Game of Thrones - Caution: contains spoilers & dragonsTV

[Mr P]

Not the best season ever but finally it is over.. I still rate it as the best thing ever shown on a tv screen for me 👍

Spoiler

The best part of last night was drogon creeping up behind Jon with those eyes like wtf have you just done!! expected toasted Jon Snow but...

Thanks for the great years of viewing!!

 

[Dotini]

Not really though, Sansa and Arya are still alive as is Jon...

Jon (Aegon) has a life sentence to the Knight's Watch. He can never legally marry or have children. Sansa and Arya may marry and have children, but they will not have the Stark surname. That notwithstanding, I thought the ending was rushed over the last two seasons, but overall the production was brilliant and the ending both just and finally understandable.

 

[baldgye]

Jon (Aegon) has a life sentence to the Knight's Watch. He can never legally marry or have children.

An Oath he's already broken one and not only that, the North is ruled by his sister... who can pardon him as the Unsullied have left and Bran has no say over it.

ansa and Arya may marry and have children, but they will not have the Stark surname.

Maybe, but maybe not. As Queen of the north she could change that rule... I also can't see Arya ever marrying... although I still have deep problems with her 'sex' scene. D&D in general IMO have no idea how to deal with female characters.

 

[88GTA]

Spoiler

Jon already left the Night's Watch to live with the Wildlings in the end. He can continue both the Stark and Targaryen blood lines.

 

[Jezza819]

Why would the unsullied and dothraki even let him live as a prisoner after murdering their queen? Jon being a Targaryen and rightful heir to the throne never came up in the aftermath and council meeting? Why would the North secede with a Stark on the throne? Why did no one care or do it themselves too?

There's tons of questions about the ending, but what's the point now. They just wanted to end it and move on too.

Yeah that was my main question from the episode. If Drogon didn't immediately toast him I figured the Dothraki and Unsullied would kill him instantly when they found out. But also where was her security detail? I guess they figured Jon wasn't a threat?

 

[baldgye]

Also.... why did Sam name the historical record of the days since Great Bobby B 'A Song of Ice and Fire'?! I legit giggled on the train this morning... so dumb

 

[Danoff]

Ok time to break this down while it's still fresh. WARNING, TONS OF SPOILERS HERE

Let's see which characters have solid plot arcs in the end:
- Bran
- Sansa
- Jon
- Dany
- Sandor
- Tyrion
- Sam
- Varys
- Brienne
- Theon
- Gregor
- Q guy
- Drogon

Characters I felt didn't quite get a solid arc:
- Arya
- Yara
- Jamie
- Cersie
- Grey Worm

I think on the whole that's decent. I'd really like to have seen more for Arya and Jamie, I felt like both of those characters deserved more, even though I was wondering why Jamie was still alive after Winterfell. Now we know, he was alive for Peter Dinklage to riff off of. Jamie's character really needed some kind of redemption. Just going back to Cersie to die alongside her felt like when a football player signs a 1-day deal to retire with the team they played with the most. It's really lackluster. I'd like for Jamie to have killed Cersie, and I get why the writers might have felt it was too similar to the Jon/Dany ending, but honestly I think that would have been even better. Jamie stabs Cersie in an embrace, Jon stabs Dany... that would have been nice. It would have boosted Jamie's character a lot, and it would have drawn a nice parallel between Dany and Cersie.

Arya... alright so I've already explained why we needed a masked killing from her. She's a faceless assassin! The last time we see that it's friggin... Walter Fray? What the actual? She has the ability to change her face, one of the coolest things in the entire show, especially a show with so many dead people! And nobody even knows! It makes her the perfect assassin. Such a waste, so much time spent developing that for... what? The Night King? They didn't pay that off right.

Jon's conflict about Dany was great. So was Tyrion's. The scene with Drogon was one of the epic scenes in the whole show too. I really appreciated Jon's last dialogue with her. They showed you how she still meant to do right, but how utterly corrupted she had truly become. It as nice, I'd have liked to see more of a gradual slide into that character, but it was nice anyway. Right before she dies too, which heightens the tragedy.

