Gen 5 Dodge Viper

[ExigeEvan]

But again, displacement is only one factor. The Viper already gets the same economy as Ferrari and what not, and its not any slower.

Very true. It's not that the displacement or economy of past Vipers bothers me, it's why they've chosen to increase it to further levels of absurdity. Ferrari have made moves to increase fuel economy though, in ways that haven't affected power output.

Yet the Viper's engine has never gained weight, even when increasing displacement. And parts are built with tolerances. The components of the Viper's engine are built to handle more than 600 hp, as any engine should be able to handle more power than it puts out. It's possible that the displacement increase on the new engine requires no additional equipment mass, or perhaps even less mass.

Entirely possible. We have been purely speculating, so while your opinion is the increased displacement will have no detrimental affects, my opinion differs.

Displacement doesn't necessarily add weight. So even if Dodge can't start from scratch with the engine, there is nothing to worry about. Unless the engine was bored to max (obviously not) there probably won't be any significant weight gain. What about ancillaries then, as you brought up? Wouldn't they need to be improved for any power gain over a certain value? If so, it's not a displacement issue.

Depends how you go about your power. If you're increasing displacement just so you can burn more fuel then you will increase cooling and auxiliaries. If you're pumping the fuel in more effectively, you may have less auxiliary weight and no increase in combustion temperature. But I can't give you hard facts on that.

Then both methods works. Now it becomes a question of what meets the goals better.

If you're trying to go supersonic, you can go the F-104 way, or the F-106 way. Both work, but depending on what your ultimate goal is, one could end up being much more attractive.

Where is the Viper not moving forward?

And this is the point. I don't believe the viper is being steered well, be it by engineers, marketing or accountants. How much longer can they continue increasing the displacement? Why not now, during a considerable redevelopment, change the direction of previous development so it's not limited by how big they dare go.

Making an assumption about how good the engine is just because of one method they used to increase performance (which every manufacturer uses because it's a no brainer) isn't too sound.

The Viper has just as much power, acceleration, and whatever as everyone else. If that's what Dodge set out to achieve, they are not behind in the slightest. If the Viper was not moving forward, it would not be competitive like it is now.

I'd argue that if there is an area where the Viper actually needs to catch up, it's certainly not the engine. It's probably the aerodynamics.

Again, I don't argue with the performance and capability of previous Vipers. It's the idea that further development is going in the wrong direction. While technology with improve over time I can't imagine that cars will swell to accommodate greater displacement engines.

You haven't.

You've assumed that smaller engines with more output/displacement and newer technologies are just better. The only tangible reasoning you've cited is weight and has been disproven already with facts that you have doubted simply because they can be manipulated (or maybe because they disagree with you).

No I haven't. I've never stated I disliked the Viper, I've never said it should have a smaller engine, what I'm against is the idea that the only way to improve is to increase the size of an already absurdly large engine to even greater displacement. How much longer is that sort of development sustainable? They have had a chance for a clean sheet design with this car, so why not look to future proof the development process.

Is increasing engine displacement morally wrong? In my experience it seems this way. People look down upon displacement increases as lazy engineering for those who cannot achieve their goals otherwise. This is strange, especially when "more efficient" engines are often turbocharged, as if the downsides of a turbo (lag, intercooler, maintenance) are somehow negligible compared to increasing displacement. That's another discussion, though.

It's not lazy engineering. I've already countered someone who posed that point that it's most likely marketing/budget reasons. Read the thread please.

I've argued this point about the Corvette (and GM) for at least 10 years--and getting flamed every single time on every single forum for doing it. Funny that the Viper doesn't illicit the same response? This time I'm not FOR reducing displacement or improving the technology. I'm for the Viper being, a Viper. Brash, in your face and who gives a **** how it got there but you better buy it a beer. The Corvette is no longer the blue collar hero, that title is now stamped on the Viper as of 2005.

Which is what I understand of the Viper. I'm not doubting the market and appeal of the Viper, and I haven't suggested reducing the displacement, but if they wanted more power from it they don't need to turn it into a super computer with an IC engine strapped on, they just need try the rich variety of other options.

 

[Zenith]

No I haven't. I've never stated I disliked the Viper, I've never said it should have a smaller engine, what I'm against is the idea that the only way to improve is to increase the size of an already absurdly large engine to even greater displacement. How much longer is that sort of development sustainable? They have had a chance for a clean sheet design with this car, so why not look to future proof the development process.

