Gen 5 Dodge Viper

[eSZee]

Well, the original Viper engine did come out of the Ram (which, the point of using a truck engine instead of a Lamborghini engine is probably to keep the engine in-brand and to say the car has a 8.0L V10), but it was handed to Lamborghini to lighten it and make it fit into the Viper. In the end, I would say it was more of a Ram-sourced Lamborghini V10 than anything. The McLaren V10 in the SRT10 was probably more of taking the old Ram/Lambo engine and tweaking it.

As for Ferrari's involvement in the new V10. Well...Considering their racing pedigree and experience with powerful engines. The hope would be turning the SRT10 V10 into a beast. And, if Ferrari helps out with the design and build, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Viper return to racing in 2013/2014.

(Also, I wouldn't mind seeing Ferrari help Dodge with getting the Challenger and Charger geared up for road racing, as well.)

Right, Chrysler owned lambo at the time and the viper itself was Lambo's idea/concept/plan. Chrysler just gets the credit.
The engine is the old chrysler small block with 2 cylinders added. I thought lambo was responsible for the entire aluminum block as chrysler had no clue aluminum existed.
As for McLaren's involvement, I thought it was very minimal. Tuning and likely nothing else.

 

[RocZX]

It won't be called the 'Dodge' Viper any more http://jalopnik.com/5867703/2013-srt-viper-slithers-free-of-dodge-name

One Question Why << ??

Maybe they want to produce more performance oriented cars and make them their own brand.

 

[Adamgp]

Right, Chrysler owned lambo at the time and the viper itself was Lambo's idea/concept/plan. Chrysler just gets the credit.

Wow, not true at all.

 

[YSSMAN]

One Question Why << ??

Presumably to separate the SRT brand away from the others and make it more akin to an AMG, which is technically an independent subsidiary away from DaimlerBenz.

 

[SuperShouden]

It won't be called the 'Dodge' Viper any more http://jalopnik.com/5867703/2013-srt-viper-slithers-free-of-dodge-name

One Question Why << ??

Interesting. I wonder if FIAT's gonna split ALL the SRT cars away to form the "High performance" brand the Chrysler companies. But, I actually think this might be a good sign. Because, FIAT mentioned Ferrari's working with Dodge on the new V10, at least...and we know FITA, Alfa and Maserati have been tinkering with Dodge and Jeep vehicles...so...Perhaps, the Italians have tinkered with the Viper so much, that it's no longer right to call it a "Dodge" I'm thinking maybe a full Ferrari V10 and some sexy Italian styling. I'm feeling the Viper is about to be an Italian supercar.

But I would also welcome a dedicated SRT brand. The SRT Charger, Challenger, Durango, Cherokee, 300 and Viper....no losers there.

Right, Chrysler owned lambo at the time and the viper itself was Lambo's idea/concept/plan.

Actually, the Viper was a Carol Shelby idea/concept/plan. It was probably his idea, as well, to stick the big old Ram V10 in it. (If you look at the original Viper GTS, it has similar lines to the Shelby Cobra, which is probably why the final product was given a snake name. And the reason for the Ram V10 over the Lambo V10 was, I believe, Lamborghini was bought by Chrysler late in the planning process of the car. And re-casting the Ram's V10 was one of Lamborghini's first tasks with Chrysler. (Kind of a "Hey, Lamborghini, welcome to the company, here's our Ram V10. You can start working with it so that that little bity frame over there can actually move it and move it very fast.") (And yes, that's the main reason why the engine needed lightened. The small, lightweight frame of the GTS would NEVER have been able to move the original engine without some serious modifications...or at least, it wouldn't have moved very fast. And the big Ram V10 wouldn't have fit in the engine compartment of the Viper.)

 

[Joel]

I think making Ram its own brand was dumb, but I can see the SRT stuff working out well, YSSMAN brought up AMG, I think that's exactly what they're doing, and it could be interesting to see. Perhaps there'll be some new sports cars under that marque or the Challenger will get moved? Or as SuperShouden suggested, SRT versions of other performance vehicles (Charger, Challenger, etc.)