Sansa had a great final scene there telling that guy to sit down and then refusing to bend the knee to Bran. Which was a very solid payoff for her character arc.

Also, you've got to love the Stark montage.

Also you've got to love how the whole thing feels a bit orchestrated by the Gods. Even Jon was a pawn, coming back to life to lead against the Night King and deliver Kings Landing to Bran.

Also this, which everyone has been talking about, but which was truly one of the iconic moments of the show:

WARNING CROSS-FRANCHISE SPOILERS HERE (implicated shows are: Battlestar, Breaking Bad)

Ok, so that's that. Let's talk about where this show sits in the history of entertainment. Obviously there's a parallel with Breaking Bad here, which was I think the best show in the history of television prior to this one. I think Walter White was much more effectively developed by the writers than Dany. I debated this some with my wife already, who thinks Breaking Bad remains the greatest show in the history of television. I think she's refusing to allow enough of the source material in to Game of Thrones. She's trying to separate the books from the show, and I don't think that's fair.

I quit Breaking Bad before realizing what the show was truly about. Eventually I figured it out and went back to it and finished it, and I'm very glad I did. I nearly quit game of thrones when Ramsey married Sansa, for almost exactly the same reason. But I stuck with it and I'm very glad I did. Funny that these two shows would land at the top of my entertainment radar then. GoT blew it a little in season 8. There were some truly dumb moments, that didn't fit the character of the show. I think that the final episode here was the best of the season, and that's good because it really needed to be to save the show from a total Battlestar Galactica-style collapse.

But Breaking Bad languished a little in the middle, I got sick of Skyler's troubles and Walter's meandering with Pollo Loco guy. So neither show was flawless from one end to the other. GoT tried to juggle more characters and failed to deliver quite as poignant a punch with Dany. I don't know if that's a win or a loss for GoT. There was more to love (more characters with interesting plot arcs) and less to love (no one character was as great a story as Walter White). Let's call it a loss. GoT wins in dialog, special effects, imagery (BB was quite good with imagery too), and pure creativity. A lot of that is down to GRRM, but some of it was brought by the HBO crew and cast.

In the end, I think GoT takes the crown, and I bend the knee to our new King of Television.

Edit:

Or should I say queen.

You know, I did predict that Jon couldn't take the throne because of Varys's speech about having a male unit between your legs being important. Note that Sansa goes out of her way to explain that Bran's doesn't work right there at the end. This was important for the show, which I think couldn't stand putting a man on the throne after all those great women. So instead they crowned a woman queen of the north, and a broken three-eyed raven the king in king's landing.

 

[Dotini]

Also.... why did Sam name the historical record of the days since Great Bobby B 'A Song of Ice and Fire'?! I legit giggled on the train this morning... so dumb

The song of ice and fire is a subject of a prophecy, and is eponymous for A Song of Ice and Fire, the series of epic fantasy novels. The song of ice and fire is said to belong to the prince that was promised, but its content remains unknown.

In her visions at the House of the Undying, Daenerys Targaryen sees a man (Rhaegar Targaryen), and overhears him talking to a woman (Elia Martell) who is nursing a baby. "Aegon. What better name for a king... He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire"; When Rhaegar's eyes meet Daenerys's, he says (either to her or Elia), "There must be one more. The dragon has three heads," and he picks up a silver harp and begins to play.[1]

However, neither Daenerys nor Ser Jorah Mormont know what "the song of ice and fire" means.[2] It is implied that there is a connection between the song, the promise, and Daenerys herself. This is established more clearly when Maester Aemon identifies Daenerys as the "prince" that was promised.[3]

The phrase "ice and fire" is also mentioned in the Reeds' oath of loyalty to Bran Stark.[4][5] The phrase "ice and fire" appears as an example of opposites.[6][7] The phrase is also used to mean direction,[8] and is used to refer to the world by Maester Yandel in his eponymous book The World of Ice and Fire.[9]

The phrase may also refer to a union of House Targaryen and House Stark. The Pact of Ice and Fire was an agreement made between Prince Jacaerys Velaryon and Lord Cregan Stark during the Dance of the Dragons civil war, that a royal princess should marry into House Stark in exchange for their support of the blacks, but it was never fulfilled.[10]
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_song_of_ice_and_fire

 

[Mr P]

But also where was her security detail? I guess they figured Jon wasn't a threat?

