Four Hours: The Nürburgring 4Hr Companion & Competition

[daan]

I usually pause and take notes but, as I have the ability to make videos, I always like to have a saved replay so I can video any exciting moments.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Hey I wasn't aware of this I simply thought the endurance races had no replay available. So, (@daan) if I understand correctly the game can save and reproduce a very long replay if the race is never suspended? Does this apply to all enduros, including the 24 hour ones?

 

[W3H5]

There is a cut off limit to the length of a replay but I know for a fact I've recorded the whole 4h of 'Ring before.

 

[HaylRayzor]

There is a cut off limit to the length of a replay but I know for a fact I've recorded the whole 4h of 'Ring before.

I have several N4 race replays saved. I also know the whole 9 hours of the tSukuba race are recorded, because I have watched bits of the replay of Bob's races there.

I wasn't aware that you lose the replay if you suspend. But then, I've never driven an enduro longer than the N4, and I don't suspend. I pause if necessary.

 

[HaylRayzor]

In 2.23: * An option for tire wearing in Pit Strategy (B-spec).

Might the AI also gain the ability to stop BEFORE their tires are completely gone? The mind boggles at the possibility...

Could we see the LMS and GT1 Turbo pitting on lap 2 for tires instead of running the "suicide" lap 3? That would change the entire complexion of the race.

 

[bonobo4]

No more spinning Yellowbirds? Yellowbirds pitting EVERY lap?

 

[HaylRayzor]

No more spinning Yellowbirds? Yellowbirds pitting EVERY lap?

I thought about that too. If he pitted every lap the Yellowbird would be good competition. Although I've seen him spin on his first lap with good tires.

This change (if it happens) would also make the N24 a more interesting race.

 

[bonobo4]

I still think the N24 would be MUCH better with premium racers like in real life, or DTMs.

 

[axletramp]

A quick report of a run I cancelled as I was expecting it to be a much closer race. I'll leave it here as a record for anyone wanting to run this car.

Car: Amuse S2000 R1 '04
HP: 272
PP: 475
Mods: None
Top Speed Setting: 168mph
Tyres: RH
All aids off. ABS 1. DFGT wheel.

Grid:
1. BNR 34 SKYLINE GT-R V-spec N1
2. FT565 twin turbo Audi TT
3. S2000 GT1 '04
4. 400R
5. Stage II R32
6. CT230R '08
7. Me
8. Skyline GT-R R-tune (R34) '99
9. Fairlady Z Z-tune (Z33) '03
10. BNR 34 SKYLINE GT-R N1'06
11. Gran Turismo Skyline GT-R '01
12. Nismo 380RS Super Leggera

Same grid as my Trial Celica run which means no GT1 Turbo or R8 LMS - good, make it a close race then. I chose the Amuse R1 as I like the idea of taking on one of it's bigger brothers - the GT1 - wheel to wheel.

Lap 1 - 9:13.264
Dropped to 11th down the start/finish straight but up to 7th by the exit of the first corner. Picked off everyone up to 2nd place, but by the straight at Hatzenbachbogen it was clear the GT1 and FT565 were much faster than the rest of the field. As we left the GP circuit I was hanging on to their tails 3 secs down. Crept up to them through Hocheichen to Flugplatz and as they got in each others way at Aremberg I took my chance and went around the outside of both of them. They both kept me very honest and I had to keep on my toes through the faster sections - Berwerk to Klostertal. Opened up a small gap but both came blasting through on the main straight just before the second gantry. No point in fighting them - if I'd been touched or lost it I would have ended up losing 20 seconds. Crossed the line in 3rd place 3 secs behind of the GT1 in first.

Lap 2 - 9:05.xxx
Needed to push to stay with the GT1 and FT565. What I gained through the turns I lost on the quicker sections. Managed to hold my own until the Hohe Acht to Pfugplatz section and took the lead at Kleines-Karussel as the were once again fighting each other. This time they were further back along the straight and I held the lead as I crossed the line 0.5 secs ahead of the GT1.