 

[SuperShouden]

"Huh...well, this really isn't a 'Dodge' Viper any more, is it?"

"No. It's more of a Ferrari Viper."

"But, we can't call it that. We'd get the Italians AND the Americans mad at us."

"That's true. Well, why don't we just call it an SRT10 Viper."

"No...too wordy. How about just SRT Viper. That way, we can split the SRT name away from Dodge and avoid calling it a 'Dodge' or a 'Ferrari.'"

"Perfect!"

 

[McLaren]

Well, the original Viper engine did come out of the Ram (which, the point of using a truck engine instead of a Lamborghini engine is probably to keep the engine in-brand and to say the car has a 8.0L V10), but it was handed to Lamborghini to lighten it and make it fit into the Viper. In the end, I would say it was more of a Ram-sourced Lamborghini V10 than anything. The McLaren V10 in the SRT10 was probably more of taking the old Ram/Lambo engine and tweaking it.

As for Ferrari's involvement in the new V10. Well...Considering their racing pedigree and experience with powerful engines. The hope would be turning the SRT10 V10 into a beast. And, if Ferrari helps out with the design and build, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Viper return to racing in 2013/2014.

(Also, I wouldn't mind seeing Ferrari help Dodge with getting the Challenger and Charger geared up for road racing, as well.)

Ferrari has already said they will have zero involvement in the building of the engine. The only thing they have done is offer advice & tips on how they should design the engine. No parts from the Italians will be used in the Viper at all.

 

[Joey D]

Ferrari has already said they will have zero involvement in the building of the engine. The only thing they have done is offer advice & tips on how they should design the engine. No parts from the Italians will be used in the Viper at all.

They should get the Italians to design it though and do the interior. Dodge already has the performance down, now it just needs looks and a nice interior and it will be able to be right up there with the Ferrari's.

 

[SuperShouden]

Right. And how many times have automakers said one thing and done another?

1. Tips and advice on how to design an engine is being involved in building the engine. Especially when you're probably designing a big V12 to stuff into the F70.

2. They said they'd have no involvement in the building of the engine. They never said anything about touching the exterior and interiors, though. And that is mainly what I was referring to. The design of the new Viper could be so far from anything Dodge has ever come up with, that FIAT decided to move it away from Dodge.

3. I can see Ferrari not touching the engine for now...but I do think, if Dodge and SRT are with FIAT for a while, the Viper will end up with a Ferrari V10 in the end...just like the C8 and Maseratis have Ferrari sourced V8s. I would really be interested to see what Ferrari would do with a V10, anyway.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I disagree with point 3. Maserati had absolutely no infrastructure when it was picked up by Ferrari, so not by choice did it end up with a Ferrari V8. The Viper is essentially defined by it's big V10, and all of the tooling to produce it already exists, not to mention the engineers who are responsible for it. From neither a economic nor marketing standpoint would it make sense to give it a V10 that doesn't even exist yet. Just think of the R&D that would require to even just match the current V10 in output.

 

[McLaren]

Right. And how many times have automakers said one thing and done another?

Considering the fact that both Ferrari and Chrysler have said the Viper will have no Italian parts, I'd reckon my point remains.

1. Tips and advice on how to design an engine is being involved in building the engine. Especially when you're probably designing a big V12 to stuff into the F70.

No, it's not. Chrysler consulted with Ferrari, but that doesn't mean Chrysler actually followed through with the advice given.

2. They said they'd have no involvement in the building of the engine. They never said anything about touching the exterior and interiors, though. And that is mainly what I was referring to. The design of the new Viper could be so far from anything Dodge has ever come up with, that FIAT decided to move it away from Dodge.

Ferrari is not sharing any parts with the Viper. They have absolutely no link to this car. This confirmed by Chrysler as well.

3. I can see Ferrari not touching the engine for now...but I do think, if Dodge and SRT are with FIAT for a while, the Viper will end up with a Ferrari V10 in the end...just like the C8 and Maseratis have Ferrari sourced V8s. I would really be interested to see what Ferrari would do with a V10, anyway.

