Forza

[JAGUAR]

As was mentioned in the above interview, the GT series has pioneered the way for 'simulations' on consoles. If it was not for the GT series we would no be seeing the likes of Forza, Enthusia, RB Rally and others arriving.

With the increased power of the next gen consoles, car simulations will be even more realistic and, IMO, poplular.

The more sim games the better.

 

[GT Obsession]

"The more sim games the better."

This is true, but somehow I get angry when I think about how Microsoft built the XBOX to take away from the PS2 and now they are trying to steal the best driving sim away. I just think of them as thieves, which is why I will never buy anything Microsoft related besides Windows for the PC. This includes an XBOX.

 

[Dave A]

GT Obsession, how is Microsoft making a games console to take sales away from the PS2 like stealing, it's called buisness. Microsoft is a buisness, they need to make money, they enter markets where they believe there is money to be made and they do thei best to take over that market. If Microsoft are stealing from Sony, Sony stole everything from SEGA a long time ago, in which case I suggest you don't become a hypocrite and you never buy anything from Sony as well, including GT4.

 

[_aj]

Healthy competition is not just good for the business but for us too, it makes companies improve and constantly try new things and not get lazy by being the only one in the market. You think if MS had a decent OS competitor that their software would be released with all matter of security leaks and bugs, no they would up their game but because no-one else is really around right now MS is kinda like "we'll release a patch whenever".

GT and Forza will help each other rather than harm each other. It's gonna be a fun ride !!

 

[Dave A]

aj your right, competition is health, but only at upping the overall quality of the product, it doesn't benefit the companies, in the end theres usually one clear winner and the other is forced out resulting in a loss of buisness and brand name.

 

[Robin]

yeah.......competition is good......without it PD wouldn't have the incentive to make the GT series better.......we would still have poly box cars without some push to be the best car game in the market

 

[Dave A]

I think GT would always be improving maybe not quite as much bu it would still be improving more than other games, KY is an enthusiast and that changes things somewhat. Generally though competition is needed to keep the quality and keep everything improving.

 

[911_gt3_rs]

Without a decent Force Feedback wheel Forza just wont be on the same level as GT4. QUOTE]
I agree. The physics engine can be as realistic as it wants to be but without a realistic controller then overall realism will be undermimed.
Also i can see that competition is a good thing but do not like the way microsoft seem to abuse thier richness to buy exclusive things in order to CRIPPLE all competion.

 

[JaNsTa00001]

thats what i was saying in my first post. if Forza outsells GT4, then its GT4's fault, its all about the competition,whichever one is better would win. and since forza or gT4 arent out yet, why hate on Forza???

 

[Shen Yin]

So far I've not seen a single thing about Forza that bests GT. Even the damage that they've boasted about so many times is more faked and akin to an arcade racer; with simplistic body kits falling off and some scrape texture variations here n' there (though they DID say that it will have some impact on the gameplay).

Not one thing about it bests GT; not the visuals, framerate (30fps in replays? How lame is that?) or the gameplay. I'll still give it a chance, but right now even Enthusia gets more respect from me.

 

[Dave A]

Some of the tuning options beat GT3 by far, however we don't know what tuning options will be in GT4.

 

[Shen Yin]

Some of the tuning options beat GT3 by far, however we don't know what tuning options will be in GT4.

There're some things that I'm skeptical about. There was a recent report on IGN that Ferrari engine swaps were a goal to be made available in the final build. Now first off, unless the "other" car is a Ferrari, this is HIGHLY unrealistic. You obviously cannot swap a Ferrari engine (say, a 360 Spyder) in say.....a MX5 Miata. I've already been down this road with TXR3 and they've had engine swaps beforehand. What they DID do was make some no-name generic engines to swap so that "realism" was not an issue to note. Forza doesn't seem (so far) to be going down this route correctly and if they're challenging GT4, then every single little mistake that they make will be amplified 10-fold.

