FWD so useless..

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Don't get me started with the 'cheap wine' comments about V8's. :P As for superchargers.....World War 2 called, they want their technology back. :lol:

And with the TVR, what do you think I won British Lightweights with?? ;) Stock power, and a Stage 1 weight reduction puts it to 996kg. :sly: Stock weight is 1060kg. I just checked the stats then.
 
Haha! mafia and Holden, you guys crack me up ;)

Very interesting thread this has become. I am really impressed with that Accord as well. So sad the 2 Skylines got pwned. Don't see that too often.

Im gonna post my RS specs up in a bit mafia_boy, thanks.
 
The problem came when you had the Audi A4 quattro's in BTCC which lead to the FWD only rule that stayed there for a few years. Plus, if you look at the BTCC, they have got the RWD BMW's in there again, and they aren't having it their own way in the championship, the Seat's & Honda's & Vauxhall's have been the one's dominating it the past year or two.....all FWD. :)

Look at the WTCC nowadays aswell.....the turbo diesel Leon is dominating that championship over the BMW. FWD beating RWD, convincingly.

Sssst... rules balancing. The WTCC constantly balances the rules to keep RWD cars from being dominant. Otherwise no one else but BMW would enter.

One of the debates between clio owners (at least here in the UK) is whether the fwd clio 172 cup is a better handling car than the rwd clio v6.
Some argue the clio cup is a quicker point to point car because of the confidence the set up gives you when cornering at speed and they dislike the unpredictable snap in traction that V6's are renowned for, V6 owners on the other hand prefer their superior power and argue the grip is huge in the dry when driven correctly. Yet compare the two in GT4 (standard for standard) and there is a much larger margin of difference, partly due to the unnaturally tame handling of the V6 and the poorer than real life handling of the 172.

What's even more interesting is that differences between the two V6s in real life seem reversed in the game. I don't remember which, but one V6 was supposedly more nervous in real life, but in the game, it's the one that's easier to handle.

Getting offtopic, hope you dont mind. Have you tried GT1 at all? That's the only GT game in which it's possible to consistently raise inside tires during cornering (and lose traction that way). It's not entirely realistic, but at least it's an attempt PD made to get some realism into the game while it was still young. Not sure why they changed this.

Because of the flying car issue. They wanted people playing a racing game, not engage in jumping contests. The limit, even as far back as GT1, was that you could not get the car upside down... no matter how badly you drove. By GT3, which would not allow the car to completely leave the ground unless it is jumped (which can happen with bad aero)... this problem became serious enough that it was exploitable for some fun top speed runs, as any member of the 1000mph club can attest to.

In GT4, they limit this even further. But in this insane obsession to keep cars from going airborne, PD has sort of lost the plot. So what if somebody accidentally flips an LMP once in a while? That's realistic. And by making it impossible, you're fiddling with the physics engine to the point that it's affecting the driving part.

GT1 was decent... but playing it again after a long while, the physics seem crude, and the gameplay, even cruder. It still compares very well to what passes for "racing" elsewhere... but compared to GT3 or even GT4, it's crude.

And I'll pretend I didn't hear that boat anchor remark ;) I don't go around saying L4s are what power my supercharger.

That's sig-gable. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Simply... the car with the best balance and traction is the car that will win the race. FF cars can nail the balance part, and the lack of excess weight makes them lighter than FR cars, and gives them less power loss. But it's the lack of driving traction that hampers them in racing situations. On the perfect tire, an FF car CAN beat an FR car, given the same basic dimensions, exact same engine, gearing, etcetera, around the racetrack. That's because it can be made lighter than an FR car, and it'll put down more power due to less parasitic losses.

But there is no perfect tire. Which means that an FF car will always carry some kind of handicap on certain tracks. On some tracks, the FF car can still be faster, but you need the right balance of corners... those that won't penalize the FF car for having less drive traction on corner exit. Of course... in racing, there are lots of ways to minimize the FF's handicap... BUT...

The MR car would leave both for dead... perfect tire or not... because it'll have the best dynamic weight balance of the three... every time.
 
I'm not a fan of fwd cars, in the game or real life. Even though I own a fwd car in real life.

I'll have to disagree with fwd cars being better balanced. In fwd cars, the engine is at the front, as well as the tranny and driveline, making the car nose-heavy.

Rwd cars allow the engine to be mounted farther back from the front wheel, resulting in better f/r weight distribution. In some cars (Corvette, some others) the tranny is also mounted at the rear to give even better f/r weight distribution.

Fwd cars have other disadvantages, traction, tire wear, etc.
 
