Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

[CarreraGT]

I also forgot to mention Race Room Experience. Best sound of any racing game ever IMO

 

[Griffith500]

Ha, the phasing I had in there is more to do with my laptop's mic picking up itself. I, like an idiot, forgot to use my headphones. You can even hear the delay when I hit play or pause.

The problem is, "phase" is just a frequency-dependent analogue for time. "Phasing" is everything, then. I tend to abuse the term a lot, but when the phases of different frequencies shift relative to each other, it has a distinctive sound - I tend to call that phasing. A chorus effect is one way of achieving that, although it works better if you vary the delay as well.

When you have two sounds with similar harmonic content, but slightly different phases in those harmonics, blending them gives phase shifts among the harmonics. This is accentuated (or rather, compounded) if there is a slight misalignment in the two sounds (like a chorus) or if the frequencies oscillate slightly (rpm fluctuations in the recording).

For the basic reason behind that, see this; also play with this.
Specifically, click "sine" and then start messing with the sine and cosine amplitudes of the fundamental and watch what happens to the waveform (alternatively, click "phase shift" a few times to see what to do); then leave the fundamental "on" and mess with the next harmonic's amplitudes; add another, etc. Check the mag/phase plot as a comparison, although it doesn't update the phases until you "unclick" them or click on the background, and make sure to turn on sound, although it's loud. Reducing the base frequency and / or number of terms and repeatedly clicking "noise" should give flashbacks for anyone who's authored engine sound sample sets before; play with the phases there, too.

Since every looping sample-based synth in every racing game has this sound, most people are used to it. I personally hate it, but there isn't yet an alternative available, and my attempts to find a way around it have only failed. It's technically possible, though.

 

[Imari]

When you think about it, GT is the only series on PS that is marketed as a "simulator". It has the biggest development budget of any car game. It's sounds should blow away the rest of the games on PS and yet we are constantly asking ourselves to compare arcade and smash em' up games to GT sound and GT is now failing most or all of those comparisons. That's bass ackwards to me...

F1CE, F1 2010/2011/2012, WRC 1/2/3/4, Ferrari Challenge/Supercar Challenge, Nascar 2011/Inside Line.

Shift and Shift 2 were marketed as simulators, even if they sort of weren't.
The SBK and MotoGP series if you don't mind deviating into motorbikes (if only because a bike sim has a lot in common with a car sim).

GT is the only game that claims to be a simulator of anything more than a niche segment, but it's not the only simulator available.

 

[R.S]

I really don't think there is a RAM or processing issue. Sound is cheap as chips compared to high rate physics or textures, graphics or near-HD post processing (bloom and stuff). (unless your playing 100's of sounds at the same time with environment specific reverb).

Later PS2 games (ie NFSU2) sound better than GT5, as does pretty much any other PS3 car game.

IMO it's a design choice ("our sounds are too realistic") or sounds are just not/have not a priority.

 

[RACECAR]

F1CE, F1 2010/2011/2012, WRC 1/2/3/4, Ferrari Challenge/Supercar Challenge, Nascar 2011/Inside Line.

Shift and Shift 2 were marketed as simulators, even if they sort of weren't.
The SBK and MotoGP series if you don't mind deviating into motorbikes (if only because a bike sim has a lot in common with a car sim).

GT is the only game that claims to be a simulator of anything more than a niche segment, but it's not the only simulator available.

Not sure the bolded ones count though as they are multi-platform and I think he means solely PS exclusives.

 

[Imari]

Not sure the bolded ones count though as they are multi-platform and I think he means solely PS exclusives.

Maybe so, I assumed just "games on PS3".

 

[machschnel]

Not sure the bolded ones count though as they are multi-platform and I think he means solely PS exclusives.

In the context of "does the PS3 have enough ram for good sounds", I think they are still relevant. Being on Xbox doesn't change the fact they still had to deal with the PS3 "ram issue".

 

[RACECAR]

In the context of "does the PS3 have enough ram for good sounds", I think they are still relevant. Being on Xbox doesn't change the fact they still had to deal with the PS3 "ram issue".

I'm not saying whether it does or not, I was trying to specify that he may have been talking about PS exclusive titles.

 

[Imari]

I'm not saying whether it does or not, I was trying to specify that he was talking about PS exclusive titles.

May have been talking about PS exclusive titles. You should probably let him speak for himself as to what his intended meaning was.

 

[RACECAR]

Meant to say "May have".

 

[Raitziger]

In the context of "does the PS3 have enough ram for good sounds", I think they are still relevant. Being on Xbox doesn't change the fact they still had to deal with the PS3 "ram issue".