It's not the only way and it probably isn't the only way that Dodge is improving the design. You said that if the engineers increase engine displacement then it is a "poor job" by them. Even with all other details still up in the air, a displacement increase renders an update a "poor job". This is what I'm getting at.

It's not lazy engineering. I've already countered someone who posed that point that it's most likely marketing/budget reasons. Read the thread please.

You said that there are "better" ways of doing it. The reasons that you stated that were better (except fuel economy) have been disproven with info from a reputable source.

 

[Exorcet]

Very true. It's not that the displacement or economy of past Vipers bothers me, it's why they've chosen to increase it to further levels of absurdity. Ferrari have made moves to increase fuel economy though, in ways that haven't affected power output.

F355
F360
F430
458

There is a clear pattern

Diablo (5.7)
Murcielago (6.2)
LP 640 (6.5)
Aventador (6.5)

This is the same for just about everyone.

I'm not really saying anything about the Viper because there is no information on it. I'm saying that drawing conclusions from a rumored displacement up is silly. The Viper might very well get larger volume engine, but that doesn't tell you anything about the car, or its "direction".

Depends how you go about your power. If you're increasing displacement just so you can burn more fuel then you will increase cooling and auxiliaries. If you're pumping the fuel in more effectively, you may have less auxiliary weight and no increase in combustion temperature. But I can't give you hard facts on that.

Burning more fuel does the same thing as burning less fuel more efficiently, it extracts more energy. No matter what you do, you're going to get more heat.

 

[zedextreme8177]

Thread title reminded me think of this for some odd reason:

Anyways, I'm really interested about how the new Viper will be styled. And a larger engine shouldn't be an issue (unless they reach the size of large trucks )

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

The large displacement V10 is what makes the Viper a Viper. I hope its still scary to drive, unlike that GT-R BS.

 

[Tornado]

I already have said why. If you haven't noticed the numerous reasons I've given why don't you step out of the thread rather than acting like you've been personally attacked.

No. You've said that it's bad. And you've repeated multiple times that it is bad. And you have gone on and on about how the Dodge engineers are terrible because it's bad.





But you haven't, not once, said why. Oh, you've made some allusions to your reasoning, and you have presented some (completely assumption-based and mostly likely false anyway) facts that sorta support what you are saying.

But no, saying that other manufacturers are doing things differently is not a reason why; because A: Several other manufacturers are not doing things differently, and B: That isn't proof of anything even if they were.
Nor is going on a meaningless rant about engine displacement, because that also isn't an inherent problem.

 

[Dennisch]

Isn't the point of having a Viper, a huge engine, a clunky proper manual gearbox, and some seats? And then smoke almost everything you run across in a straight line?

I've driven a '97 GTS a while back, and it just such an awesome car, the steering, the brakes, the gearbox, it all feels so heavy, like a truck, but the power. The POWER. 👍

 

[SuperShouden]

It will be interesting to see what improvements Ferrari brings to the V10. Although they're not "directly" involved with the project, Ferrari is providing their knowledge and expertise. I'd say we might be looking at a car that can keep up with the 458 and Corvette. I hope to see it back in LeMans.

 

[Exorcet]

Isn't the point of having a Viper, a huge engine, a clunky proper manual gearbox, and some seats? And then smoke almost everything you run across in a straight line? around any track

Yes.

 

[ExigeEvan]

It's not the only way and it probably isn't the only way that Dodge is improving the design. You said that if the engineers increase engine displacement then it is a "poor job" by them. Even with all other details still up in the air, a displacement increase renders an update a "poor job". This is what I'm getting at.

Note my wording. I never accused the engineers of poor engineering, or poor quality. I said the job was poor. Again, I've said several times, engineers work within the briefs designed by marketing and accountants. If the marketing and accountants said it had to be done by increasing displacement then I'd say that's a pretty poor brief, for a poor job.

F355
F360
F430
458

There is a clear pattern

Diablo (5.7)
Murcielago (6.2)
LP 640 (6.5)
Aventador (6.5)

This is the same for just about everyone.

I'm not really saying anything about the Viper because there is no information on it. I'm saying that drawing conclusions from a rumored displacement up is silly. The Viper might very well get larger volume engine, but that doesn't tell you anything about the car, or its "direction".

I'm not contesting other companies are choosing to increase displacements, but few are doing to an engine that is already seen as one of, if not the, largest displacements in a mass produced car.

