Funny things RICErs say (radically immature car enthusiasts)

[Bo]

Getting narrower tires to save weight is like removing your turbo to save 10kg

99% of people doing so would never ever be able to push their car to such a limit where huge tyres would make a performance difference. Less weight, better ride, feels a lot more fun in everyday driving.

 

[Harry6784]

Depends on the motor you have. Try and fit economy tires on a car with 400lb-ft of torque and you'll be doing a burnout at every set of lights.

You can get away with it in small cars since traction in a straight line won't be an issue. I have 16" 195's on my Corolla and 17" 275's on my Trans Am. I wouldn't say the Corolla is "more fun" but I do push it harder and take it to it's limit a LOT more than my Trans Am. It has to do with the fact that since it's so easy to be on the limit of traction, it can be predictable and thus allow you do drive "enthusiastically" without worrying about ending up in a ditch.

 

[Slash]

Depends on the motor you have. Try and fit economy tires on a car with 400lb-ft of torque and you'll be doing a burnout at every set of lights.

This is exactly why my buddy is going with bigger rubber on his Mustang. He's sick and tired of roasting them through third gear half throttle.


Granted, his tires are about as wide as this at the moment:

 

[Azuremen]

Dude.

I'm not trying to be a "mini-mod", I'm saying that because the thread doesn't need another blown-out-of-proportion arguement. It would just get out of hand really fast. And in a way, it would just end up being immature.

That is exactly what playing mini-mod means - posting solely to police the actions in a thread. I'm saying this more so you are aware than anything.

In some aspects, that isn't the case. Bigger tires will increase weight, and can hinder the performance of a car. They also perform worse in winter climates...

The weight isn't much of an issue from the tire as much of the wheel, and even then it depends on what kind of performance you are talking about. And than in turn comes down to the power band and torque of a car. A great example, amusingly, is the RX-8 as it got slower trap speeds over the years because of increasing wheel and tire sizes.

Of course, you can run smaller radius tires that are still wider and effectively change gear ratios, in turn changing acceleration.

As for the snow bit, you have be getting very wide tires and wheels in that case, and most people that changing wheels and tires about end up having a winter set anyhow. Makes very little sense to run a high performance compound in the snow, regardless of size, as they don't function well below 40F in many cases. Likewise, a cheap set of snow tires is still insanely better than any set of all-season tires.

Obvious troll is obvious. Leave him alone he'll eventually find another thread to derail.

Getting narrower tires to save weight is like removing your turbo to save 10kg

Now if you're talking about wheel diameter you would be correct...

Yup, that decade long member is a troll that hasn't been banned

And of course you'd post the picture of the muscle car head versus hard park Honda. I wonder what happens when you run into one of those all go/some show imports.

As for the wheel/tire bit, shaving 10kg per wheel is around a 40kg impact on the dynamics of the car from what I recall. It isn't trivial at all to run lighter wheels at the track or autocross.

 

[R5]

Depends on the motor you have. Try and fit economy tires on a car with 400lb-ft of torque and you'll be doing a burnout at every set of lights.

You can get away with it in small cars since traction in a straight line won't be an issue. I have 16" 195's on my Corolla and 17" 275's on my Trans Am. I wouldn't say the Corolla is "more fun" but I do push it harder and take it to it's limit a LOT more than my Trans Am. It has to do with the fact that since it's so easy to be on the limit of traction, it can be predictable and thus allow you do drive "enthusiastically" without worrying about ending up in a ditch.

Watch it now!

Also, I think fitting skinny tyres is fine on a relatively high BHP car (let's take the BMW M3 as an example) as it has electronic stability aid which will cut out.

Fitting skinny tyres to a car will have its problems, but really so do wide tyres. I'd probably stick to what the manufacturer suggests unless you know how to set it up properly. I mean, look at BMW with the i8. Quick car, skinny tyres.

It's about the engineering, more so than the tyres.

