Four Hours: The Nürburgring 4Hr Companion & Competition

[-raVer-]

Here´s something to watch.

I had a 1 hour testrun with a 450 PP car.

The car was a 450 PP , MS Elise (234 bhp , 900 kg , PowerLimiter 96.1% , RM tyres)






raVer

 

[Silent Bob]

@ -raVer-:

Thanks for the video.

I noticed it's better to change tires before 1/3 of the wear. This has two positive side effects:
1. You don't lose time racing with worn out tires.
2. You don't lose time refueling because you make more pit stops and distribute the total fuel needed more evenly during the race.

The other thing I noticed is that if you pause the video at 55:50 you can see that the best lap of the GT1 is 9.04. This is very unusual, as I've seen the GT1 lap around 8.55/8.58. Is this a possible indicator that the AI adjusts it's speed according to the PP of car the player is using?

 

[jtv90069]

Just had a run out of curiosity in the HPA Stage II R32. It is one of my favorite cars from GT4, 548hp, 1485kg and was only 41,000 credits (in GT4)

Still pre 2.02

I ran it with Racing Medium tyres and against the rabbits. My Aim was simply to see how much faster I could run it than the AI. Here is how I went.

Lap 1
2nd 8'35.139 +0.809
Lap 2
3rd 8'32.925 +1.729
Lap 3
2nd 8'35.365 +0.982
Lap 4
3rd 8'45.169 +2.553 PIT
Lap 5
2nd 9'08.384 +6.250
Lap 6
1st 8'34.689 -54.141
Lap 7
1st 8'35.505 -48.387
Lap 8
1st 8'44.475 -36.869 PIT
Lap 9
3rd 9'32.381 +16.266
Lap 10
1st 8'47.295 -1.561 (hitting a bad patch)
Lap 11
1st 8'43.861 -52.973
Lap 12
1st 8'46.844 -39.306 PIT(somewhat back on track)
Lap 13
2nd 9'27.636 +10.498
2hour
1st Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo
2nd HPA Stage II R32
3rd Audi R8 LMS
4th RUF CTR2
5th Mine's BNR34
6th Lexus IS F Racing
7th AEM S2000
8th High End G27
9th NISMO GT-R S tune
10th Nissan Option Stream Z
11th RUF CTR "Yellow Bird"
12th Mine's LANCER EVO
The Audi has just lapped the NISMO S tune

Lap 14
2nd 8'35.218 +7.669
Lap 15
1st 8'38.595 -17.014
Lap 16
1st 8'45.318 -1'08.969 PIT
Lap 17
1st 9'20.034 -17.494
Lap 18
1st 8'34.560 -18.055
Lap 19
1st 8'38.328 -21.111
Lap 20
1st 8'47.075 -36.874 PIT
Lap 21
1st 9'27.697 -48.113
Lap 22
1st 8'46.361 -31.235(another bad patch)
Lap 23
1st 8'43.403 -22.807
Lap 24
1st 8'52.129 -9.431 PIT
Lap 25
2nd 9'34.218 +18.659
Lap 26
1st 8'36.025 -48.511(much better)
Lap 27
1st 8'40.910 -37.173(meh)
Lap 28
1st 8'45.729 around 25 seconds margin
Final Time 4hr 07'35.250

1st HPA Stage II R32
2nd Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo
3rd Audi R8 LMS
4th RUF CTR2 +1 Lap
5th Mine's BNR34 +1 Lap
6th AEM S2000 +1 Lap
7th Lexus IS F Racing +1 Lap
8th High End G27 +1 Lap
9th Nissan Option Stream Z +2 Laps
10th RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" +2 Laps
11th NISMO GT-R S tune +2 Laps
12th Mine's LANCER EVO +3 Laps

My Ave Speed 103.0 MPH
AI R32 Ave Speed 96.8 MPH

In conclusion the HPA Stage II R32 is a really easy car to drive although I had a few consistency issues during the race losing 50sec easily. It definitely surprised me with it's lap speed where i managed 7 laps below 8'36.

 

[-raVer-]

@ -raVer-:

Thanks for the video.

I noticed it's better to change tires before 1/3 of the wear. This has two positive side effects:
1. You don't lose time racing with worn out tires.
2. You don't lose time refueling because you make more pit stops and distribute the total fuel needed more evenly during the race.

