Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

[Chippy569]

Also the only comparison I think we should all be making is how close GT are getting to real life. The obvious goal is to do it the best, not better than such and such.

While I agree that the most valid comparison is against what you experience in real life, how many people on this board have first-hand experience driving something like a 908 in anger? I'm going to guess about 0. So we have to have some other way of extrapolating what "real" must be. In some cases, that might be youtube videos or other similar media, but we all know that's not the same as an actual 1st-hand experience. In other cases, we might look to say hollywood films which supplant the missing "emotion" or "impact" of a video with other things so that the viewer gets the same feeling as the 1st-hand experience, but that clearly is not real either. The other valid option is to look at what other games do in order to decipher not only what aspects are acceptable as real, but also consider how those games are achieving it. As long as the discussion is strictly on the sound I can see those things being within the scope of this thread, although I'm not a moderator so...

If the running joke is that the sounds haven't changed since PS2-era, and the sounds back then were acceptable, then it is solely because other games and media have come along and done "better" that we now consider GT's sound "inferior."

 

[Johnnypenso]

While I agree that the most valid comparison is against what you experience in real life, how many people on this board have first-hand experience driving something like a 908 in anger? I'm going to guess about 0. So we have to have some other way of extrapolating what "real" must be. In some cases, that might be youtube videos or other similar media, but we all know that's not the same as an actual 1st-hand experience. In other cases, we might look to say hollywood films which supplant the missing "emotion" or "impact" of a video with other things so that the viewer gets the same feeling as the 1st-hand experience, but that clearly is not real either. The other valid option is to look at what other games do in order to decipher not only what aspects are acceptable as real, but also consider how those games are achieving it. As long as the discussion is strictly on the sound I can see those things being within the scope of this thread, although I'm not a moderator so...

Other games only show you what is possible, the true comparison is real life. That's the goal, to simulate real life, not another game. It's not hard to listen to cars in GT5 and realize that almost everything is missing from the sound except for plain vanilla engine sounds and a generic transmission whine, and most of the samples are poor or incorrect. To suggest you can't glean what real cars should sound like from the wealth of media available at your finger tips is ludicrous.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

More than 800 cars in GT5 are street car or stock when bought, they sound like everyday cars, muffled exhaust, relatively quiet interior I think anyone who have driven ordinary car in real life would know what is realistic, just saying. I should say no game has manage to do it ( stock street car in game sound like in real life regardless of view point )

Car sound in games should make us feel like inside of a real car, regardless if it's street car with full comfort and quietness or racing car with full blown raging noise.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

While I agree that the most valid comparison is against what you experience in real life, how many people on this board have first-hand experience driving something like a 908 in anger? I'm going to guess about 0. So we have to have some other way of extrapolating what "real" must be. In some cases, that might be youtube videos or other similar media, but we all know that's not the same as an actual 1st-hand experience. In other cases, we might look to say hollywood films which supplant the missing "emotion" or "impact" of a video with other things so that the viewer gets the same feeling as the 1st-hand experience, but that clearly is not real either. The other valid option is to look at what other games do in order to decipher not only what aspects are acceptable as real, but also consider how those games are achieving it. As long as the discussion is strictly on the sound I can see those things being within the scope of this thread, although I'm not a moderator so...

If the running joke is that the sounds haven't changed since PS2-era, and the sounds back then were acceptable, then it is solely because other games and media have come along and done "better" that we now consider GT's sound "inferior."

But we know what they sound with in cam and there is a good number of us that have been to Le Mans and seen them in action. I get what your getting at but trying to top your simulation of another simulation is counter productive to the real idea of a simulation and that is life. We can deduce what a car sounds like without being the driver of it, and so can Gt when they actually get to model and record and they get more of a personal experience than us. So their should be no excuse. The execution of who is better should be done on the appropriate threads and not here.

Also Hollywood comparison is misplaced, they tend to purposely not go the norm cause it isn't "cool or grabbing enough". If Hollywood had the choice the 908 would have a Ferrari V12 sound or a cool Aston Martin/Corvette racing V8. I don't think anyone thinks their simulation is a simulation.