This. I was not referring to 1st party 3rd party thing. 1st party games should be and sound better anyways if we take platform optimization into account.
PD simply did not hold sounds as important as graphics and physics when developing GT5.

 

[Griffith500]

I really don't think there is a RAM or processing issue. Sound is cheap as chips compared to high rate physics or textures, graphics or near-HD post processing (bloom and stuff). (unless your playing 100's of sounds at the same time with environment specific reverb).

Later PS2 games (ie NFSU2) sound better than GT5, as does pretty much any other PS3 car game.

IMO it's a design choice ("our sounds are too realistic") or sounds are just not/have not a priority.

You can't imagine that that's the issue, so that's not the issue? Interesting.
Sound is not as cheap as chips; sound is generally neglected. There's a difference. Graphics would be cheap as chips if we still had the same approach from the '90s there, too.

The main reason for GT5 sounding the way it does is sample format and scheme. These are the same as they were in GT2, broadly. As it turns out, these are "placeholder" for GT6, and I'd wager for PS3 altogether.

You're right, though, it is a design choice. I think they got to making GT4 and realised they had to re-do every car because of a systematic error in their recording method (which they "fixed" before GT4 released). Rather than put all that work into some contemporary mediocrity (see above), they decided to look a bit further forwards and try something "completely new". Except that turned out to be really difficult ("fail gloriously") and we're still waiting...

This. I was not referring to 1st party 3rd party thing. 1st party games should be and sound better anyways if we take platform optimization into account.
PD simply did not hold sounds as important as graphics and physics when developing GT5.

The sound engine says otherwise; also what I wrote above. It wouldn't surprise me if PD have been working on these sounds for the PS3 from the start, or at least with a mind to get them onto the PS3 in some form once they got them working in a more forgiving form.

Granted, we could have done with something intermediate since the new stuff isn't here yet, but that might technically be a case of 20/20 hindsight.

 

[Imari]

Except that turned out to be really difficult ("fail gloriously") and we're still waiting...

I don't think this is an example of failing gloriously. That would be putting the new sound system in regardless of it not being quite ready/capable. You do your best and put it out, and if people don't like it then it fails.

What PD has done is just stick with the same old tried and true, presumably until they're sure that they can knock it out of the park. That's not courage, that's cowardice. They're worried that their new system might not be good enough yet.

This is assuming that they have something actually workable. But since they've been mentioning new sounds since before GT5, and it was an identified problem since potentially as far back as before GT4, if they haven't got it by now then it's probably not something that you can just fix by working harder. It's more likely to be a technology gap, in which case new sounds were never an option and we'll be waiting until console tech catches up with whatever they're trying to do.

 

[Zer0]

What PD has done is just stick with the same old tried and true, presumably until they're sure that they can knock it out of the park. That's not courage, that's cowardice. They're worried that their new system might not be good enough yet.

Then how you see the release of time changes and weather in GT5 and the lack of them in the competence even being in a vastly superior hardware?

They are brave and you admire for it for trying and you see the competence as being coward for not even trying?

 

[PepeMickey]

Then how you see the release of time changes and weather in GT5 and the lack of them in the competence even being in a vastly superior hardware? They are brave and you admire for it for trying and you see the competence as being coward for not even trying?

Well, they're doing the same, PD with sounds and T10 with weather/day/ night, the difference is that T10 isn't ruining the experience while PD has been doing it for a decade now.

 

[Imari]

Then how you see the release of time changes and weather in GT5 and the lack of them in the competence even being in a vastly superior hardware?

They are brave and you admire for it for trying and you see the competence as being coward for not even trying?

I'm sorry, what?

The limited releases of time and weather are a great example of failing gloriously. It's not a full feature, but they did it anyway. It seriously affects frame rates and gameplay, but at least they tried. I'm not sure I'd call it a failure although it's almost certainly not a rousing success, but they get points for having a go. That was a brave move.

I spoke specifically in the previous post about sounds, in the sound thread. If they'd chosen to roll out "premium sounds", that probably would have failed gloriously. As it is, they didn't try.

If you don't try, you can't fail. And you certainly can't fail gloriously.

It's entirely possible to be cowardly in some areas of the game and courageous in others. It's probably entirely different people making the decisions on how the sound and lighting will be approached, for that matter. If we're judging the whole game then it's a different matter, but here in this thread we're talking about one specific aspect of Gran Turismo: the sound.

 

[Tenacious D]

In the context of "does the PS3 have enough ram for good sounds", I think they are still relevant. Being on Xbox doesn't change the fact they still had to deal with the PS3 "ram issue".

