FRIC suspensions to be banned. Merc domination in danger?

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You'd need a leather jockstrap, a collar and a whip to understand the mentality. :D

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I wonder if it will even have the effect the FIA hope for. Every team is going to suffer from this. It might bunch up the midfield, but we'll still have a Mercedes-on-Mercedes battle up front. FRIC does benefit Mercedes most, but how big that benefit is hard to say, considering they absolutely struggled with the system over the past few seasons and the cars were dogs when it wasn't tuned right. I wouldn't put much faith in it slowing them down at all.

Williams could conceivably take a few more poles with the FRIC out of the way, or not, if their system is any good. But I doubt they'll be able to consistently match the Mercs on race pace till the last third of the season, when it's too late.

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Then again, double points... :yuck:
 
This is a big reason why I will never understand the FIA.
Because you can earn more money finding (and exploiting) loopholes in the regulations than you can closing them.

Look at Red Bull in 2012, who got dragged before the technical body on suspicion that they were using a banned OTBD - they got away with it because they found a way to recreate the effects by way of a loophole, that observed the letter of the law, even if it happily trampled on the spirit.

Closing a loophole can create smaller, unintentional loopholes that aren't immediately obvious.
 
Because you can earn more money finding (and exploiting) loopholes in the regulations than you can closing them.

Yeah but you also have to spend more, which is counter intuitive to all this bull crap about cost saving.

Look at Red Bull in 2012, who got dragged before the technical body on suspicion that they were using a banned OTBD - they got away with it because they found a way to recreate the effects by way of a loophole, that observed the letter of the law, even if it happily trampled on the spirit.

The difference is this is a system that has been around for years and vastly improved upon and now the FIA wants to ban it all of a sudden. Like I've seen others say on the subject it's much like them banning Traction control one day and then waking up one day in 2001 and saying "let's bring back traction control".

Closing a loophole can create smaller, unintentional loopholes that aren't immediately obvious.

Which will then get banned one day and possibly returned.
 
Yeah but you also have to spend more, which is counter intuitive to all this bull crap about cost saving.
No, the proposals the teams put forward are rubbish, because they save a few million here and there. Jean Todt wants far-reaching cost cutting in the most expensive areas, like windtunnel use and research and development, but the teams oppose it becauae it robs them of potential advantage.
 
No, the proposals the teams put forward are rubbish, because they save a few million here and there. Jean Todt wants far-reaching cost cutting in the most expensive areas, like windtunnel use and research and development, but the teams oppose it becauae it robs them of potential advantage.

I'm not talking about that. The fact from a financial stand point is, that the FRIC system has been developed already and a system that has been innovated upon more and more. It's set in stone pretty much and thus the working cost is understood on it, now we're mid season and once again the FIA wants to make a change that then becomes a financial decision for everyone on how they go about changing what was already paid for. Thus the idea no matter what the extent that the FIA is touting cost cutting at any avenue even the big ones seems silly when the rather make a mid season change instead of just doing it this Winter in lieu of the following year.

I already am well aware that teams come up with BS to support their gains or instead secure them but what I was talking about you seemed to have missed.
 
FIA sure has some swell timing do they not. Throwing a wrench into the season because they couldn't make up their minds on whether FRIC suspension was legal or not even though it's been in use for years.

The way I've always seen it is that they should loosen up on article 3.15 of the regulations, which is the one that forbids moveable aero devices by saying you have to have any aero pieces securely fixed onto the body of the car with no movement.

Now they're essentially calling the entire car a moveable aero device, which is stupid and not at the same time. Stupid because an F1 car can be called a moveable aero device in short, and not because the car just simply isn't supposed to act the way that it is, which is all about keeping the car as stable as possible so that aerodynamic effeciency is working at, or close to, its peak through out much more of the lap than without it.

The reason I agree with this ban is because it's too complex to tune. Brackley got it right, but it took them three years of trial and error to do so. You have to see this as much more of a cost cutting measure than trying to reduce speed.

FRIC really doesn't have the potential to get any better than what Merc has it at, so by getting rid of it for next year (there's no way it'll be banned for Germany) everyone's reset and no longer has to kill themselves trying to catch up to Merc.