Spoiler

Her security was basically Drogon resting outside the hall hiding under a pile of snow who heard him quietly approach and instantly gave Jon the smell test and saw no threat so let him pass, I'm pretty sure he's the most menacing bouncer I ever saw on a door... more than adequate :tup:

 

[baldgye]

more than adequate

...ermmm...

 

[Mr P]

yep haha sorry

 

[Dotini]

You know, I did predict that Jon couldn't take the throne because of Varys's speech about having a male unit between your legs being important. Note that Sansa goes out of her way to explain that Bran's doesn't work right there at the end. This was important for the show, which I think couldn't stand putting a man on the throne after all those great women. So instead they crowned a woman queen of the north, and a broken three-eyed raven the king in king's landing.

It is significant that, going forward, the monarch of the 6 Kingdoms shall not be determined by heredity but by a choice of the Great Council. Which will not include the Queen or King in the North.

 

[Jezza819]

Spoiler

Her security was basically Drogon resting outside the hall hiding under a pile of snow who heard him quietly approach and instantly gave Jon the smell test and saw no threat so let him pass, I'm pretty sure he's the most menacing bouncer I ever saw on a door... more than adequate :tup:

You're right. I had forgotten about that.

 

[baldgye]

It is significant that, going forward, the monarch of the 6 Kingdoms shall not be determined by heredity but by a choice of the Great Council. Which will not include the Queen or King in the North.

Which, as history has shown us, never amounted to wars.

 

[PocketZeven]

The corruption of Dany was to sudden for me. It should have been more gradual. I was not convinced to the ultimate end, that she was unredeemable.
I would have much preferred these alternatives:

- She realises what she has become and banish herself back to the east. Leaving Jon as king of the 7 kingdoms.
- After her death, Drogon breathes fire on Snow, and him being targaryan, surviving unscaved. This convinces the dothraki and unsullied that he is the true heir. Snow, however is with such remorse and pain of his deeds, renounces the crown, gives the dothraki and unsullied their freedom to return to their home and banishes himself to north of the wall together with Drogon.
- Dani kills or has Jon killed in a fit of rage and out of remorse and realising, that she has become what she always hated, relinqueshes the crown and banishes herself together with Drogon to another place far away.
- Drogon kills Jon after stabbing Dany and takes both bodies and flies to the unknown.

 

[Joey D]

I really didn't mind how it ended. It wasn't terrible like some people are saying, but it wasn't epic by any means. The writing was really sloppy too and it seems like D & D just phoned it in. At least the acting made up for it and there were enough riveting dialog to make it alright.

• Bran getting the crown made sense and I pretty much had that pegged as soon as he became bird boy and could do all the magical stuff. Then when he revealed that he's essentially the embodiment of the past, it pretty much sealed the deal that he would be king.
• Sansa getting the north was meant to be
• Ayra turning into Dora the Explore made sense
• Jon going to live with the Wildlings was pretty much foreshadowed for some time. Also, the Nights Watch isn't even needed for another thousand years or something.
• Dany getting offed was excellent. I've hated her character for a couple of seasons. How she died though was a bit lame.
• Jon getting to pet his dire wolf made up for the travesty when he left him.

I do hope the spinoffs continue with some more of the story. I'd really like to see Arya's adventures in the unknown world, how the Night King became the Night King, and the backstory on the Targaryen's.

