FWD Sports Car?

[McLaren]

Interesting thought, one I hadn't had before. Technically, yes, because like the BMW it only has one strike against it. It has four doors. I'd add a truck provision to my list, but then again if a person can't distinguish a truck as not being a sports car, then they need to have a little talking to.

You're off your rocker. My Si is more of a sports car than my 5 will ever be. That's a fact, Keef.

That there video shows you a gussied up economy car beating one other gussied up economy car, and three sports cars. I'll be glad to tell you how badass an Integra Type R is, how that 10 year old car car beat a brand new VW R32 around a track, how it can beat your Si around a track, etc, and as a matter of fact I just showed you that it performs better than a selection of real sports cars, a Z3, a Miata, and a naturally aspirated MR2, even after a screw up. But it's not a real sports car, bub. It just isn't.

In your opinion.

That's clearly an M3, which has rear seats I could sit in. Grand Tourer, possibly? Whatever it is it's not a sports car.

The BMW M3, one of the greatest cars around, is not a sports car?

Yeah, okay....

 

[homeforsummer]

Pssh. The only reason that pitiful Renault won is because it wears R-compound tires compared to the Cobalt's relatively pedestrian Continental summer tires. Had the tires been equal I'm confident the Cobalt would outhandle it easily. While listening to its six-disc changer. The SS beats Evo 10s, for cryin' out loud.

Outright grip =/= "handling" I'd certainly not call the Renault "pitiful". I'd not call any of the hyper FWDs (Cobalt/Megane/Focus/SRT4/Scirocco R/etc). Any FWD that can embarass more powerful RWDs and AWDs is the complete opposite of pitiful to me.

 

[Jim Prower]

That one, yes. A VTEC model (or whatever they called it elsewhere) like mine is just about directly comparable to that Elan, and I've no doubt it would be very competitive in performance. Remember what I always say about these crazy Civics and they're spectacular suspenders...

But neither of them are sports cars.

You've yet to address the Sonnet. a car with bespoke chassis, SCCA pedigree, two seats, light weight, designed from the outset not as an economy car, but as a sports car. and Front-wheel drive. and 2-stroke, originally.

 

[niky]

That one, yes. A VTEC model (or whatever they called it elsewhere) like mine is just about directly comparable to that Elan, and I've no doubt it would be very competitive in performance. Remember what I always say about these crazy Civics and they're spectacular suspenders...

But neither of them are sports cars.

And you say this having never driven an Elan?

The manufacturer calls it a sports car.

The press calls it a sports car.

The dictionary calls it a sports car.

Volume 28 of my dusty Encyclopedia Britannica set is missing (strange that...), but I'm pretty sure it would call the Elan a sports car.

Encarta calls it a sports car.
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861712458/sports_car.html

The government calls it a roadster (since the government doesn't classify sportscars).

In your opinion, it isn't a sports car. That's a big difference from it not being a sports car in any way.

 

[Lucas]

I just did mate! What cars do you look up to? where are they from? Exactly!

America, Australia. I look up to cars like the Corvette, Mustang (which with its new engine is set to smash anything Japan and maybe Europe has to offer in that sub-class of sports cars), Commodore, Falcon, Camaro, Elfin T5 and more.

This. 👍 horde_r35, you just got proven wrong.

Not a fan boy man! You have you own point of view and i have mine! Your much an expert has i am! I just dont like when people bash FWD! Z06?? Do you really think that car has true performance? Compare it with the GTR for example! Heavier, with a smoler engine and less 130HP!

7:26.4 Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 (2009)
7:26.70 Nissan GT-R (2009)

These are Nurburgring lap times! So you think its a better car? Its a 21km track! Imagine what happens in a smaller track! How many cars do you want more?

The Corvette beat the Pagani Zonda F Clubsport, weighing 1230 kilograms with a 640hp. The Corvette weights almost 300kg more than the Zonda, and the power differences between the two are almost unexisting. But it must not be a feat, right? It also defeated the Koenigsegg CCX, which weights 1180 kilograms and has around 800hp. Not a feat at all.

What I can deduce based on the Nissan GT-R's time is that it is so full of computers, that it is not even fun. But hey, that's just me, I know nothing of cars. And to answer you, yes, it's a better car judging only by that time.



Anyways, on topic, there's no exact definition of a Sports Car, as there's no exact definition of Muscle Car, so it's pointless to argue about who's right and who's wrong. Personally, anything small, with two doors, lightweight and with an open top makes it a sports car to me.