 

[Griffith500]

I don't understand that logic, I mean you will never reach perfect.
Gran Turismo is not a subscription service with monthly updates, it's a product we buy outright on the premise that we will enjoy it, get our money's worth and which will meet our expectations.

Publishers hopes the game was received well enough to sell a future release. If you make a crap product (ie does not meet expectations) people won't buy the sequel.
You can't rely on the Gran Turismo good name forever, eventually people will move on or a competition will take over.


*suppose* they could have released -at least mediocre- sounds for GT5(like every other car game has achieved, even some on PS2) I think they would have had much a better reception and better outcome for the titles reputation than sticking with the same old piss poor sound generation method.

They could then say that we have noticeably improved the sounds but they are not 100% where we would like however we expect we can far improve them for GT6.


More importantly those who bought GT5 potentially would have had greater enjoyment of the title. In the end there was only 1 car in GT5 that I personally drove, that was the speed12 - the only car IMO with some energy in its sound. Bit of a waste of the other 999 cars.

Again, this is all fine in hindsight. We have no idea exactly how long PD have been trying to get this new method to run on the PS3; for all we know it may have been intended for GT5.

When what you've been working on simply refuses to run on the resources you have, what do you do? Fall back on what you already have: GT4.
Obviously, they could have paid more attention when falling backwards like that, since a lot of the sounds are just incorrectly allocated - I think that's from focusing 100% on the new sounds, rightly or wrongly.

Could they, after GT5, have worked on an intermediate method? Maybe, ignoring the potential doubling of the workload. I still think they should (have) automatically render(ed) their new method into samples of the same format used in GT5 and use those in GT6, leaving the new real-time synthesis technique for PS4 (although it's certainly too late for that now if they haven't already done it). PD are obviously keen to persevere on PS3.


There's still this possible patch. I don't know what practical limit there is for patch sizes (I know there's no imposed limit, but it's got to stop somewhere, right?), and I don't know how large the sound data will be per car for the new system. Assuming that the only thing that is holding them up is the computation / implementation side of things, they could put both the old and the new sound data on the Blu Ray and keep tinkering in the background before issuing a code patch to switch the method over.

 

[Tenacious D]

Then why the sound comparisons are allowed in this thread? that's an open door to compare games.

Because obviously comparisons are only allowed when they make Gran Turismo or PD look bad.

Well, it sure seems that way sometimes, and you know, people have given me some rather telling goodbye messages, or "I feel I can't even post, how do you keep doing it?" Sure, you can post about how a certain competitor isn't all that and heaven on a cracker. In forums where fannishness reigns supreme. Or it did, and I have a feeling the environment hasn't changed a whole any...

Griffith500 has been a stalwart in a flood of pre-judgment. Even posting a video of sound improvements gets ignored. And of course since every game has several hundred unique cars, most of then street machines, naturally PD are some kind of incompetents. Except, woops, most games have a hundred cars, if that, and usually race cars. The one game which is remotely like Gran Turismo and has similar issues of its own, you can't mention without suffering the grapes of wrath, especially from a few mods here.

So, Griff is struggling valiantly to explain the technical intricacies of not just sound design, but getting a concise and CPU-light sound engine to run well in a game environment in which it has to fight for clock cycles and ram along with insanely good graphics, maligned but still extremely good physics, A.I. which really isn't much worse than anyone else's polite cruise missile bots, weather and time of day transitions, 3D implementation, yadda yadda. Oh, but of course all that is mute because EVERY game does all that with thousands of cars... oh wait. Well, GT is still sucky.

I think Griff is one of those guys who deserves a GTP medal of some kind.

This place is a weird microcosm, I gotta say...

 

[Scaff]

Then why the sound comparisons are allowed in this thread? that's an open door to compare games.

Did Slip or I put an exception in for sound comparisons when we posted?

No we didn't, which means from this point on they stop, not really a difficult one to understand.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

daft write up

Yet more, tin foil hat conspiracy back peddling to try and help save face for GT due to it now being a sport and not fully thinking it deserves the merit. A knee jerk reaction to the rules being imposed as they always have and since you didn't get your way you want to play the empathy card yet again.