It's a pretty cool system, but you have to understand it's an extreme workaround and there's no way this would ever show up on a road car. It weighs more than an active suspension set up would and no messy hydraullic system would be necessary.

What I think the FIA should do instead is change the rule from banning moveable aero devices to banning active aero devices and allowing passive ones like Renault's mass damper (literally just a slinky with a weight suspended in the middle designed to counter balance the nose of the car and help the front wing stabilize for better aero), Lotus's ride height stabilization, etc. Then teams wouldn't need to go to ridiculous lengths with something like FRIC and we'd see some really quirky and cool ace cards coming about from the teams in the form of different passive solutions to aero gain.

That's all in the design stage, so it wouldn't increase costs during the season with hellish amounts of time dedicated to fine tuning.
 
An interesting quote from TJ13's site.

The timing given for compliance gives this technical directive the appearance of being a political act – and the evidence for that is in the timings allowed for teams to comply. The Renault teams who were drilling into the fuel flow sensor earlier this year, were given several weeks to desist and then use only unmodified versions of the sensor. A fairly simple process.

There is less than two weeks to Hockenheim and the ramifications could be enormous.


Wasn't the plan to allow active suspension in the next few years anyway?
 
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You shouldn't be reading thejudge13. He's not the source he thinks he is. He likes to dress conjecture and conspiracy up as fact, and call it hard-hitting journalism.
 

That's an off topic remark, bring it to the attention of the moderators if you want. However, since it was posted and not commented since by anyone from the mod squad, I feel a reply is due, and since I'm the one questioned, I'll be the one replying. If the mods here think the question and the reply are inappropriate, remove/replace/delete at will. As of now, I'll quickly state my case.
- Firstly, this is not about technical parts, it is about a "coup d'état" performed by the FIA, with technical parts as a blatant excuse, that could greatly impact the remainder of this season. In short, this thread is mainly about the FIA and whatever is behind this surprise decision, with its probable immediate impact on Mercedes current domination.

- Secondly, a matter of this relevance, regardless of being (or not) about mechanic or aero design and parts, deserves its own thread, and this for two reasons: a) there's a lengthy a detailed discussion to be had about it; b) this subforum gains in its clarity and "ease-of-use" by having the relevant topics covered in threads whose title is clear on what's being discussed inside.

- Thirdly, and closely related to the prior paragraph, I do hold an ancient grudge against "catch all" threads. The site's policy about them has been variable throughout the ages ( :D ) and each moderator has probably his own ideas about them, as is to be expected. I strongly dislike threads like the "General Le Mans" or "General" wnything else. If Raikkonen would decide to end his career tomorrow (Lauda style), I would open a thread about it, I wouldn't post about such a big event in the "general 2014 driver change" thread.

Threads and thread titles are the front door to anyone arriving at a subforum, to check what's new. But that's just how I see it, and I'm in no way entitled to change gtplanet's way of organizing its forums - and the same applies to you, obviously - so let whoever is in charge merge threads, or divide them as they see fit.



Back on topic, I think it is baffling that the FIA thinks anyone will believe it took them a few years to realize the FRIC suspensions could provide an aero advantage for those using them. So this is a case where everyone (FIA and teams) know exactly WHY this is happening and everyone understands that the real reason isn't the one stated.

So, what is the real reason? The way I see it an attempt to close the gap between Mercedes and the other teams. Which begs the question: who is behind this? And I'll say Bernie Ecclestone or whoever is running the show.

And this is just wrong. I'm a guy that likes a good show, no problems with that. But a series that is supposedly about state of the art, cutting edge technology, cannot lose its soul because of the show. I understand if fans want to watch cars going at impossible speeds with their bumpers only a few milimeters apart. But that isn't F1. Each series has its own DNA and it must keep faithful to it or else fans will trade it for something else. And F1 isn't about sparks or engine loudness, nor is it about close racing from start to flag. It is about the best drivers in the entire world driving the most technologically advanced cars in the entire world, and do it all over the world too.

