FWD Sports Car?

[mustangGT90210]

This thread is a flaming failgasm in almost all areas

Normally I classify a sports car as a powerful, rear drive car built with all out performance on one area at least by the manufacturer during production. But I'm not exclusive. A civic Si is a sports car, a corvette is a sports car, and 911 is a sports car. Only difference is the caliber of them. Obviously the civic Si is a lower caliber sports car than a corvette.

 

[homeforsummer]

Re: The X-90 - you could even get them in RWD... maybe it is more of a sports car than the Veyron?

 

[SVX]

My definition is, normally a two door, fun to drive car. With a bit of power. Some times in open tops.

 

[Horde_R35]

People still argue against the Manufactors and the percentage above... i think thats just ignorance. A sports car can have several scales? Or maybe its just me... dont know... I wounder how many who voted NO are Americans... The very same ones who have they re pride wounded, when after decades discovered that the best cars, fastest, lighters, with a far technologic advantage and a greater performance above all, arent from the USA! Wake up and accept to see the truth in the European and Asian cars are better in everyway. Thats the way it has been and mark my words, will ever be.

 

[Paulie]

People still argue against the Manufactors and the percentage above... i think thats just ignorance. A sports car can have several scales? Or maybe its just me... dont know... I wounder how many who voted NO are Americans... The very same ones who have they re pride wounded, when after decades discovered that the best cars, fastest, lighters, with a far technologic advantage and a greater performance above all! Wake up and see the truth in the European and Asian cars are better in everyway.

Don't get ahead of yourself.

 

[Horde_R35]

Don't get ahead of yourself.

I just did mate! What cars do you and everyone look up to? where are they from? Exactly!

 

[Azuremen]

People still argue against the Manufactors and the percentage above... i think thats just ignorance. A sports car can have several scales? Or maybe its just me... dont know... I wounder how many who voted NO are Americans... The very same ones who have they re pride wounded, when after decades discovered that the best cars, fastest, lighters, with a far technologic advantage and a greater performance above all, arent from the USA! Wake up and accept to see the truth in the European and Asian cars are better in everyway. Thats the way it has been and mark my words, will ever be.

Oh hi there. I'm American. I like Honda. I voted no.

The reason has nothing to do with power. It has to do with design. A Miata was designed around the idea of sporty driving, compromising other factors such as cargo room and what not. It is a sports car.

A Civic was designed to be cheap, economical, practical transport. Thus why it has FWD, which was designed because it more efficient. The CTR uses an upgraded economy car body and pieces. And thus retains its economy car roots, with performance being second in mind.

Going along with this, FWD is a compromise - It gives more passenger space, is more efficient, and simplifies chassis design. It is also safer and easier to drive. All this directly conflicts with the idea of a sports car, which is to make compromises to favor performance, not comfort or economy.

As for manufacturer opinion on classing versus consumer or regulation, I wouldn't pay much attention to it, as things are constantly changing. Mazda would like you to think the CX-7 is a sports car, etc etc.

As for your technology... Just compare FD3S with the 13B to that of one with an LS1. Just go look at some numbers.

 

[JB-BMW1989]

I normally define a sports car as a two seated two door car. The Ford GT, the Corvette, the Viper, the Z4 M Coupe and the FD3S RX-7 Type RZ are labeled as sports cars. A sport compact can be either front wheel drive, rear wheel drive or all wheel drive that has two doors, but with more than two seats; usually on the Civic Type R, the S15 Silvia Spec-R, the AE86 Sprinter Trueno 3door, the 206 RC and the Focus ST.

I don't think the Civic Si is labeled as a sports car because the car has more than two seats. Hey, a sports car can be front wheel drive like the M100 Lotus Elan. It has two seats, right?

 

[Paulie]

I just did mate! What cars do you and everyone look up to? where are they from? Exactly!

America, Australia. I look up to cars like the Corvette, Mustang (which with its new engine is set to smash anything Japan and maybe Europe has to offer in that sub-class of sports cars), Commodore, Falcon, Camaro, Elfin T5 and more.

 

[homeforsummer]

People still argue against the Manufactors and the percentage above... i think thats just ignorance. A sports car can have several scales? Or maybe its just me... dont know... I wounder how many who voted NO are Americans... The very same ones who have they re pride wounded, when after decades discovered that the best cars, fastest, lighters, with a far technologic advantage and a greater performance above all, arent from the USA! Wake up and accept to see the truth in the European and Asian cars are better in everyway. Thats the way it has been and mark my words, will ever be.

Please refrain from bringing nationalism into this. That is not what the discussion is about.