I'm glad people enjoy our debates, don't know why but I am. Because me and Mafs are both Aussies it's in our blood to have such heated debates :sly: All taken light-heartedly of course. :dopey:

Now- Mafs, last time I checked Superchargers won us that war, and they will do the same for me :P

Those TVRs are crazy, just so light, forget Lotus.

Adamgp- Hey, the Porsche 928 has the gearbox in the rear :dopey: Same with the new GT-R.
 
Holden, I've got a secret: SOME Porsches have the whole drivetrain in the rear!!!1 omfgrevelationz!!!1 ;) There's a reason that superchargers are still in use today, and that is the fact that they work! There's no waiting for a turbine to spool up before it can begin supplying pressurized air, there IS parasitic loss which is easily countered by the additional power being supplied, and with positive displacement superchargers, the fuel is atomized a little more efficiently by the screws/turbines/whatever, not to mention being pre-heated by the compression itself.

Good debate, though. 👍
 
The MR car would leave both for dead... perfect tire or not... because it'll have the best dynamic weight balance of the three... every time.

Do you mean factory wise, or general wise? If incase you meant both...
Though thats physically true, your statement, I don't know.. I havn't seen anything THAT impressive out of factory MR cars that makes them standout by their unique drivetrains. RWD cars do things just as good if not better from my experience.
 
It may be pre-heated before combustion but it doesn't mean it's more efficient. Properly tuned, a turbo car will use burn through fuel more efficiently due to it being pushed through the motor twice, and as a result will use less fuel per km and will actually IMPROVE fuel economy by as much as 10%.

Don't believe me?? Saab have already been doing it for over a dozen years. :cool: BMW have now done a similar thing with their 335i twin turbo and Mercedes are jumping on the bandwagon too. A mild boost increase (around the 0.4bar/6psi. range) with sensible driving allows the motor to get that bit more power but be able to basically 'recycle' previously wasted unburnt fuel dumping out the exhaust by running it through the turbine, compressing it up and back into the motor.

Supercharging is great, if you're running P51 Mustang's or NHRA Top Fuel. If it worked in Grandpa's day it's going to work now. :P jk.

But seriously, these days, a lot more people with 1000hp+ cars are turning to turbocharging over supercharging due to the power and reliability advantages being given overall. I'm not saying supercharging is dead, far from it because it still has good uses in motorsport, especially in drag racing. But even in drag racing, supercharging was thought to be the be all and end all of performance upgrades.....not any longer. Look at the Imports running 6's & 7's all day. Little 2 litre motors + turbo = 1400hp+ Use the 2JZ Supra motor, and you're looking at over 2000hp.
 
I've never heard of an import running 6s and 7s, definitely not street legal. We've had this supercharger vs turbo debate before.
 
Performance FF vehicles are the best for the money, and usually have better power to weight ratios. SOME may be front heavy but it really doesn't matter oppose to a RWD that weights 200-300lbs+ more. Comparing a Corvette to an FF doesn't really make any sense to me. The Vette is a super car, and FFs are not. However if I were to compare a Cooper S(2600-2700lbs) to a Mustang GT(3500-3800lbs) on a tight road course similar to a canyon road or mountain pass. I would consider the victor to be pretty obvious. FFs and RWD both have disadvantages.
 
Once I get a Mustang GT in GT5:P I could test that on Eiger Nordwand. I have an Integra Type R for an opposition.
 
Once I get a Mustang GT in GT5:P I could test that on Eiger Nordwand. I have an Integra Type R for an opposition.


The Mustang GT on Eiger can't hold a candle to the Integra Type R. (I have tested both)

and the Cooper S can't keep up with the Mustang GT on Eiger.
 
I've never heard of an import running 6s and 7s, definitely not street legal.
Who said it was street legal?? For street legal cars, back it off a tiny bit, because a lot of them run low 8's, street registered. Here's a couple. The first is GRUMP2, that can run 8.2's, this is one of him doing 8.3.

The 2nd is one of Sydney's most famous WRX's....DBRONX. Rigoli built, runs 8s, and is still street 'legal' too. :D


We've had this supercharger vs turbo debate before.
Link please. :)
 
Thanks VIPER, you just saved me some time.

Mafs- Don't you remember that debate, you showed me some imports that were supercharged with blowers out the bonnet?
 
Thanks VIPER, you just saved me some time.

Mafs- Don't you remember that debate, you showed me some imports that were supercharged with blowers out the bonnet?

:lol: Yeah, I do now. :) I remember all the comments about imports that they couldn't look tough with superchargers. :lol: Shot that theory down pretty well too. ;)
 
RJ wins, and I lost. I still think superchargers are better for off-the-line power and torque, and general widespread power and torque.
 
