Four Hours: The Nürburgring 4Hr Companion & Competition

[axletramp]

Finished another 4hr race in 1st with the CUSCO DUNLOP SUBARU IMPREZA on Sports Medium tyres (Tune above).
Here´s the first 1/3rd of the race

youtube clip

Nice run. Watching that I really wish I hadn't screwed up halfway through my EVO RM now - managed to snatch 2nd place from the jaws of victory!

Where did the S2000 GT1 finish at the end? I've found that if he clears the Z-tune then he gets considerably faster. If not it's easier to keep the Z-tune in 2nd spot.

 

[Dotini]

In my humble opinion, a very viable strategic approach to this race would involve using small, light, lower-powered cars with excellent fuel mileage and tire life. This approach enables a 3 lap stint on race soft or medium tires, with minimized pitstops taking on only 15 liters - no more than the same time it takes to change tires.

Autobacs Garaiya, Dome Zero, Renault Clio and Tommy Kaira ZZ-S '00 come to mind as possibles for this kind of strategy. From GT4 days, some cars such as the Pagani Zonda C12, Shelby Series I and certain Chevrolets were known to be extremely kind to tires. I'm sure other examples can be found.

Starting with a car with worn oil is also a good idea, I think, as HP and PP do not diminish during the race.

Additionally, I think the skill of tuning for improved tire wear can be brought to bear on the problem of beating the N4, and this technique many GT5'ers might want to polish.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

Edit: Another thought - Several cars that might be suitable for N4 have been somewhat crippled by lack of a 6-speed gearbox. This can be mitigated by re-spacing the ratios such that all five are suitable for use while lapping the circuit. The only downside to this is slow acceleration from a dead stop - so don't spin out!

 

[-raVer-]

Nice run. Watching that I really wish I hadn't screwed up halfway through my EVO RM now - managed to snatch 2nd place from the jaws of victory!

Where did the S2000 GT1 finish at the end? I've found that if he clears the Z-tune then he gets considerably faster. If not it's easier to keep the Z-tune in 2nd spot.

After I crossed the line for the 27th lap , the gap to the Z was 45+ seconds.
The Z entered the pits and drove throught it , since he crossed the line after the 4hr mark.
From there on , all cars were driving at 50 or so mph.
I guess the S2000 was around 20 secs behind the Z and the real margin of victory can´t be made out (that would be several minutes if they drove the whole track at 50 ).


raVer

 

[axletramp]

Testing my silver chrome Esprit V8 again now post-2.03. At 476PP (no engine tunes, just fully lightened, full trans and drivetrain) I can turn in some quick laps on RM and RH, certainly enough to win, but it's putting three solid laps together without a big spin sooner or later that's my problem. It's a little unstable for me, especially under braking, and I'm struggling with a good tune for the suspension. Just have to keep searching for a good tune.

 

[Dotini]

Testing my silver chrome Esprit V8 again now post-2.03. At 476PP (no engine tunes, just fully lightened, full trans and drivetrain) I can turn in some quick laps on RM and RH, certainly enough to win, but it's putting three solid laps together without a big spin sooner or later that's my problem. It's a little unstable for me, especially under braking, and I'm struggling with a good tune for the suspension. Just have to keep searching for a good tune.

The highly praised tuner Sukerkin has posted some great Esprit tunes for the 'ring in GT4. They may be located on the GTVault site. It was widely thought that PD crippled its handling. But on the other hand, Lotus supposedly designed in a bunch of rubbish rubber doughnuts in it's Elan/Europa inspired tuning fork frame. It's also hamstrung by its 5-speed box.

Anyway, put on some LSD with emphasis on decel, raise the ground clearance all around, move ballast forward, and check out how Sukerkin handled the spring and shock settings and brake balance. Best of luck - she's a pretty car.

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[axletramp]

Good advice. 👍 I had a rummage around the Tuning section and found this one by DaxCobra. Btw Dax if you're listen, thanks.

Works a treat, even when you don't up the power (my Esprit is only 355HP and 488PP). I raised the ride height and softened the shocks slightly and it's now perfect for the 'Ring.

As it goes though, I'm not going to run this next because I've found a 455PP car which is really competitive and fun to drive against a non-rabbit grid. I'll get to use the Esprit sooner or later though.

 

[hellnback]

Did this again with a absolutely stock racing Alfa 155, 538pp @ 0kms.

Didn't have the two rabbits (S2000 GT1 Turbo or the R8 LMS).

Started on RH's front and rear and did 4 laps on first stint followed by 3 lappers. About the 3rd or 4th stop I switched to RM on the rears (I don't know if RM front RS rear would squeak 3 laps).

Also I didn't pay too much attention to fuel-loads until mid-race, so probably overfueled a couple of times.

Best lap a 8:31.232 on final lap.

Won by 8mins 35sec, and missed a 28th lap by about 10-15secs, so it's more than possible to take the rabbits on and the different fuel strategy's of each would make it a intense race only at the last stop would it pan out... although I'd quicker on the second time around...

 

[SjefGielen]

I'm training for this event now, also looking for a good setup, I want to do this one in my BMW 135i, practiced on Sports medium and soft so far. I used the BMW allmost stock on the first endurance race and it was a breeze, not a huge win, exciting up until 3/4 of the race, but the car is so lovely to ride.