Burning more fuel does the same thing as burning less fuel more efficiently, it extracts more energy. No matter what you do, you're going to get more heat.

Not at all. By burning fuel more efficiently you are reducing waste energy in the forms of noise and heat and doing so at the most appropriate times in the power stroke.

The large displacement V10 is what makes the Viper a Viper. I hope its still scary to drive, unlike that GT-R BS.

And I don't dispute that. But why does it need to be bigger still? No one is threatening it's supremacy.

No. You've said that it's bad. And you've repeated multiple times that it is bad. And you have gone on and on about how the Dodge engineers are terrible because it's bad.

Read the thread again, I haven't called the engineers bad. But hey, you've added so much to the debate already by half-arsed reading why not carry on?

But you haven't, not once, said why. Oh, you've made some allusions to your reasoning, and you have presented some (completely assumption-based and mostly likely false anyway) facts that sorta support what you are saying.

But no, saying that other manufacturers are doing things differently is not a reason why; because A: Several other manufacturers are not doing things differently, and B: That isn't proof of anything even if they were.
Nor is going on a meaningless rant about engine displacement, because that also isn't an inherent problem.

Let me lay out my whole discussion for you, in brief, your comprehension appears to lacking.

- I have no problem with past Vipers.
- I haven't stated the engineers are sub standard.
- "Poor job" refers to the job the engineers are required to do by the people that pay them.
- The Viper is in a process of refreshment, a new beginning to some extent.
- If the trend continues to keep increasing displacement to gain more power then where does the Viper draw the line? 10L, 12L, 15L?
- Why not use this refresh as a chance to introduce alternative methods of increasing output without bumping up the displacement any further.
- "Better methods" such as direct injection, changing engine architecture (Would OHC really be blasphemy?), FI. All will flexibly allow future power increases without moving ever-closer to the point of no-bigger.


I'm gonna drop from this thread now, as there's a fair clear line separating opinions, and appears some members have comprehension issues.

 

[Exorcet]

Note my wording. I never accused the engineers of poor engineering, or poor quality. I said the job was poor. Again, I've said several times, engineers work within the briefs designed by marketing and accountants. If the marketing and accountants said it had to be done by increasing displacement then I'd say that's a pretty poor brief, for a poor job.

What if the engineers OK'd the displacement up with the marketers before hand? Do you have some inside connections with Chrysler?

Also, supposing the increase in displacement is purely for marketing reasons, and assuming that the engineers hate the idea, what's stopping them from adding all kinds of technology to the 8.7 L engine?

few are doing to an engine that is already seen as one of, if not the, largest displacements in a mass produced car.

I don't see why the fact that Viper has more displacement than 99.99% of cars is important. If it's OK to go from 3 to 4 L, why is it not OK to go from 8 to 9?

Imagine that the Viper had 15 L. Well, now it's just a car with a 15 L engine, why is there something wrong with that? It's not even particularly noteworthy except that it just happens to have more displacement than most other cars.

Not at all. By burning fuel more efficiently you are reducing waste energy in the forms of noise and heat and doing so at the most appropriate times in the power stroke.

I guess. But efficiency on the power stroke is the chemical energy of the fuel over the heat produced by combustion. Increase that, and you get more heat. Increasing displacement doesn't cause fuel being burnt at the wrong time.

And I don't dispute that. But why does it need to be bigger still? No one is threatening it's supremacy.

The only reason to not make it bigger is if it will bring negative consequences. If being 8.7 L does not bring negative consequences, then there is no reason to even care if the engine reaches that figure.

Would OHC really be blasphemy?

If it made the engine heavier, and then that extra mass at the front end of the car hurt cornering for no real power gains, then yes, it would be blasphemy.

 

[Tornado]

Let me lay out my whole discussion for you, in brief, your comprehension appears to lacking.

- I have no problem with past Vipers.
- I haven't stated the engineers are sub standard.
- "Poor job" refers to the job the engineers are required to do by the people that pay them.
- The Viper is in a process of refreshment, a new beginning to some extent.
- If the trend continues to keep increasing displacement to gain more power then where does the Viper draw the line? 10L, 12L, 15L?
- Why not use this refresh as a chance to introduce alternative methods of increasing output without bumping up the displacement any further.
- "Better methods" such as direct injection, changing engine architecture (Would OHC really be blasphemy?), FI. All will flexibly allow future power increases without moving ever-closer to the point of no-bigger.