I guess I'll bring up the only other relevant game for this discussion again.

Forza is the only other comparable game to Gran Turismo to my knowledge, in which you can have 16 unique cars from dozens of manufacturers and particular engine/exhaust configurations - and thus sounds - to deal with in a race. And in Forza 4 they have one good sample set, the "focus car," and generic samples for the rest. Some cars have the exact same sample set for each of the five driver views.

If Turn 10 couldn't do it with potentially more available system ram on an "easier to develop for" system... well, guess the rest.

 

[Scaff]

This is not a GT vs FM thread.

Stop using at as one, because those who continue will find the staff coming down on them hard,in particular those members who have been spoken to about this in the past.

 

[Tenacious D]

Never mind, not worth it. I guess I'll have to go to the Playstation boards to make proper comparisons with the rest of the gaming universe because the rules here are so special or something.

 

[machschnel]

I guess I'll bring up the only other relevant game for this discussion again.

Forza is the only other comparable game to Gran Turismo to my knowledge, in which you can have 16 unique cars from dozens of manufacturers and particular engine/exhaust configurations - and thus sounds - to deal with in a race. And in Forza 4 they have one good sample set, the "focus car," and generic samples for the rest. Some cars have the exact same sample set for each of the five driver views.

If Turn 10 couldn't do it with potentially more available system ram on an "easier to develop for" system... well, guess the rest.

Shift 2?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Never mind, not worth it. I guess I'll have to go to the Playstation boards to make proper comparisons with the rest of the gaming universe because the rules here are so special or something.

GT5 vs FM4 physics, FM4 vs GT5 (general), the pre-FPlanet FM4 vs GT5 thread, FM5 vs GT6...

There are plenty of places to do the comparison thing; that's precisely why we usher people over to them. You're one of the few people who repeatedly have an issue with this simple concept, and prefer to treat whichever thread you choose to become the next VS thread. This isn't necessary.

 

[ZoidFile]

This is not a GT vs FM thread.

Stop using at as one, because those who continue will find the staff coming down on them hard,in particular those members who have been spoken to about this in the past.

So the staff is "coming down" on people who discuss FM vs GT in the forum, but has no problem with staff members writing huge Forza 5 articles the GT-planet homepage? Its kind of counter productive isn't it?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

So the staff is "coming down" on people who discuss FM vs GT in the forum, but has no problem with staff members writing huge Forza 5 articles the GT-planet homepage? Its kind of counter productive isn't it?

See above for the bunch of links where we actively encourage said discussion.

As for the Weekly Rewind (which quite obviously isn't an entire article on only FM5), it covers two of the biggest franchises that bring in traffic to the site. It also covers other games too, such as pCARS, when the author deems it appropriate. Speaking of counter-productive; if you have qualms of any sort with the news articles, by all means, mention it over in Site Support.

 

[Terronium-12]

So the staff is "coming down" on people who discuss FM vs GT in the forum, but has no problem with staff members writing huge Forza 5 articles the GT-planet homepage? Its kind of counter productive isn't it?

Oh, and here I thought your comment was a genuine inquiry.

Nice spin on the situation as well. This isn't the appropriate thread to discuss the merits of either game, and we do have threads (as mentioned already) that takes care of that.

As for the Forza mention in the Weekly Rewind, until I'm told otherwise, it will remain right where it is. Thank you.

 

[Zer0]

GT5 vs FM4 physics, FM4 vs GT5 (general), the pre-FPlanet FM4 vs GT5 thread, FM5 vs GT6...

There are plenty of places to do the comparison thing; that's precisely why we usher people over to them. You're one of the few people who repeatedly have an issue with this simple concept, and prefer to treat whichever thread you choose to become the next VS thread. This isn't necessary.

Then why the sound comparisons are allowed in this thread? that's an open door to compare games.

 

[Griffith500]

I don't think this is an example of failing gloriously. That would be putting the new sound system in regardless of it not being quite ready/capable. You do your best and put it out, and if people don't like it then it fails.

What PD has done is just stick with the same old tried and true, presumably until they're sure that they can knock it out of the park. That's not courage, that's cowardice. They're worried that their new system might not be good enough yet.

This is assuming that they have something actually workable. But since they've been mentioning new sounds since before GT5, and it was an identified problem since potentially as far back as before GT4, if they haven't got it by now then it's probably not something that you can just fix by working harder. It's more likely to be a technology gap, in which case new sounds were never an option and we'll be waiting until console tech catches up with whatever they're trying to do.