The other thing I noticed is that if you pause the video at 55:50 you can see that the best lap of the GT1 is 9.04. This is very unusual, as I've seen the GT1 lap around 8.55/8.58. Is this a possible indicator that the AI adjusts it's speed according to the PP of car the player is using?

to 1: Yes and you have some spare tyres if you mess up a lap.
to 2: a little math:

If you take the first 4 laps:

With a 2 lap stint:
1st lap : 9:10
2nd lap : 9:03
3rd lap : 9:25 (Outlap , pitted with tyres AND max fuel)
4th lap : 9:03

makes a avg of 9:10 per lap

With a 3 lap stint:
1st lap : 9:10
2nd lap : 9:03
3rd lap : 9:03 (must be same or less than 2nd lap)
4th lap : 9:25 (Outlap , pitted with tyres and no fuel or fuel for 2 laps)

makes a avg of 9:10 per lap too


The best laptimes you see is mostly with draft assistance and I guess you´ll see those sub 9 min times after 3 hours , driving with less fuel.



raVer

 

[axletramp]

Wow, the 2.02 update has really messed with my times. I can't get near my previous lap times (reports on this thread) by using RH & RMs and if I use the RS I have to pit on lap 3 rather than lap 5 or even 6! I'm just going to forget my pre-2.02 runs and start again from scratch gradually bringing the PP down.

Also, inspired by raVer's video of the MS Elise, I decided to try the Vauxhall VX220 Turbo at 450PP (904kg, 205bhp, RM tyres) just for the comparison. The split times were quite similar but where it loses out is on top speed, probably due to the lower bhp at 450PP. I could only muster about 145mph by the second gantry (152mph drafting) and as a consequence lost about 3 secs a lap over the Elise. Top speed was set to 168mph. Tyre wear was also slightly worse so the 3rd lap wasn't as consistent. A win would be very tough for me.

I'll either bump up the PP or try the 'bottom of the range' Amuse - the R1 - next.

 

[-raVer-]

Wow, the 2.02 update has really messed with my times. I can't get near my previous lap times (reports on this thread) by using RH & RMs and if I use the RS I have to pit on lap 3 rather than lap 5 or even 6! I'm just going to forget my pre-2.02 runs and start again from scratch gradually bringing the PP down.

Also, inspired by raVer's video of the MS Elise, I decided to try the Vauxhall VX220 Turbo at 450PP (904kg, 205bhp, RM tyres) just for the comparison. The split times were quite similar but where it loses out is on top speed, probably due to the lower bhp at 450PP. I could only muster about 145mph by the second gantry (152mph drafting) and as a consequence lost about 3 secs a lap over the Elise. Top speed was set to 168mph. Tyre wear was also slightly worse so the 3rd lap wasn't as consistent. A win would be very tough for me.

I'll either bump up the PP or try the 'bottom of the range' Amuse - the R1 - next.

Do you have DF and if you have , how much ?

Mine was set to minimum ( 0/5).


raVer

 

[axletramp]

No aero on the front but I put a wing on it to help with the rear end. It was set to about 15-20. Could that make the difference? If it does, I might take the wing off and try again. It will also mean I can bring the BHP up slightly to keep at 450PP.

 

[-raVer-]

No aero on the front but I put a wing on it to help with the rear end. It was set to about 15-20. Could that make the difference? If it does, I might take the wing off and try again. It will also mean I can bring the BHP up slightly to keep at 450PP.

5 DF on the rear end is enough and you can put the remaining PP in power (i guess around 30 bhp) what increases your top end.

I would go without the wing but if you have issues with handling than keep the wing.

btw I found a new car at 450 PP.It can lap in the 8:56s.


raVer

 

[DickDastardly]

This was only meant to be a test but it turned into the whole 4 hrs...

Car: Nissan 240RS Rally Car '85.

Aids: ABS1, everything else off.

I think I put the high-end turbo on it. Didn't write down the starting PP but it finished on 482 and GT Auto says an oil change will take it back up to 489 so I think that's what it started on.

Leading AI was the S2000 non-turbo. The other cars didn't matter, it was just me and him from the start.