I understand technology being stopped for safety reasons. Or to make the drivers shine (the old debate on aero grip versus mechanical grip) But I don't understand technological advancements, clearly in a department that can translate to better road cars in the future (suspension), being stopped because ... the "show" is suffering.

I suppose the "show" was suffering too during the post war "Silver Arrows" dominance (usually associated to Neubauer, and the drivers Fangio and Moss). But I dare anyone to deny that was an iconic era, and one that didn't take anything away from Formula 1's heritage, history, and relevance.
 
I think Rosberg vs. Hamilton is plenty enough show. How often do we have a season that isn't dominated by just a couple of drivers? You don't hear many people retrospectively complaining about the 1989 Senna vs. Prost season dominated by the McLaren drivers.

The FIA should ban FRIC for next season, before teams have wasted too much time developing it for their 2015 cars. Not midway through the 2014 one with immediate effect. That just stinks of sour grapes and points to either Di Montezemalo or Mateschitz making hollow threats.
 
An interesting quote from TJ13's site.

The timing given for compliance gives this technical directive the appearance of being a political act – and the evidence for that is in the timings allowed for teams to comply. The Renault teams who were drilling into the fuel flow sensor earlier this year, were given several weeks to desist and then use only unmodified versions of the sensor. A fairly simple process.

There is less than two weeks to Hockenheim and the ramifications could be enormous.


Wasn't the plan to allow active suspension in the next few years anyway?

It's better to think of it as setup-by-wire. It's a suspension setup with servos all over the place that allow the engineers to make setup changes instantly rather than having to take the tools out to do it the old fashioned way. Once they set the car up, no further movement can be made during the race.


That's an off topic remark, bring it to the attention of the moderators if you want. However, since it was posted and not commented since by anyone from the mod squad, I feel a reply is due, and since I'm the one questioned, I'll be the one replying. If the mods here think the question and the reply are inappropriate, remove/replace/delete at will. As of now, I'll quickly state my case.
- Firstly, this is not about technical parts, it is about a "coup d'état" performed by the FIA, with technical parts as a blatant excuse, that could greatly impact the remainder of this season. In short, this thread is mainly about the FIA and whatever is behind this surprise decision, with its probable immediate impact on Mercedes current domination.

- Secondly, a matter of this relevance, regardless of being (or not) about mechanic or aero design and parts, deserves its own thread, and this for two reasons: a) there's a lengthy a detailed discussion to be had about it; b) this subforum gains in its clarity and "ease-of-use" by having the relevant topics covered in threads whose title is clear on what's being discussed inside.

- Thirdly, and closely related to the prior paragraph, I do hold an ancient grudge against "catch all" threads. The site's policy about them has been variable throughout the ages ( :D ) and each moderator has probably his own ideas about them, as is to be expected. I strongly dislike threads like the "General Le Mans" or "General" wnything else. If Raikkonen would decide to end his career tomorrow (Lauda style), I would open a thread about it, I wouldn't post about such a big event in the "general 2014 driver change" thread.

Threads and thread titles are the front door to anyone arriving at a subforum, to check what's new. But that's just how I see it, and I'm in no way entitled to change gtplanet's way of organizing its forums - and the same applies to you, obviously - so let whoever is in charge merge threads, or divide them as they see fit.



Back on topic, I think it is baffling that the FIA thinks anyone will believe it took them a few years to realize the FRIC suspensions could provide an aero advantage for those using them. So this is a case where everyone (FIA and teams) know exactly WHY this is happening and everyone understands that the real reason isn't the one stated.

So, what is the real reason? The way I see it an attempt to close the gap between Mercedes and the other teams. Which begs the question: who is behind this? And I'll say Bernie Ecclestone or whoever is running the show.

And this is just wrong. I'm a guy that likes a good show, no problems with that. But a series that is supposedly about state of the art, cutting edge technology, cannot lose its soul because of the show. I understand if fans want to watch cars going at impossible speeds with their bumpers only a few milimeters apart. But that isn't F1. Each series has its own DNA and it must keep faithful to it or else fans will trade it for something else. And F1 isn't about sparks or engine loudness, nor is it about close racing from start to flag. It is about the best drivers in the entire world driving the most technologically advanced cars in the entire world, and do it all over the world too.