Well, no, you set out to do your best; if you fail, you fail gloriously. It's just a philosophy, rather than a description of events. It ties back into the discussion about staff numbers and attitudes to game development - I quoted Warren Spector, basically. It's their trying something new rather than doing what everyone else is doing. I think we can afford at least one developer that luxury, if only out of curiosity.

I personally think the system isn't working on PS3, simple as that. It's not that it's "not sounding good enough", it just doesn't run with the resources available. You start with the format that works, that sounds how you want it with the features you need, then strip it back with layers of simplifications and optimisations and hacks until it works in real-time on the platform you have. It's how graphics is tackled, and it's how I tackle sound problems.

Those simplifications will mostly be in control terms, which result in reductions of expressivity (time change vs. fixed time) - not something anyone's going to notice given the general level of expression in racing game sounds at the moment.

I've no idea why you think they're not trying, though. The old "PD are lazy" trope?


Weather and time of day are different, in that the viability, in performance / quality terms, is dependent heavily on the layout and geometry of particular circuits (going by what Kaz has said; but it just makes sense, too). Lots of relatively small objects casting shadows everywhere? No chance, at least not if you want it to look vaguely respectable.
There is an analogue in that vein to sounds; that'd be things like number of exhaust outlets, turbo or not etc. That's much easier to tackle, though and can be engineered to fit into broad categories - a track is unique, and is the way it is, because that's what it looks like in the real world, and you have to work around that.

 

[AnAL0G]

What PD has done is just stick with the same old tried and true, presumably until they're sure that they can knock it out of the park. That's not courage, that's cowardice. They're worried that their new system might not be good enough yet.

Nothing wrong with that, imo. If you have something that works, why put out something mediocre if you feel that you can polish it to something a lot better with a bit more time? So they put out something that's not there yet, then everyone slags them for it. Doesn't make sense from a business/reputation standpoint. I'd rather people be frustrated at having to stick with something a little longer that actually works than to put out something that doesn't represent the best of our abilities just to make a few impatient people a little happier.

 

[R.S]

Nothing wrong with that, imo. If you have something that works, why put out something mediocre if you feel that you can polish it to something a lot better with a bit more time? So they put out something that's not there yet, then everyone slags them for it. Doesn't make sense from a business/reputation standpoint. I'd rather people be frustrated at having to stick with something a little longer that actually works than to put out something that doesn't represent the best of our abilities just to make a few impatient people a little happier.

I don't understand that logic, I mean you will never reach perfect.
Gran Turismo is not a subscription service with monthly updates, it's a product we buy outright on the premise that we will enjoy it, get our money's worth and which will meet our expectations.

Publishers hopes the game was received well enough to sell a future release. If you make a crap product (ie does not meet expectations) people won't buy the sequel.
You can't rely on the Gran Turismo good name forever, eventually people will move on or a competition will take over.


*suppose* they could have released -at least mediocre- sounds for GT5(like every other car game has achieved, even some on PS2) I think they would have had much a better reception and better outcome for the titles reputation than sticking with the same old piss poor sound generation method.

They could then say that we have noticeably improved the sounds but they are not 100% where we would like however we expect we can far improve them for GT6.


More importantly those who bought GT5 potentially would have had greater enjoyment of the title. In the end there was only 1 car in GT5 that I personally drove, that was the speed12 - the only car IMO with some energy in its sound. Bit of a waste of the other 999 cars.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I personally think the system isn't working on PS3, simple as that. It's not that it's "not sounding good enough", it just doesn't run with the resources available. You start with the format that works, that sounds how you want it with the features you need, then strip it back with layers of simplifications and optimisations and hacks until it works in real-time on the platform you have. It's how graphics is tackled, and it's how I tackle sound problems.

I've no idea why you think they're not trying, though. The old "PD are lazy" trope?

If it is as you say and the sounds system just isn't working on PS3 the wouldn't it be logical to give up trying to do anything with it and focus on PS4 sound? In that case, wouldn't it also mean they are no longer trying, when it comes to PS3? The lazy comment is just ignorance (not from you, from those that continually lose it).

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Then why the sound comparisons are allowed in this thread? that's an open door to compare games.

They shouldn't be there have been many (like myself) that have called for that to stop because it then fans out into a general vs. thread, if you want to argue me on the ethics of this we can do so in private, but the mods spoke already. The point is if you think a comparison should be made, why not be a general one and say "certain games" instead of making it specific and thus enticing people to flame or detract from the direct threads. Also the only comparison I think we should all be making is how close GT are getting to real life. The obvious goal is to do it the best, not better than such and such.