My laptimes so far:
Stock - chiptuned engine - sports medium: 10:34
Stock - chiptuned enging - sports softs: 10:02

So I'm a good minute above my target laptime.
A trip to the tuner resulted in a +-20% lighter Beemer and fitted with a fully modifiable suspension kit I got my laptime down to 9:41:665
Still not there but I think I lowered the car too much (-15mm) and stiffened the suspension too much (-7 -7 -6). The car is bouncing way too much in the corners now, and it's a bit too nervous in fast corners and I tend too loose control there.
I'm going too raise the body by 5 mm and soften the ride a bit.
I also set the camber to 0.8 and 1.2 (my default first test) so if softening and raising doesn't solve the problem there might be room for improvement in that area.

I'm going to try to get a grid without the rabbits so I'm looking for consistent 9:0x:xxx lap times, I don't think that's possible for me on sports tires so I think I'll have to test how durable racing hard tires hold up on this one. Maybe with a good suspension setup I can get 3-4 laps out of one set.

The story continues. I'm going to do some more training and testing tonight.

 

[iainn]

For my third run of this race I'm using the Toyota Altezza Touring Car



Oil Change

316 bhp
1000 kg
516 PP

RH Tyres

ABS = 1
Everthing else off

DFGT Wheel

Grid
BNR34 Skyline GTR
Gran Turismo Skyline GTR
400R
Amemiya FD3S RX-7
S2000 GT1
Corvette '60
Altezza Touring Car
Fairlady Z Z-tune
Skyline GTR S tune
Option Stream Z
Lancer Evo VI
G37

Lap 1 - 9.24.3
Up to 2nd at end of the GP course, stay about 10s back, but passed by 3 cars on Dottinger Hohe

2 – 9.10.8
Take back places before end of gp course. 17S back in 3nd by Dottinger again (slight off at Galgenkopf just before). Tyres holding up, should pass them later. Pass someone already in the pits at the end of the lap, don't think it was the leader.

3- 9.12.5
Uneventful, still 17s behind most of the lap, but pass him at start finish line as he's in the pits. Am going to try and make these tyres last 1 more lap and try 4 lap stints.

4- 9.17.5
20 secs ahead at start, down to10s by Dottinger! Pit 5 secs ahead, RH and 15 litres

5- 9.43.5
Start lap 20s behind in 2nd, claw back to 15 by Bergwerk, but slight touch on grass at Klostertal, puts me back to 24s behind and passed by the S2000. Try too hard and another mistake before Dottinger puts me 26s back at the start of the straight, where I'm soon passed by the Z-tune.

6- 9.09.4
Slightly smoother lap, but still 30s behind leaders and down to 4th! They've all pitted though.

7– 9.15.3
Start lap in 1st. Finish in 2nd, just passed by S2000 on Dottinger. 1 more lap then tyres.

8– 9.12.1
15 sec behind by Dottinger, losing time. Will 4 lap strategy work? Pit for RH and 16l

9– 9.32.3
Come out of pits in 3rd, 29s behind, get back to 19s by Dottinger, but there's someone right on my tail who passes me and I;m down to 4th at the end of the lap.

10- 9.04.8
Pass someone in the pits so up to 3rd! Get round and then pass 1st and 2nd in the pits at end of lap.

11- 9.14.3
Start in 1st, lead of 5 secs by end GP course. Passed by S2000 on Dottinger.


12– 9.16.1
Passed by Z-tune but we both pit (RH and 28l),

13– 9.41.4
He comes out just in front though. Get round without incident. Will go for 5 lap stint to see if possible.

14– 9.24.9
About 55s behind now! Silly mistake at Adenauer-Forst and on the grass, lose loads of time!

15– 9.16.3
Leader must have pitted as 45s behind at start of lap. End up 59s behind by Dottinger though! Don't think I can win now, even with longer stints and less stops.

16– 9.12.2
Lapped the Lancer Evo, first time I've lapped anyone in three goes at this event. 74s behind by Dottinger though! Will persevere to the end

17– 9.15.5
Leader must have pitted again as 45 sec behind, but this stretches to 60s by Dottinger. Pit for RH and 60 litres!

18– 10.00.5
Now 2 mins behind and been passed in the pits, down to 4th. next stop lap 22. Clock is at 2h48m at end lap 18 so 25 Lap race? Stop on lap 21 for last time then and hope to get 2nd I think.

19– 9.09.3
No mistakes!

20– 9.07.6
Not bad

21– 9.11.8
Pit in 28 litres. Over 2m30 behind leader now. Don't know how far ahead 2nd place is. Now looks like 26 lap race actually.

22– 9.53.2
Rubbish, even as out lap

23– 9.07.6
Being caught by 4th place man, don't think I can get away so hope he pits soon. Cross line with just over 25 mins to go.

24– 9.16.5

25– 9.28.8
Tyres going off now, 4th place pitted so a bit ahead now. But some grassy moments and a spin mean I'm not confident of holding him off for another lap.

26– 9.16.9
Managing to hold off 4th place guy so far but....... when I cross the line I'm actually 2nd behind the Z-tune with the S2000 in 3rd !