I understand technology being stopped for safety reasons. Or to make the drivers shine (the old debate on aero grip versus mechanical grip) But I don't understand technological advancements, clearly in a department that can translate to better road cars in the future (suspension), being stopped because ... the "show" is suffering.

I suppose the "show" was suffering too during the post war "Silver Arrows" dominance (usually associated to Neubauer, and the drivers Fangio and Moss). But I dare anyone to deny that was an iconic era, and one that didn't take anything away from Formula 1's heritage, history, and relevance.

It's not that it took them years to realize it, I think it's just them figuring out it's another cost cutting measure they can take to help the teams out (which is what they want, including reduced testing and curfew hours, factory development time, etc.).

I don't think it's some conspiracy to slow down Merc at all, that's drawing a long bow. Viewing figures are going up in the UK, only down in Italy (for obvious reasons) as far as I know. This is much better than the Red Bull domination, at least we have two drivers in the fight.

FRIC just is not state of the art. Merc's just brilliant in applying an old theory and getting it to work on the modern stage. FRIC also poses no threat to driver safety, like I said before, it's already at its peak potential in the Merc - all the FIA has to do is reduce overall downforce potential on the car again and it cancels out any substantial FRIC performance gains.

Btw, this thread can stay, it's fine.

I think Rosberg vs. Hamilton is plenty enough show. How often do we have a season that isn't dominated by just a couple of drivers? You don't hear many people retrospectively complaining about the 1989 Senna vs. Prost season dominated by the McLaren drivers.

The FIA should ban FRIC for next season, before teams have wasted too much time developing it for their 2015 cars. Not midway through the 2014 one with immediate effect. That just stinks of sour grapes and points to either Di Montezemalo or Mateschitz making hollow threats.

I really, highly, doubt that the FIA will ban it from Germany on. This is the only political move they're making, putting teams on their toes and getting them a bit paranoid.
 
I really, highly, doubt that the FIA will ban it from Germany on. This is the only political move they're making, putting teams on their toes and getting them a bit paranoid.

I was assuming that's what had been proposed (I couldn't read the Autosport article on the subject because of their usage limits to non subscribers) ;)
 
I was assuming that's what had been proposed (I couldn't read the Autosport article on the subject because of their usage limits to non subscribers) ;)
It has been proposed from Germany. It will happen in 2015 regardless, but the FIA wants the ban in place straight away. However, they will need the unanimous agreement of the teams first.
 
I was assuming that's what had been proposed (I couldn't read the Autosport article on the subject because of their usage limits to non subscribers) ;)

That's the FIA position. However, IF the teams, UNANIMOUSLY, ask for a delay in the enforcement of this ban (up to the end of this season), the FIA won't object.

In short, the FIA washed their hands, if the ban is enforced from Germany they'll always say it isn't their fault if the teams can't even agree on this.

EDIT - I'm too slow ... :dopey:
 
Sorry, but you've got it the wrong way around - the FIA needs unanimous approval to introduce any mid-season changes to the technical regulations. The ban will happen in 2015, one way or another, but the FIA want it in place now.

I suspect that they know the teams won't agree to it, but they have made the pronouncement now because the 2015 regulations haven't been finalised. If FRIC was still legal, most teams would design their cars around it. But this way, they know it will be illegal, and will start exploring other alternatives.
 
I'll quote "AUTOSPORT"

Following the British Grand Prix, Formula 1 teams received an FIA technical directive that aims to ban hydraulically interconnected suspension, better known as FRIC.

While not coming completely out of the blue, as the FIA had plans in place to ban the system as part of the cost-cutting measures, the urgency in the technical directive did come as a surprise.


F1 teams need to unanimously agree to run the system until the end of the year, or it will be banned for the next race in Germany in just under two weeks' time. This presents the F1 pack with a huge technical hurdle to overcome - potentially within a very short timescale.
 