 

[Horde_R35]

We are talking about the GT-R and Z06, right? Z06 = 505hp. 505 - 130= 375hp. The GT-R has 485hp. And probably the most sophisticated AWD system short of a WRC car. It is bound to be more stable than a 500hp RWD car on a very rough track like Nurb, and it has the power to keep up on the straights (the Z06 probably pulls away some because of weight). And then there's the whole basis of how Nurb is not a definitive track for hot laps due to all of the variables you get on a 20km toll road full of tourists.

And don't think I hate the GT-R either. I'd take one way before I'd take a Z06. Maybe even the ZR1.

Was talking about the ZR1 man.

Really dont know where some of you went to the sporting schools... But if you say a 911 turbo, M3, M5, M6, the Mitsubishi EVO series, all the subarus and a few hundreds more, arent sports cars (ive ride in every of them and all have confy seats), well... i guess you didnt get the diploma! I see this issue will never end. Its pointless.

(Putting aside the part that having a full coilover suspension with camber kits, transmissions, gearboz, clutch, LSD, 6 bars (2 at the front, 1 in de middle and 3 at the back), a big engine and half of the car in carbon)! My EG6 doesnt have any back seats. Can it be a sports car?

EDIT: Its a joke

 

[homeforsummer]

I'd like to throw another into the mix:

An old Morgan. Only a V-twin engine. No weather protection at all. Not a lot of power. Only three wheels. Rear-drive.

Are the Copen, Saab Sonnet, Lotus Elan S2, Barchetta, Del Sol and others really less of a sports car than a 70 year old Morgan just because they're FWD? Or perhaps the Morgan isn't a sports car because it's not very powerful. Or maybe they're all sports cars, that just happen to have different drivetrains. Or different numbers of wheels...

I still think that FWDs can be sports cars. The Elan is very obviously a purposeful machine regardless of which wheels are being driven. It's quick, it handles better and grips harder than a great deal of RWDs, it's small, light, open-topped... I can't see what in all that makes it not a sports car...

 

[Keef]

I still refuse to accept front wheel drive sports cars. I'd like to hear from the other 10 who voted, besides Cody and Stotty's one sentence of support. As an owner and lover of the greatest series of front wheel drive cars ever made, that placed 3rd on Grassroots Motorsports's list of their 25 favorite cars of all time behind the Miata and 3-Series, I still refuse to call my Civic a sports car because it is front wheel drive. I already laid out my principles, and I'm sticking to them.

But I really do feel you all are misguided. I also feel you probably think DSGs are the greatest thing ever.

 

[McLaren]

I still refuse to accept front wheel drive sports cars. I'd like to hear from the other 10 who voted, besides Cody and Stotty's one sentence of support. As an owner and lover of the greatest series of front wheel drive cars ever made, that placed 3rd on Grassroots Motorsports's list of their 25 favorite cars of all time behind the Miata and 3-Series, I still refuse to call my Civic a sports car because it is front wheel drive. I already laid out my principles, and I'm sticking to them.

But I really do feel you all are misguided. I also feel you probably think DSGs are the greatest thing ever.

This coming from the guy who thinks the E92 M3 isn't a real sports car.

 

[Famine]

As an owner and lover of the greatest series of front wheel drive cars ever made, that placed 3rd on Grassroots Motorsports's list of their 25 favorite cars of all time behind the Miata and 3-Series, I still refuse to call my Civic a sports car because it is front wheel drive.

I would refuse to call it a sports car because it's a Civic*. It being FWD has little to do with it.


*This isn't the same thing as saying Civics are crap or slow.

 

[Keef]

I would refuse to call it a sports car because it's a Civic*. It being FWD has little to do with it.


*This isn't the same thing as saying Civics are crap or slow.

Mine did have a couple strikes against it. Not only is it FWD, but it also wasn't designed to perform, which might be what you're getting it. It's an economy car, like an Integra Type R. And it has a huge back seat.

 

[Famine]

it also wasn't designed to perform, which might be what you're getting it.

Sports cars don't have to be performance cars - take the 1.6 Mk1 MX-5, which took 10s to hit 60mph and barely accelerated above 95...

In fact I'd say that being a performance car is a counterindicator of being a sports car.

 

[Keef]

Sports cars don't have to be performance cars - take the 1.6 Mk1 MX-5, which took 10s to hit 60mph and barely accelerated above 95...

In fact I'd say that being a performance car is a counterindicator of being a sports car.

Are you suggesting that a sports car would be designed for fun instead of performance?

 

[Horde_R35]

I still refuse to accept front wheel drive sports cars. I'd like to hear from the other 10 who voted, besides Cody and Stotty's one sentence of support. As an owner and lover of the greatest series of front wheel drive cars ever made, that placed 3rd on Grassroots Motorsports's list of their 25 favorite cars of all time behind the Miata and 3-Series, I still refuse to call my Civic a sports car because it is front wheel drive. I already laid out my principles, and I'm sticking to them.