 

[Slash]

The setup for good handling doesn't just come from the tires and its various sizes but the whole package.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Those tires simply are not safe though. For a car which you can daily, and use at the track, a 10 mm or 20 mm increase is only going to slightly improve lap times.

 

[Harry6784]

Also, I think fitting skinny tyres is fine on a relatively high BHP car (let's take the BMW M3 as an example) as it has electronic stability aid which will cut out.

Fitting skinny tyres to a car will have its problems, but really so do wide tyres. I'd probably stick to what the manufacturer suggests unless you know how to set it up properly. I mean, look at BMW with the i8. Quick car, skinny tyres.

It's about the engineering, more so than the tyres.

Well the E92's have a 265/35/19, and E46's have 255/35/18 in the rear which are not at all considered "skinny". Electronic aids cutting it out don't compensate for the reduced grip, it just doesn't allow you to surpass the limits of grip the tires provide.

While you're correct that just fitting the widest tires you can find won't necessarily make you faster, installing wider tires is generally a good way to improve handling if done correctly. I know that for my car at least, the preferred autocross tire setup would be 275/35/17 up front and 305/35/17 in the rear. Depends on your car and what you're doing with it.

The setup for good handling doesn't just come from the tires and its various sizes but the whole package.

Yep. Another big factor is tire compound.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

On my car, the ideal tire setup is P225/45R/17, with lightweight rims. Even though the tires are bigger, the lightweight rims actually reduce the unsprung weight. Then, some upgraded brake pads... Those changes are worth 2-3 seconds per lap/run.

I have been looking at Sparco Assetto Gara rims with Toyo Proxes....

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Harris' video is an exaggeration to prove a point, but that point remains; that C63 on something like 205's would still be a lot of fun, more predictable at the limit, and provide a more accessible avenue to said limit. As an added benefit, they'd be cheaper than the stock sizes... though I guess that'd be balanced out by how quickly you'd go through them.

A wider tire will only slightly improve lap times, you're right. Which is why it's strange you could make this sort of declaration so recently:

Bigger tires is one of the best ways to make a bland car more fun.

Your car's running what, 205's stock? A 165hp, 4WD, 3200lb-ish automatic vehicle? Yep, over-tired.

I could swear this sort of discussion came up earlier in this section (the different sides of the "what constitutes 'good handling'" debate), but it really shouldn't be surprising that some people would rather have access to fun the majority of the time they spend in their car (ie. not on a track) versus the inconsequential couple seconds they can maybe shave off some lap time the small remaining amount of time. Monkey's point, as clear as day, in the video.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

And safety on the road is unimportant? I would indeed rather have a controllable, safe car.

You're a moderator, you should share the viewpoint of safety over fun, except at the track.

As it happens, my Impreza is prone to lift-off oversteer (because of a huge rear anti-roll-bar), so wider summer tires would be a good thing. Safe is fast. Safe is fun. Being able to trust your daily is more important than being unable to avoid drifting your car.


That is why that Mercedes was tested in a controlled environment. Can you imagine if a cyclist ran a red? Bye bye cyclist. I refuse to be that guy who kills the cyclist in a plume of tire smoke because "I should get stupidly small tires and drift on public roads"

That is something a radically immature car enthusiast would say.

 

[Slash]

So now you are going to tell him how to be a moderator?

 

[Harry6784]

So now you are going to tell him how to be a moderator?

Here we go...

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

So now you are going to tell him how to be a moderator?

When I signed up for this site, I was told not to discuss illegal activities including street racing and reckless driving... I am saying that refuse to discuss making my car unsafe.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

And safety on the road is unimportant? I would indeed rather have a controllable, safe car.

A controllable car is one with responses you can predict. Wide, super-grippy tires are a knife-edge balancing act; they're great at gripping the road, right until the moment they're not. Then they get scary.

You're a moderator, you should share the viewpoint of safety over fun, except at the track.

What in the world does my position of enforcing some simple user rules on a gaming website have to do with my view on car safety?