Also, just because the majority have voted "yes", it doesn't mean they're right. Apart from anything, this is a subjective discussion. There isn't necessarily a right and a wrong.

 

[Horde_R35]

Oh hi there. I'm American. I like Honda. I voted no.

The reason has nothing to do with power. It has to do with design. A Miata was designed around the idea of sporty driving, compromising other factors such as cargo room and what not. It is a sports car.

A Civic was designed to be cheap, economical, practical transport. Thus why it has FWD, which was designed because it more efficient. The CTR uses an upgraded economy car body and pieces. And thus retains its economy car roots, with performance being second in mind.

Going along with this, FWD is a compromise - It gives more passenger space, is more efficient, and simplifies chassis design. It is also safer and easier to drive. All this directly conflicts with the idea of a sports car, which is to make compromises to favor performance, not comfort or economy.

As for manufacturer opinion on classing versus consumer or regulation, I wouldn't pay much attention to it, as things are constantly changing. Mazda would like you to think the CX-7 is a sports car, etc etc.

As for your technology... Just compare FD3S with the 13B to that of one with an LS1. Just go look at some numbers.

HI. I see your point and the truth in some of it! But to me a sports car have several scales and ranges! Sports cars in my opinion are the sum of performance (above all), engine and design! The truth is seen at the track when the cars are tested and prove what their worth by experience pilots! Everybody seen a FWD car pulling away from a RWD in some of those tests. So what do you call those cars and what rate do people introduce them?

Paulie i forgot you got to many american cars in your country ! Do you wanna open a thread about how many people would choose American cars and how many would choose European cars/Asian cars?

EDIT: I forgot about the majority of this forum

 

[Paulie]

Paulie i forgot you got to many american cars in your country ! Do you wanna open a thread about how many people would choose American cars and how many would choose European cars/Asian cars?

EDIT: I forgot about the majority of this forum

Sorry? We don't get any American cars in our country presently (except for Chrysler/Dodge but no sports cars and certainly no Vipers), not a single one I can think of. A few American engines yes but that's it. If we want something imported we have to pay about double or triple what the car is really worth for the conversion to RHD among other things.

Oh, and you'll find the majority of this forum is still heavily prejudiced towards Japanese/Euro cars.

 

[Azuremen]

HI. I see your point and the truth in some of it! But to me a sports car have several scales and ranges! Sports cars in my opinion are the sum of performance (above all) and engine! The truth is seen at the track when the cars are tested and prove what their worth by experience pilots! Everybody seen a FWD car pulling away from a RWD in some of those tests. So what do you call those cars and what rate do people introduce them?

Those are fast cars. Not true sports cars. If you had actually read what I said you'd understand my point. But instead you focused on purely performance numbers.

Paulie i forgot you got to many american cars in your country ! Do you wanna open a thread about how many people would choose American cars and how many would choose European cars/Asian cars?

EDIT: I forgot about the majority of this forum

I'm not sure you are realizing how condescendingly you are coming across. You just sound like a young fanboy that bashes on American cars because that is the cool thing to do. Like I said before, take a look of some of the things you are comparing. Japan didn't till just recently have a car that could best a ZO6 around a track.

 

[McLaren]

I normally define a sports car as a two seated two door car. The Ford GT, the Corvette, the Viper, the Z4 M Coupe and the FD3S RX-7 Type RZ are labeled as sports cars. A sport compact can be either front wheel drive, rear wheel drive or all wheel drive that has two doors, but with more than two seats; usually on the Civic Type R, the S15 Silvia Spec-R, the AE86 Sprinter Trueno 3door, the 206 RC and the Focus ST.

I don't think the Civic Si is labeled as a sports car because the car has more than two seats. Hey, a sports car can be front wheel drive like the M100 Lotus Elan. It has two seats, right?

I think there's more to it than that. A 911 technically has "more than" 2 seats, as does most BMW Coupes, Astons, & whatever else, though they can easily be seen as sports cars.

 

[JB-BMW1989]

I think there's more to it than that. A 911 technically has "more than" 2 seats, as does most BMW Coupes, Astons, & whatever else, though they can easily be seen as sports cars.

That's true, but they are occasional seats. These can be used for luggage and small children.

 

[Horde_R35]

Those are fast cars. Not true sports cars. If you had actually read what I said you'd understand my point. But instead you focused on purely performance numbers.



I'm not sure you are realizing how condescendingly you are coming across. You just sound like a young fanboy that bashes on American cars because that is the cool thing to do. Like I said before, take a look of some of the things you are comparing. Japan didn't till just recently have a car that could best a ZO6 around a track.