Do you mean factory wise, or general wise? If incase you meant both...
Though thats physically true, your statement, I don't know.. I havn't seen anything THAT impressive out of factory MR cars that makes them standout by their unique drivetrains. RWD cars do things just as good if not better from my experience.

Uhmmm... The Porsche Boxster... which has become the de facto point of comparison for moderately priced sportscars. Sure, sure... it's not the fastest thing on four wheels, but the balance is good.

The Ferrari 360 and 430. Again, the de facto point of comparison for sports cars in their price range.

The Porsche 911... though it's rear-engined... it has some of the advantages of mid-engined cars, though the extreme rear-heaviness had to be corrected through a number of suspension geometry measures... including moving the front wheels back from the front of the car, to remedy the weight balance somewhat... which also gives the 911 a ridiculously short wheelbase for its size.

Then there's the Toyota MR series... the Porsche 914... the Audi R8... the Ford GT... the Lotus Elise/Exige (probably the best example ever of proper dynamic balance)... and so on and so forth.

Regular high powered front-engine rear drive cars simply can't match an MR or RR's traction off the line or out of a corner, not without some specific engineering to move the weight to the rear. That's why rear end gearboxes are starting to become more and more popular (though they're nothing new). A regular FR car will be front-heavy unless it's designed especially not to be. Which is why BMW uses aluminum for its front ends and steel for the rear... to shift the weight balance.

An MR car doesn't have this problem. It's naturally 50:50 or even 40:60 or whatever. Slight rear-heaviness, in fact, is regarded by some as superior, since this reverts to a 50:50 balance under braking, which is important when entering a corner.

I'm not a fan of fwd cars, in the game or real life. Even though I own a fwd car in real life.

I'll have to disagree with fwd cars being better balanced. In fwd cars, the engine is at the front, as well as the tranny and driveline, making the car nose-heavy.

Rwd cars allow the engine to be mounted farther back from the front wheel, resulting in better f/r weight distribution. In some cars (Corvette, some others) the tranny is also mounted at the rear to give even better f/r weight distribution.

Fwd cars have other disadvantages, traction, tire wear, etc.

I agree with the traction and tire wear... but then, I said as much last post.

But I never said FWD cars are better weight balanced. What I meant is that modern FF cars can be given the proper dynamic balance with good suspension design. Which is how a Mini Cooper S can have less apparent understeer than a BMW 3-series... or how a FWD-based rally car like the Evo can be "pointier" on track than a WRX with a better weight balance. Something which is often remarked upon in real-life by testers, and not really seen in Gran Turismo 4. Like I noted earlier... in the game, the Subaru's better weight balance is accurately reflected, but the Evo's suspension trickery that allows it to point into a corner better isn't.

Yes, nose-heaviness is an issue... which is why MR cars are technically superior to FF or FR cars... and even by moving transmission parts on FR cars to the rear or adopting the new FR-midship approach, FR cars are still not quite as quick, out-and-out as an MR car... but you can get around it, also...

You can't quite make an FF car as quick as an MR car, but by good suspension design, and by using a shorter wheelbase (as in the case of the Cooper, and, in fact, most "hot hatches") combined with a trick suspension, you can make an FF car turn on a dime... heavy nose or not... and getting on the gas will kill the oversteer, just like in an AWD car... which makes cheap FF cars great for JWRC. They're quick, nimble and... well... safe.

The old MR short-wheelbasers were even better... but they had a tendency of killing drivers.... simply because all they do is oversteer. Snap-over on the brakes... snap-over on throttle-lift... power-over on throttle-application... oversteer due to the mass of the engine behind the driver... oh... they were fun to watch. :D :D :D

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Anyway... it's all relative. I've driven FF cars that felt as good as FR cars... FR cars that felt worse than FF cars... and FR cars that felt as-darn-it-good as MR cars (the damn Miata feels like a go-kart... wonderful little thing)... it's all down to the actual design of the car and the suspension. Endemic understeer is a problem mostly of specific suspension design and tire technology... it's not inherent in drivetrain type. Which is why EVO magazine regularly features hot hatches, and why road testers went gaga over the first generation "New Mini"... because these cars are designed to allow tail-out fun. Something that's rare in new cars nowadays. Sure... you can't power-oversteer these little beasts, but there's a lot more joy in getting a corner right than in doing parking lot donuts... though I still enjoy doing the occassional donut or burnout.