Are you suggesting safety is less important when you're on the track?

Are you going to lecture me on safety after you stubbornly refused to accept you were running around Southern Ontario with illegal headlights for the better part of a year, and actually told members that it was the other road users' problem?

As it happens, my Impreza is prone to lift-off oversteer (because of a huge rear anti-roll-bar), so wider summer tires would be a good thing. Safe is fast. Safe is fun. Being able to trust your daily is more important than being unable to avoid drifting your car.

So you've modified your car to handle in a way that's unsafe on public roads (read: oversteer). Brilliant.

Fast =/= fun. A ride in any modern performance Audi bar the R8 is pretty good evidence...

That is why that Mercedes was tested in a controlled environment. Can you imagine if a cyclist ran a red? Bye bye cyclist. I refuse to be that guy who kills the cyclist in a plume of tire smoke because "I should get stupidly small tires and drift on public roads"

Er, all tests should be done in a controlled environment. That's what a test is. I'll remind you again: those tires were an exaggerated size to prove the point. Surely even you recognize Harris isn't actually recommending everybody hop on a bunch of space-savers.

That is something a radically immature car enthusiast would say.

Right up there with plans to buy an expensive carbon hood for their daily-driven economy car, or announcing plans to open a tuning garage.

 

[Azuremen]

And safety on the road is unimportant? I would indeed rather have a controllable, safe car.

You're a moderator, you should share the viewpoint of safety over fun, except at the track.

So this is what I was talking about, when you tell people what they can and can't say.

As it happens, my Impreza is prone to lift-off oversteer (because of a huge rear anti-roll-bar), so wider summer tires would be a good thing. Safe is fast. Safe is fun. Being able to trust your daily is more important than being unable to avoid drifting your car.

I've daily driven several MR2s and lift-off oversteer was NEVER an issue on public roads, even on crap tires. It is clear you are going entirely too fast if you feel lift-off is an issue on public roads.

That is why that Mercedes was tested in a controlled environment. Can you imagine if a cyclist ran a red? Bye bye cyclist. I refuse to be that guy who kills the cyclist in a plume of tire smoke because "I should get stupidly small tires and drift on public roads"

It is pretty clear that he wasn't telling everyone to get emergency skinny tires for daily driving. The point was, since you seem incapable of pulling sarcasm and dramatic effect out of anything, that many cars are over tired these days. Especially sports cars. Only recently have manufactuers started to break away from this again with things like the BRZ and such. If you look at the development cycle of the Miata, they have tried to keep the limits and tiring similar for newer models to maintain the experience. I could put 215's on my M3 all around with a moderately aggressive summer compound and still stop faster than 95% of road going cars, despite the fact it came with 235's from the factory.

That is something a radically immature car enthusiast would say.

The irony is so profound here I might suffer from a stroke.

When I signed up for this site, I was told not to discuss illegal activities including street racing and reckless driving... I am saying that refuse to discuss making my car unsafe.

Just stop posting. Please. For your own sake.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I don't test my car on the road. I know about the oversteer because of Snokhana 2014. And that is the point I an making. That was a closed course racing competition, within which many drivers safely exceeded their car's grip and their own talent - myself included.

And, while I only hit a few pylons during my second run, if those pylons had been people, they would've been killed. I am responsible for my actions as much as anyone else.

And I fixed the headlights, so that is now irrelevant.

 

[Slash]

 

[Azuremen]

I don't test my car on the road. I know about the oversteer because of Snokhana 2014. And that is the point I an making. That was a closed course racing competition, within which many drivers safely exceeded their car's grip and their own talent - myself included.

So then why would it be an issue of safety in daily driving? Why bring it up, what relevance does it have?

It would be like saying no one should own an MR or RR car because they are prone to oversteer by design, wildly more so than ANY Subaru will ever be.

Also, great job ignoring the rest of the commentary thrown your way. I fully expect you to play the "stop picking on me" card soon and back out of the conversation shortly. But I'd love to see you keep going. Hell, I'll even buy you a shovel so you can keep digging.