Not a fan boy man! You have you own point of view and i have mine! Your much an expert has i am! I just dont like when people bash FWD! Z06?? Do you really think that car has true performance? Compare it with the GTR for example! Heavier, with a smoler engine and less 130HP!

20,832 m (68,350 ft) 7:26.4 Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 (2009) Jim Mero 27 June 2008 General Motors conducted test,[10] base specification car with stock tires and non-stock safety equipment, video confirmed. Driver: Jim Mero (GM Engineer), June 2008. Also, Sport Auto[11] published results of Horst von Saurma obtaining 7:38 on Michelin tires.

20,832 m (68,350 ft) 7:26.70 Nissan GT-R (2009) Toshio Suzuki 23 April 2009 Nissan Motors conducted test. Completed on standard Dunlop run flat tires, video confirmed. Best Motoring (08/2009).[12]


These are Nurburgring lap times! So you think its a better car? Its a 21km track! Imagine what happens in a smaller track! How many cars do you want more?

 

[Azuremen]

Again, you need to read my posts properly. I said till just recently. Previous GT-Rs where not faster than ZO6s. And ask most people around here, I'm pretty unbiased nationally and in general (excluding VW )...

Another thing you may want to consider is the FD3S RX-7 weighs the same, is more powerful, more reliable, and gets better gas mileage with an LS1 in it.

 

[Horde_R35]

Again, you need to read my posts properly. I said till just recently. Previous GT-Rs where not faster than ZO6s. And ask most people around here, I'm pretty unbiased nationally and in general (excluding VW )...

Another thing you may want to consider is the FD3S RX-7 weighs the same, is more powerful, more reliable, and gets better gas mileage with an LS1 in it.

Man are you kidding? FD3S has less power and the engine lasts 100.000km ! Someone told me if the car made any "Nocks" the engine would blew right on the spot ! But hey i love the car:tup:! Those Wankel engines are great but...

 

[McLaren]

That's true, but they are occasional seats. These can be used for luggage and small children.

Perhaps the 911s & the Astons, but there actually is quite a bit of room in say, the 335i Coupe. At least, more so than I experienced in a Civic Si Coupe.

 

[Joey D]

Yup, sports cars can be front wheel drive. I must be one of the only ones here that actually prefer FWD to RWD though.

 

[Northstar]

Yup, sports cars can be front wheel drive. I must be one of the only ones here that actually prefer FWD to RWD though.

It depends on the type of car, small cars like yours are better as FF, whereas a large car (take an Aston Martin) are better with RWD.

 

[Eric.]

Not a fan boy man! You have you own point of view and i have mine! Your much an expert has i am! I just dont like when people bash FWD! Z06?? Do you really think that car has true performance? Compare it with the GTR for example! Heavier, with a smoler engine and less 130HP!

20,832 m (68,350 ft) 7:26.4 Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 (2009) Jim Mero 27 June 2008 General Motors conducted test,[10] base specification car with stock tires and non-stock safety equipment, video confirmed. Driver: Jim Mero (GM Engineer), June 2008. Also, Sport Auto[11] published results of Horst von Saurma obtaining 7:38 on Michelin tires.

20,832 m (68,350 ft) 7:26.70 Nissan GT-R (2009) Toshio Suzuki 23 April 2009 Nissan Motors conducted test. Completed on standard Dunlop run flat tires, video confirmed. Best Motoring (08/2009).[12]


These are Nurburgring lap times! So you think its a better car? Its a 21km track! Imagine what happens in a smaller track! How many cars do you want more?

So the GT-R was .3s slower. What was it you were trying to prove again?

 

[niky]

People still argue against the Manufactors and the percentage above... i think thats just ignorance.

Errh. BMW calls the X5 an SAV. I call it a crossover SUV. Which one of us is right? BMW? Me? Or both of us?

Tomayto - Tomahto... there's no right and wrong when it comes to car classification... and it'll change based on whatever you're basing your classification on, be it qualitative measures or quantitative measures.

A sports car can have several scales? Or maybe its just me... dont know... I wounder how many who voted NO are Americans... The very same ones who have they re pride wounded, when after decades discovered that the best cars, fastest, lighters, with a far technologic advantage and a greater performance above all, arent from the USA! Wake up and accept to see the truth in the European and Asian cars are better in everyway. Thats the way it has been and mark my words, will ever be.

Do you know where the term "Sport Compact" originated? Do you know who bought Civics in droves and modified them, tracked them and drag-raced them? Do you know in which country you can find the fastest front-wheel drive dragster? Or the five fastest? It's not Japan!

Ad dear Lord! Stop shouting! Your words are painful to read!