385,900 credits and 2,105,515 xp which takes me into lvl 38

The Toyota is down to 301 bhp and 508 pp

The moral of the story is use Soft tyres and a bit more power and top speed I think, as I'm not a good enough driver to post quick enough lap times with this car.

Cheers

 

[axletramp]

Here's my latest run in a car I actually tested this time. I ran the Spoon S2000 '00, technically a tuner - but only just - which comes at 448PP in stock trim from the recent OCD. Following a few test laps and a new oil change, she now sits at 455PP and 286HP. My tests were on RM and RH tyres which showed she'd do 4 and 5 laps respectively, but obviously lap times were affected. So I took the brave (and fun) choice of RS tyres and a 2 or 3 lap pit strategy plus giving me comparable lap times to the HPA FT565 and Z-tune. My only adjustments were to lower her slightly and raise the top speed to 174mph - this is going to be tight so I need to be prepared for some drafting.


The observant amongst you might notice my only upgrade - BBS spokes.

Car: Spoon S2000 '00
HP: 286
PP: 455
Mods: None (I think it comes with full trans as stock)
Top Speed Setting: 174mph
Tyres: RS
All aids off. ABS 1. DFGT wheel.

Grid:
1. HPA FT565 Twin Turbo Audi TT
2. RE Anemiya FD3S RX-7
3. Opera 350Z '04
4. HKS CT230R '08
5. Fairlady Z Z-tune (Z33) '03
6. Ruf CTR2 '96
7. Me
8. Skyline GT-R R-tune (R34)
9. Nismo 380RS Super Leggera
10. Gran Turismo 350Z RS
11. AEM S2000
12. Mine's BNR34 Skyline GT-R N1 base '06

Lap 1 - 9:09.xxx
Not a bad start up down to 10th and then up to 7th at the first corner. New RS rubber means I can overtake around the outside of a couple of corners of the GP section and I hit the final chicane in 5th, about 3 secs down on 1st (FT565). This car feels so good on RS tyres! Crept up to third through Adenauer Forst and constantly gained on 1st but dropped back through Kesselchen. Finished lap -8 secs in 3rd but only by drafting the first two (FT565 + CTR2) on main straight. Hit 169mph with draft - not too shabby.

Lap 2 - 9:06.xxx
Trying to stay smooth as I'm not sure how these soft tyres will hold up - this is hard as I need to be on it to keep up. Start lap with about 66% front and 75% rear. This means I'll have to run the fronts to the canvas to pull off a 3 stopper. Get passed by a Skyline and the HKS on the main straight but my extra grip means I'm back in 3rd at the end of the GP section about -8 secs down. It's a clean lap, but as I get to the final chicane my tyres are down to 33% front and not much better at the back. What the hell, I go for a 3rd lap.

Lap 3 - 9:23.xxx
Pit In. CTR2 pits and I'm just in visual range of the FT565. Amazingly I'm losing very little grip - up until about the Hohe Acht/Brünnchen section when I really start to feel it. But so is the FT565 as I can keep the gap at a steady 3.5 secs until the main straight where he pulls away. I have the smallest of tiny amounts of fronts left and less that 20% on the rears. This car's chassis must be amazing!

Lap 4 - 9:25.xxx
Pit Out. Phew, get those new tyres on NOW! FT565 pits as well but I've only used about 1/3 of a tank so no fuel for me. I beat him out and end up -14 secs down in 3rd as 2 cars carry on (HKS and 380RS I think.) No sign of the Z-tune yet, but he's on a 2 stopper and down in 7th.

Lap 5 - 9:06.xxx
I chase down the 2 cars in front of me and take the lead by Aremberg. Steady lap trying to watch the tyres. No draft on the straight this time means only 150mph. FT565, now in 2nd, is able to gain a good 5 seconds on me by the start/finish line. Lead: 7 seconds.

Lap 6 - 9:28.xx
Pit In. I pull out a few seconds at first then my lap of doom starts. FT565 is able to get past on the main straight. I try to draft as much as I can but end up -4 secs down at the end of the lap. Oh how the tables have turned since the pre-2.02 days - the AI are relatively consistent and I'm the one with the 3rd lap of doom(ish) now! I take on 15 litres to keep me topped up but without losing time.

Lap 7 - 9:32.xx
Pit Out. More close combat fighting and drafting. End lap in 3rd as cars are running different pit sequences. More concerned about where the FT565 and strangely absent Z-tune are.

Lap 8 - 9:06.xx
Cars pit and I take the lead 8 secs up on the FT565. Z-tune appears in 3rd as he must have hit some clear air now.

Lap 9 - 9:34.xx
Pit in. Same as before, FT565 catches me on the straight every time when I don't have an out-of-sequence car to draft. We both pit together again. Tyres on, no fuel this time.

Lap 10 - 9:32.xx
Pit Out. I exit in 1st about 8 secs up which I open up to 11 secs by Galgenkopf. I get a draft from a Mine's Skyline and this time hold the FT565 off. I cross the line +2 secs up. Z-tune is now ominously lurking in 3rd position.

Lap 11 - 9:05.xx
Keeping it clean - still no bad mistakes. Tbh, any mistake here is going to leave me a lot to do. I maintain slim of +2 secs.