Most people who pooh-pooh FF cars just simply haven't driven the right one yet. Give it a chance. A new Mini... an Integra Type R... a Protege... an old Nissan SE-R... or any of the numerous "hot hatches" from Peugeot or Renault. Don't overdrive them, though... set up for the corner, give it a flick, a dab of the brakes, and enjoy the ride... not on public roads, though. :lol:
 
Don't be so sure about those MR cars and the traction comment either. The new GT-R may be one of the best handling out there today and it's front engined. The Corvette beats many a MR cars around a track. M3, RS4, Ferrari 599 (which has awesome traction I hear), there are many front engined vehicles that are just as good sometimes better than Mid engined. Generally mid-engined should be better but because a car is MR doesn't gurantee quality.

PS- If you drive pro physics in GT5 FWD is the best :indiff: RWD spins out at the first sign of throttle.
 
Because of the flying car issue. They wanted people playing a racing game, not engage in jumping contests. The limit, even as far back as GT1, was that you could not get the car upside down... no matter how badly you drove. By GT3, which would not allow the car to completely leave the ground unless it is jumped (which can happen with bad aero)... this problem became serious enough that it was exploitable for some fun top speed runs, as any member of the 1000mph club can attest to.

In GT4, they limit this even further. But in this insane obsession to keep cars from going airborne, PD has sort of lost the plot. So what if somebody accidentally flips an LMP once in a while? That's realistic. And by making it impossible, you're fiddling with the physics engine to the point that it's affecting the driving part.

GT1 was decent... but playing it again after a long while, the physics seem crude, and the gameplay, even cruder. It still compares very well to what passes for "racing" elsewhere... but compared to GT3 or even GT4, it's crude.

No no, I wasn't talking about "flying" cars. I was talking about (in GT1) the ability for some lighter cars to get up on 2 or 3 wheels in a turn, especially if you removed their stabilizers.

I'll agree though..GT1 feels VERY crude whenever I go back. :lol: It's amazing how realistic if felt back in the early days, though....compared to other "arcade" games.
 
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Niky:

I guess I misunderstood what you were saying when you said:

Simply... the car with the best balance and traction is the car that will win the race. FF cars can nail the balance part, and the lack of excess weight makes them lighter than FR cars, and gives them less power loss.

Just about any car, FF, FR, RR, MR, RF, whatever can achieve good balance through suspension work. Just about all cars from the factory (atleast in America) are set up to understeer. Mainly as a safety concern.

I have to disagree with your statement that FR cars can't compete with MR cars. FR Corvettes and, Vipers have taken on and beat alot of the world's best, including MR cars. Other FR cars have done the same.

When building a sports car, it doesn't matter where the engine is or or what wheels are driving the car, ideally the goal is to get the f/r weight distribution as close to 50/50 as possible.

As I stated above, I drive an FF car (supercharged, at that) in real life. While it doesn't handle terrible, it's definately not great.
 
I have to point out that both Corvette and Viper actually have the engine, or at least most of it, behind the front axle, making them front midships.. genuine FR has the engine on top of or in front of the front axle (Audi UR-Quattro etc)

;)
 
Most people who pooh-pooh FF cars just simply haven't driven the right one yet. Give it a chance. A new Mini... an Integra Type R... a Protege... an old Nissan SE-R... or any of the numerous "hot hatches" from Peugeot or Renault. Don't overdrive them, though... set up for the corner, give it a flick, a dab of the brakes, and enjoy the ride... not on public roads, though. :lol:

I strongly agree with this. The important part of a fun FWD car is that they be small, light and have the weight biased toward the front wheels. The first FWD car I owned was an '82 Mazda GLC(323). Mazda tends to make their cars more neutral handling rather than having a tendancy to understeer as most mass production FWD cars do. At less than 1900 lbs, the GLC was very tossable, predictable and forgiving when pushed hard. I had a small amount of "transitional understeer/oversteer". Throttle On; the understeer was barely noticeable. Trailng Throttle; there was a slight oversteer.

In contrast, take something like a Ford Taurus and it will drive like a total Pig when you push it.
I haven't driven one, but I can't imagine the newer Mitsubishi Eclipses would be much fun at the limit, given that heavy v6 and overall heavy weight. (I could be wrong)


In GT4 I drove an older Golf that had that transitional understeer/ oversteer in stock trim. After I added power and suspension I lost that wonderful feeling that If I got in a bit deep, I could just let off a bit and get it back into line. Do any of you tune the suspension to do this and how do you achieve it?

I generally stiffen the rear more than the front and make the ride height higher in the rear of FFs.
Anyone else have favorite tweaks for FF cars?
 
