Glickenhaus Says Its Cars Won't Appear in Gran Turismo Unless Sony Pays "a Fair Royalty"

[PoSM]

Look at the exposure he's just got in a couple days. and didn't have to be put in the game.

Haha yeah, even bad publicity is better than no publicity although I give this discussion about a week whereas Gran Turismo has been around for decades with no signs of stopping!

There will always be negotiations, and both sides will be bringing something to the table, what I was trying to say earlier was that for certain tier manufacturers, Honda, Toyota, Subaru, Ford, the everyday car brands, you would think, make similar deals, with maybe specific deals for specific cars, the Ford or the Toyota Le Mans cars. The higher level brands would probably have different deals, the Ferrari, Porsche, Pagani, and probably deals again for specific cars. Hyundai will probably not get the same deal as Ferrari. The manufacturers probably have a good idea of the deals other companies get, and will negotiate with that knowledge. Glickenhaus may be coming into negotiations with an idea of what they are worth based on what other brands are getting, and it may be who they consider themselves on a level with that may be the problem. Maybe they just want a certain amount regardless of whatever else anyone else gets. How those talks go determines what the final result is, in this case, up to now, no deal.

Like I said earlier, I wouldn't know one of their cars if I tripped over it, and so would not miss them in GT7. The only reason you tell people you're not in a game is to have a dig at the game maker, and get some publicity in the process. I don't remember it, but did Porsche ever say why they were not in earlier GT games!

If I recall correctly Porsche had an exclusivity deal with EA that prevented them licensing their cars to other developers.

What I find baffling most about this case is that a lot of SCG's efforts also go into running their race team which is an expensive endeavour that relies heavily on sponsorship. Now endurance racing has a dedicated fan base but it's tiny compared to Gran Turismos' with very limited availability for people to watch races which only occur a handful of times a year. So, if you factor in the time a race car (or more importantly, it's livery) spends on screen in either media then the difference in potential exposure is massive!

If I were an SCG Racing sponsor I'd seriously be questioning my value for money.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I've been watching the Tour De France and am excited to see that McLaren are sponsoring a team this year. Now I'll never be able to afford a P1 or even a 650S* but 95 quid for a cycling jersey from the McLaren store? Yeah, I can stretch to that.

That's a deal that cost Mclaren to get their logo on the Jersey. Whether or not Mclaren receive any royalties for that I don't know, but you'd have to wonder if it's a net gain for them considering the potential cost of sponsorship.

FWIW I wanted to get an SCG T-Shirt already since I'll be supporting them in the NLS/N24 and WEC, but I don't like the designs yet so I've not bothered.

 

[PoSM]

That's a deal that cost Mclaren to get their logo on the Jersey. Whether or not Mclaren receive any royalties for that I don't know, but you'd have to wonder if it's a net gain for them considering the potential cost of sponsorship.

FWIW I wanted to get an SCG T-Shirt already since I'll be supporting them in the NLS/N24 and WEC, but I don't like the designs yet so I've not bothered.

It (and a whole host of other Bahrain McLaren trinkets) are being sold through the McLaren store so they'll be making something out of it. Probably not as much as what they've outlaid for buying half the team name but it's all part of their global marketing budget. They don't just build cars these days after all.
.
In SCG's case the exposure for them by letting PD build virtual versions of their cars wouldn't have cost them a penny. At a base level they could have then used that extra exposure to sell more merch and provide a better investment for their own racing sponsors. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth!

 

[GRT_MattM]

how does he even know that nobody cares about GT Sport when quite frankly a very many cared and still do and will care when GT7 arrives.

 

[05XR8]

how does he even know that nobody cares about GT Sport when quite frankly a very many cared and still do and will care when GT7 arrives.

He said his customers. He probably doesn't know about the 10yo future customer, that when they grow older, will have the funds to buy one his cars.

Plus, I believe Jim knows the value of the game. Do Toyota, Mazda and Porsche get discounts from being partners?

Is there a reason why we don't see as many Mazdas and Nissans as we do other brands? What of Ferrari? They've got the second most cars after Toyota. What kind of deal do they have? I'm sure Ferrari ain't cheap.
I don't know what a fair deal is, in having one's car modelled.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Something something... no passion, something something....

 

[Tornado]

Look at the exposure RUF, Pagani, Gillet, Hommel, Mines and Pescarolo got. If it wasn't for their inclusion in Gran Turismo, millions of people would still be unaware of them today.