Secondly, body mods were also "spoken" about for GT4. Whether they're there or not isn't a big deal for me, but I DO know so far that they will be there in some shape or form (even if it harkens back to "Racing Modification" of GT2). If I wanted to play a "street racing" style game, then I'll go through Stree Racing Syndicate, not Gran Turismo.

 

[Dave A]

I've read that engine swapping between different cars is possible in the game, however only swaps that can be done in real life. I would assume there will be some generic engines to change as well in Forza. It's not just engines, you can change your whole suspension setup, brake setup and everything, not like GT where theres the sports suspension and racing suspension ect. But like I said we don't know how GT4 will be improved over past GT's in this regard.

 

[redhed17]

Shen Yin wrote;

So far I've not seen a single thing about Forza that bests GT. Even the damage that they've boasted about so many times is more faked and akin to an arcade racer; with simplistic body kits falling off and some scrape texture variations here n' there (though they DID say that it will have some impact on the gameplay).

From what I read and seen, there could be a number of improvements from Forza.

They seem to be doing something about the AI. The AI in GTP had no improvement as far as I could tell over GT3. Hopefully GT4 will be better, but if Forza can deliver the AI they are promising, I don't think GT would win that battle.

The car car damage will be more realistic(it'll actually exist), cars will actually leave rubber on track, there will be realistic tyre smoke, you can customise the cars. Even just being able to change your number different to another car, would be an improvement over the GT series so far. It irritates me that 2 cars have the same number in GT in a race, because that is such an easy problem to fix. Being able to swap engines and othe parts, within reason, could make for mind boggling combinations. It also makes inproving your car more realistic, because your changing real named parts, rather than levels of improvements as in GT.



The XBox live network is better established than Sony's, so that should be the better online experience. If your playing online, you want to look unique, which is something the Forza customisation system could deliver.


Whatever improvements and innovations Forza was to introduce, would force Polyphony to follow and try to better for GT5.


The thing is though, if they both sell to 50% of the people who own the respective consoles, GT4 would outsell Forza by millions.

 

[Dave A]

Forza has more cars per race as well doesn't it?

 

[Shen Yin]

Shen Yin wrote;


From what I read and seen, there could be a number of improvements from Forza.

They seem to be doing something about the AI. The AI in GTP had no improvement as far as I could tell over GT3. Hopefully GT4 will be better, but if Forza can deliver the AI they are promising, I don't think GT would win that battle.

Well, as you've said, we've not seen the AI for GT4 yet, only Prologue which is nowhere near the quality of 4 from all of the recent vids and pics we've see.

The car car damage will be more realistic(it'll actually exist), cars will actually leave rubber on track,

The car damage that's been shown is blatantly faked. In all of the vids available, the cars can slam into the wall at high speed and come out with only the basic bumps and bruises that every other game that has attempted the same thing before has done. Also, where have you seen this "rubber on the track" info?

there will be realistic tyre smoke, you can customise the cars.

You mean from the spinning Viper vid? Looks about the same as GT to me so far.

Even just being able to change your number different to another car, would be an improvement over the GT series so far. It irritates me that 2 cars have the same number in GT in a race, because that is such an easy problem to fix.

Fair enough

Being able to swap engines and othe parts, within reason, could make for mind boggling combinations. It also makes inproving your car more realistic, because your changing real named parts, rather than levels of improvements as in GT.

That's HIGHLY debateable at best, so I'll leave it alone.

The XBox live network is better established than Sony's, so that should be the better online experience. If your playing online, you want to look unique, which is something the Forza customisation system could deliver.

You're right about that, but BOTH games boast the same exact basic features from what I've seen. Not to mention, PD's game has the upper hand with the Flea Market options, much larger user base (which invites our own homebrew mods and upgrades). Plus, if you've played RSC2, you'll notice that only 4 cars can have collision detection online and if anymore are involved, then they are played as wireframes. This coincides with the fact of it being playable online in the first place at an attempted 60fps w/ voice chat.