We get it Tenacious you like GT so much more than anyone else.

 

[MeanElf]

...There are plenty of places to do the comparison thing; that's precisely why we usher people over to them...

I'd hardly call using bold font, ushering. Whilst I appreciate along with most posters that some kind of order and rules do need to be laid out to keep things relatively on track, I agree with TD below that this seems somewhat randomly implemented.

I also appreciate that this is probably not the wisest thing to say to a mod. I do feel however that you guys need to be made aware of how these discussions and reprimands can be preceived.

Having already received a slap on the wrist of sorts for apparently aligning myself with a member that was subsequently banned, I bowed out and dropped the issue as I did not feel I could enter into a useful dialogue at that time.

Like I say, I'm not pointing a finger but I do hope that with two similar posts about this in a short space of time, the situation might be looked at differently perhaps.

Because obviously comparisons are only allowed when they make Gran Turismo or PD look bad.

Well, it sure seems that way sometimes, and you know, people have given me some rather telling goodbye messages, or "I feel I can't even post, how do you keep doing it?" Sure, you can post about how a certain competitor isn't all that and heaven on a cracker. In forums where fannishness reigns supreme. Or it did, and I have a feeling the environment hasn't changed a whole any...

Griffith500 has been a stalwart in a flood of pre-judgment. Even posting a video of sound improvements gets ignored. And of course since every game has several hundred unique cars, most of then street machines, naturally PD are some kind of incompetents. Except, woops, most games have a hundred cars, if that, and usually race cars. The one game which is remotely like Gran Turismo and has similar issues of its own, you can't mention without suffering the grapes of wrath, especially from a few mods here.

So, Griff is struggling valiantly to explain the technical intricacies of not just sound design, but getting a concise and CPU-light sound engine to run well in a game environment in which it has to fight for clock cycles and ram along with insanely good graphics, maligned but still extremely good physics, A.I. which really isn't much worse than anyone else's polite cruise missile bots, weather and time of day transitions, 3D implementation, yadda yadda. Oh, but of course all that is mute because EVERY game does all that with thousands of cars... oh wait. Well, GT is still sucky.

I think Griff is one of those guys who deserves a GTP medal of some kind.

This place is a weird microcosm, I gotta say...

 

[Scaff]

I'd hardly call using bold font, ushering. Whilst I appreciate along with most posters that some kind of order and rules do need to be laid out to keep things relatively on track, I agree with TD below that this seems somewhat randomly implemented.

I also appreciate that this is probably not the wisest thing to say to a mod. I do feel however that you guys need to be made aware of how these discussions and reprimands can be preceived.

No its not the wisest thing to say at all.

The staff have let things run in this thread up the point that it got heated more times that we found to be good, as such we have asked people to stop with the 'vs.' posts in the hope that it would calm things down.

It would seem that has not had the desired effect, so let me make this quite simple.

This thread is not for comparisons, anyone ignoring that from this point on (or arguing about how or why the staff have made that instruction) will be leaving the site for a few days (or longer depending on you infractions history).

This not a subject for debate or discussion.

 

[Tenacious D]

Boy, that's for dang sure.

Well, Griff, maybe you could bring up that partnership with Yamaha again... or something. Or maybe we should just cave and all agree that PD really is just the lamest developer ever, for the sake of peace in our time...

Yet more, tin foil hat conspiracy back peddling to try and help save face for GT due to it now being a sport and not fully thinking it deserves the merit. A knee jerk reaction to the rules being imposed as they always have and since you didn't get your way you want to play the empathy card yet again.

We get it Tenacious you like GT so much more than anyone else.

Well, do elaborate on the daftness of my post. I'm all eyes.

 

[RACECAR]

How about we just go back to the reasonable discussion we had before all this arguing started?


Frankly, all these threads have been nothing but UFC (like I don't get enough of that on Fox Sports None) and I would just like to go back to an actual discussion on said topic instead of returning to another useless argument.