Hommel and Pescarolo, huh?

Hommel: Defunct 2003
Pescarolo: Defunct 2013

But we can look further:
TVR: Defunct 2006
Tommykaira: Defunct 2000
Venturi: Defunct 2000
Vector: Defunct 1999
Spyker: Allegedly still alive, but pretty much defunct 2014.

How much did those millions of people of awareness actually contribute beyond "a cool car to use in a game with hundreds of other cool cars?" Some of these brands were reasonably well-known before Gran Turismo (I know Venturi in particular was a darling of Top Gear in the 90s, and Vector was infamous if not terribly well-regarded even before the hostile takeover); one of them had pretty much nothing to do with automobiles in a way that would affect the overwhelming majority of GT players (unless you think there's a lot of everyday Joe relevance for companies that primarily made race cars to compete in Le Mans); one of them were bankrupt before the game they debuted in even came out.




Gillet seems to maybe still be in business, though there certainly doesn't seem to have been a flood of them on the market since 2001. Mine's seems to be doing about the same as it always has, though since its products are only available in the series' smallest market the impact of being featured is questionable. RUF has apparently gone on record as saying that the exposure helped, but considering they are selling specced up Porsches their market ebbs and flows with a much more powerful brand inherently (and Porsche has gone nowhere but up since the mid-90s). Pagani had exposure and a tangible name in the industry from the very beginning, but I'll allow that GT probably helped. Lotus certainly doesn't seem to have benefited any, being just as wayward post-Gran Turismo as they were for the decade before they were in any Gran Turismo game. Perhaps there's more to take into consideration beyond "be in GT game, get recognized as existing, succeed", and Glickenhaus doesn't see the point if there's not a financial incentive.

 

[05XR8]

Hommel and Pescarolo, huh?

Hommel: Defunct 2003
Pescarolo: Defunct 2013

But we can look further:
TVR: Defunct 2006
Tommykaira: Defunct 2000
Venturi: Defunct 2000
Vector: Defunct 1999
Spyker: Allegedly still alive, but pretty much defunct 2014.

How much did those millions of people of awareness actually contribute beyond "a cool car to use in a game with hundreds of other cool cars?" Some of these brands were reasonably well-known before Gran Turismo (I know Venturi in particular was a darling of Top Gear in the 90s, and Vector was infamous if not terribly well-regarded even before the hostile takeover); one of them had pretty much nothing to do with automobiles in a way that would affect the overwhelming majority of GT players (unless you think there's a lot of everyday Joe relevance for companies that primarily made race cars to compete in Le Mans); one of them were bankrupt before the game they debuted in even came out.




Gillet seems to maybe still be in business, though there certainly doesn't seem to have been a flood of them on the market since 2001. Mine's seems to be doing about the same as it always has, though since its products are only available in the series' smallest market the impact of being featured is questionable. RUF has apparently gone on record as saying that the exposure helped, but considering they are selling specced up Porsches their market ebbs and flows with a much more powerful brand inherently (and Porsche has gone nowhere but up since the mid-90s). Pagani had exposure and a tangible name in the industry from the very beginning, but I'll allow that GT probably helped. Lotus certainly doesn't seem to have benefited any, being just as wayward post-Gran Turismo as they were for the decade before they were in any Gran Turismo game. Perhaps there's more to take into consideration beyond "be in GT game, get recognized as existing, succeed", and Glickenhaus doesn't see the point if there's not a financial incentive.

Don't forget DeLorean.

 

[XSquareStickIt]

Something something... no passion, something something....

What's interesting is that the car in the video actually has Gran Turismo window stickers on it.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Hommel and Pescarolo, huh?

Hommel: Defunct 2003
Pescarolo: Defunct 2013

But we can look further:
TVR: Defunct 2006
Tommykaira: Defunct 2000
Venturi: Defunct 2000
Vector: Defunct 1999
Spyker: Allegedly still alive, but pretty much defunct 2014.

How much did those millions of people of awareness actually contribute beyond "a cool car to use in a game with hundreds of other cool cars?" Some of these brands were reasonably well-known before Gran Turismo (I know Venturi in particular was a darling of Top Gear in the 90s, and Vector was infamous if not terribly well-regarded even before the hostile takeover); one of them had pretty much nothing to do with automobiles in a way that would affect the overwhelming majority of GT players (unless you think there's a lot of everyday Joe relevance for companies that primarily made race cars to compete in Le Mans); one of them were bankrupt before the game they debuted in even came out.