Lap 12 - 9:34.xx
Pit In. Keeping a hungry FT565 behind you is hard with very worn tyres. I think I've held him up a bit as the 380RS has joined us. The both pass me on the main straight but we all pit. 15 litres of fuel and I exit +10 secs in first. I extend it to +14 during the lap - that' enough to keep me in front as we pit. 15 litres of fuel.

Lap 13 - 9:32.xx
Pit Out. The Opera 350Z and Z-tune have gone through. The Z-tune takes the Opera and, guess what, pulls out at 20 secs lead on me. I stay in 3rd.

Lap 14 - 9:06.xx
Quick and steady. Z-tune pulls another 5 secs on me, but I know he's going to pit up ahead. I take 1st as he does and the FT565 is the start/finish straight behind me. No movement from the Z-tune in the pits.

Lap 15 - 9:29.xx
Pit In. The last thing I need is that Z-tune near me so I push on. Looks like he's hit traffic as I keep an eye on him down in 5th. FT565 passes me on the straight and I finish -0.5 secs down. Z-tune now in 3rd. 15 litres of fuel.

Lap 16 - 9:31.xx
Pit Out. I exit the GP section +14 secs in the lead which I open up to +18 by Galgenkopf

Lap 17 - 9:04.xx
Fastest lap! Just so paranoid about that bloomin' Z-tune. Maintain +18 secs lead.

Lap 18 - 9:33.xx
Pit In. FT565, as always, closes the gap but I pit +2.8 secs up. 15 litres of fuel.

Lap 19 - 9:29.xx
Pit Out. Steady lap, steady gap: +13 secs.

Lap 20 - 9:08.xx
Oops, my first mistake at the final chicane loses me about 4-5 secs. Stay ahead by a whisker as the Z-tune exits pits into a strong 3rd position - he's been playing the waiting game.

Lap 21 - 9:27.xx
Pit In. Getting used to where I lose the grip on my 3rd lap, luckily it's as I approach the final sector and fast straights. FT565 appears to be holding up the Z-tune quite nicely as they've been glued together for most of the lap without swapping positions - that's fine by me! Z-tune takes the lead when the FT565 and myself pit. 10 litres of fuel.

Lap 22 - 9:30.xx
Pit Out. I chase the Z-tune who's +15 secs ahead. I don't do too bad and take the lead as he pits at the end of the lap. Lead +18 secs to FT565.

Lap 23 - 9:04.xx
That's another quick one, but good on the tyres. These tyres last much longer when I'm on my own rather than in traffic. Z-tune has jumped the FT565 during the pit stops and is -14 secs behind.

Lap 24 - 9:29.xx
Pit in. Come on! The Z-tune is faster than the FT565 was on it's in lap. He cuts my lead to +3.8 secs as we both pit. Bloody hell, I can't let this slip now. I look at the clock and take a gamble hoping we're only going to do 26 laps. So no fuel for me, I want to be as light as I can and keep those tyres good for the fight.

Lap 25 - 9:34.xx
Pit Out. I exit the pits +22 secs in the lead (Z-tune filled up?). I open the lead up to +24 secs but notice that the FT565 is back in second - must have happened during the stops. Small grassy moment at Galgenkopf luckily doesn't lose me much time.

Lap 26 - 9:11.xx
I cross the line with the clock at 3:56.20.xx, so this is my last lap. I'm +25 secs up by the end of the GP section and on good tyres, so all I have to do is keep it on the black stuff and I'm home. I take it easy on the final section and cross the line for a good win.

I cross the line to win at about 4:05.00.xxx with the FT565 +18 secs back and the Z-tune somewhere in 3rd.

Spoon S2000 '00 post race figures: 278HP & 447PP.

Conclusion:
I love this car, just love it. I thought my favourite low-end tuner was the Amuse R1, but this is just so full of character and easy to throw around that it made this a joy. The race was always quite tight, but this car never let me feel like I was never in contention - smooth, grippy and always under control. I was just absolutely amazed how well she behaved on almost totally worn out tyres. At times I was running on less than 15-20% rubber and keeping the FT565 at bay - brilliant. Consistency was key here and this car allowed me to do that. Go and get one and drive it NOW!

This was my lowest PP win to date, plus it was on RS tyres post-2.04. So I'm pretty chuffed with myself.

 

[hellnback]

First attempt after 2.04 update, with a absolutely stock racing S2000 LM, 501pp @ 0kms. Incidently the after race pp was 501 also, I guess it went up abit then fell to the same level?

All aids off as per always, ABS 1, G27 wheel.

Didn't have the two rabbits (S2000 GT1 Turbo or the R8 LMS). Have saved replay can list field if required, with placings.

Started on RM's front and RH's on rear and kept to a 3 lapper strategy. I think you could push this combo to 4 laps, would that be quicker? Dunno, I wouldn't want to bet on it. It'd be interesting if RS front & RM rear would do 3 laps.

Fuel was 29 for a three lap stint in the beginning, although on light load could get away with 28, maybe even as low as 27.

Best lap a 8:39.087 on lap 17.

Won by 4mins 50sec, and missed a 28th lap by about 2mins 50secs, so the rabbits are still able to do 28 laps it prolly won't keep with them unless the 4 lap strategy saves you that extra time or the RS-RM lets you make up 3mins times over the course of 27 quicker laps.