Spoiler

Her security was basically Drogon resting outside the hall hiding under a pile of snow who heard him quietly approach and instantly gave Jon the smell test and saw no threat so let him pass, I'm pretty sure he's the most menacing bouncer I ever saw on a door... more than adequate :tup:

It was ash, not snow. I thought it was snow at first too because ash isn't nearly that white, but considering where King's Landing on the continent I don't think it snows there.

The corruption of Dany was to sudden for me. It should have been more gradual. I was not convinced to the ultimate end, that she was unredeemable.

Really? She's been nuts for pretty much the entire show. Yes, she did good but she thought nothing of just killing left and right whenever it suited her.

 

[baldgye]

It was ash, not snow. I thought it was snow at first too because ash isn't nearly that white, but considering where King's Landing on the continent I don't think it snows there.

I think this is an example of how rushed and poorly written and planned the show is.

In Danny's vision of Kingslanding it's snowing (you can hear the crunch of the snow underfoot and the dew in her hair). But obviously the Nightking never even made it close to Kingslanding... and in the end where Danny quickly goes mental and sacks the city they change it to ash... which would be fine... except that they kind of can't decide on if it should be ash or not and so it just kinda becomes snow... I mean ash is generally pretty dark and it was clearly white.

 

[Danoff]

I don't think it snows there.

They had a shot of snow at King's Landing in one of the later episodes to show that winter had come.

 

[baldgye]

They had a shot of snow at King's Landing in one of the later episodes to show that winter had come.

Wait, isn't the whole point of 'The Long Night' to be the end of winter???

 

[Danoff]

Wait, isn't the whole point of 'The Long Night' to be the end of winter???

That I'm not sure about. Snow started falling in King's Landing right when Jamie left. It's not clear to me whether winter goes away with the Night King's death.

 

[Dotini]

Wait, isn't the whole point of 'The Long Night' to be the end of winter???

The Long Night was either the 3rd episode in this (8th) season or....

"Thousands of years ago, there came a night that lasted a generation. Kings froze to death in their castles, same as the shepherds in their huts; and women smothered their babies rather than see them starve, and wept, and felt the tears freeze on their cheeks... In that darkness the White Walkers came for the first time. They swept through cities and kingdoms, riding their dead horses, hunting with their packs of pale spiders big as hounds."
―Old Nan to Bran Stark[src]

Eight thousand years before the Targaryen Conquest, a winter known as the Long Night descended upon the world, which lasted an entire generation. Thousands starved as the crops and fields lay buried under dozens of feet of snow. In the darkness and cold of the Long Night, the White Walkers descended upon Westeros from the farthest north, the polar regions of the Lands of Always Winter. The conflict that arose from the Long Night is known as the War for the Dawn as the White Walkers sought to bring an end to all life and to cover the world in an endless winter.

https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Long_Night

 

[baldgye]

The Long Night was either the 3rd episode in this (8th) season or....
"Thousands of years ago, there came a night that lasted a generation. Kings froze to death in their castles, same as the shepherds in their huts; and women smothered their babies rather than see them starve, and wept, and felt the tears freeze on their cheeks... In that darkness the White Walkers came for the first time. They swept through cities and kingdoms, riding their dead horses, hunting with their packs of pale spiders big as hounds."
―Old Nan to Bran Stark[src]

https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Long_Night

Ok... so isn’t the whole point of the war with the whites to prevent this from happening and ever happening again?

Isn’t this the reason the Stark motto is “winter is coming” ??

Wasn’t the reason it snowed at KL a while ago basically the Nightking sending out a tweet announcing himself?

 

[PocketZeven]

Really? She's been nuts for pretty much the entire show. Yes, she did good but she thought nothing of just killing left and right whenever it suited her.

There were signs, but she was mostly cruel to the leaders. She always tried to protect the innocent. She really went nuts when she burned the city. Up to that point she was still redeemable. She even could make a case for killing Varys for his betrayal. And even after the massacre I still thought redemption is still possible, because she arguably saved more people then she killed.