This game is being done by the same teams that made both RSC2 and PGR2. You can draw your own conclusion there.

There IS a reason why PD only made voicechat available in the lobby section (that and it's annoying hearing people talking, yapping and bull****ing while you're trying to play).

Whatever improvements and innovations Forza was to introduce, would force Polyphony to follow and try to better for GT5.

There's not much here from what I'm seeing and most of them have been done already. Other than body mods, which as been "talked" about in GT4, everything else is either done poorly (damage models) or irrelevant altogether.

 

[Dave A]

Shen, the idea of real parts being changed in Forza IS better than the stages of tune in GT, thats not debatable, but like I keep sayng, we don't know what GT4 will be like yet. As for the online, PGR2 has no problems online like RSC2, that games online is below par with the rest of the X-Box live games, if you want to compare online use PGR2's because thats brilliant.

 

[Shen Yin]

Shen, the idea of real parts being changed in Forza IS better than the stages of tune in GT, thats not debatable, but like I keep sayng, we don't know what GT4 will be like yet. As for the online, PGR2 has no problems online like RSC2, that games online is below par with the rest of the X-Box live games, if you want to compare online use PGR2's because thats brilliant.

Okay, this is why I said that it may be debateable. First off, the concept of swapping engines boils down to several key components.

1- acceleration traits
2- high speed traits
3- hp boost traits

Now, if I swap engine A into a Civic, that comes from say........and Enzo, which is 660bhp, right? And I'm able to optimize it at will, as now my Civic runs with the Enzo's ability, what's the difference with that and just simply using a stage 3 Turbo upgrade package that boosts my bhp to 660 and I can manually go in and change up my gear ratios to match the exact amount of hp boost and accel of that aforementioned Enzo. Why do I need a Ferrari's or any other car's engine at all then? Now let's put it into more realistic terms: these cars can only be swapped with engines that are done in reality. Which means, NO Ferrari to Civic and vice-versa (this goes for all car engine comparisons available. Not just the 'Ferrari' note). So that completely skims the lists down to about, what..........2% ratios per vehicle?

Not much at all.

That's why I said that engine swaps in a game aren't very relevant if all they'll really do in the end is simply boost your speed and accel.

Now, as far as PGR2 is concerned. First off, that game ONLY RUNS AT 30fps and is a barebones arcade racer without any true realistic physics in the slightest; so automatically it is deleted from the conversation.

Why I use the RSC2 example is simply because the game contains much more technical code from the framerate, vehicular physics, environmental physics, weather conditions and everything else, while attempting to run online WITH voicechat (which severely bogs down bandwidth resources tremendously). If this is what was attempted, and this is considered an arcade rally title, imagine how complicated it will be to get a SIM up and running and supposedly with 8 people online with collision, decals, colors and combined physics.

Again I say....yeah.....right.

 

[Dave A]

One thing you can't do by adding a tubo is increas/decrease a cars displacment, you can't make boty engines the same, theres no way in the world you could make a 1.8 liter inline six perform like a 6 liter V12 for example. I mantioned PGR2 not because of it's physics model, but because of the way it performs when online, it's second to none, it's very very good.

Back to engine swaps, differnt engine have different dimensions and weigh different ammounts, so a smaller engine could be lighter, and positioned lower and further back into he engine bay, say you put a flat 6 in place of a V6, you could make your cars center of gravity lower because a flat engine isn't as tall as a vee and so on, there is far more to an engine that Bhp, you can't get the torque the same in an inline 4 as a V12, even if you did manage to get the Bhp the same.

 

[Shen Yin]

One thing you can't do by adding a tubo is increas/decrease a cars displacment, you can't make boty engines the same, theres no way in the world you could make a 1.8 liter inline six perform like a 6 liter V12 for example. I mantioned PGR2 not because of it's physics model, but because of the way it performs when online, it's second to none, it's very very good.