 

[Imari]

I don't test my car on the road. I know about the oversteer because of Snokhana 2014. And that is the point I an making. That was a closed course racing competition, within which many drivers safely exceeded their car's grip and their own talent - myself included.

And, while I only hit a few pylons during my second run, if those pylons had been people, they would've been killed. I am responsible for my actions as much as anyone else.

And I fixed the headlights, so that is now irrelevant.

So your point is that your car is dangerous when driven too fast, but you don't drive like that on public roads?

If the car is in a position where lifting off could cause oversteer with potentially harmful consequences, it's not a fault with the car. It's a fault with the driver.

 

[Bopop4]

It would be like saying no one should own an MR or RR car because they are prone to oversteer by design, wildly more so than ANY Subaru will ever be.

The original drift machine.



Avoiding an accident is going to have more to do with how much attention you're paying to the road rather than what tire width you have.

A Chevy Sonic will outmaneuver a Corvette if it sees the problem half a second sooner.


As Azuremen said, you have to be going quite fast in order to get any car to have oversteer on the road.
Just because something oversteers

As it happens, my Impreza is prone to lift-off oversteer (because of a huge rear anti-roll-bar), so wider summer tires would be a good thing.

If you need wider tires to make a car safe, then you've done something horribly wrong with the setup.

Safe isn't fast.

Just had to fix the typo.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

It was on snow, at a rallycross event. I have never experienced oversteer on public roads.

 

[Imari]

It was on snow, at a rallycross event. I have never experienced oversteer on public roads.

Do you find that wider summer tyres help on snow, then?

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Do you find that wider summer tyres help on snow, then?

That's why I specified "summer" tires - implying that I also drive on winter-only tires during the winter, in accordance with Québec laws. They are OEM size.

 

[Imari]

That's why I specified "summer" tires - implying that I also drive on winter-only tires during the winter, in accordance with Québec laws. They are OEM size.

But you don't get oversteer on public roads, because you're a responsible driver. You get oversteer when you're flogging it on snow at closed events. So why would you need wider summer tyres?

 

[Slash]

Do you find that wider summer tyres help on snow, then?

Anyone who says yes to that deserves to get slapped.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

The original drift machine.

and the drift machine that followed.

Anyone who says yes to that deserves to get slapped.

Yes...

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

But you don't get oversteer on public roads, because you're a responsible driver. You get oversteer when you're flogging it on snow at closed events. So why would you need wider summer tyres?

Because I am aware of the oversteer. If I attend a dry or wet track day this year, I would like the increased grip.


However, it would be incredibly irresponsible to even test the limits of grip on the road.

Just because I know how my car handles on-track, does not mean I drive irresponsibly on the road. Remember the bad shift in the Accent? The one that caused me to spin? I wasn't even at the limit, nor driving. irresponsibly. I just misjudged the RPM on a downshift in a car I was acclimatizing to.


Sometimes, people make mistakes. Don't let those mistakes happen at reckless speeds on a public road. Don't. That is dangerous.


The braking/stopping distance should be among your only concerns when buying tires for a car you won't be driving on the track. If you are driving the car on the track, make the car safe enough to drive on the street or pull it on a trailer. Your life isn't worth the few moments of fun.


This is the last post I will make in this thread for a while. I believe I have made my point, which is simply that you should only increase or decrease your tire size for issues regarding performance for track use. Don't drive an unsafe car, regardless iof how much fun it is. Your life isn't worth the fun in the trade.

Edit: I wouldn't trade my next breath for a more fun daily driver. Maybe a few thousand dollars for track days, but not my life. Please join me in pledging to drive according to laws, safely.

 

[Slash]

and the drift machine that followed.

Yes...

Go put a set of 235s on a car and drive in the snow on the street then try a set of 318s in the same condition and tell me which one doesn't slide all over the place.

 

[Harry6784]

I could hardly get out of my driveway with my 275's in the snow