Don't be so sure about those MR cars and the traction comment either. The new GT-R may be one of the best handling out there today and it's front engined. The Corvette beats many a MR cars around a track. M3, RS4, Ferrari 599 (which has awesome traction I hear), there are many front engined vehicles that are just as good sometimes better than Mid engined. Generally mid-engined should be better but because a car is MR doesn't gurantee quality.

PS- If you drive pro physics in GT5 FWD is the best :indiff: RWD spins out at the first sign of throttle.

The thing is... Corvettes can be made to beat other cars in their class.. but this is mainly because they're light... have tons of torque, and have an unkillable engine. In terms of chassis balance, they're still not in the same class as purpose-built mid-engined cars... most of their competition are front and front-mid-ship engined GTs. They don't have a mid-engined competitor of the same engine-size and class.

Yes, ideally, wherever the engine is, 50:50 is the only number that matters (though, like I've said, some prefer 45:55 or so, as it makes the dynamic weight balance 50:50 under braking)... and it's true that putting the engine far behind the front axle can achieve nearly the same result... but putting the engine just in front of the rear axle is even better.... because this means less mass everywhere else on the car.

Simply, a full-midship engine means that all your mass is centered at the middle of the car... giving it lower inertia in turns. With a front-midship... you still have to balance this by putting the gearbox in the back... adding more mass here, lightening here... with a mid-engine... all you need is enough bodywork in front and back to protect the driver and engine. Car minimum, handling maximum.

You'll note that LMPs and Formula cars are mid-engined... that's basically what it takes to get the best balance out of a race car... before you get into the oily suspension bits and start changing things around.

On topic with the GT-R... doesn't count... trick AWD system trumps all... defies physics... and generally causes disbelief and confusion amongst car enthusiasts everywhere. :lol: ...the GT-R's strengths are in good suspension tuning, great tires, an amazing AWD system, and better corner traction than almost anything else currently available. You could see it as the exception that proves the rule... this is what it takes for a front-engined car to beat everything else.


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RE: Tuning in GT4... since you can't change tire sizes... very little you can do to redress that balance... at least... I haven't found any easy or universal solutions... nice to see another Mazda owner here... Mazda is one of those companies that knows how to make FWD handle... it's simply that they build their cars to be responsive to throttle lifts. Even the new Mazda6 does this... lift the throttle or dab the brakes midcorner, and the car will pitch into the turn gamely. It's on my list of possible new cars in the next two years... if we ever get the 2.0 Diesel here...

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RE: RWD in GT5P... have yet to find out... just started in on it. May just be a matter of driving it with the wheel instead of the controller. Will be driving it all week at a local motorshow... we've got a schweeeeet cockpit set-up for a game we're running.
 
FWD work better if you use N1 tires at the back wheels, and N3 tires at the front wheels.
 
FWD work better if you use N1 tires at the back wheels, and N3 tires at the front wheels.

I've tried combinations like that and they sometimes work for me (although I'll usually be using a combo of S2s and S1s) but sometimes such combinations induce such nervousness from the rear, that any benefit from reduced understeer gets replaced by a lack of rear stability.

Some cars start to fishtail (even FWD's) under hard braking, and regaining front-end traction under such conditions can be difficult.
 
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Very true Parnelli, especially on some tight and twisty tracks. Citta Dia Aria and Opera Paris are good examples of getting a FF to oversteer well, aswell as Trial Mountain under fast hard braking after the straight.

However, about the tyre comment from tfujiwara, I tend to disagree with that. You want to get a heap of grip from the rear end to get the car to turn, not to slide around. Stiffer rear springs, dampers & sticky rubber gets the rear turning a lot better. Look at most of the FF circuit cars, their rear ends are usually that stiff that they will lift the inside rear tyre when turning but the springs are allowed to compress to give it some weight transfer and not have the rear end skip across.
 
Very true Parnelli, especially on some tight and twisty tracks. Citta Dia Aria and Opera Paris are good examples of getting a FF to oversteer well, aswell as Trial Mountain under fast hard braking after the straight.

However, about the tyre comment from tfujiwara, I tend to disagree with that. You want to get a heap of grip from the rear end to get the car to turn, not to slide around. Stiffer rear springs, dampers & sticky rubber gets the rear turning a lot better. Look at most of the FF circuit cars, their rear ends are usually that stiff that they will lift the inside rear tyre when turning but the springs are allowed to compress to give it some weight transfer and not have the rear end skip across.

I've noticed on really understeery cars (like the Taurus SHO, PT Curser, and some older muscle cars) it's possible to get them to "behave" by mis-matching tires, but the more I play GT4, the less I'm finding the need to mis-match. 💡

It't funny how that works out. I used to mismatch A LOT in GT1 & 2..not as much in 3.
 
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