 

[axletramp]

Chances are you would only have saved yourself about a minute with a 4 stop strategy but that's not taking into account that fact that your 4th lap would probably be slower. For me a three lap sequence on grippier tyres works best, especially when you're running a lower PP car.

 

[HaylRayzor]

I ran the Spoon S2000 '00, ... Go and get one and drive it NOW!

Yeah, but you can't put a turbo on it...

I agree, Brilliant car. I remember reading a test of the Spoon S2000 a few years ago where it pulled 1.1 Gs on the skidpad.

All the Spoons are brilliant. I have 14. S2000 Race Cars, S2000 street cars, Civics, Integras, and Fit Race Cars.

The Amuse S2000 Street Version... Not so brilliant. Given how great the other Amuse cars are, you would expect the Amuse S2000 Street to be very similar to the Spoon S2000, but there is no comparison.

The other Amuse cars may be brilliant, but the Amuse S2000 Street Version is a twitchy mess that never feels settled, even in a straight line. Avoid.

 

[axletramp]

Noted and avoided. 👍

 

[Dotini]

Here's my latest run in a car I actually tested this time. I ran the Spoon S2000 '00...
...This was my lowest PP win to date, plus it was on RS tyres post-2.04. So I'm pretty chuffed with myself.

Congratulations on the excellent report on your latest run, axletramp. You found a great car and strategy, and set a personal best record!

I've just completed a new 428 PP run myself, in a new version of my Lotus Elise 111R, this time with rigidity added. My fastest lap was only 9:04.811, yet I won from a CTR2 by a minute and 20 seconds in a one-sided contest where I consolidated the lead on Lap 10 with a gap of 50 seconds! I can squeeze a few more points out of the Lotus, but I think I'll look into something more like what you've got, for a change.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[axletramp]

Cheers. 👍 Yep, I was happy with that run. It was probably my most consistent and error free run as well - it had to be otherwise I wouldn't have had a chance. A lot of that was down to the car though which was nice and accurate and easy to get get straight if a wheel strayed on to the grass, especially on worn tyres.

I've never run this with an Elise, tbh I just don't get on with them and MR in general. I think you can see by my previous runs I'm much more comfortable with FR and FF cars. Touch the grass or run wide in a FR and I know what's going on, MR and it all gets a little twitchy. I guess that's all down to practice, which reminds me...

 

[Dotini]

Post 2.05
Car: Lotus Elise 111R '04
HP: 192
PP: 425 <-- New Record Low for a Lotus Elise!!
Weight: 1049 kg
HP/tonne: 181.2
PL: 96%
Total time: 4 hours, two minutes and 44 seconds
Top Speed Setting: 169 mph
Actual top speed: 145 mph at Antoniusbuche, 150+ drafting.
SRF: OFF
Tires: RS
Pit Strategy: 3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3
Lineup #24 after console reset
Best Lap : 9:05.469
Margin of Victory : ~17 seconds over CTR2 and CT230R

This was an exhilarating race for me. After consolidating an initial lead on lap 12, I managed to lose it again on lap 22 through careless driving more than any problem with the car or strategy.

Before this race, I experimented with S2000's and RX-7's to see it they had the speed, tire wear and fuel economy to be a safe bet for a sub 430pp win, but came to the conclusion that the Elise was still best for me. Now with several races with it, I'm used to its moods. Also, I've recently gained fresh insights into suspension tuning refinements by studying the 111R setups of a wide variety of other tuners.

I feel there are still a few more points to be had with the Elise, so I will stick with her for awhile. For one thing, I have never even played with the gearing, so there may be something there. I recorded this one, so I could submit more details, or a full report, if anyone is interested.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[axletramp]

Excellent run. 👍 Thats a damn low PP level! Hopefully I'll be running again tomorrow in a car I don't believe I've seen run here. PP not as low as that, but I like 'em unusual and this ain't no Lotus. Report up as soon as I can.

 

[Dotini]

Excellent run. 👍 Thats a damn low PP level! Hopefully I'll be running again tomorrow in a car I don't believe I've seen run here. PP not as low as that, but I like 'em unusual and this ain't no Lotus. Report up as soon as I can.

Thanks for that recognition, axletramp, it's much appreciated.

The Elise 111R is theoretically capable of 420PP at minimum power and maximum weight (@96% PL, the minimum value preferred by our OP and N4 guru, Famine) which is my next goal. My two 111R's, one with rigidity reinforcement and one without, both have about 2K miles.

In GT4, we used to be able to run at 3x speed in B-spec to put full-throttle miles miles on the cars at the test track in order to wear them down to "black oil" and about 10% less HP. I find no similar feature in GT5, but does the DLC test track have this sort B-spec capability?

Anyone know?

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[-raVer-]

Thanks for that recognition, axletramp, it's much appreciated.

The Elise 111R is theoretically capable of 420PP at minimum power and maximum weight (@96% PL, the minimum value preferred by our OP and N4 guru, Famine) which is my next goal. My two 111R's, one with rigidity reinforcement and one without, both have about 2K miles.

In GT4, we used to be able to run at 3x speed in B-spec to put full-throttle miles miles on the cars at the test track in order to wear them down to "black oil" and about 10% less HP. I find no similar feature in GT5, but does the DLC test track have this sort B-spec capability?