No, it won't. Read what I said again. The new Viper will have no parts from the Italians.

As I told you back then.

http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/11/2...-boss-brand-just-wants-advice-from-maranello/

However, when asked by AutoWeek whether or not we can expect a Ferrari Dodge Viper, Gilles said &#8220;No.&#8221; Then what did the Dodge CEO mean by &#8220;opportunities are huge?&#8221;


&#8220;They really know sports cars. We just want some advice. Ferrari is Ferrari, Viper is Viper. Please don&#8217;t go there.&#8221;


Sorry for dreaming Gilles. We&#8217;ll keep our hopes down next time around.

From this month, again by Chrysler.

http://www.insideline.com/dodge/2013-srt-viper-will-shed-dodge-name.html


Reid also told Inside Line that the production 2013 Viper will debut next spring at the 2012 New York Auto Show and, contrary to earlier media speculation, it will share no parts with Maserati or Ferrari. The new Viper, Reid added, "is a totally separate car &#8212; no parts sharing" with the two Fiat Group premium sports-car brands.

Now, if you're going to continue to counter-argue, I'd like to see some proof then that Ferrari may have potentially "touched" the exterior or interior as you're hinting at, which would mean that this isn't a "totally separate car" that Chrysler says it is.

 

[YSSMAN]

Actually, the Viper was a Carol Shelby idea/concept/plan.

Uh, I believe it was Bob Lutz who spear-headed the Viper project for Chrysler back in the day.

 

[SuperShouden]

Uh, I believe it was Bob Lutz who spear-headed the Viper project for Chrysler back in the day.

Bob Lutz was later. Carroll Shelby helped design and develop the RT/10 and GTS. Heck, the whole idea behind the Viper was building a modern Cobra and design cues came from both the AC Cobra/Shelby and Shelby Daytona Cobra.

Bob Lutz essentially finalized the design, but Carroll Shelby was still very much a part of the development.

 

[Tornado]

Er, no. Shelby severed all ties with Chrysler in 1991 to go back to Ford. The GTS didn't come out until five years later.

 

[Snakebitten]

Lol. The Viper is such a polarizing car. Every forum I been on discussing the Viper, armchair "engineers" touting hp/ltr alway pop up to teach Team Viper how to make a proper sportscar and engine. Meanwhile they just go out and own pretty much every sportscar with better hp/ltr numbers with that "woefully old tech" lol.

I understand the need to find fault with a machine, that some look down on for misguided reasons, that keeps crushing the high tech latest and greatest. They lose site of the life lesson. Older doesn't necessarily mean useless, weaker, can do the job anymore. Sometimes technology moves in another direction because it's a new way of thinking and not necessarily because the old way is obsolete.

Cars like the Viper and Z06 serve as a reminder of that. The ACR used old tried and true aerodynamics instead of active aero and other high-tech solutions for aero that the competition uses. It also used tried and true engine and suspension tech whereas the high-tech competition uses cutting edge solutions. The result? The tried and true older stuff dominates as evidence by all the stateside track records it's broken by significant margins. And let's not forget what it's done to those same high-tech competition at the Nurburgring.

Chrysler is simply using a more economical approach to the same end. It won't satisfy the tech snobs among us but it has proven bloody effective.

 

[White & Nerdy]

I agree. I can't beleive the number of people who want the VIPER of all things to have a smaller engine. It's bad enough to actually want smaller engines in general, but the Viper? Come on.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

Yeah, Next viper should have 1l/piston and carburettors too.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I agree. I can't beleive the number of people who want the VIPER of all things to have a smaller engine. It's bad enough to actually want smaller engines in general, but the Viper? Come on.

Nothing wrong with smaller engines in general, but a Viper's signature is a huge v10 at front. Like how a true 911 needs a flat 6 in the rear.