We were both on racing Mediums, and both pitting every 3 laps. The S2000 was the faster car, but his tyres ran out sooner than mine, so I caught him a lot every 3rd lap. Also, I was only using about 9 litres per lap and running the fuel down to finish nearly empty, so I made up a lot of time in the pits.

I initially thought I was going to win by miles, but then realised a lot of my early advantage was down to his inability to pass traffic. By lap 12, it was clear that we were both running very similar times over 3 lap stints, what with me being a bit inconsistent and lighting up the tyres a bit. Btw, this car, despite being FR, wears out the front tyres first.

I calculated that we were only going to get 26 laps in, so one stint would only be 2 laps. I then decided to take a leaf out of GTP_Hun's book, namely the chapter titled "LOCKED IN BATTLE" - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6341303#post6341303

For all readers of this report that have experienced the basics of B-Spec, it's as if the proximity of my car makes the AI driver enter the "red area" of the aggressiveness slider. So I decided to try to get "out of synch" with him and pit only a lap later.

Only difference is, I pitted 1 lap earlier, on lap 20 instead of 21, to get out of synch with the S2000. Of course, I drove the wheels off it during those 2 laps, knowing a 3rd lap wouldn't be necessary. This paid off, and along with some back markers getting lapped, meant that I was able to get a decent lead.

I eventually completed 26 laps in a time of 4hrs and 55 seconds. If I was better at driving, I would have been able to start the 27th lap. I won by approximately the length of the Dottinger straight in the end. Fastest lap was 9:00.xxx but I could have gone faster.

Footnote: I've seen a lot of people mention that it's not always easy to see the track at night in the Nurb 24hr, especially in the GP arena. So I took this car out for a practice run at night, and WOAH. TEN headlights! It's like driving in the daytime!

 

[axletramp]

Never one to break a habit of a lifetime, I decided not to run any of the cars I've been testing and jump into something I haven't driven before. I also wanted to go up against the Audi R8 LMS and the AMG 190 E Evolution II Touring Car at 530PP looked a good balance between power, low weight and unusualness (is that a word?). This would also act as a good test on the Audi's pace post 2.02 update. So into the unknown I jumped with both feet and was a little surprised with what happened and how I ended up driving this race...



Car: AMG 190 E 2.5 - 16 Evolution II Touring Car '92
HP: 372
PP: 531
Mods/Tuning: None
Top Speed Setting: 199mph
Tyres: RM
All aids off. ABS 1. DFGT wheel.

Grid:
1. Gran Turismo 350Z RS
2. CTR "Yellow Bird" '87
3. Lancer Evolution VI '00
4. Carbon R (R34) '04
5. R8 LMS Race Car '09
6. FT565 twin turbo Audi TT
7. Me
8. BNR 34 SKYLINE GT-R N1'06
9. Skyline GT-R S-tune (R32) '00
10. Skyline GT-R R-tune (R32) '99
11. Stage II R32
12. Gran Turismo Skyline GT-R '01

First thing to note is that I should have done an oil change and perhaps some restoration, but hey, let's live on the edge!

Lap 1 - 8:49.xxx
Off we go and I hold position in the drag to the first corner but watch the R8 blast itself into 3rd. I brake late into second but my first experience of the AMG's brakes means I slightly over shoot and the R8 undercuts me. I then out brake him into the next corner and into second, a good 3 seconds behind the Yellow Bird. I hold station quite well but this car understeers quite badly and I'm not comfortable. As a consequence this lap is a little scrappy - probably due to me overdriving it - and as I take the Yellow Bird through Hocheichen I miss my braking point and let the R8 through. I end the lap 18 seconds down in second. That Audi is super quick on new tyres and I'm not getting on with this AMG.

Lap 2 - 8:49.xxx
Not a great lap as struggle to find my feet with this car. I quite like a little bit of understeer (weird I know!) but even I'm having problems getting the nose in. Tyre wear is suffering as I hunt for some good lines and braking point. The Japanese TC's I've run previously appear to be more balanced and you can brake much later. The R8 has a stormer and opens the lead to 42 secs which I manage to stabilise by the end of the lap.