Gillet seems to maybe still be in business, though there certainly doesn't seem to have been a flood of them on the market since 2001. Mine's seems to be doing about the same as it always has, though since its products are only available in the series' smallest market the impact of being featured is questionable. RUF has apparently gone on record as saying that the exposure helped, but considering they are selling specced up Porsches their market ebbs and flows with a much more powerful brand inherently (and Porsche has gone nowhere but up since the mid-90s). Pagani had exposure and a tangible name in the industry from the very beginning, but I'll allow that GT probably helped. Lotus certainly doesn't seem to have benefited any, being just as wayward post-Gran Turismo as they were for the decade before they were in any Gran Turismo game. Perhaps there's more to take into consideration beyond "be in GT game, get recognized as existing, succeed", and Glickenhaus doesn't see the point if there's not a financial incentive.

I guess Glickenhaus can stay in his little cave then!

 

[RACECAR]

What's interesting is that the car in the video actually has Gran Turismo window stickers on it.

Because that's the sponsor of the race (Same for Falken stickers appearing on all cars regardless of what rival tire brands they have)

 

[Northstar]

I guess Glickenhaus can stay in his little cave then!

It’s more of a green hell than a cave.

 

[ClydeYellow]

Considering this ruling from earlier this year

That ruling's a nothinburger when it comes to games like Gran Turismo, Forza and more hardcore sims. For starters, I have some serious doubts the "artistic value" argument would work for a simulator. And regardless of that, the ruling doesn't concern registered trademarks - if GTA wants to model a Civic Type R and call it a "Dinka Sugoi" that's fine, but if PDI were to feature SCG's cars they'd get slapped with a lawsuit faster than you can say "entitled film producer who likes his own Tweets".

 

[zeptrans]

This is probably the most arse about face comment in the thread. I doubt there's any passion behind the leagues of lawyers involved in licensing cars from the major OEM's at all... Jim builds cars to go racing, and takes that racing experience to build better cars. You lament the absence of Bentley, but you don't think you need an SCG?? Look at Glickenhaus's car collection, look at what he wanted to do with Ferrari and Pininfarina, look at what he's tried/trying to achieve with the SCG003, 004 and 007, look at the Boot... this is the hot blood of sports car building.. there's nothing more to the likes of Bentley racing in GT3 than the cold, black ink in the fountain pen the legal department signs things with, and no desire to go racing unless it forms a viable business case that their marketing department can synergise up their own arses.

You took it at the wrong side, the real/brand side.
I'm talking the fan side. I'm not, but his twitter appearence will not help him.

I'm not lamenting about Bentley's absence (or Lotus), but history of Bentley is a bit more important, no?

The fact is video games are one of most important media, the fact GT games is very important in racing games, the fact brand licenses are more and more expensive... Glickenhaus's twitt makes me thinking, one: he don't need to appear in GT (surely right), two: but ok if money coming well (explicite), three: racing gamers... not a priority (the result).

GT offers the window. Venturi, Vector, RUF are some exemple. Or, to be in the same brand category: Gillet, Lister, Pescarolo, etc...

But I will mention Hommell (appears in GT4 to GT6), Hommell was an automobile press boss, then open a museum with is own collection (famous one), and as he ever said, the GT appearence was just a window to a new generation of car fan to see his own brand. Where is money here... It smells more passion, no?

The different brands mentionned before, now disapeared or try to survive (RUF not, still in-game), but all gamers didn't forget them...

 

[SebiGT89]

This is easy easy.
You are a new brand, and your brand sells low volume cars.
Any kind of healthy publicity helps you to grown.
(especially when you cannot compete in the top class because you didn´t reach the minimun production number)
In this case he is being silly.
Drop the mic.
End of the topic.

 

[05XR8]

Thing is, until Lotus disappeared, not many knew about licencing being a money issue. Same with Spa.

In the case of Hommell, even if it was passion, were they undercut compared to similar brands? Did Gillett, Lister, Ginetta, Huundai get paid more?

 

[McLaren]

Hommel and Pescarolo, huh?

Hommel: Defunct 2003
Pescarolo: Defunct 2013

But we can look further:
TVR: Defunct 2006
Tommykaira: Defunct 2000
Venturi: Defunct 2000
Vector: Defunct 1999
Spyker: Allegedly still alive, but pretty much defunct 2014.