 

[Joey D]

A smaller engine coupled with a lighter body would make the Viper way more competitive on the world stage. Sure it's got performance but it isn't civilized. Make it civilized and you'll have people leaving the European exotics for Dodge.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

What´s the fuzz about? They may still have a V10, but I don´t expect it to boast 8.2l. The LF-A runs a V10, and that is high levels of performance right there. A smaller V10 with a bit more tech attached to it may do just fine.

 

[Stavelot]

5.5l V10 maybe

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Cars like the Viper and Z06 serve as a reminder of that. The ACR used old tried and true aerodynamics instead of active aero and other high-tech solutions for aero. It also used tried and true engine and suspension tech whereas the high-tech competition uses cutting edge solutions. The result? The tried and true older stuff dominates as evidence by all the stateside track records it's broken by significant margins. And let's not forget what it's done to those same high-tech competition at the Nurburgring.

So what you're trying to say is that they use good ol' 'merican engineering.

HP/L is a pretty useless measure for a sports car anyway. You gain 0.5mpg in the city. Congrats

 

[SuperShouden]

I thought the new Viper was gonna have a big 8.6L V10. I thought Dodge had mentioned that a while ago.

 

[psntomaz]

Its a 8.7 L V10

 

[1241Penguin]

I agree. I can't beleive the number of people who want the VIPER of all things to have a smaller engine. It's bad enough to actually want smaller engines in general, but the Viper? Come on.

So what's wrong with smaller engines (not in the Viper)? Care to explain?

 

[Snakebitten]

So what you're trying to say is that they use good ol' 'merican engineering.

HP/L is a pretty useless measure for a sports car anyway. You gain 0.5mpg in the city. Congrats

Yep. Key word being "engineering". Listening to some of the armchair engineers in this thread you would think the Viper Team are a bunch of shade tree mechanics working from Henry Fords Model T blueprints to make the Viper lol.

The HP/ltr sound bite would hold water if the Viper couldn't compete with the cutting edge hyper/exotic/supercalafragilistic cars. But the opposite is true. It not only competes but dominates them. Why then would any "non biased" objective person find fault with the Viper formula?

 

[Zenith]

I agree. I can't beleive the number of people who want the VIPER of all things to have a smaller engine. It's bad enough to actually want smaller engines in general, but the Viper? Come on.

It already has massive amounts of engine displacement. Chopping it down a little bit still leaves you with one of the biggest (if not the biggest) sports car engine.

 

[Joey D]

Yep. Key word being "engineering". Listening to some of the armchair engineers in this thread you would think the Viper Team are a bunch of shade tree mechanics working from Henry Fords Model T blueprints to make the Viper lol.

Having met two members of the Viper Build Team makes I can tell you that's not exactly true. They were like any other blue collar employee that screws things together, not magic men who were the gurus of all things automotive.

 

[Snakebitten]

A smaller engine coupled with a lighter body would make the Viper way more competitive on the world stage. Sure it's got performance but it isn't civilized. Make it civilized and you'll have people leaving the European exotics for Dodge.

You missed the whole point about the Vipers very existence. Its not a car that conforms. It was designed to be raw in your face with everything. It is uncivilized by nature. What you want is a Porsche, Merc etc and there are tons of cars for those that want civilized driving.

LFA, GTR embodies Japanese tradition and approach to building cars.

Ferrari, Lambo, Maserati etc embody Italian tradition and approach to building cars.

BMW, Merc yada yada yada etc you get the point.

The Viper, Corvette, Ford GT etc embody American tradition and approach to building cars.

Id hate a world where every car was small displacement with high specific output and sounded like bees in a can. I love the high pitch wail of a high reving V10 like the LFA, M5 or the Ferrari/Lambo V8-V12's. I also love the sound of a guttural V8 a la Corvette, AMG cars, Mustang. I love the variety and appreciate each approach as they are all extremely capable at what they do.

How come the Veyron doesnt get this kind of disecting lol. Its 8 ltrs in an even bigger engine than the Viper and it needlessly uses 4 turbos with 8ltrs to put out ONLY 1000hp? Oh wait its European and its mega money etc lol.