The issue I have with this is that it nearly sounds like a backmarker team is complaining that other teams are doing better than them and by rubbing the palms with grease, have gotten F1 to make a change to the season due to "politics".

You should probably stop watching F1... and ignore the last 60 years of F1... :)

It's always been the way, as in any super-technical sport like yachting or championship-knitting there are always a number of ways to play the overall "game".

It's not always a bad thing either, it's actually part of the way that regulation evolves. In sports like this the engineers are as much gamekeeper as poacher, that's what drives competitive development of a Formula.
 
That's an off topic remark, bring it to the attention of the moderators if you want. However, since it was posted and not commented since by anyone from the mod squad, I feel a reply is due, and since I'm the one questioned, I'll be the one replying. If the mods here think the question and the reply are inappropriate, remove/replace/delete at will. As of now, I'll quickly state my case.
- Firstly, this is not about technical parts, it is about a "coup d'état" performed by the FIA, with technical parts as a blatant excuse, that could greatly impact the remainder of this season. In short, this thread is mainly about the FIA and whatever is behind this surprise decision, with its probable immediate impact on Mercedes current domination.

It's not a damn coup, no reason to turn this into conspiracy hour. Why isn't it a coup simple, the FIA do this all the time as I demonstrated to PM. So yeah I do believe it warrants being moved, but just like you said in your long winded opening, I did see the mods make action so I decided to post in here. It's about the technical regs, the thread I liked is about technical regs changes/shake ups/and staff through the season. Seems like a pretty clear connection in why I'd say this should go there. The fact that you and pretty much everyone agrees how it can greatly impact the season is even more reason it should go there since that's the idea of the other thread.

- Secondly, a matter of this relevance, regardless of being (or not) about mechanic or aero design and parts, deserves its own thread, and this for two reasons: a) there's a lengthy a detailed discussion to be had about it; b) this subforum gains in its clarity and "ease-of-use" by having the relevant topics covered in threads whose title is clear on what's being discussed inside.

The title it quite clear. It talks about Aero and Mechanical parts, now I'm sure even you can figure that portion out. You know what aero bits are, right? Wings, turning veins, endplates, roll hoop design, brake ducting design. And then Mechanical parts like the Engine and the hybrid systems that work with them for example. Then there is the "design predictions to win the WDC/WCC" which basically to anyone reading should say what designs and or changes in them will help promote a team above others to win. So I find it hard to see how the ease of use (since many have used it properly 2012 and 2014 version) is in threat. Also I feel that your need to create a lengthy discussion on your own is what fuels this, not for the greater good.

- Thirdly, and closely related to the prior paragraph, I do hold an ancient grudge against "catch all" threads. The site's policy about them has been variable throughout the ages ( :D ) and each moderator has probably his own ideas about them, as is to be expected. I strongly dislike threads like the "General Le Mans" or "General" wnything else. If Raikkonen would decide to end his career tomorrow (Lauda style), I would open a thread about it, I wouldn't post about such a big event in the "general 2014 driver change" thread.

I figured as much, which is why I called it out, I have a grudge against Forum clutter which should be every persons job to help prevent and maintain. If the mods feel clutter isn't occurring then we move on, as I did up until now. And if you did post about it it would get moved which is why this one doesn't make sense. The Monza potentially getting the axe which is just as much news worthy as this, got moved. So I don't see how this is special beyond your rhetoric that it is.

Threads and thread titles are the front door to anyone arriving at a subforum, to check what's new. But that's just how I see it, and I'm in no way entitled to change gtplanet's way of organizing its forums - and the same applies to you, obviously - so let whoever is in charge merge threads, or divide them as they see fit.

Well I rather bring it up, so those mods reading it can decide on it, contrary to popular belief they are human and the simple fact is they're not going to remember a thread as readily as someone who constantly posts in it (me for example). Thus it's a good rule of thumb to bring it to attention so they can investigate further. If nothing comes from it then life goes on. Which is what you should have done rather than poke me with a stick because as I said I had moved on, if I want to bitch about I would have messaged them after posting or posted a second post crying how I don't understand. I didn't because I left it up to them as you say.*

*put in bold because that's the important piece

--------------------------
Back on topic,
I think it is baffling that the FIA thinks anyone will believe it took them a few years to realize the FRIC suspensions could provide an aero advantage for those using them. So this is a case where everyone (FIA and teams) know exactly WHY this is happening and everyone understands that the real reason isn't the one stated.