You do pose a strong poing with the engine comparisons/descriptions and there's no real argument there. At the same time, I seriously doubt that a V12 engine is going to even match the damn block of a vehicle that is specifically designed to house a V6 either. It can technically go both ways.

As far as the PGR2 subject: all I can say is the game is very, very average. I've played much better on the PSOne. Now, if we're talking about how it performs online, but of course it may run smooth (depending on your connections). The game only boasts a stock framerate of 30 and doesn't exactly push any real gameplay features to stress the performance either.

From what my prediction is: the engine swaps won't be that serious of a feature if all we're doing is switching engines to comparable vehicle builds. Obviously in street racing, certain engine blocks are "modified" to house powers like a V10 or a V12. However, these are dramatic "mods" (see: 'illegal') in the first place and obviously Forza isn't going that route, being a GT-type of game as well.

Back to engine swaps, differnt engine have different dimensions and weigh different ammounts, so a smaller engine could be lighter, and positioned lower and further back into he engine bay, say you put a flat 6 in place of a V6, you could make your cars center of gravity lower because a flat engine isn't as tall as a vee and so on, there is far more to an engine that Bhp, you can't get the torque the same in an inline 4 as a V12, even if you did manage to get the Bhp the same.

True, but now your tradeoff is a weaker engine in a bigger block/house. It's not really sensible either way. But see my aforementioned point on this post.

 

[redhed17]

First of all, taking a known engine and putting it in another car makes it more realistic. Would a Ferrari engine fit in a Civic engine bay? And if you managed to shoehorn it in, it wouldn't handle like a Ferrari. Which is I suppose Forza will allow you swap other components. Limiting what combination of parts you can add, would also make it more realistic. Almost every car can have 3 levels of components. If your using real parts, you may get more or less options for improvement. These would be based on real life. The GT levels seem to be based on arbitrary numbers. There is a certain point where upgrading wouldn't be possible.

Hopefully the different engine sizes Forza allow you to change will, will let the cars handle, not just from a power point on view, but also the weight disribution as well.


I believe the GT4 AI will be better than GTP, but GTP was no better than GT3. So there is a worry there. Whereas Forza are making bold claims for their AI, which if it works, sounds like it could be very good. I can't remember any claims from PD regarding GT4 AI.


Nobody can say what game will implement these options the best, until the game is finished.

 

[code_kev]

Mwa, some comedy things said here, stealing sonys business, man, I could say Sony stole segas business!!! But I'm not stupid, business is business, also all the graphics whores came out of their shells for this one, the motto for today is gameplay over graphics, and seeing as none of you have played the final version of either game, lets wait and see yeah? Hell, forza might be incredible for all your know, but back to graphics, I'm willing to sacrifice graphic quality if it means more cars on tracks, damage, skid marks, driver animations, better physics, better AI etc etc.

Lets just wait and see eh? Personally I view it as a good thing, about time GT got some real console competition (sega GT doesn't count lol).

 

[kinigitt]

It's rather funny to see a lot of people going from the old "graphics don't matter, its all about gameplay" mindset to "yeesh those Forza graphics are soooo cartoonish and crappy compared to gran turismo!". Can't people stick to a prescribed philosophy instead of flip-flopping around whenever it becomes convenient? Nobody likes to talk about Forza's gameplay because they don't know what it's like, for the most part.

Stop yammering and wait for the bloody game to come out before you write it off.

 

[Live For Speed]

Don't get me wrong but Forza does have potential and i may buy it since i own both consoles. BUT i hate it that Microsoft want to beat GT4 with Forza by using X-Box's power, sure X-Box is much more powerful than PS2, that is because it came out to years after. If the PS2 was just as powerful as the Box then IMO Forza wouldn't stand a chance against GT4, since PD would've had a lot more things to put into GT4 with the additional power, maybe GT4 would've even had a damage model and human like A.I.

