Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

[mister dog]

For me PD is just being weird, they have so much experience and budget that surely they could make good sounds... But they don't and that makes me think that they're either deaf or simply don't care.

I just can't understand it, they must notice it themselves when they play their own game, so the deaf part can't be the case, they simply don't care i fear.

Just get 10 descent engine sound samples for god's sake (V6, proper V8, V8 with a turbo, V12..), rework them a bit and implement them on the 1200 cars, instead of using a library of Playstation 1 era hoover sounds game after game...

We are 2013 PD!

 

[tezster]

Aren't we getting updated sounds for GT6 in a patch/DLC?

 

[Chippy569]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, gt5/6 is limited by RAM. The entirety of the PS3 system has 256mb ram available. Given PD's dedication to visual amazement, I suspect that most of their RAM budget is consumed by textures and light maps (its not uncommon for video game audio budgets to be 10% or less of the total available ram). The amount of space left to store audio samples is very, very small. The worst RAM case will be the max number of cars on track, all using completely different samples. It comes down to just not having much space for high quality/quantity samples. When GT moves to the ps4, hopefully the sound should improve as the increase in RAM from PS3>PS4 is far, far more significant than CPU or GPU power. Then again, PD may decide to use all that extra ram for more environment textures (for example) and we'd be back at square one...

 

[wowbaggerBR]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, gt5/6 is limited by RAM. The entirety of the PS3 system has 256mb ram available. Given PD's dedication to visual amazement, I suspect that most of their RAM budget is consumed by textures and light maps (its not uncommon for video game audio budgets to be 10% or less of the total available ram). The amount of space left to store audio samples is very, very small. The worst RAM case will be the max number of cars on track, all using completely different samples. It comes down to just not having much space for high quality/quantity samples. When GT moves to the ps4, hopefully the sound should improve as the increase in RAM from PS3>PS4 is far, far more significant than CPU or GPU power. Then again, PD may decide to use all that extra ram for more environment textures (for example) and we'd be back at square one...

Ok, but and how about other games that are challenge by the same amount of RAM and still deliver better sounds?

 

[mister dog]

Ok, but and how about other games that are challenge by the same amount of RAM and still deliver better sounds?

Indeed, i think replacing those nasty samples with other ones that at least sound like the proper engine layout wouldn't take that much more size.

Those new samples don't have to be fancy or even new, just make a V8 sound like a V8 and not a hoover at least...

 

[Strittan]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, gt5/6 is limited by RAM. The entirety of the PS3 system has 256mb ram available. Given PD's dedication to visual amazement, I suspect that most of their RAM budget is consumed by textures and light maps (its not uncommon for video game audio budgets to be 10% or less of the total available ram). The amount of space left to store audio samples is very, very small. The worst RAM case will be the max number of cars on track, all using completely different samples. It comes down to just not having much space for high quality/quantity samples. When GT moves to the ps4, hopefully the sound should improve as the increase in RAM from PS3>PS4 is far, far more significant than CPU or GPU power. Then again, PD may decide to use all that extra ram for more environment textures (for example) and we'd be back at square one...

Doesn't make sense in the slightest. First off, GT5 is far from visually amazing, and secondly, I think there has been quite a big increase in RAM since PS1 already, yet the sounds are basically of the same quality.

 

[Samus]

This thread really does go round in circles. We had the RAM limitations discussions at least twice already.

 

[mister dog]

This thread really does go round in circles. We had the RAM limitations discussions at least twice already.

It's the only possible way PD can be "sort of excused" for this

Let's just admit they made a real cockup of their sound departement shall we.

 

[Earth]

I dont buy the lack of memory excuse one bit. PD has some very high quality samples running in GT5. If you listen to GT5 on a nice sound system you can tell that. And a (very) small portion of cars actually sound OK.

Its just bad management on their part. Bad sounds / standard cars, tracks etc. It just goes right along with all the inconsistencies of PD.

 

[CoolColJ]

Even 8 bit 30khz samples would be sufficient for GT6, and sound a lot better than what they have now if it doubled sound size.
It's not like your going to hear the hiss of 8 bit sounds

I mean back in the Amiga days, memory wasn't abundant, 512k etc, and 8 bit sounds were the order of the day.

Even my old 12 bit Roland S-550 sampler with it's 2MB of memory could record a lot of sounds with 12 bit 30khz sample rate - close to 30 seconds

or even mp3 compressed samples....

 

[Griffith500]

I agree with Chippy. The sounds are blatantly low-memory legacy items, inasmuch as they're the same as those used on the PS1 in some cases (higher bitrate notwithstanding).

Some samples sound OK in terms of timbre and texture, but that's often a lot to do with the nature of the car and the samples overlapping in some way. Other samples are absolutely horrendous, but every single one is far too short by today's standards. There are also issues regarding the number of samples in the rev-range (samples per octave) that "better" samples simply cannot fix - you need more samples per car, which is more memory.