So, what is the real reason? The way I see it an attempt to close the gap between Mercedes and the other teams. Which begs the question: who is behind this? And I'll say Bernie Ecclestone or whoever is running the show.

And this is just wrong. I'm a guy that likes a good show, no problems with that. But a series that is supposedly about state of the art, cutting edge technology, cannot lose its soul because of the show. I understand if fans want to watch cars going at impossible speeds with their bumpers only a few milimeters apart. But that isn't F1. Each series has its own DNA and it must keep faithful to it or else fans will trade it for something else. And F1 isn't about sparks or engine loudness, nor is it about close racing from start to flag. It is about the best drivers in the entire world driving the most technologically advanced cars in the entire world, and do it all over the world too.

I understand technology being stopped for safety reasons. Or to make the drivers shine (the old debate on aero grip versus mechanical grip) But I don't understand technological advancements, clearly in a department that can translate to better road cars in the future (suspension), being stopped because ... the "show" is suffering.

I suppose the "show" was suffering too during the post war "Silver Arrows" dominance (usually associated to Neubauer, and the drivers Fangio and Moss). But I dare anyone to deny that was an iconic era, and one that didn't take anything away from Formula 1's heritage, history, and relevance.

It's obviously an attempt to close the gap, in order to improve the "show". Which is asinine because the show is moving along just fine, now perhaps I state this as a long time MGP fan and an even longer time Hamilton fan. However, I only need to point out a few races that show the season doesn't need mid season FIA fixing. And the only reason why they're going for this is because they think it will slow up one or two teams, because they can't find good fixes for the "entertainment factor".

Better question to pose to people is, do you want this artificial manipulation of rule changes for no reason, because the exhaust note isn't to your old conservative myopic liking? Or would you rather have a true F1 where the better team doing the better job of engineering wins because they're top of the league drivers put them there as well?

Good find, and further irritates.
 
It's fine, as is. Since this isn't a pre-season discussion of the technology, but rather a mid-season discussion of rule changes affecting F1, and not what you'd expect to find in a speculation thread.
 
I'll quote "AUTOSPORT"

...snip...

F1 teams need to unanimously agree to run the system until the end of the year, or it will be banned for the next race in Germany in just under two weeks' time. This presents the F1 pack with a huge technical hurdle to overcome - potentially within a very short timescale.

Looks like Autosport had it backwards. Formula1's site confirms the teams would have to agree unanimously to ban it for Germany onwards, otherwise the FIA can't make it go into effect until 2015. And the likelihood of a unanimous agreement to scrap their FRIC mid-season? Probably nil :)
 
Looks like Autosport had it backwards. Formula1's site confirms the teams would have to agree unanimously to ban it for Germany onwards, otherwise the FIA can't make it go into effect until 2015.
Yeah, it's there to prevent the FIA from changing too much and giving the teams no time to react.

Or, worse, to stop a team from strategically challenging a rival's car, forcing a change in the regulations and effectively hampering them for the rest of the season.

And the likelihood of a unanimous agreement to scrap their FRIC mid-season?
Like I said, I think they did it deliberately before teams started getting carried away with FRIC designs for their 2015 cars.
 
Can I have a link to the F1 site article? I can't find it and every article I've read says the teams have to agree to continue running FRIC, they probably just copy and pasted Autosport.
 
I've read the article but I can't see anything which says whether the teams have to unanimously agree for or against FRIC for the remainder of the season.
 
I've read the article but I can't see anything which says whether the teams have to unanimously agree for or against FRIC for the remainder of the season.
It's the way every mid-season change has been done. If the FIA tried to change that and give themselves the power to change the technical regulations mid-season without the agreement of the teams, we'd know about it because the teams would scream blue murder.
 
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