Anyway GT4 is looking amazing on the PS2, now that the system is 4 years old? GT4 graphics wise can even be compared to Forza from what i have seen. I don't really know if Forza is pushing the Box to the limit, but what i know is that GT4 will still be the best racer out there with what PD managed to achieve with the PS2.

 

[code_kev]

kinigitt, I noticed that too and found it rather funny, one moment it's ALL about the games, then when the ps2 gets a graphical one up on the xbox, it's suddenly "AWWWW YEAHHH!!!! UNTAPPED POTENTIAL, xbox sucks!! etc etc etc". It's rather funny.

"BUT i hate it that Microsoft want to beat GT4 with Forza by using X-Box's power"

Some one please explain to me wtf this means?

 

[GT Obsession]

Don't get me wrong but Forza does have potential and i may buy it since i own both consoles. BUT i hate it that Microsoft want to beat GT4 with Forza by using X-Box's power, sure X-Box is much more powerful than PS2, that is because it came out to years after. If the PS2 was just as powerful as the Box then IMO Forza wouldn't stand a chance against GT4, since PD would've had a lot more things to put into GT4 with the additional power, maybe GT4 would've even had a damage model and human like A.I.

This is exactly what I was trying to say.

 

[kinigitt]

Don't get me wrong but Forza does have potential and i may buy it since i own both consoles. BUT i hate it that Microsoft want to beat GT4 with Forza by using X-Box's power, sure X-Box is much more powerful than PS2, that is because it came out to years after. If the PS2 was just as powerful as the Box then IMO Forza wouldn't stand a chance against GT4, since PD would've had a lot more things to put into GT4 with the additional power, maybe GT4 would've even had a damage model and human like A.I.

Anyway GT4 is looking amazing on the PS2, now that the system is 4 years old? GT4 graphics wise can even be compared to Forza from what i have seen. I don't really know if Forza is pushing the Box to the limit, but what i know is that GT4 will still be the best racer out there with what PD managed to achieve with the PS2.

Again, people using the TEH PS2 HAS NO POWER THEREFORE TECHNICALLY INFERIOR GAMES ARE ACTUALLY BETTER THAN MORE ADVANCED ONES BECAUSE THEY HAVE BETTER TOOLS AT THEIR DISPOSAL. Baloney. How is it PD can construct an intricate and no doubt ressource-heavy physics model with a system that lacks the juice to do so? Because it IS powerful enough, as long as developers know how to squeeze that juice out of it. Creativity, good engineering and innovation. So another game tries to innovate on the A.I. issue, a glaring problem with the GT series, and you put it down? I don't follow your logic. You guys are just basically whining that it isn't fair instead of embracing improvement.

 

[redhed17]

People say how little the power of the PS2 is, on paper, compared to the other consoles. But PD show what can be done when a company pushes what can be done with the machine. Hardly anyone else seems to get anywhere near to the quality PD get.

If XBox programmers can push the machine way past what PD can do with a less powerful machine, then good luck to them.

That is the best thing about consoles, you know any improvements are from good programming, and not from the PC game route of upping the specs to a faster graphics card. If PC programmers did as much work on there coding as PD did, imagine how PC games would look.

 

[9mm]

I wached Forza video and i am quite impressed, this is certinately going to be best racer for x-box. But still, i guess i would spend my money on DFP to use it with GT4, rather than buying an x-box console for this game.

 

[911_gt3_rs]

Reading this thread im not entirely sure which GT game people are comparing Forza with. For example when tuning was being discussed it all seemed to be based on facts from GT3 (an old game) with speculation about about what Forza has been hyped up to do. To me the tuning aspect of GT4 is a blank sheet, we know there will be a tuning village and a flea market but what do these contain? PD have never explained. Similarly people have no real fact on Forza's tuning system other that part swaps and body mods, actual part upgrades could easily be the same as GT3's level 1,2,3.

Away from the debate we all know that PD know how to push a console to its limits imagine what PD could do with a much more powerful xbox (heaven forbid ) or the Eventual PS3