But I really do feel you all are misguided. I also feel you probably think DSGs are the greatest thing ever.

So sell it! You shouldnt have one anyway! You dont deserve one! Bye a diesel car or an electric one, if its economy your after!

 

[Famine]

He likes his car but doesn't consider it a sports car (rightfully so) and that means he should sell it because he doesn't deserve one?

Yeesh.

Are you suggesting that a sports car would be designed for fun instead of performance?

Pretty much. And as such it would have to be a unique model, rather than an altered variant of an existing model. And the body style is important.

If one were to take considerations of driven wheels out of the equation, I'd say that, of the suggested cars in this thread, the Elan, Gen 7 Celica, DC2 ITR, Hyundai Coupe, FIAT Barchetta, Gen 6 Celica, Alfa GTV, FTO, Copen, FIAT Coupe, Saab Sonnet and Honda CRX fit the bill as sports cars and the Focus RS, FD2 Civic, Prelude, FIAT 500 Abarth, Clio, 206, Cobalt, Focus ST170, the other Prelude, EG Civic, Renault 5, Megane R26 and SportKa don't. And the E90 3-series of any variety doesn't either.

You'll notice that neither category is particularly unified by performance or Famine-preference - I like several in both camps and dislike several in both camps, and there's some very tasty performers and a couple of cackers in each also.


Not that I'm wholly sure why it matters though.

 

[SVX]

Are you suggesting that a sports car would be designed for fun instead of performance?

I think both. I think They are designed to have a bit of power and be fun in the twistys.

 

[Famine]

The Mk1 MX-5 is pretty much the modern blueprint of a sports car, yet the 1.6 barely has enough power to stir a cup of tea. Power is nothing to do with being a sports car.

 

[homeforsummer]

The Mk1 MX-5 is pretty much the modern blueprint of a sports car, yet the 1.6 barely has enough power to stir a cup of tea. Power is nothing to do with being a sports car.

Agreed. If it were, then MG Midgets, MGBs, Triumph Spitfires, Austin Healey Sprites and all other manner of old British sports cars that barely make more than 60bhp wouldn't be sports cars. Nor would that Copen. And nor would the RWD Suzuki Cappuccino, or the mid-engined Honda Beat.

I'd definitely go with the sports car = car designed for fun theory.

 

[JCE]

The Mk1 MX-5 is pretty much the modern blueprint of a sports car, yet the 1.6 barely has enough power to stir a cup of tea. Power is nothing to do with being a sports car.

Agree and disagree at the same time. Agree with the first sentence but the last one I disagree with. Power has very much to do with a sports car, but not in the way this lot is per claiming it to be. NOR does it matter what wheels of the car are driven with that power. MASSIVE BHP is not indicative of a sports car. Enough power for the car to move about laterally as well as vertically is the point. If the MX5 was powered by a 1.0L engine it wouldn't be as good to drive as it is and then it would be declassified as a sports car and it would just be a roadster--a slower one at that. The MX5 has just enough power to scoot it along on a circuit and around and in between the twisties on the backroads. That's rather the point of a sports car isn't it? Good performance at the art of driving around corners as well as in between them? The Dodge Challenger is not a sports car, it is a musclecar. A V6 Accord coupe is more of a sports car than the Challenger. The SVT Focus (ST170) is a sports car (albeit a hot hatch), while the S63 AMG Merc or a GT500 Mustang are not a sports car. Absolute power doesn't mean diddily when you want to drive around a series of twisty roads or racing circuits where grip isn't what it should be as you watch the SS Cobalt, Mazda MX5 or SVT Focus drive on by.

 

[speed junkie]

So what if a new model Miata was released in the upcoming year. Almost the same as the MK1 but maybe a few aesthetic changes to appeal to todays age. Same engine, same double wishbone suspension, but it was front wheel drive. Would you truly feel no different to the idea?

Some of the main reasons why manufacturers began leaning towards the FF layout was for its advantages in cabin space, more compact in design, and more fuel efficient (less power loss to driveshaft and axle). Inevitably manufacturers would improve future designs, improve performance, and make them more fun to drive, appealing to a greater crowd in the process. Eventually designers will go for the next big step in the product line and include better braking system, beefy suspension, and a turbocharger. But these things by no means make up for he essence of a true sports car nor was it the manufacturers intentions to make a front wheel drive sports car regardless of how well it may perform.

EDIT: My idea of a true sports car is that of classic British sports cars. Of course there are plenty of modern ones. Cars like the Lotus Elan, Ginetta G4, Lotus 7 etc, are all cars who were designed with motorsports in mind.