Lap 3 - 9:08.xxx
Managing to stay clean and accurate without making any mistakes. Tyres are going to last 4 laps so keep up the pace. I open the gap to 6 secs at the end of the lap.

Lap 4 - 9:14.xxx
Pit In. Front tyres are OK but I want maximum grip for maximum lap times so I pit. Rears holding up better. The GT1 and FT565 don't appear to be suffering with low grip and are a constant presence. Still manage to pull out another 6 seconds on that lap and pit 12 secs ahead of the GT1. GT1 and FT565 pit as well. I've only used 1/3 of a tank so I take on some new tyres and no fuel.

Lap 5 - 9:24.xxx
Pit out - Leave the pits in 3rd as a couple of cars go for 5 laps (can't remember which one's they were, but I think one was the Mine's Skyline). Take the lead easily by the exit of the GP circuit.

Lap 6 - 9:01.xxx
Fastest lap of this run which I'm sure I would have beaten later on with low fuel. Staying accurate with no mistakes rather that full on flat out reaps rewards on this circuit. Once the rhythm is up the fast laps will come. Lead up to 37 secs as the rest of the field pit.

Lap 7 - 9:07.xxx
A scrappy lap but at least I didn't lose it. 43 sec lead.

Lap 8 - 9:16.xxx
Pit In. Changed the RH's and took on 20 litres of fuel. Clock indicated I was 57 secs ahead so I decided to cancel the race.

Conclusion:
I decided to stop as I would have ended up at least 4 mins ahead by the end. I was fully expecting this to be a much closer race and was a little disappointed the GT1 wasn't in my mirrors more. I would consider running this on sports tyres or throwing in some ballast to make it more competitive.

The Amuse R1 is a lovely drive. It feels more like a touring car than tuner street car and is an absolute delight to throw about. Very neutral with a precise nose and planted rear end - no need for any traction control, just make sure all the aids are off and enjoy. 148mph top end doesn't matter when you have this much confidence through the turns.

Additional Comments:
I then tested the BMW Concept series 1 with no mods and RM tyres. 1500kg sounded a lot but this one is surprisingly nimble, although the tyres only lasted 3 laps. By the first pit stop (lap 3) I was in 5th place holding the gap to first at 50 secs (I had a bad first lap) so I may well stick a full gearbox on it and have another crack. At 452PP this would be my lowest PP to date.

 

[HaylRayzor]

The Amuse R1 is a lovely drive. It feels more like a touring car than tuner street car and is an absolute delight to throw about. Very neutral with a precise nose and planted rear end - no need for any traction control, just make sure all the aids are off and enjoy. 148mph top end doesn't matter when you have this much confidence through the turns.

The Amuse R1 is my favorite tuner in the game.

I ran this car at 480PP on Sport Soft pre-2.02. Link to report here
It's so planted it feels like you've got race tires.

 

[axletramp]

Perhaps I should have read that before I set off. Those RH's were way too much.

 

[HaylRayzor]

Great News!

The suicide lap problem is fixed!

Just did a quick test and the following cars pitted on lap 2.

S2000 GT1 Turbo
CTR2
IS F Racing Concept
S2000 GT1

2nd quick test:

Yellow Bird is pitting every lap
R8 LMS pitted on lap 2
Stream Z pitted on lap 2

I'm going to let the AI cars run the race while I sleep. Tomorrow I'll report race times for as many as I can.

 

[axletramp]

Interesting. If you have a chance (I won't be able to run one for a few days) could you let us know how long the AI pit for. Do they pit for a shorter time with less fuel or do they fill up every time? Thanks for the update. 👍

 

[ItsHim]

That's great news. I was longing for a fresh challenge for quite some while and elimination of suicide laps makes me think the competitiveness of the racing should improve good stuff!