Anyone know?

Respectfully,
Steve

In GT4 you only needed 9000 miles to get bottom HP , in GT5 you need at least 20-25k miles or 40-50 times the Indy 500 , which needs 100+ hours (depends on the car) to get it down.
You also need a automation for increased pace.


raVer

 

[axletramp]

For my first full run with a MR (I know I've been putting it off) I decided to avoid the Elises, which I don't get on with, and run something a little unusual with the help of some tuning. As I'd just picked up the MR2 GT-S '97 from the UCD, I looked at it and it just felt right. It's stock 246HP and 435PP weren't enough so I set about lightening her and gently tuning her (stock turbo) to around 300HP. I must have spent most of last Monday evening tuning her until I was happy and found that I could get near the right lap times and tyre wear level on RHs. The rear wing proved to be essential as without it, even set at only 10, the rear end misbehaved. I also added 80Kg of ballast as far forward as possible which also improves stability enormously. A quick 3 lap sequence looked the fastest option, so here we go 3... 2... 1... GO!




Car: MR2 GT-S '97
HP: 309
PP: 482
Mods: Fully lightened, full trans and all 'sports' induction and exhaust only. Rear wing set at 10. 80Kg ballast. Full list here.
Top Speed Setting: 174mph
Tyres: RH
All aids off. ABS 1. DFGT wheel.

Grid:
1. OPTION Stream Z '04
2. Mine's BNR34 Skyline GT-R V-spec N1 base '06
3. RE Anemiya FD3S RX-7
4. Lancer Evolution VI '00
5. Gran Turismo Skyline GT-R '01
6. Gran Turismo 350Z RS
7. Me
8. Ruf CTR2 '96
9. Stage II R32
10. Skyline GT-R S-tune (R32) '00
11. Carbon R (R34) '04
12. G37

Problem cars here are the Mine's Skyline and Ruf CTR2. I'll have to keep and eye on them.

Lap 1 - 9:13.xxx
I'm amazed as I only drop one place to the Ruf at the start. Late breaking, good tight line through the first apex and acceleration away leaves me third behind the RX-7 and Option Stream in first. The Ruf has a go to the hairpin (see first pic) but I out brake him and keep him behind me. I exit the GP section glued to the back of the RX-7. It's then a simple matter of sticking with the two in front and picking them off by Aremberg. I keep the pack at bay until the main straight were the Mine's Skyline fly's past. I'm hitting 156mph by Antoniusbuche. Finish the lap -4 secs down in 2nd.

Lap 2 - 9:24.xxx
I maintain the gap to the Mine's, matching him at every sector until, WHOA! too much kerb at the entry to Adenauer Forst sees me kissing the barrier on the right and slamming backwards into the opposite bank. I lose about 15 seconds and have to chase the Ruf who's back end looks a bit wayward already. End lap -20 secs in 2nd after the Ruf pits.

Lap 3 - 9:18.xxx
Pit In. I out brake myself into the first bend and lose 5 secs trying to avoid the gravel. Slowly crawl back time on the Mine's and now he's in view. I get to within 20 seconds of him then lose that on the straight. I'm -25 secs behind in 2nd as I pit and see the Mine's is still there. As I've only used about 1/3 of a tank I don't take fuel and slip on some new RHs - fronts @ 33%, rears @ 40%. Ruf is now out of sequence back in the pack.

Lap 4 - 9:23.xxx
Pit Out. I watch the Mine's leave the pits and I follow -10 secs behind which I whittle down to virtually nothing by Bergwerk. He pulls away and I re-catch him before the main straight. I get a decent tow, but it's not enough and I end the lap -3 secs down.

Lap 5 - 9:01.xxx
A good lap which annoyingly is matched by the Mine's. The AI definitely run quicker when they're ahead. I am slightly closer though and finished the lap only -2 secs down.

Lap 6 - 9:11.xx
Pit In. Another flying lap, this time on worn tyres. I'm still stuck behind the Mine's but inches closer again and I follow him into the pits -1.2 secs behind. I take on 15 litres of fuel and new tyres.

Lap 7 - 9:28.xx
Pit Out. I was much closer to him this time so I pull out +17 secs ahead. I have a couple of small offs but keep the gap at +17 secs at the end.

Lap 8 - 9:04.xx
Decent lap but I only manage to increase my lead by 1 seconds to +18.

Lap 9 - 9:25.xx
Pit in. Another big spin at the entry to Adenauer Forst, again! This kills my tyres and I end the lap only +4 secs ahead. 15 litres of fuel and new tyres.

Lap 10 - 9:32.xx
Pit Out. I exit the pits +15 secs in the lead, but this time from the Ruf who's slowly bringing himself into contention. I then have another shocker at the entry to Adenauer Forst (WTF!) and end the lap +5 secs ahead as the Ruf pits.

Lap 11 - 9:15.xx
Another messy lap - get a grip AT, this isn't going well - leaves me still only +5 secs in the lead, and that Ruf is fast! Looks like he's dropping the Mine's and wants my blood!

Lap 12 - 9:15.xx
Pit In. Good clean lap but the Ruf cuts my lead from +8 secs to only +1.2 as we both pit. I take only 10 litres and new tyres.