 

[Perfect Balance]

I voted no.


I'll let the discussion continue...

 

[homeforsummer]

So what if a new model Miata was released in the upcoming year. Almost the same as the MK1 but maybe a few aesthetic changes to appeal to todays age. Same engine, same double wishbone suspension, but it was front wheel drive. Would you truly feel no different to the idea?

I think a lot of people would be disappointed. Me included.

But - it'd still be a sports car. They'd still give it great steering and a snappy gearbox, it'd still be light weight, it'd still be great around a track... essentially the only thing it wouldn't be able to do that previous ones could is power oversteer. Especially at the moment, front-drive technology is such that you can still have awesomely effective drivers cars (such as the Focus RS) even with loads of power. With a Miata and 150bhp? Easy. The sole difference is that you'd no longer be able to power out of corners sideways.

Do all sports cars have to be able to powerslide? Is that really what makes a sports car?...

 

[Murcie_LP640]

I voted yes. It's not the drivetrain that matters. It's the suspension/tyre setup, power-to-weight would come into it, and it is usually either a 2-seater or 2+2, to which there are of course exceptions but for a true sports car, that is the norm.

 

[speed junkie]

It has alot more to it, in terms of the dynamics involved, than just being able to slide out of corners, not to mention in motorsports categories where power is in the 300 range or higher and the races last longer than a set of tires. But this is obviously a totally different subject.

 

[Paulie]

I'd definitely go with the sports car = car designed for fun theory.

In my experience, cars with a bit of power also tend to be fun.

 

[Joey D]

You don't need power to have fun though. I've probably had the most fun driving my buddy's 140-ish hp autocross preped Neon with an LSD than any other car I've ever driven...and I've driven Corvettes, Vipers and other high powered cars.

 

[Paulie]

You don't need power to have fun though. I've probably had the most fun driving my buddy's 140-ish hp autocross preped Neon with an LSD than any other car I've ever driven...and I've driven Corvettes, Vipers and other high powered cars.

I didn't say that, but it almost sounded like you were all saying that only low powered cars are fun.

 

[Joey D]

I didn't say that, but it almost sounded like you were all saying that only low powered cars are fun.

It sounded like you were saying high powered cars are more fun then lower powered cars. I think cars can be fun no matter what power rating, I think the Miata is a prime example.

For me, I find lowered powered cars more fun then higher powered cars. This is especially true if the lower powered car has awesome suspension, tires, etc. on it. Seriously I would rather drive my buddy's Neon then a Corvette, or even my car if I put better tires and brakes on it.

And sticking with the FWD thing, for me a low powered FWD car will almost always be more fun than a RWD high powered car. I'm probably the minority on that though.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

So sell it! You shouldnt have one anyway! You dont deserve one! Bye a diesel car or an electric one, if its economy your after!

He kinda sorta doesn't "have" it any more; he wrecked it. I think it's in his possession still but it kinda needs a front clip. And a few other things.

And now he has a proper "sports car" even though said "sports car" is a downgrade in nearly every aspect from his Civic. Mostly due to it being very stock and old. Whereas his Civic was oldish but not very stock in terms of suspension and tires.

 

[niky]

Agree and disagree at the same time. Agree with the first sentence but the last one I disagree with. Power has very much to do with a sports car, but not in the way this lot is per claiming it to be. NOR does it matter what wheels of the car are driven with that power. MASSIVE BHP is not indicative of a sports car. Enough power for the car to move about laterally as well as vertically is the point. If the MX5 was powered by a 1.0L engine it wouldn't be as good to drive as it is and then it would be declassified as a sports car and it would just be a roadster--a slower one at that. The MX5 has just enough power to scoot it along on a circuit and around and in between the twisties on the backroads. That's rather the point of a sports car isn't it? Good performance at the art of driving around corners as well as in between them? The Dodge Challenger is not a sports car, it is a musclecar. A V6 Accord coupe is more of a sports car than the Challenger. The SVT Focus (ST170) is a sports car (albeit a hot hatch), while the S63 AMG Merc or a GT500 Mustang are not a sports car. Absolute power doesn't mean diddily when you want to drive around a series of twisty roads or racing circuits where grip isn't what it should be as you watch the SS Cobalt, Mazda MX5 or SVT Focus drive on by.

It doesn't matter about power.

The strict definition of sportscar doesn't care how big your engine is. Just that it's light, manueverable and designed for high speed driving.

Note: designed for high speed driving... not "capable of blistering quarter miles".

Which is why I don't give two whits about the classical definition, because many modern performance cars don't fit the bill anymore, though they're clearly intended to be sportscars.