How much did those millions of people of awareness actually contribute beyond "a cool car to use in a game with hundreds of other cool cars?" Some of these brands were reasonably well-known before Gran Turismo (I know Venturi in particular was a darling of Top Gear in the 90s, and Vector was infamous if not terribly well-regarded even before the hostile takeover); one of them had pretty much nothing to do with automobiles in a way that would affect the overwhelming majority of GT players (unless you think there's a lot of everyday Joe relevance for companies that primarily made race cars to compete in Le Mans); one of them were bankrupt before the game they debuted in even came out.

But, according to some, Glickenhaus should be building his awareness on some weird gamble that someone will buy his cars 10, 15, 20 years down the line than focus on the actual people available right now.

On the topic, the first Boot was just delivered as well.
https://blog.dupontregistry.com/dea...yeOCsjeNSPAojgm8zSRgAZjtca9B6zc9Xx3gFnvfe09Us

 

[05XR8]

Bold move selling this, before putting it in a game.

 

[CTznOfTime]

Chicken and Egg issue....


Jim thinks GT needs him more than he needs us...
And vice versa...

It's like speeding down the first corner at Monza, lets see who will brake first...

IMHO, I think Jim needs us more than we need him, but obviously he doesn't see it that way...

His loss is bigger than ours...

We have nothing to lose, he does...

 

[FoRiZon]

Venturi: Defunct 2000

Correction: Venturi did declared bankruptcy in 2000, but its actually being bought by a Monégasque Businessman, leaving its bankruptcy state.

So not only it wasn't "Defunct" in the first place, its actually still active to this day primarily as a Formula E team.

They also produce several limited electric car models and acquire Voxan Motorcycle Brand after that bankruptcy state.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Jim thinks GT needs him more than he needs us...
And vice versa...

I don't think either is true. We know we don't need SCG in the game, and Glickenhaus know they don't need to be in the game.

 

[RACECAR]

While I'm not the biggest fan of his attitude, some of you guys acting like he needs GT aren't exactly being any more reasonable. Is there even remotely any data that points to this guy (Who again has Hollywood clout to him to begin with) severely needing a game to sell his cars? The fact that it's still in business despite not being in it so far says otherwise.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I think people are dramatically overestimating how important it is for a car of this level to appear in a GT game. Wide reaching free advertising for your cool car matters quite a bit less for million dollar exotics than it does for economy cars hopped up with rally car parts.




It would take an exceptionally brave developer to do that, especially if they want to sell their game outside of the American market.

Genki published Tokyo Extreme Racer Zero (and sold in the US) with a bunch of un-licensed cars that were, effectively, exactly similar looking to their real world counterparts. Not sure how they escaped any punishment for that actually.

 

[05XR8]

Glickenhaus 004C

 

[McLaren]

While I'm not the biggest fan of his attitude, some of you guys acting like he needs GT aren't exactly being any more reasonable. Is there even remotely any data that points to this guy (Who again has Hollywood clout to him to begin with) severely needing a game to sell his cars? The fact that it's still in business despite not being in it so far says otherwise.

I doubt there's a shred of such data. Chassis #004 is nearly done with testing, #005 is finishing up production. That's $11.5 million in cars without GT's "needed exposure".

 

[TonyJZX]

sponsored by McDonalds?

 

[Silver Arrows]

Genki published Tokyo Extreme Racer Zero (and sold in the US) with a bunch of un-licensed cars that were, effectively, exactly similar looking to their real world counterparts. Not sure how they escaped any punishment for that actually.

Pretty certain that it has something to do with Japanese copyright laws, or something similar. Explains also why the Super Robot Wars games essentially are able to pick and pull from pretty recognizable mecha anime that would be prohibitively expensive to license otherwise.

While I'm not the biggest fan of his attitude, some of you guys acting like he needs GT aren't exactly being any more reasonable. Is there even remotely any data that points to this guy (Who again has Hollywood clout to him to begin with) severely needing a game to sell his cars? The fact that it's still in business despite not being in it so far says otherwise.

Pretty typical inflated egos and belief that GT is still a big name in the racing space. Which, yeah, it is, but certainly isn't enough to continually defend the fact that it's pretty obvious, to me at least, that Glickenhaus sees very clearly Kaz and PD are trying to be cheap when it comes to paying licensing fees, when they obviously can afford not to be. Certainly explains why Glickenhaus went public with this spat, and probably explains why Lotus wasn't exactly keen on licensing out their vehicles, especially if they were present in the game in some form at one time.