Lap 13 - 9:34.xx
Pit Out. I exit +16 secs ahead and the Ruf exits into 2nd as the Mine's is too far back now (although I can still see him on the map). I have another small off at Adenauer Forst (someone's having a laugh now) and end the lap +8 secs ahead.

Lap 14 - 9:03.xx
Good lap but the Ruf is only -6 secs behind me as he pits. I carry on - gotta push to keep him out of my tow.

Lap 15 - 9:18.xx
Pit In. OK lap with only a small off, but I've hurt my tyres and have to drive defensively. I can't afford another off at Adenauer Bloody Forst! 15 litres and tyres. End lap +15 secs ahead of the Mine's. Looks like the Ruf and Mine's are having a private little battle following the last pit stops. Fine by me!

Lap 16 - 9:25.xx
Pit Out. OK lap, I just can't afford to spin or go off otherwise that Ruf will have me. +12 secs ahead as the Ruf pits.

Lap 17 - 9:00.xx
Boom! Fastest lap of the race - so near to breaking into the 8:00's. +22 secs to the Mine's in 2nd.

Lap 18 - 9:17.xx
Pit In. This is better. +24 secs to the Ruf. 15 litres and tyres.

Lap 19 - 9:28.xx
Pit Out. Small of through Aremberg but I end the lap +42 secs to the Ruf.

Lap 20 - 9:02.xx
Another fast one but the Ruf is quicker and my lead is down to +39 secs.

Lap 21 - 9:19.xx
Pit In. Another steady lap which leaves me +46 secs ahead from the Mine's after the Ruf pits. Starting to relax now as things are looking good. The Mine's and Ruf keep see-sawing and battling behind me. 15 litres and new tyres.

Lap 22 - 9:38.xx
Pit Out. Whoops, spoke too soon. I lose 10 secs by facing the wrong way at Metzgesfeld and watch my tyres go bright red as I try and hold it. Poo. I gather myself and finish lap +38 secs to the Ruf.

Lap 23 - 9:04.xx
Nice clean and quick lap. I open the gap to +41 secs.

Lap 24 - 9:18.xx
Pit in. Last pit stop so I take only take on 10 litres to keep me light. New tyres.

Lap 25 - 9:26.xx
Pit Out. Keep it clean and maintain that gap. +53 secs ahead of the Ruf after the pits.

Lap 26 - 9:22.xx
Cross the line with 3 hours 53 on the clock, so this is the last lap. I took this lap very carefully and crossed the line +1:04 minutes ahead of the Ruf. Unfortunately I lost the replay (that's another story) so haven't got the exact finish time, but it must have been around 4:02:30:xx.

MR2 GT-S finished race on 301HP and 478PP.

Conclusion:
Well I did it. I took the little MR2 and turned (tuned?) it into a giant killer. It wasn't my most enjoyable run as although she does grip and go well, I was never as comfortable with her as with the S2000's. What is it about me and MR cars?! And what is it about bloody Adenauer Forst? I must have gone off at the entry more times in this one race than I've ever done to date - and I've gone through there a lot! I don't know if it was me, the car or a combination of both. Anyway, at least it made the middle section of the race more exciting!

If anyone wants my tune for this car, I'll post it. It is worth it for a laugh and you can mix it with cars twice the power if you're brave.

 

[Dotini]

axletramp, congratulations on your race. I consider it very aesthetically pleasing to run the aging yet graceful MR2 against the tuner cars. 👍

I'm curious about your mishandling at Adenaur Forst. I'd like to know exactly where and how you go off, and what your suspension and LSD setup is. It is essential to diagnose one of the following:
1) understeer on lift-off
2) oversteer on lift-off
3) understeer on throttle
4) oversteer on throttle

And it would be even better to break down the exact problem phase of cornering into one of the following:
Phase 1 entry: Increasing braking + increasing steering
Phase 2 entry: Decreasing braking + increasing steering
Phase 3A entry: Increasing steering + constant throttle
Phase 3B exit: Decreasing steering + constant throttle
Phase 4 exit: Decreasing steering + increasing throttle.
(note: Not all corners have all phases)

Knowing these and your settings, we can probably dial out your handling issue. I enjoy working with MR cars, and hope to run one of my MR2's, so I would be delighted to help fix yours to make it better for you.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[axletramp]

Wow, that's hugely technical for a problem that is most likely going to turn out to be me just coming in too hot and taking too much kerb. It is curious in that it was so regular and the fact that the car was reasonably well behaved for the rest of the lap. Here's a quick map to better explain what was happening:



My issue is at the first left hander at the top of the hill from Fuchsröhre (Foxhole) - basically following the line between the brown 6 and orange 4 on the map. My usual approach, which has worked quite well to date, is too take the right hand line up the hill, dab the brake before the turn and quite aggressively throw the inside wheels of the car over the kerb at the apex and try and stay as far left and straight as I can for the next right hander. However, that was in FR and FF cars which seemed to enjoy that treatment. The MR2 wasn't as composed as it landed and the rear end would step out onto the grass and the inevitable grind along the barrier usually ending stationary somewhere to the left of the orange 4.

It's something like: full throttle > off throttle + quick, sharp brake > turn to apex + 1/4 throttle > push up to full throttle as she straightens. It's at the final point that she would drift right and the back end would touch the grass.

