FWD Sports Car?

[Eric.]

This is true. I have heard that even when the Elan M100 is pushed to it's limit (or around it) you can feel you are driving a FWD car. The M100 is also considered to be one of the few FWD cars that didn't really feel or perform like other FWD cars. 👍

So it feels like a FWD car but it doesn't feel like a FWD car.



I'm not arguing for FWD just because I have a Civic Si. I wouldn't go around saying its a sports car. I'll happily call it a sport sedan. But the Civic Type R of the same variant is definitely a sports car in my eyes. Same goes for the Focus RS. All Integra Type Rs. Cobalt SS and SRT4 are on par with my Si as far as being a "sports car". And really I hold all three back just by the fact that if you go tell your average person who likes cars that your turbo Neon or supercharged Cobalt is a sports car, they'll laugh at you. But on the other hand if they the passenger in the car on a track driving at 10/10, without knowing exactly what they are in, they'd be willing to reconsider.

In my opinion a sports car is a car that puts the driving experience and driving performance above the usual day-to-day drive. Good handling is a requirement, relative to the other cars in its class. Power isn't a necessity, but having the power to match the handling is another big pointer that its a sports car. A Miata is certainly a sports car, despite lacking power for the earlier models. I'd say two doors, but as Niky said, the Evo and STI are certainly exceptions.

So that boils down to a sports car being a car designed to be driven quickly relative to others, which is the definition that has been posted in here. An Integra Type R is fast in corners and carries good speed on its way to the next one.

So what if there is a base model of it? Does that rule out the pony cars from being pony cars because there are base models with V6s that are meant for being mainstream girls cars?



@Azuremen: Really, a V6 Camry beating a Miata around a road course? I thought you were a bit of a Toyota fanboy...but really?

 

[TVC]

So it feels like a FWD car but it doesn't feel like a FWD car.

No it didn't feel like most other FWD cars at least not until you pushed it to its limits. I was just trying to add to your point.

 

[Horde_R35]

I have said otherwise, because it is not always true. Remember that video you posted that clearly showed a front drive car beating rear drive cars? Rear wheel drive does not always have the best performance, and yes you did say otherwise.

So now we're not even talking about sports cars, we're talking about how you can't get your story straight.

You must have a problem... ! Ive been stating that a FWD sport car can be has fast as a few RWD! That doesnt mean theyre the fastest... and again i didnt said they were... 💡!

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Ive been stating that a FWD sport car can be has fast as a few RWD!

hmm



but then i think the easiest way to settle this is just everything<4WD

 

[///M-Spec]

Let's cool it with the name calling, please.

@Azuremen: Really, a V6 Camry beating a Miata around a road course? I thought you were a bit of a Toyota fanboy...but really?

Depends on the course and the tires on both cars, but I can see this happening.

Switch out the Camry for... say... a V6 Accord coupe with a 6 speed manual and I would say it's more likely than not.


M

 

[Eric.]

If you're referring to me, that was a friendly poke and nothing else.

Besides, he doesn't own a whole fleet of Toyotas anymore.

 

[niky]

Maybe. Maybe not. The original concept car of the early 80s was designed when Lotus was being buddies with Toyota and was FR; but the M100 Elan was developed with GM money around GM engines, and was designed to be FWD at least as early as when Lotus chose what engine they wanted to use.

Lotus can and could have made the front-wheel drivetrain fit in the middle of the car without it costing extra development money and without losing synergy with the Impulse and other GM-branded cars it shared engines with. GM could have put a "suspension and engine by Lotus" on every Isuzu Impulse they built... but they didn't (though they put it on quite a few Isuzu Troopers). So I don't think that marketing was the consideration for the drivetrain decision.

I'm sure MR was considered at the time, but as they were marketing the Elan to a wider customer base, they probably felt that they couldn't get the balance right on a small MR car... or at least right enough to the point that relatively inexperienced owners wouldn't be spinning into hedges.

On a related note:

This is true. I have heard that even when the Elan M100 is pushed to it's limit (or around it) you can feel you are driving a FWD car. The M100 is also considered to be one of the few FWD cars that didn't really feel or perform like other FWD cars. 👍

No, when the Elan is pushed to its limits, it's designed to not oversteer. Which is purely, consciously, an engineering decision.

I've driven lots of front-drivers that let go at the front first, but I've also driven front-drivers that let go at the rear first (sometimes on purpose, sometimes not). It's all in the suspension design.

Let's cool it with the name calling, please.



Depends on the course and the tires on both cars, but I can see this happening.

Switch out the Camry for... say... a V6 Accord coupe with a 6 speed manual and I would say it's more likely than not.


M

If it's the stcock 1989 Miata tires on 14" rims... I'd give the Accord the nod... and if the track has straights longer than 200 meters, hell... even the Camry...

 

[TVC]

No, when the Elan is pushed to its limits, it's designed to not oversteer. Which is purely, consciously, an engineering decision.

I've driven lots of front-drivers that let go at the front first, but I've also driven front-drivers that let go at the rear first (sometimes on purpose, sometimes not). It's all in the suspension design.

I am just saying what I have heard owners/people who have driven it say. I never mentioned oversteer or understeer either so I don't know why you are telling me what it did... Unless you are adding to my post then 👍.

Let me put the post you quoted this way:

The Lotus Elan M100 was able to mask a lot of the problems FWD cars have but even then when it was pushed to it's limits it still had those problems.

 

[homeforsummer]

The Lotus Elan M100 was able to mask a lot of the problems FWD cars have but even then when it was pushed to it's limits it still had those problems.