 

[Dotini]

Post 2.03
Car: Suzuki GSX-R/4 Concept '01
HP: 181/175
PP: 449/445
Weight: 840kg
Top Speed Setting: 168mph
Tires: RS
Pit Strategy: 4-4-4-4-4-3-3

Grid:
1. Mine's BNR 34 SKYLINE GT-R V-spec N1
2. 2007 HPA Motorsports FT565
3. Amuse S2000 GT1 '04
4. Nismo 400R
5. HPA Motorsports Stage II R32
6. HKS CT230R '08
7. Me
8. Nismo Skyline GT-R R-tune (R34) '99
9. Fairlady Z Z-tune (Z33) '03
10. Mine's BNR 34 SKYLINE GT-R N1 '06
11. Nissan Gran Turismo Skyline GT-R '01
12. Nismo 380RS Super Leggera

MoV after 26 laps: ~39 seconds over Fairlady Z Z-tune and Amuse S2000 GT 1, only inches apart!

My Fastest Lap: 9:02.866; out lap 9:29/9:36
Fairlady Z FL: 8:59.616; out lap ~9:27
Amuse GT 1 FL: 8:57.974; out lap ~9:27


Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[HaylRayzor]

AI Race Times Post 2.03

Audi R8 LMS ...... 28 laps 4:08'04* 2-lap
S2000 GT1 Turbo 28 laps 4:08'16 4"08'15 2-lap
S2000 GT1 ........ 27 laps 4:09'10 2-lap
Z-tune Z33 ....... 26 laps 4:00'54 2-lap
HPA FT586 ........ 26 laps 4:02'34 3-lap
RUF CTR2 .......... 26 laps 4:03'17 2-lap
380RS .............. 26 laps 4:03'30 3-lap
Yellow Bird ........ 26 laps 4:03'38 4:04'33 1-lap
Mines BNR34 ...... 26 laps 4:03'34 4:03'58 4-lap
HKS CT230R ...... 26 laps 4:03'48 4-lap
Amemiya RX-7 ... 26 laps 4:04'29 3-lap
HEP G37 ........... 26 laps 4:08'08 4:07'55 2-lap
Opera 350Z ....... 26 laps 4:09'19 2-lap or 3-lap (borderline)
GT-R S-tune ..... 25 laps 4:00'06 3-lap
GT Skyline ........ 25 laps 4:00'15 3-lap
Art Morrison ...... 25 laps 4:01'11 2-lap
NISMO 400R ...... 25 laps 4:06'16 3-lap or 4-lap (borderline)
Mine's EVO VI .... 24 laps 4:00'03 5-lap


Several cars pitted at the end of their last lap, including the rabbits.

The LMS was not in this race but in a previous test the LMS was beating the GT1 Turbo. The LMS fast lap was 8:34, while the GT1 Turbo fast lap was 8:37. That works out to 1:14 faster over the 28 laps.
* EDIT: The LMS was in the second race and he ran behind the Turbo until lap 23, resulting in him being held up a second per lap, so his time would have been ~20 seconds better if not behind the Turbo.

The long and short of it is that the rabbits are back to their same average lap times as before 2.02, but tire wear is much more than before so we'll need to be faster to beat them.

 

[axletramp]

Thanks for this. 👍

So the GT1 Turbo and Audi LMS are back to 28 laps with this new system. Interesting, as when I ran this a few days back, the Audi LMS only managed 27 laps - but that was with the 3rd lap of doom.

 

[Dotini]

Post 2.03
In the race I ran yesterday against (the 1st grid after console reset) the Amuse GT1 and Fairlady Z, these two pitted every other lap, and were the rabbits, as the HPA FT565 finished a further 3 minutes in arrears. We are snowed in today at Seattle, so perhaps I will take the time to do some grid researching.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

Edit:
I ran through the first 20+ grids in A-spec, jotting down all the entries. But, having questions about the relative performance of the cars in the race, I entered my Suzy, bumped up to 533 PP, in the 2nd B-spec grid from reset. So far both A-spec and B-spec grids appear to be the same. Here's what happened at the finish:

Finishing Order............Gap.........Fastest Lap
1. Amuse GT1 Turbo...................9:13.240
2. Suzuki GSX-R/4.......6:11........9:32.806
3. Amuse GT1...........8:37........9:30.055
4. Lexus IS F.............8:53........9:19.378
5. Ruf CTR2...............9:18........9:17.887

So my questions are:
1) Does this reflect the relative strength in an A-spec race among the GT1, Lexus and Ruf?
2) The FL of the GT1 was 9:30. In my A-spec race, GT1 lapped at under 9 minutes. Why the discrepancy? Are large variations in the performance of the cars to be expected between A-spec and B-spec, or is the variation due to circumstances arising in the race to cause the Bob's to go faster or slower?