Lap 3 - 9:01.xxx
Pit In - I pray that the R8 has it's lap of doom as I'm clearly on a 3 lap strategy with these tyres. The GT god's hear me and I start to reel him in and pit just 8 seconds behind him - that's around a 30 second gain! That makes me feel a lot better. This is now clearly a two horse race as I'm over 30 secs ahead of second already. New RM tyres and no fuel. The fronts are down to 25%, the rears 50%. I've used about 30-33 litres of fuel.

Lap 4 - 9:02.xxx
Pit Out - I pull out 13 secs ahead and already know that if I keep the R8 in view - and I don't make any mistakes - I'll always gain 30 secs in the in lap, plus anything I gain in the pits.

Lap 5 - 8:39.xxx
OK, nice and steady, just keeping on the black stuff, don't worry about the slowly gaining R8. End lap 7 secs ahead.

Lap 6 - 8:49.xxx
Pit In - Steady and accurate is the key here - just don't go flat out and things are looking good. New RM's and 20 litres of fuel. The steady non-aggressive driving has kept my tyres in much better condition. 37 secs ahead.

Lap 7 - 9:06.xxx
Pit Out - Steady lap, no drama - I think I might have sussed out the trick with the new tyre wear physics. Lap a smoking Yellow Bird who does his best to take me out at Pflanzgarten I. +52 secs.

Lap 8 - 8:43.xxx
Keeping it tidy rather that flat out. R8 always has a fast second lap. +38 secs.

Lap 9 - 8:49.xx
Pit In - Now feeling much more at home with the AMG. Lap Mine's Lancer. Managing tyre wear better now. New RM's and 20 litres of fuel. +1:03 ahead.

Lap 10 - 9:12.xxx
Pit Out - Lap 350Z RS.

Lap 11 - 8:45.xxx
Steady lap - One small grassy off.

Lap 12 - 8:53.xxx
Pit In - This would have been my fastest lap by over 4 secs had I not lost 20-odd seconds driving like a complete tart in the final 3rd of the lap! Tyres and 30 litres of fuel. +1:42 ahead.

Lap 13 - 9:19.xxx
Pit Out - Little off at Aremberg.

Lap 14 - 8:40.xxx
Steady lap, no drama.

Lap 15 - 9:19.xxx
Pit In - A gaggle of back markers means I lose a few seconds by just being way too polite. +2:04 ahead.

Lap 16 - 9:12.xxx
Pit Out - Tyres and 30 litres.

Lap 17 - 8:40.xxx
Stead lap, no drama. Completely comfortable with this car now - it took a while!

Lap 18 - 9:12.xxx
Pit In - Tyres and 30 litres. +2:20 ahead.

Lap 19 - 9:15.xxx
Pit Out - nothing to report.

Lap 20 - 8:41.xxx
More of the same - it's clearly in the bag now.

Lap 21 - 9:11.xxx
Pit In - Whoa! Brain fade... Two big 360 spins kill my tyres. Gently back to the pits with virtually no front end grip. Tyres and 30 litres.

Lap 22 - 9:10.xxx
Pit Out - nothing to report. +2:50 ahead.

Lap 23 - 8:39.xxx
Fastest lap but still below what I could do had I been under pressure.

Lap 24 - 9:06.xxx
Pit In - JUST! I must have been getting tired, plus something my wife was watching on TV made me laugh and I missed the pit entrance. I locked up and stopped with my nose just the wrong side of the pit wall. A little reverse and in - I know, I know, black flag.... meh. Lost about 5 secs.

Lap 25 - 9:15.xxx
Pit Out - The stewards were kind and I'm allowed to continue. +3:04

Lap 26 - 8:55.xxx
Traffic and a small off.

Lap 27 - 8:50.xxx
And we cruise across the line for a surprisingly easy win 3:15 secs ahead of the R8. I didn't just beat him, I nailed his ass to the mast!

Finish time 4:01:32.xxx

Conclusion:
Tbh after the second pit stop I knew this was a win and considered exiting the race, but I needed to know what the R8's strategy was for future runs - I also wanted to master the AMG. The R8's wings have been well and truly clipped post the 2.02 update. It can no longer do 28 laps and it's 3rd lap is an absolute disaster. I could probably have won this even if I'd power limited down to below 500PP - and that was the biggest surprise as the AMG 190 E isn't the easiest TC to drive either. But I'm sure some of you tunerz could sort that out. Top speed by the gantry was 170mph.