But then any car would when it's taken out of it's comfort zone. It very much depends how you drive it really. I've seen plenty of race cars understeer off at racing speeds, even RWD ones. I suspect for a car as neutral as the Elan, it would just as likely oversteer on the limit as it would understeer - it all depends how it was driven into the corner.

If anything, I'd suggest that neutrality is a more important concept for a good sports car than an outright ability to power oversteer on the throttle. A car that's adjustable to your inputs is always going to feel better than one that's naturally inclined towards oversteer or understeer.

And again, if a good FWD is adjustable enough I don't see why it can't be a sports car, so long as it still meets the other accepted criteria (built specifically for performance, etc).

 

[///M-Spec]

If you're referring to me, that was a friendly poke and nothing else.

No, it wasn't directed at you specifically.


M

 

[DK]

Front wheel drive cars have no soul, like Sepp Blatter. But some people do try to give them souls, like Spoon. The Spoon Civic in GT4 was the most fun I ever had in an FWD.

 

[Omnis]

Front wheel drive cars have no soul, like Sepp Blatter. But some people do try to give them souls, like Spoon. The Spoon Civic in GT4 was the most fun I ever had in an FWD.

Yeah and you've never driven one.

 

[Famine]

Front wheel drive cars have no soul

When people speak of "soul" in cars, the manufacturer they're usually talking about is Alfa Romeo.

MiTo - FWD; 147 - FWD; 159 - F & 4WD; GT - FWD; Brera - F & 4WD; Spider - FWD. In fact the only RWD model they make is the 8C, and that's the first car they've made without front-driven wheels since 1992.

So, now that ridiculous comment has been debunked, do you have another?

 

[eight6er]

The word "sports" would suggest something that is used in competition, so any car could be considered a sports car, once it is used for a competition

 

[Famine]

The word "sports" would suggest something that is used in competition, so any car could be considered a sports car, once it is used for a competition

Sports car:

Not a sports car:

Apparently.

 

[daan]

Sports car:

Not a sports car:

I know which of those I'd rather race for 24 hours around Snetterton.


But then, I am weird...

 

[homeforsummer]

I know which of those I'd rather race for 24 hours around Snetterton.

But then, I am weird...

I'd join you on that. I wouldn't have to wear brown overalls "just in case" in the 2CV...

 

[Famine]

I agree. I'd rather race the 2CVs. My legs would get tired after a couple of hours and I'd stand a chance of staying ahead of them.

 

[eight6er]

Sports car:

Not a sports car:

Apparently.

Agreed, the second car would be a performance car

 

[Famine]

What, with a 140mph top speed? Doesn't sound very performance to me.

 

[eight6er]

2 seconds 0-60 and can probably corner better than most road cars, sounds performancy to me.

 

[JCE]

Famine I enjoy your replies. I don't even have to do anything as you are making my arguments for me.

And lets finally just admit that FWD cars can be sports cars and end this.

 

[Kryz11]

FWD cars can be a sports car as well.. it has 4 wheels, some can go pretty fast.. Sure they are useless with over 500 HP, but fun to drive at lower HP races.

 

[Famine]

2 seconds 0-60

Three. 2.8 best timed. And of course the 500 hasn't ever turned a wheel.

and can probably corner better than most road cars, sounds performancy to me.

And yet a top speed of just 140mph... My MX-3 can go faster than that and I'm pretty sure that's not a performance car. Our Accord Type-R can too, and neither's that.

 

[niky]

When people speak of "soul" in cars, the manufacturer they're usually talking about is Alfa Romeo.

Kia takes exception to that:

 

[Tornado]

What, with a 140mph top speed? Doesn't sound very performance to me.

Pfft, you can do that in a Hyundai Sonata.

 

[eight6er]

Three. 2.8 best timed. And of course the 500 hasn't ever turned a wheel.



And yet a top speed of just 140mph... My MX-3 can go faster than that and I'm pretty sure that's not a performance car. Our Accord Type-R can too, and neither's that.

So your saying that you think an MX-3 or Accord type R, could compare to an ariel atom around a track, just because they have a similar top speed.

 

[Famine]

So your saying that you think an MX-3 or Accord type R, could compare to an ariel atom around a track, just because they have a similar top speed.

Quick pointer. If you have to say this:

So your saying that

(sic), then you've invented your own interpretation using an assumption, and probably haven't quite grasped the point. What I'm saying is what I said. It needs no assumptions to fill in the gaps, because there are no gaps.

Also, if the track was a flying mile, yes. And you're not really doing anything to further your point that the Atom is a "performance" car when one of its performance statistics (0 to "x", "x" to 0 and top speed) is woeful compared to other performance cars.

 

[eight6er]

So what is your point? You seem to think top speed is the only important factor, ignoring that the atom could probably out perform almost any car on road coarse.

 

[Famine]

So what is your point?

That the Atom cannot be a performance car because one of the important measures of performance sees the Atom being outclassed by pretty much everything with 4 wheels (think - most repwagons are limited to 155mph, 15mph more than the Atom 240 can manage).

You seem to think top speed is the only important factor

No, you think I seem to think that. Had you actually bothered to read the words I typed and not invent your own version of what I said, you'd see I mention that this aspect of the Atom's performance excludes it from the tag of "performance car".

ignoring that the atom could probably out perform almost any car on road coarse.

I'll happily ignore it, what with it being irrelevant. What happens on tracks? Motorsports. We've established - and you agreed - that the Atom isn't a sports car because it isn't used in motorsports.