 

[Scaff]

@ LMSCorvetteGT2 and Tenacious D

Seriously. Does a request to stop the 'vs.' comparisons, stop the arguing and get the thread back on topic not carry enough of an implication that its time to stop and move on for you?

If it doesn't, the next time I remind either of you it will be with a 10 point infraction and a three day holiday.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Just saw one of Kaz's more recent comments on the sounds getting updated via patches.

“There’s a good possibility that we might do this.”

He just continues to inspire confidence.

 

[Foxiol]

If they can make it to the "final game" or release, the "rage levels" in GTPlanet can go down up to 70%...it would be like throwing an iceberg to our heads. lol

That includes myself of course.

 

[avens]

^It depends really. If the patch sound is live on release and it's not up to par then rage levels are gonna be at the very highest ever.


edit: Actually “There’s a good possibility that we might do this" sounds like Kaz believes the higher chances are they are gonna be late instead of in time.

 

[LeMansAid]

Just saw one of Kaz's more recent comments on the sounds getting updated via patches.

“There’s a good possibility that we might do this.”

He just continues to inspire confidence.

I don't mind that so much. It's just that it's also a further suggestion that they are fixated on an ultimate goal, with possibly very little focus on a significant improvement for the release version.

 

[tpark103]

Yeah I want mine sound to sound as if I had two 15" subwoofers in the trunk and a 1000 watt amp boosting them. Oh wait a minute I need a better TV and surround sound for that. Never mind my sound is just find.

New thread: PD give me a better TV and surround sound.

 

[Scaff]

Yeah I want mine sound to sound as if I had two 15" subwoofers in the trunk and a 1000 watt amp boosting them. Oh wait a minute I need a better TV and surround sound for that. Never mind my sound is just find.

New thread: PD give me a better TV and surround sound.

It makes a difference, but not enough of one (yet).

 

[Fgame]

Speaking of sound as a sense and as the OP says of its importance and "integral" richness to the sim experience in Gran Turismo, I thought I would share the weird dream I had last night about playing a future version of Gran Turismo.

It was an open world first person setting, experiencing it as ourselves able to walk and look around, so I guess I was wearing a VR headset of extreme quality. As I walked along with various people around me and cars up ahead I saw Kaz himself standing there in the game world, as I had just arrived I was taking everything in through all my senses, but one of the biggest sensations was the strong smell of burning rubber and running engines.

I was awed by it and told him I could smell it and was impressed, I said was it some kind of trick involving sound vibrations to trick the brain into thinking it was smelling something, he seemed embarrassed and pleased at the same time for the feedback, saying it used to be better and more detailed but had to reduce the effect for tech reasons but was glad I liked the sensation. It was like the whole air around me was atmospherically scented with cars. But it was based on sound waves ( I have no idea if that is scientifically possible, at least now)

Obviously the graphics were top class, so much so you didn't think of them as graphics but just real, it was bright and sunny at the track side complex and I walked around a bit, the next major thing was the touch, I knelt down to stroke the tarmac and I could feel its sharp grainy surface right on the top layer, it was like pins against my finger tips (which it might have been as I guess I must have been wearing some VR gloves) I went to the nearest building and beside the door could feel the roughness of the brick walls. Then I tried to open a door into it but it was locked, and due to the amazing level of sounds you could tell it was locked, how strong the door was, the stiffness of it and the door surrounds, just from the noise it made. Was incredible.

All this I experienced and the dream ended before I even got close to a car let alone drive one..lol. But I was there playing the Gran Turismo, who knows what number, maybe GT 9 or 10?
So I'm feeling there is long term scope for improvements in gaming using what ever tech we have in the future, and it will be awesome. And Kaz, as long as he is able will try his best to make use of it.

 

[R.S]

Interesting dream LOL.

but one of the biggest sensations was the strong smell of burning rubber and running engines.