I think the main point to note from this run was that steady and accurate yielding faster laps that trying to attack. If you push this car too much, you'll kill the RM's and be facing the wrong way before you know it. It's very much a case of 'don't panic'.

Not sure I'd run against the R8 again or not as it was very lonely - we shall see. And for me, I'm back to testing cars I'll probably never run again...

edit: Forgot to mention that I might recommend keeping the sound down as 10,000 rpm for four hours can get a bit grating.

 

[W3H5]

Looks like from now on most pit strategies are going to be consisting or short, conservative stints of around 3-4 laps.

 

[elrousso]

Anybody that has raced this has an idea of ho much the AI times have changed between pre-2.02 and post-2.02 ? I'm testing different cars and different setups to race this and have some kind of a challenge doing it but I'm having trouble finding a nice target time for my fast laps...

 

[Silent Bob]

Anybody that has raced this has an idea of ho much the AI times have changed between pre-2.02 and post-2.02 ? I'm testing different cars and different setups to race this and have some kind of a challenge doing it but I'm having trouble finding a nice target time for my fast laps...

What do you mean? The last three pages have plenty of information on AI times post-2.02.
I have won this race by 0.1s. You simply can't get any closer than that.
I wrote my race report here.
In a nutshell: You need your fastest lap to be around 9:03 to 9:04 with near flawless driving. This is with those specific tires and pit strategy. If you use other tires, adjust accordingly, but you should have a good base time to start your test driving.

 

[elrousso]

You're right Silent Bob, I think I went through the last pages a little too fast Just went back and noticed some of the things I was searching for, thanks

 

[daan]

Having a go at this again with the new tyre wear, and it's looking rather interesting so far.

I'm in a stock Schulze Motorsport GT-R on Sports Hards. I'm loving the feel of the way the tyres lose their grip gradually, and over a longer period. I got to the end of lap 7 before I pitted, and I pitted for fuel rather than tyres. Although my tyres were losing me time by this point, the GT-R was still rather pleasant to drive.

I was in the lead when I pitted, but was stationary for so long filling up the tank that I came out just in front of the 2nd place HPA TT.

I got a new fastest lap on lap 10 (8:50.110.) It's currently paused on lap 11 and I'll hopefully get time to finish it later in the week.

 

[-raVer-]

Having a go at this again with the new tyre wear, and it's looking rather interesting so far.

I'm in a stock Schulze Motorsport GT-R on Sports Hards. I'm loving the feel of the way the tyres lose their grip gradually, and over a longer period. I got to the end of lap 7 before I pitted, and I pitted for fuel rather than tyres. Although my tyres were losing me time by this point, the GT-R was still rather pleasant to drive.

I was in the lead when I pitted, but was stationary for so long filling up the tank that I came out just in front of the 2nd place HPA TT.

I got a new fastest lap on lap 10 (8:50.110.) It's currently paused on lap 11 and I'll hopefully get time to finish it later in the week.

Inspired by you , I took the stock "GT-R Black Edition `12" on SH for a quick test.
This car is also a pleasure to drive but it eats the tyres quite fast since it has over 200 kilos more than the N24.
I suggest to try this car too.

Edit:

Tried the stock N24 on SH too.
I find , this car is a slight overkill against the S2000 GT1 and the FT565.
Could clock a 9:02.202 in first and 8:51.649 in second lap , going with a 17 seconds lead in third lap.



raVer

 

[daan]

Yeah, I would really need the R8 and the GT1 Turbo to be in the race to make it more interesting.

Have Sports Hards always lasted that long or is this new in the last update? All my previous attempts at this race have been using Race tyres.

 

[ItsHim]

I went out in a 430 Scuderia (wing, minimal downforce, sports exhaust, ABS and TCS 2) and SH lasted a good 6 laps with a 7th if I wanted to and SM lasted 5 hard laps with some rubber to spare.

TCS certainly has a big impact on wear, I'd say one gains a lap at least.

Quite a fun car against the first grid/lineup.

 

[W3H5]

TCS certainly has a big impact on wear, I'd say one gains a lap at least.

For not using it, right? Surely the small adjustments made by the system must eat tyres more?