Fair enough. Now let me point out my problems with your line of thought:

- If the trend continues to keep increasing displacement to gain more power then where does the Viper draw the line? 10L, 12L, 15L?

Give me a reason why this matters.

- Why not use this refresh as a chance to introduce alternative methods of increasing output without bumping up the displacement any further.

Give me a reason why they need to.

- "Better methods" such as direct injection, changing engine architecture (Would OHC really be blasphemy?), FI. All will flexibly allow future power increases without moving ever-closer to the point of no-bigger.

Give me a reason why doing these things is important.




Since there really is nothing inherently/objectively "better" about doing any of those things, particularly considering what the Viper is, why does it make any difference whatsoever that they didn't do them? You're entire argument is basically why it is some shameful thing that they didn't do these things and instead supposedly increased the displacement, so an actual reason why would be nice. Not simply saying that they didn't do them, and acting as if that alone isn't a good thing.

 

[Worst_Driver]

In my opinion, they should increase the displacement even more to break the 9 liter mark. Huge props to the SRT division that sticks to the N/A way while everyone puts turbos and superchargers in their engines. I litterally can't wait to see the next viper which I hope will have a bigger engine than in the current one, without forced induction, and still be raw as a wild animal because that is what makes a viper a viper.

 

[JCE]

Isn't the point of having a Viper, a huge engine, a clunky proper manual gearbox, and some seats? And then smoke almost everything you run across in a straight line?

I've driven a '97 GTS a while back, and it just such an awesome car, the steering, the brakes, the gearbox, it all feels so heavy, like a truck, but the power. The POWER. 👍

The first/second generation's transmission was a huge clunker to use no doubt, seriously heavy clutch and throw. However, the third generation's (2003-2006) Tremec T56 is mega smooth thanks to a lighter quicker throw and lighter clutch with an overall smoother shifter feel. I felt like I was driving a premium Euro sports car in terms of how I felt rowing through the gears. I haven't driven the newest gen (2008-2010) with the new Tremec TR6060 but I have driven the GT500 with that transmission and it feels pretty much similar to the T56 in the previous gen Viper minus the new TR6060 has an even smoother shifter feel.

 

[Cano]

I'm not contesting other companies are choosing to increase displacements, but few are doing to an engine that is already seen as one of, if not the, largest displacements in a mass produced car.

And why does it bothers you so much? Heck, why does it matter? So if the next, say, Lambo had a 9 litre V12, and then in two years they had it at 9.5, it would also be bad? I'm sure you wouldn't care because it's european, high-tech and the block doesn't traces it's heritage from a truck.

I love these kind of "car guys".

And regarding what has been said about the Viper bein' able to fly around a course, heck YES. I was able to slip in the passenger seat the last time the magazine borrowed one from Chrysler, because I really thought that it wouldn't be a fast car around bends and such, and wanted bad to be proved wrong. And damn was I proved wrong. And I didn't even drove it lol.

 

[Horde_R35]

You want rad? Why not going 10.000cc?! Wheres the tecnology in that? Really 8.7?

 

[Jim Prower]

For you standard people, it's a 530. which means it still has a bit to go to get to the 572ci limit imposed for monster trucks.

Would love to see one cradled in a Patrick or Racesource chassis, with a big blower on top and shorty headers hanging off the side.

 

[Keef]

If they do that I'd pity the engineering team for their poor job.

Why? All that means is it's trying even less hard to be brutally powerful. If they simply made the engine bigger I would applaud them for achieving the same results without a ludicrous and wasteful engineering budget.

For an example, part of the LSx engine family's history of being the greatest engine family on the entire planet is it's relatively basic, simply design. From a size standpoint, it is at least 6 inches lower than any comparable OHC engine, and quite a bit lighter because it doesn't have gigantic heads on top, and contributes to the car's lower center of gravity because of that. The engines can be relatively inexpensive, which is why they're swapped into almost everything, or they can be quite strongly engineered, which is why they've won so many races in various top-level series around the world, not to mention all the power and speed records. It's also the most useable engine family in the world, powering everything from cargo vans to the ZR1. In its most efficient form, you'll be getting upwards of 26 mpg on the highway while also have over 400 horsepower on tap when you want it. GM has implemented variable valve timing and cylinder deactivation, and there has been news of direct injection in the engine's next generation.

