about track looks, 3d trees, 3d spectators etc, or that some tracks are wider the their real life counterpart. I won't even compare the weather, night etc. cause that to me is a nice additions to GT5, and some day in Forza series.
First thing that I noticed is the low fps in mirrors, and they get lower if you spin (on purpose), and for someone using cockpit cam, it can be frustrated.
When there are more cars on track F4's IBL is almost nowhere to be seen. Autovista cars look really nice, but there are lots of jaggies, so 1m polyies isn't needed at all. Wheel rims look plastic, as is they aren't affected by IBL, except chrome wheel.
There are also lots of things I like in F4, Rivals mode, this is something that is really addictive and really nicely executed. I liked the world tour, but would prefer even harder AI. I like the car selection, from BMW to muscle cars. Forza series made me love the look of old american cars, and i appreciate them even more.
I was playing F4 without any assists, steering on simulation.
All of this is my personal opinion. I am not a gt5 fan, or F4. I am a fan of driving games (rfactor - more then several years in league racing, GTR, GTR2 etc.) and both GT5 and F4 gives me something that previously mentioned games don't.
I really hope that T10 will start making F5 from scratch, and build it around wheel not controller, even if it takes them 5 years.
And yes, i am really looking forward to playing F4, enjoying F4, and competing in F4 with you guys.
I tried F4 yesterday at my friends place (@Amar212), since my copy didn't arrive yet,and where i disagree mainly is physics. F4 physics (played with the wheel GT2 Fanatec) is not even comparable to gt5. WHY, because, instead of battling the car, I found myself battling the game's wheel assists (even on simulation), and this is the main problem with F4. Physics can't be judged when it's heavily assisted with assists (using the wheel). I truly hope that T10 will update this and then we can compare it properly, cause I am certainly sure that physics will be much better and much more sim like then what it's right now.
Graphics wise, GT5 still beats F4 by a mile, even standard cars have better reflection. Premiums in GT5, in cockpit view, have much better shaders, and all materials look more to life then in F4,. This is while driving a car, not in menus. I don't care about track looks, 3d trees, 3d spectators etc, or that some tracks are wider the their real life counterpart. I won't even compare the weather, night etc. cause that to me is a nice additions to GT5, and some day in Forza series.
First thing that I noticed is the low fps in mirrors, and they get lower if you spin (on purpose), and for someone using cockpit cam, it can be frustrated.
When there are more cars on track F4's IBL is almost nowhere to be seen. Autovista cars look really nice, but there are lots of jaggies, so 1m polyies isn't needed at all. Wheel rims look plastic, as is they aren't affected by IBL, except chrome wheel.
There are also lots of things I like in F4, Rivals mode, this is something that is really addictive and really nicely executed. I liked the world tour, but would prefer even harder AI. I like the car selection, from BMW to muscle cars. Forza series made me love the look of old american cars, and i appreciate them even more.
I was playing F4 without any assists, steering on simulation.
All of this is my personal opinion. I am not a gt5 fan, or F4. I am a fan of driving games (rfactor - more then several years in league racing, GTR, GTR2 etc.) and both GT5 and F4 gives me something that previously mentioned games don't.
I really hope that T10 will start making F5 from scratch, and build it around wheel not controller, even if it takes them 5 years.
And yes, i am really looking forward to playing F4, enjoying F4, and competing in F4 with you guys.
Thebeast2011
(Banned)
- 263
- 3476
I rate GT5 SPEC 2 and DLC 8.5/10
Forza 4 8.5/10
The same
Forza 4 8.5/10
The same
- 2,968
- Geneva
- Kimky
- Kimky
Any chance you could elaborate on "the game still assist you either way"? I've been using sim steering to this point, and haven't felt as though the game has been assisting me. But if it is, even slightly, I'd like to know when and where, just so I'm more aware of what's going on (or to perhaps take advantage of it if an opportunity presents itself
I assume he means that if you play with controller, even if you set it to sim, the game still have to assist you. Becasue you can't have all the rotation you have on a wheel in the single left analog stick on a pad. Or well you could have it however it would be totally undrivable because it would be far too much sensitive. Hope it makes sens.
After playing FM4 for a bit, I didn't realize how much I missed night racing, weather effects and City circuits.
Still, for me each game has its moments of greatness. I have both, still play both, and like that the both offer something different.[/QUOTE]
But thats just far too sensible!!!
Both games have pros and cons but bottom line for me the painting package in Forza kills it and the community also. I just love the feel of Forza as a whole. GT5 wasnt the game i expected with 80% of cars with no interior views (dont even bother telling me about the 'new' interior views on 2.0, like a sick joke).
But on balance you takes your choices in some cases you have both.
What happens though is this human instinct to pick one side, like the 'Mods and Rockers' on Brighton beach and then just fight and pick at the other 'one'.
I find its mainly the Playstation owner who is obsessed with believing they have the best console, best game mentality, they feel their life is only vindicated if they can beleive they have 'the best'. Its not helped by the GT5 hype machine making 12 year olds and middle aged blokes alike, beleive that if they can lap a race track on GT5 in a Ferrari faster than anyone that in real life they could do the same or become a racing driver just cause they can sit in their parents basement in their pants playing GT5.......
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Those who are troubled with the steering do you track a car in real life? Almost every street car out there has speed sensitive steering and it isn't a hard thing to adapt to. I modulate my steering angle from the feedback of the wheel and it works in all games.
ShylockHolmes
(Banned)
- 591
- ShylockHolmes
- ShylockHolmes
My comparison would be
FM4= Feels the closest to really driving and predictable handling on a console
GT5= Wobble, wobble, wobble
FM4= Feels the closest to really driving and predictable handling on a console
GT5= Wobble, wobble, wobble
Forza does a much better job of letting you use all the cars in your garage. In 2 weeks I feel like I've used more cars than I did in 10 months with GT.
Forza still has some issues with this too. I really wish they separated the R2 and R3 class into race and production cars, and the cars in the low range of the A and S class are very uncompetitive.
Forza still has some issues with this too. I really wish they separated the R2 and R3 class into race and production cars, and the cars in the low range of the A and S class are very uncompetitive.
- 4,038
- United States
- 4,038
- United States
- 62
- Portugal
I don't quite agree with this, yes the shaders in GT are a bit better, not miles ahead in my opinion of course.I dabble in 3d modelling and read a lot of articles on this kind of stuff and i think the thing here is not the shaders but more the lighting and the fact they both use different lighting settings make them almost impossible to compare on that area.Maybe in the same track with the same weather conditions.
F4 shaders aren't as good as GT5 on interiors but nothing very far from each other.Of course the shaders on the standard cars will be the same, they don't take more memory from using those shaders, they just lack polygons (a lot) have textured lights etc. The rims depend on some of them.I've seen some with weird shaders and others that look great, without being chrome, depends on their configuration and how soft they set the reflections on the shaders of the rims, i reckon they didn't use a single material to each rim, more like a general one that with some rim geometry might not work well.
All of this just to say that in my opinion, GT5 isn't miles ahead of F4, it has a slight advantage yes.But that's just my opinion of course.
- 4,440
- zr1chris
- zr1chris
What tires were you using? Stock?
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- Cambridge
- Moglet85
- Moglet
Standards have better reflections? I'm not seeing it myself. Your post is heavily biased too, you completely failed to mention the fact that around 80% of the cars in GT5 are low resolution without interior modelling. That's a HUGE factor in the graphics department IMO and if you're going to disagree with someone just because the premium cockpits look good, you can't just disregard a huge portion of the game!
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