I was awed by it and told him I could smell it and was impressed, I said was it some kind of trick involving sound vibrations to trick the brain into thinking it was smelling something, he seemed embarrassed and pleased at the same time for the feedback, saying it used to be better and more detailed but had to reduce the effect for tech reasons but was glad I liked the sensation. It was like the whole air around me was atmospherically scented with cars. But it was based on sound waves ( I have no idea if that is scientifically possible, at least now)

Absolutely. It's about association for example a movie with high quality environment props, camera, lighting and sound may show an old book and turning pages - many people smell the old paper, or at least remember the smell.

Some people are quite sensitive to it, myself I can smell dust in a scene, carpets, the dirt on the ground (the dry dirt smells different to the rich soil) sometimes even people in a scene portray a particular smell (for example they might smell old, or smell like something in their clothes/house), it really feels like the scent is real but in the end just imaginary.

I think if you could see petrol fumes, petrol pump handle, exhaust smoke, cars, etc and hear running engines people might start smelling petrol.


All of the media recording and scene construction needs to be high quality and believable to achieve this.

With good quality media and having the viewer believe the scene can also trigger other physical sensations, like falling, it feels like your stomach lifts up, but of course it doesn't. Imagine what that 'jump' at Nurburgring or the corkscrew feels like .

 

[Gotbeefboy564]

All I want for the sounds is better turbo and supercharger whine sounds, the basic sounds should get worked on but I haven't heard anything about turbo and superchargers getting worked on.

 

[MeanElf]

...but I haven't heard anything about turbo and superchargers getting worked on.

I think the whole sound package is being workd on, as it wasn't mentioned specifically that just the exhaust or engine sounds were where the attention will be focused.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

You mean , "Is there a car game on PS3 with worse sounds than GT5"?...lol.

When you think about it, GT is the only series on PS that is marketed as a "simulator". It has the biggest development budget of any car game. It's sounds should blow away the rest of the games on PS and yet we are constantly asking ourselves to compare arcade and smash em' up games to GT sound and GT is now failing most or all of those comparisons. That's bass ackwards to me...

I have to agree.

Recently I went back and fired up GT5, after a very long hiatus.
(v 2.02 or 2.04 when I played last)

The first thing that struck me, was how horrible the sounds of some of the cars were.

I don't recall ever playing any other racing/car game in last few years and having that impression.

 

[The_Rpg_Moogle]

I have to agree.

Recently I went back and fired up GT5, after a very long hiatus.
(v 2.02 or 2.04 when I played last)

The first thing that struck me, was how horrible the sounds of some of the cars were.

I don't recall ever playing any other racing/car game in last few years and having that impression.

I would just like a throatier sound, that's all. In order to do that, Kaz needs to:

 

[Eager Snake]

I think that no one is expecting things to change in a short period of time, which is a shame sadly...
The thing that bothers me the most is that, for the first time, I have my serious doubts about the game.
I love GT, always did, the memories I got from the whole series are amazing, thrilling... buuuuut, I can't help but to see GT5, and have that... at sounds.
Never happened to me before, even at the very launch of 5, but I don't know.
I will eventually buy the game, that's for sure, but I think that this time I'm going to wait until they update the samples...
Seeing the new trailer makes me

 

[tpark103]

Has anyone that's still posting in here heard any of the new videos that have been posted? The GT6 videos that have been in here lately have had dramatically different engine sounds. The difference obvious and its clear that the issue has been addressed but, on what scale remains to be seen. With the enormous amount of vehicles in GT I would the that would be quite the task recreating each and everyone.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Has anyone that's still posting in here heard any of the new videos that have been posted? The GT6 videos that have been in here lately have had dramatically different engine sounds. The difference obvious and its clear that the issue has been addressed but, on what scale remains to be seen. With the enormous amount of vehicles in GT I would the that would be quite the task recreating each and everyone.

General consensus is those are not game sounds, but dubbed afterwards from real cars.

 

[Chippy569]

tpark, can you link the specific video(s) you're referring to? The most recent one I've seen was the Bathurst announce video trailer thing, which was flagrantly overdubbed

 

[Jedi2016]

No replay videos will suffice for this, we're going to need to see actual gameplay with better sounds before we buy into it. Polyphony are notorious for using pre-recorded engine sounds in their trailers that sound nothing like the final game. They've been doing this since GT1.