The memory limitation is self-imposed, in a way, and the main reason for that is likely to be the Premium cars - i.e. the general focus on graphics. Now we have adaptive tessellation, the meshes (and the meshes alone, not textures etc.) will take up roughly half the memory they did before (but the vertex processing is more intensive now to partially balance that). That's good news all around, regardless, but I expect it'll be used first somewhere else in the graphics (higher res buffers, maybe) before the sounds.

Besides, we still don't know how the new sound generation works, and there are several methods that can get nicer results using the same or less memory, but more processing power. But processing power is really just short lived memory, and memory is effectively "cached" processing power - at least in terms of trade-offs and resource balancing.

You can still get nicer / more expressive results using the same total combined memory / processing already used in the game, if you use something that more accurately resembles how the sounds are actually made in reality, rather than blending big static backgrounds together and thinking it makes a nice, deep, dynamic scene...
So in that sense, the RAM limitation is only really pertinent in respect of the old-fashioned approach to sound synthesis, which requires lots of large sound files to sound good.

Also, this "I can't imagine it's true, therefore it can't be true" nonsense needs to stop.

 

[Imari]

The memory limitation is self-imposed, in a way, and the main reason for that is likely to be the Premium cars - i.e. the general focus on graphics. Now we have adaptive tessellation, the meshes (and the meshes alone, not textures etc.) will take up roughly half the memory they did before (but the vertex processing is more intensive now to partially balance that). That's good news all around, regardless, but I expect it'll be used first somewhere else in the graphics (higher res buffers, maybe) before the sounds.

I agree. I think the problem is not that they couldn't make the game sound better, they certainly could. But given the resources to do so, be it RAM or whatever, they seem inclined to spend it on pretty graphics rather than sounds.

With that mentality driving things, I wouldn't expect much to change. Unless they can get this radically different generation system to work, they appear to be simply unwilling to sacrifice graphical prowess for sounds. And the limited resources means that it's simply not possible to have both, there's got to be some concession somewhere.

I think it sucks, but we're fighting against a PD design philosophy here. Until we get new hardware, not much is going to change.

 

[JTB10000]

For me PD is just being weird, they have so much experience and budget that surely they could make good sounds... But they don't and that makes me think that they're either deaf or simply don't care.

Yeah, they're too busy putting in things we don't need.

 

[GTracer98]

I just can't understand it, they must notice it themselves when they play their own game, so the deaf part can't be the case, they simply don't care i fear.

Just get 10 descent engine sound samples for god's sake (V6, proper V8, V8 with a turbo, V12..), rework them a bit and implement them on the 1200 cars, instead of using a library of Playstation 1 era hoover sounds game after game...

We are 2013 PD!

Well, I'm kidding about them being deaf... But they do seem to have some hearing problems, as Kaz said: "The sounds are too good!"

 

[vk56dehan]

This issue simply boggles my mind man. In this day and age, with the tech at hand, how can this be an issue. I really don't know what to say. We all know they know how to do it properly....there are a handful of good examples. Is this just poor management that results in lost time? Or they simply care more about other more trivial aspects? I think a reduction of the car count would be much more manageable for them....

 

[Magic Ayrton]

The DeltaWing isn't the greatest sounding car in real life either....at least in onboards I've seen...

... But it still sounds a lot better than GT5 and that's from fairly poor camera footage.

This issue simply boggles my mind man. In this day and age, with the tech at hand, how can this be an issue. I really don't know what to say. We all know they know how to do it properly....there are a handful of good examples. Is this just poor management that results in lost time? Or they simply care more about other more trivial aspects? I think a reduction of the car count would be much more manageable for them....

Yes, I would rather have no rear seats in cars than poor sounds.

Awesome! The Game is spot on!

You are joking of course.

 

[Griffith500]

Well, I'm kidding about them being deaf... But they do seem to have some hearing problems, as Kaz said: "The sounds are too good!"

He said the same of the graphics / aesthetics in GT5P. Then we got weather and day night etc. in GT5. Kaz is never to be taken literally, because he normally only speaks in tangents when asked about where the game is heading - he holds all the cards, you see, and that makes it easy for him to tease us a little bit. I quite like that, but I have no investment aside from perhaps nostalgia.

EDIT: here's the article about the graphics.

 

[warp9engage]

Most likely this was already posted before but, if not, I'll just leave this here as a reference of the sound quality I expect in the update.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45439858/ac_wip_quiz2.mp3

BMW Z4 GT3

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Aren't we getting updated sounds for GT6 in a patch/DLC?

Yeah, does the seem right to you?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

@Magic Ayrton - I've just merged your triple post together. Instead of making three individual posts, please hit Reply to each post before responding; you'll find they'll all add up in order down in the reply box 👍

 

[tezster]

Yeah, does the seem right to you?

As opposed to what? They either don't address it at all, or delay the game to get it onto the disc... given the choices, I opt for the patch.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

As opposed to what? They either don't address it at all, or delay the game to get it onto the disc... given the choices, I opt for the patch.