Talking to the F1 crowd is like talking to a brick wall. Face it - the best engine on the planet is a big nasty hillbilly OHC V8 from Merica. The only reason the Viper V10 hasn't achieved as widespread of success is because it is not produced in prodigious numbers and bolted into every car in the lineup.

 

[Dan_]

The possibility of a downsized engine in the next-gen Viper was quite startling, Dodge is actually adding more displacement to please the muscle-car enthusiasts whilst refining the driving character of the car. It's not caused by lack of engineering skill or cost-cutting measures, it's just something they ought to make to suit the character of the car.

I don't see any reason to complain, it's actually a venerable decision and an acknowledgement to the compromise of building the most lovable hooligan of the american roads and above all else, a big ugly finger to those who thought that Fiat's takedown would make Dodge in any way, less american.

 

[Prosthetic]

You want rad? Why not going 10.000cc?! Wheres the tecnology in that? Really 8.7?

The point of a Viper isn't supposed to be a technological masterpiece.

8.7=awesome.

 

[Worst_Driver]

The point of a Viper isn't supposed to be a technological masterpiece.

8.7=awesome.

Finally someone that understands the concept of a viper. 👍

 

[oppositelock]

I, too, am disappointed in the new engine. Disappointed that they didn't change the bank angle to 60 degrees, tack on two more cylinders of the same displacement, and make a 10.0 liter V12. 750 naturally aspirated horsepower for 1/3 the price of an Aventador, anyone?

 

[YSSMAN]

Apparently you are unaware of who their corporate owners are, and what other brand is in the stable.

 

[Zenith]

Apparently you are unaware of who their corporate owners are, and what other brand is in the stable.

That is too perfect.

 

[S13DRIFTSPEC]

Even now the viper is STILL be one of the most pollutant cars in the world. the engine already has 8.4L of displacement. what is going to change from adding the .3L of displacement. Not much really as side from a little more power. in the end.... This is a DODGE VIPER an excessively ridiculous big ass engine in a sports car with 2 seats that pollutes and blow holes in the ozone layer and try to compensate for whatever inadequate situation you have in your pants.

 

[Wyvern_64]

Even now the viper is STILL be one of the most pollutant cars in the world. the engine already has 8.4L of displacement. what is going to change from adding the .3L of displacement. Not much really as side from a little more power. in the end.... This is a DODGE VIPER an excessively ridiculous big ass engine in a sports car with 2 seats that pollutes and blow holes in the ozone layer and try to compensate for whatever inadequate situation you have in your pants.

Yeah, compared to the millions and millions of big rig trucks out there the spew thick black smoke? Against relatively few Vipers? Seriously, think about it. One truck hauling a big load is far worse than a Viper, and think about how many of either you see in an average day. I see at least 5-10 trucks daily and I don't even drive around much, compared to one Viper monthly?

Anyways, can't wait to see the new Viper. That's one of my favorite car models, behind the R8's.

 

[Zenith]

whatever inadequate situation you have in your pants.

Says the drifter...

 

[S13DRIFTSPEC]

Yeah, compared to the millions and millions of big rig trucks out there the spew thick black smoke? Against relatively few Vipers? Seriously, think about it. One truck hauling a big load is far worse than a Viper, and think about how many of either you see in an average day. I see at least 5-10 trucks daily and I don't even drive around much, compared to one Viper monthly?

Anyways, can't wait to see the new Viper. That's one of my favorite car models, behind the R8's.

I thought about it, and trucks well they are a necessary evil. Anyway if you want to compare, compare the viper to the Mclaren MP4-12c and its emissions per LT for a super car its extremely low. Its nearly as low as a Dodge Nitro. Mind you it still eats up more gas than a nitro. But that's a different conversation. Anyway I don't hate on the viper. The comment I made was just a stereotype about pretty much every supercar out there. The viper fits the bill. But I really don't see the emissions going down unless chrysler decides on spending millions and millions of dollars developing another v10 engine for something that isnt very profitable.

Says the drifter...

hahah I don't have a drifting car my car is fwd. Although I ass drag in the snow which is fun.

 

[Wyvern_64]

Well, if I'm buying a Viper, I obviously don't care about fuel efficiency or emissions.

And this type of supercar is so uncommon it's hardly a problem. Improving that for a common road car millions of people are buying is more important.

I hope this new Viper is as good looking as the ACR.

 

[NLxAROSA]

I love the Viper, simply because it's a big "🤬 you" to current trends.