 

[lilcat89]

I was experimenting last night with my replica sp8 vantage and got hunted down on RH tires by the gt1 Turbo. Thinking I am going to go down to ss and without the Turbo in the grid, it would be a good close race.

 

[HaylRayzor]

...Why the discrepancy? Are large variations in the performance of the cars to be expected between A-spec and B-spec, or is the variation due to circumstances arising in the race to cause the Bob's to go faster or slower?

In a test yesterday I found that the GT1 Turbo completed only 26 laps in B-spec, while the same car does 28 laps in A-spec. There is clearly a large difference between the AI speeds.

But even so, in a car that an average human driver would dominate the AI, Bob manages to lose.

Your example shows this. Any half-decent human driver would kill the GT1 Turbo in a 533PP GSX/R-4, even with the Turbo going 28 laps. Bob can't beat him even when he does only 26.

 

[Dotini]

There is clearly a large difference between the AI speeds.

Yes. My current B-spec race of grid #4 (no GT1 Turbo or R8 LMS) is finished with the following results:

Finish Order...............Gap.........Fastest Lap
1. GSX-R/4 (PP531)...................9:25.534
2. Amuse GT1............+1:00......9:25.620
3. AEM S2000.............+:01.......9:24.193
4. Ruf CTR2...............+3:55......9:17.887
5. Anemiya RX-7........+4:00......9:28.351
6. Lexus IS F.............+4:26.......9:19.378
7, etc...

Still, it seems to emerge that the Amuse GT1, AEM S2000, Fairlady Z, Ruf CTR2 and Lexus all run in the front half of the pack, perhaps with the Amuse GT1 only sometimes holding the upper hand?

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[HaylRayzor]

I was making a test run in the Alpha TZ2 and both rabbits popped.

I had no illusion that I could beat them (in the current update) but their presence wouldn't affect my test.

I put on the high rpm turbo and RS tires for grins and off we go. I get skunked on the start. Everything but the 400R and the Mines Evo passed me.

Through the first few turns I got up to 4th and then turning onto the nordschleife I passed the CT230R for 3rd.

As the first lap unfolded I watched the gap grow to the lead cars. It was clear they were in a different league.

I managed a 9'00 for lap 2. Tire wear was good and it looked like 4 or even 5 laps were doable. Unfortunately the rabbits were so far ahead that they made their stops and came out 20 seconds ahead of me.

I was slowly increasing the gap to the CT230R and the other cars were some distance behind him.

At the end of lap 3 I decided to pack it in since there wasn't anything more to be learned for this combination.

But the 2 rabbits were still running together and I decided to go to bed and let them duke it out. I am confident the LMS will prevail, but I am curious by how much. I'm also curious how the Turbo's race time will be affected by the LMS running with him keeping him hot.

Anyway, the TZ2 is more than capable of beating the 26 lap cars. It is certainly not going to beat the 28 lap cars. The GT1 non-turbo might be a good race. Or using less tires the CT230R would be a good race.

 

[Dotini]

Anyway, the TZ2 is more than capable of beating the 26 lap cars. It is certainly not going to beat the 28 lap cars. The GT1 non-turbo might be a good race. Or using less tires the CT230R would be a good race.

If my transcription of the entry lists is accurate and consistent, either the GT 1 Turbo or R8 LMS appears in the following lineups:
2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22. Only in grids 3, 7, 14 and 20 does it start in the bottom half of the field.

When one or two of the bully boys don't enter (1, 4, 5, 9, 10, 17, and 23), the Amuse GT1 always appears, except for grid #9. Of these, the only grid in which the GT1 starts in the bottom half is 4 and 17.