Going along with this, FWD is a compromise - It gives more passenger space, is more efficient, and simplifies chassis design. It is also safer and easier to drive. All this directly conflicts with the idea of a sports car, which is to make compromises to favor performance, not comfort or economy.

A front-wheel drive car can be built to turn quickly, without the edge of understeer built into most modern cars, because getting on the power will straighten the car out. That means it can be made to handle better than a similar rear-wheel drive car. A front-wheel drive car has a more compact drivetrain, which makes it lighter than a similar rear-wheel drive car. Other compromises? Irrelevant. Even the Miata has airconditioning, a retractable hardtop and a radio... none of which actually help in terms of performance driving.

Front-engine rear-drive is a compromise. It gives more cargo space and passenger room than the optimum mid-engined design. It is safer and easier to drive (more understeer). And it allows manufacturers to build their sports cars on platforms shared with other vehicles (see 350Z).

All of this conflicts with the idea of a sports car, which is to make compromises to favor performance, not comfort or economy of manufacture.

Economy? Whoever said a Mitsubishi Evo or a Focus RS was economical? More to the point, a Focus RS or, say, a Renault R26.R makes less compromises than any Porsche 911 short of the GT3RS in terms of comfort versus performance.

Again, all subjective lines and definitions. Of course, like I said, the definition itself is subjective, but there are front-wheel drive cars above and below wherever you choose to set your arbitrary line.

I think there's more to it than that. A 911 technically has "more than" 2 seats, as does most BMW Coupes, Astons, & whatever else, though they can easily be seen as sports cars.

They're technically Sports Grand Tourers... but then, again... I don't personally care. I still think they're Sportscars.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

People still argue against the Manufactors and the percentage above... i think thats just ignorance. A sports car can have several scales? Or maybe its just me... dont know... I wounder how many who voted NO are Americans... The very same ones who have they re pride wounded, when after decades discovered that the best cars, fastest, lighters, with a far technologic advantage and a greater performance above all, arent from the USA! Wake up and accept to see the truth in the European and Asian cars are better in everyway. Thats the way it has been and mark my words, will ever be.

Funny that the fastest accelerating cars in the world come from the US. And use an engine design dating back to the beginning of time.

 

[Northstar]

Not to mention the worlds fastest production car.
SSC Ultimate Aero

 

[Horde_R35]

So the GT-R was .3s slower. What was it you were trying to prove again?

Sometimes i think you guys are kidding me... Read my post again! So many experts here!

The best cars are RWD and i didnt said otherwise! Are the best in general! But FWD are and will be sports cars, if you like it or not, or if you say they arent wont change anything! Its a world of magazines, TV shows, pilots and Manufacters and you are the experts ones ! Whatever you all say!

I know all about the fastest FF cars of the USA! I know about the existence of YouTube! And i have spoken many times with the owners of the records on the phone (where do you think my engine came from)! So no news to me! But when i talk about performance car, im talking about the track perfomance: chassis/suspension/tires/engine... not about who goes faster in the 1/4 mile! And i am the one who doesnt know what the word "sport" means !

 

[Paulie]

I'm sorry, did I actually read somewhere in this thread someone using Ring lap times to compare cars? There's a million different reasons that just doesn't work . GT-R better than a ZR1? I don't think so (full stop)

BTW- If you think a Corvette or Viper ACR can't handle, boy, that WOULD be a fanboyish view.

 

[Horde_R35]

I'm sorry, did I actually read somewhere in this thread someone using Ring lap times to compare cars? There's a million different reasons that just doesn't work . GT-R better than a ZR1? I don't think so (full stop)

BTW- If you think a Corvette or Viper ACR can't handle, boy, that WOULD be a fanboyish view.

Sure... a tuned Viper... ok! Ill call Mines Motorsport to take one of their cars to the Nurburgring too:tup:!

 

[Paulie]

Except the Viper ACR is a factory model, not a tuned one. But yes, it uses aero to accomplish its feats. Still, the ZR1. And seriously, don't even think of using the Ring to say the GT-R is almost as fast as a ZR1, there are so many variables especially on such a long track it's just not funny.

Did someone also mention Mosler?

 

[Horde_R35]

Except the Viper ACR is a factory model, not a tuned one. But yes, it uses aero to accomplish its feats. Still, the ZR1. And seriously, don't even think of using the Ring to say the GT-R is almost as fast as a ZR1, there are so many variables especially on such a long track it's just not funny.

So they (Manufacters) dont go there to test the cars between them selfs? Hmmm i wounder about that:idea:!

EDIT: If a car with less 130HP and more wheight does the same laps times has the Vette, in a 21km track, that doesnt mean anything to any of you? Thats just hilarious !