I'd rather they delay to be honest, or not have made such an optimistic time frame for game release knowing that if they did so, they'd have to do patchwork again like GT5 and risk glitches and other issues that would require more. If you were around two years ago actively there was a diminishing return thread talking about how GT5 patches seemed to equally fix and cause more issues. Obviously this is a worry.

 

[PepeMickey]

Yes, they would also be able to work faster by delaying the game instead of releasing half assed patches, this is more emotional than factual but I believe that if the game is released at the current state (latest demo builds we've seen so far) then it's done, all this ''we'll patch this and that later'' is just PR ********, Kaz and the team, they don't seem to care, they know for sure that they won't patch the sounds later down the road but it would look bad to be honest about it so they came up with this excuse.

So no, they need for once to finish the game and then release it because if we keep buying unfinished games, they get the wrong message and they'll continue making the same promises over and over again but never really do anything about it.

 

[Griffith500]

@PepeMickey

In your case, the solution is simple: don't buy it until it's where you want it to be. If it never gets there, you save money. If it does, great. If it's there at release (unlikely given what you've said), even better.

PD aren't out to slight you personally, and I'd be surprised if they have outright lied about patching etc. Maybe they'll change their mind, or things change some other way, but that's different in principle.

However, since, to us, there's little difference in the sense that "we get nothing" either way (assuming we do "get nothing" in the end), it's best not to get worked up about it in the first place. That is, unless the stressing / venting cycle is therapeutic for you, in which case you'd be better finding a quiet room so as not to disturb the rest of us!

 

[Crumpet]

The sounds really aren't that bad. There is room for improvement especially in the high revs and gear changes, it all feels rather linear and just needs a kick. Cars like the 458 and LP640 sound pretty good in their stock form, but I'd like some improvements in cars like the F40, I already love taking that thing around the Nurburgring, but its too quiet!

 

[MXH]

@PepeMickey I agree with Griffith and suggest that you do the same, if you haven't already made up your mind that is. I myself have decided not to buy GT6 until it is where I want it to be (sound wise). If that never happens, then so be it. Stick to your guns and vote with your wallet.

 

[Lawndart]

I cringe to suggest this, and many sounds are just helpless... But while we are waiting for an overhaul PD could simply resample all exhaust with more base, put it in the first person view, and tone down the mechanical engine sound.

Knowing PD, the sounds are from where ever the camera is placed and as we are using bumper can a lot, we hear the engine.. But even the cockpit is biased to the engine and transmission.

In real life I'm def from exhaust and though I can hear the other parts they don't register like the exhaust. Hearing is a big part of racing to validate what you are feeling... Being on the noise!

On that note (no pun) give us a proper hood cam! It's the only perspective correct view if you're sitting in a chassis with wheel... (Minus DTM) But that's for another thread.

 

[BURIAL]

I agree. I think the problem is not that they couldn't make the game sound better, they certainly could. But given the resources to do so, be it RAM or whatever, they seem inclined to spend it on pretty graphics rather than sounds.

With that mentality driving things, I wouldn't expect much to change. Unless they can get this radically different generation system to work, they appear to be simply unwilling to sacrifice graphical prowess for sounds. And the limited resources means that it's simply not possible to have both, there's got to be some concession somewhere.

I think it sucks, but we're fighting against a PD design philosophy here. Until we get new hardware, not much is going to change.

Just a fun fact RAM has nothing to do with the quality of samples being preloaded, as long as they use the same sample rate and compression there is no difference other than the fact that PD seems to be utterly incompetent when it comes to recording and synthesizing them.

 

[Imari]

Just a fun fact RAM has nothing to do with the quality of samples being preloaded, as long as they use the same sample rate and compression there is no difference other than the fact that PD seems to be utterly incompetent when it comes to recording and synthesizing them.

You're saying that a high quality sample and a low quality sample are the same size? I wouldn't know about that, but I know that a high quality MP3 and a low quality MP3 are not the same size. Could you explain why it's different for samples?

And what certainly changes is the amount of samples required to build the rev range. Chippy posted a good explanation a few pages back of what it sounds like when a car uses a lot of samples to build a rev range versus only a few or one.

Six samples takes six times the storage that one does. Even I know that.

 

[BURIAL]

You're saying that a high quality sample and a low quality sample are the same size? I wouldn't know about that, but I know that a high quality MP3 and a low quality MP3 are not the same size. Could you explain why it's different for samples?

And what certainly changes is the amount of samples required to build the rev range. Chippy posted a good explanation a few pages back of what it sounds like when a car uses a lot of samples to build a rev range versus only a few or one.

Six samples takes six times the storage that one does. Even I know that.

because it's not the bitrate or over-compression that's the problem, it's the actual source material...record an out of tune guitar both at 128kbps and uncompressed, it still sounds like an untuned guitar. (not very good)