Grid #9, without the bullies or the GT1 looks interesting:
1. HPA FT565 Twin Turbo Audi TT
2. RE Anemiya FD3S RX-7
3. Opera 350Z '04
4. HKS CT230R '08
5. Fairlady Z Z-tune (Z33) '03
6. Ruf CTR2 '96
7. You
8. Skyline GT-R R-tune (R34)
9. Nismo 380RS Super Leggera
10. Gran Turismo 350Z RS
11. AEM S2000
12. Mine's BNR34 Skyline GT-R N1 base '06

Now, both the Fairlady Z and the AEM S2000 are quick and capable, so I wouldn't discount them as real threats in this race. But I invite you other N4 nutters to see if this is the 9th grid to show up after your own console reset.

Be advised that the UCD inventory will be replaced by three rows for every entry, so it will be totally new after 5 entries.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[axletramp]

Great work - I'll test if I get the same results tonight.

 

[HaylRayzor]

But the 2 rabbits were still running together and I decided to go to bed and let them duke it out. I am confident the LMS will prevail, but I am curious by how much. I'm also curious how the Turbo's race time will be affected by the LMS running with him keeping him hot.

The LMS followed the Turbo until lap 23, when he finally drafted past on Dottinger. The LMS pulled away from the Turbo a second a lap after that.

The Turbo's time didn't seem to be affected by the LMS sniffing his butt for 23 laps. Unexpected.

The LMS's time was definately affected by following the Turbo 23 laps, as reflected by the fact that he pulled away once he got by.

I integrated the results of this test with the previous one in the above post.

 

[Dotini]

I ran grid #9 in B-spec in order to check out the strength of the contestants before running this race in A-spec.
Here are the results:

Finish Order......................Fastest Lap...1st Pit......Gap
1. GSX-R/4, 531PP.............9:27.784......lap 4
2. AEM S2000...................9:25.820......3............2:14
3. Fairlady Z Z-tune '03......9:24.029......2.............4:36
4. Ruf CTR2 '96.................9:30.188......2............6:16
5. FT565 Twin Turbo Audi... 9:25.928......4
6. Anemiya FD3S RX-7........9:31.235......3
7. 380RS Super Leggera.....9:25.365.......3
8. Mine's BNR34 base '06...9:36.055........4
9. HKS CT230R '08............9:28.553........4
10. Opera 350Z '04............9:54.857........3
11. Skyline GT-R R-tune......9:34.876.......3
12. Gran Turismo 350Z RS..10:10.XXX......4

Not all cars stuck with the same pit strategy. Some went with shorter stints at times, it seemed.

It's difficult to say these results will prove to be consistent or valuable before several trials in A-spec. But it's clear racing grid #9, with the "rabbit" AEM S2000 starting 11th, looks to be favorable for our cars with low performance points to do well in.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Morgoth_666]

The LMS followed the Turbo until lap 23, when he finally drafted past on Dottinger. The LMS pulled away from the Turbo a second a lap after that.

The Turbo's time didn't seem to be affected by the LMS sniffing his butt for 23 laps. Unexpected.

The LMS's time was definately affected by following the Turbo 23 laps, as reflected by the fact that he pulled away once he got by.

I integrated the results of this test with the previous one in the above post.

Encouraging info.

I have often heard so but have never seen any evidence that the AI actually drives in races against a human with a similar "hot-cold" style like in the B-Spec races. They just run the same pace all the time, unless they are actively fighting each other.

It's so incredibly drastic in B-Spec that it's virtually impossible for any car even if clearly superior to build a lead for more than a lap or two, and the car in last always falls asleep and just drops further and further behind. Also, once a car drops more than a second or so behind a multi-car battle it will slow way down never catch up even if it has the faster car.

I have never seen any of this behavior in A-Spec. The faster cars always catch the slower ones and will just follow in a train forever until gradually they work past. Once a fast car gets in front it will run away from the pack unless a faster one gets 2nd and starts reeling it in. If you crash out the rabbit and make it drop way to the back it will catch up in no time. The only time I've seen the leader's pace change is when it goes down briefly while in traffic, or instantly when making a mistake.