 

[Dotini]

Ok... so isn’t the whole point of the war with the whites to prevent this from happening and ever happening again?

Isn’t this the reason the Stark motto is “winter is coming” ??

Wasn’t the reason it snowed at KL a while ago basically the Nightking sending out a tweet announcing himself?

The point of this new war with the white walkers was self-defense. Hopefully it will be long time if ever that they arise again. What is beyond the wall is largely a mystery, having never been fully explored by men.

The Stark motto is mainly due to Winterfell being in the North, where they have exceptionally long and cold winters, which in Westeros come irregularly and last irregular lengths of time. Westeros is on the planet Planetos - not Earth - and the seasons are very unusual.

The reason it snowed in King's Landing is that winter had come, having been previously announced by the Maesters of the Citadel when they sent out white ravens.

 

[Danoff]

Wasn’t the reason it snowed at KL a while ago basically the Nightking sending out a tweet announcing himself?

It's not clear whether he was coming with winter or winter was coming with him (or a little of both).

@Dotini correctly reminds us that winter had been identified as in fact "coming" in the absence of the night king. Seems like he was coming with winter rather than the other way around.

There were signs, but she was mostly cruel to the leaders. She always tried to protect the innocent. She really went nuts when she burned the city. Up to that point she was still redeemable. She even could make a case for killing Varys for his betrayal. And even after the massacre I still thought redemption is still possible, because she arguably saved more people then she killed.

This was my problem with their treatment of her. I'd have liked to see more questionable stuff. The only thing that I saw that really warned about this was her insistence that people "bend the knee", including the Tarleys if you'll recall. I'd have liked to see more sheer oppression, burning people that refuse to bow. But I can accept that they just went short with it.

 

[baldgye]

It's not clear whether he was coming with winter or winter was coming with him (or a little of both).

Yeah /shrug

A lot of the anti-hate towards this season has been about people saying the ending made sense and characters ended in the ‘right’ places. But that was never the issue, the issue was that so many narrative plots where just dropped or ****ed with to the point of making zero sense... like really why does it matter Jon was a Targerion? If he’d died during the Long Night it would have amounted to the same outcome... the show spent YEARS teasing that out... all for kinda nothing really...

 

[88GTA]

To me, it looked like ash when Dany first spoke to her armies after the victory and then definitely snow when Drogon was sleeping outside the throne room.

 

[Danoff]

like really why does it matter Jon was a Targerion? If he’d died during the Long Night it would have amounted to the same outcome... the show spent YEARS teasing that out... all for kinda nothing really...

I think without Jon being a Targerion he doesn't distance himself from Dany and doesn't turn on her, and so she wins. Also Jon doesn't get past Drogon if he's not a Targerion. Also Jon doesn't ride the dragon against the Night King if he's not a Targerion.

Pretty much however you look at it, Bran doesn't take the throne if Jon's not a Targerion, and the Gods obviously wanted Bran on the throne (as is evidenced in Bran's arc).

 

[Dotini]

Yeah /shrug

A lot of the anti-hate towards this season has been about people saying the ending made sense and characters ended in the ‘right’ places. But that was never the issue, the issue was that so many narrative plots where just dropped or ****ed with to the point of making zero sense... like really why does it matter Jon was a Targerion? If he’d died during the Long Night it would have amounted to the same outcome... the show spent YEARS teasing that out... all for kinda nothing really...

The meaning, nuance and character development worked out in a series of 1000 page novels dwarfs what is possible in a series of 60 page screen plays. Read the books!

 

[baldgye]

The meaning, nuance and character development worked out in a series of 1000 page novels dwarfs what is possible in a series of 60 page screen plays. Read the books!

The mediums are different.
The problem is the TV Show had no direction until season 5ish, when they realised they wanted to end it all in a few seasons and so just killed off 3/4 of the cast.

From my understanding the books are far too slow for me to get invested in.