I've never managed to get the Scuderia sideways during the 4 hours, it's just too well balanced.

 

[Michelin]

I'm just giving this another try in a 370Z Tuned Car (GT Academy) that I got from Secret Santa Agent75 (it came with 558PP in RH's)
My grid has the S2000 GT1 Turbo which is in 3rd (right behind me) and 1st place ahead of me by 14+ seconds is a S2000 GT1 driven by K. Yamauchi... wait, WHAT?

 

[-raVer-]

Started a new Race with a Citroen C4 WRC `08 ( 496PP , 100%PL , SS tyres )

Currently suspending the race , entering the pits at the end of lap 12 for my 6th pitstop at 1 hr 50 min 46 sec with a 40 second lead , in front of the S2000 GT1 , coming in for his 4th pitstop.

Currently best lap : 9:02.656
avg outlap : 9:27



raVer

 

[axletramp]

Tested the Alfa Giulia TZ2 '65 stock (501PP after oil change) on SS and top speed set to 168mph. I wanted to see if the lower tyre wear (compared to the racing tyres) would make up for the lack of power. It doesn't. I can relatively easily run to 8 laps (9 might be possible with low fuel) but the lack of top end speed (142mph at the 2nd gantry) and apparently low torque out of corners meant that I was struggling to break 9'30" on a clean lap and over 1'30" down at my first pit stop. A stage 2 turbo would probably bring it into contention, but that's just sacrilege! Still it was fun. 👍

 

[-raVer-]

Started a new Race with a Citroen C4 WRC `08 ( 496PP , 100%PL , SS tyres )

Currently suspending the race , entering the pits at the end of lap 12 for my 6th pitstop at 1 hr 50 min 46 sec with a 40 second lead , in front of the S2000 GT1 , coming in for his 4th pitstop.

Currently best lap : 9:02.656
avg outlap : 9:27

Update:

Finished the race in 1st after 26 laps , 16.9 seconds in front of the S2000 GT1 in 4 hr 00 min 52 sec.

After resuming the race , I was fighting a permanent power loss lap for lap , which results in laptimes of 9:04 up to 9:07s.
The PP of the car went down from 496 to 493.

Laps done : 26
Pitstops : 12
Always took max fuel.



raVer

 

[ItsHim]

For not using it, right? Surely the small adjustments made by the system must eat tyres more?

I've never managed to get the Scuderia sideways during the 4 hours, it's just too well balanced.

With a DS3 I always use TCS 1 or 2 because the trigger (I use for gas) responds progressive and I can't cope with that for 4 hours.

It's those small bumps and uneven surfaces of the Ring that wear the tyres the most during acceleration to my experience. TCS helps me with very smooth inputs and thus save tyres. It doesn't really interfere with being in control of the car.

I'd say I gain a lap with TCS 1 or 2 on the Ring on a 5 lap stint.

 

[W3H5]

Mmmm...interesting. I'd always assumed because of the way TCS works that it's actually cause more friction and therefore wear away the tyres faster.

 

[ItsHim]

Mmmm...interesting. I'd always assumed because of the way TCS works that it's actually cause more friction and therefore wear away the tyres faster.

Maximum grip is achieved at optimum slip levels TCS just limits the slip and keeps the tyres from spinning when going over said little bumps on the Ring. Of course a similar effect can be achieved by suspension tuning, but I like to keep my cars stock. And I can't cope too well with the way the triggers of the DS3 work as the gas pedal in GT5. Wish they'd get less sensitive the harder they are pressed but it's unfortunately the other way round.

Do give it a try, a small amount of TCS won't spoil the fun.

 

[daan]

It's currently paused on lap 11 and I'll hopefully get time to finish it later in the week.

Well, it was until the power cut...

 

[axletramp]

Paused not suspended then? Schoolboy error.

 

[daan]

Paused not suspended then? Schoolboy error.

I dislike how you lose the saved replay if you suspend.

 

[axletramp]

That's a good point which I tend to forget as I usually run these in one hit after loads of test runs where I don't need replays. Do you use the replays for your race reports? I always pause during pit stops to write down the last few lap times along with my own shorthand notes. Quite tricky when you've got a car which can run more than the displayed 4 laps.