I'm not sure but I think I may have seen some slight rubber banding when the player is behind, they seem to run a little bit slower, but only maybe a second or so per lap, not the 10+ seconds falling asleep in B-Spec causes. And of course the rubber banding that drags the AIs after you in normal races starts to get extreme well past the gap that a B-Spec driver would be cuddled up in bed with his blankie. The speed-up version is thankfully disabled in enduros(could you imagine?!) so I'd expect the other side of it to be gone as well.

Not trying to start a argument, I've just been eagerly reading the results of the testing people are doing and getting excited to try some racing without those Laps of Doom. I'm simply happy that your test helped further confirm what I've seen all along(and more importantly, that it seems to not happen in enduros). I have often heard people suggest that the bots drive B-Spec style in A-Spec but I have no idea where the suggestion could have started.

It'd be nice to have both of the rabbits to race against, might make things more interesting. I've always only had the R8(and I had to have it until I beat it fairly). Of course, I can't race directly with either of them since my car is always much too slow and I make up the difference skipping pit stops - and previously on their in-lap.

Wow that was a long post.

 

[Jakob79]

I had a try on this race today and didn't finish it caneled after 8th lap or so at that point i was 1:30 mins behind on P3 loosing 2-3 secs every sector my car was a NISMO 380RS Super leggera with 300 HP / 1120 Kgs on Race hards.
My grid was:
highend G37
Mine's Lancer EVO VI
NISMO 400R '96
FT565 Twin Turbo TT
GRAN TURISMO 350Z
Skyline GT-r S-tune (R32)
me
BNR34 SKYLINE GT-R N1 base '06
NISMO 380RS Super Leggera
R8 LMS Race Car '09
Art morrison Vette '60
S2000 GT1 Turbo

My best lap was 9:00.8xx
but even then the tuned Fairady won't cut it against the R8 and S2K
I gona doo more testing and run this again soon.

 

[HaylRayzor]

I ran a test with the Genki Hyper Silvia against the LMS. The Silvia was stock (570PP) except for an adjustable transmission, on race hard tires.

The LMS got the lead early and I was right behind him. I was able to keep up with the LMS but not pass him (without bumping him out of the way). I made a small slip at Pflanzgarten and he got away about 2 seconds and I wasn't able to close it back up before he hit Dottinger. He pulled another 2 seconds to the finish line.

Of course the Sylvia gets 3 strong laps on tires so I'd beat him by making less stops. But the point of the test was to run them head-to-head for one lap. The Hyper Silvia isn't the fastest 570PP in the game but damn that LMS is fast.

 

[-raVer-]

Started a new race.
As it will be the attempt for LV 40 , I took a special and one of my favourite cars , the BMW M5 `05.

The car is stock except the Sports Soft tyres and the added Ballast , so the car starts with 504 PP and 1900 kg ( PL is 100% ).

The Lineup:

1. Mine's BNR 34 SKYLINE GT-R V-spec N1
2. 2007 HPA Motorsports FT565
3. Amuse S2000 GT1 '04
4. Nismo 400R
5. HPA Motorsports Stage II R32
6. HKS CT230R '08
7. BMW M5 `05 (me)
8. Nismo Skyline GT-R R-tune (R34) '99
9. Fairlady Z Z-tune (Z33) '03
10. Mine's BNR 34 SKYLINE GT-R N1 '06
11. Nissan Gran Turismo Skyline GT-R '01
12. Nismo 380RS Super Leggera


Currently suspending the race in 1st , 22 seconds ahead of the S2000 GT1.
2 hr 09 min 01 sec in the race , pitting at the end of lap 14 for my 7th pitstop.

Currently Best Lap : 8:58.958
Avg Outlap : 9:27

Update:

Finished 1st after 4 hr 09 min 11 sec , 1.5 sec ahead of the S2000 GT1.

Laps : 27
Pitstops : 13
Best Lap : 8:58.906
End PP : 499

We had to do a 27th lap because I crossed the line 25 seconds before the 4hr mark and I couldn´t slow down that much , since the S2000 was about 6 seconds behind me.



raVer