I tried various different lines which were either too wide and I understeered onto the grass in the same place, or too tight and I took too much kerb leaving me airborne. Eventually I just learnt to back off and take her through there gently, which paid off in the second half of the run but was annoyingly slow especially when defending a position.

I'll have to check the suspension settings on my PS3 later and post them back here. As I said before, this was pretty much the only place this happened so it may just have been the axletramp/MR2 combination not working at that bend.

edit: This video made me feel slightly better even though it's at the second left hander.

 

[Dotini]

I tried various different lines which were either too wide and I understeered onto the grass in the same place, or too tight and I took too much kerb leaving me airborne.

Until I get a chance to try your setup, I'm going to risk a preliminary analysis, and guess that you occasionally lose the rear end after launching off the kerb and the rear end fails to hold when she comes down. My Elise gets small air there under all 4, even in B-spec, without much of an issue.

Typical nostrums for this problem, considered apart from what's going on elsewhere around the course, might include one or more of the following:
1) Easier onto the loud pedal <-- But you know this!
2) More ride height
3) Less rear shock compression
4) Less rear spring rate
5) Less rear stabilizer

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[Apmaddock]

That video made me wish for realistic rollovers in GT. . . someday. . .

Bad place to be a Beetle. I wonder how many windshields a person could make out of the glass that's been swept into the dirt, there.

 

[Morgoth_666]

That video made me wish for realistic rollovers in GT. . . someday. . .

Bad place to be a Beetle. I wonder how many windshields a person could make out of the glass that's been swept into the dirt, there.

My favorite quote from GT5 is there. I'm probably butchering it, but "get it wrong here and you can easily be lost in the woods for quite some time."

 

[axletramp]

Until I get a chance to try your setup, I'm going to risk a preliminary analysis, and guess that you occasionally lose the rear end after launching off the kerb and the rear end fails to hold when she comes down. My Elise gets small air there under all 4, even in B-spec, without much of an issue.

Here are my settings as they currently stand. They were based on a MKI MR2 setup I found via Google and then adjusted for my own tastes:



Tbh, these settings are generally very good, it's just the high kerbs it doesn't like. I mean, it still beat a field of 500-700Hp tuners by over a minute.

I ran some tests last night by running a few different MR cars to see if there was any consistency. I had no such problems with any of them apart from the MR2 GT-S - phew, at least it's not all down to my driving. In fact a couple of them (Elise Type 72 and Garaiya) will take as much aggression and kerb as you can throw at them and they'll still make it. Hope this helps.

edit: For some reason the top speed is listed in KPH whereas I work and set up in MPH. (280KPH = 174MPH)

 

[Dotini]

Here are my settings as they currently stand.
Tbh, these settings are generally very good, it's just the high kerbs it doesn't like.

Thanks for posting your setup, axletramp. I applied almost identical settings to my (only) MR2 GT-S '97, the major difference being that I omitted rigidity improvement. I have found that this feature usually does not improve a car with less than already near-perfect handling, and can cause added instability on bumpy surfaces. If you have another '97 MR2, I suggest you try the same setup but without the rigidity addition. Another thing I noticed was added ballast to the front, altering the weight balance more toward 50/50. Did you do this for improved tire wear, or for other reasons? Also, I have to ask about any Traction Control you may be using? Although your car has been tuned to strongly induce understeer, enthusiastic application of the throttle will spin the rear tires and bring the rear end around in a hurry.

I tried your setup in practice sessions at Deep Forest and at Nurburgring V for a number of laps. In general I found it very soft and compliant over the kerbs - really too much so for me. I did not experience the same loss of the rear end at the Adenaur Forst left that you noted, even though I got the inside wheels crazy high in the air coming off the kerb! Perhaps this could be put down to the rigidity issue, but I don't know.

I made the following rather small changes and found big chunks of time for my driving style. I think understeer is mitigated and the tires spend more time on the ground. I tried TC 0 up to TC 5. It didn't totally solve tire spin, but perhaps tire wear would be improved under race conditions. I tried no other aids.

Ride height: -10 /-12
Springs: 6.5 / 6.0
Extension: 5 / 5
Compression: 4 / 3
Stabilizers: 5 / 3

All other setting I left alone. I hope this helps you, even if only a little bit.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[axletramp]

I use ballast to improve overall balance plus stability under braking. I find this works well for me. I don't use any TC unless the car is really prone to wheel spin. Tbh I can't remember the last time I used it.

I think I mentioned a few pages back that I'm far more comfortable with cars that tend towards understeer and I found the balance between turn in and rear traction fine for my driving style.

When I get a chance I'll give your settings a go. In the meantime I've been testing a couple of new cars, one a low PP to run against a similar field to the above and one at a higher PP to run against the Audi LMS and GT1 Turbo.

 

[HaylRayzor]

I've never run this with an Elise, tbh I just don't get on with them and MR in general. I think you can see by my previous runs I'm much more comfortable with FR and FF cars.

I was also more comfortable in FR cars. That is, until I spent enough time in the 111R to see the pattern in it's "twitchy" nature. I began to steer with the throttle as much as the wheel and it all fell into place.

I used to consider the Elise practically undrivable, but now I'm a great fan.